General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is a literal cosmological comparison, where cosmology is given a level for direction from the authors. If the same cosmological construction is indicated by one author as 10D, and by another as 20D, then which one should be used? The gods live in the Sphere, it is very stupid not to scale them. Or is it not necessary to scale five-dimensional inhabitants to 5D? Seriously?

This was answered by the blog. The best way to determine things like that is consistency and coherent logic.

 

[Brahmatman]

Angels scale to their place of origin like how the gods to theirs. So the Endless is above both classes.

It turns out that God is not stronger than Morpheus? It seems strange

A “mistake” is often rare and is more purposeful than anything. There's also no official “DC Canon.” Stories work or don't work with each other especially if it's made clear within the context and setting of the story.

It turns out that the Demattheis Spectre is non-canonical for the rest of Dc, some new discoveries, right?

Or why, if he is canonical and comes out of someone else’s cosmology, then this cosmology cannot be equated to another in terms of the canonicity of the character’s appearance? Is this also some kind of personal selectivity?

 

[Tiktime]

No one is higher but what's already established to make a Cosmology can be contradicted. If what information is said to be the core of what makes a Cosmology from one author's intention then changing that makes a different stance on whatever it is. That changes the meaning and intention of the original work and the status quo is ultimately changed.

I'm neutral on the split, however, we can not just say it doesn't work at all. Plus, I recommend, if you don't believe the Split to make a thread on why. Simply asking me these things isn't going anywhere.

Well I think it can easily be done like with Marvel, where it is declared that reality is a mosaic where there is no one answer, and many contradictory truths can exist simultaneously.

 

[Brahmatman]

This was answered by the blog. The best way to determine things like that is consistency and coherent logic.

If only the authors understood what it is and knew that powerl level profiles are created based on their works

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It turns out that God is not stronger than Morpheus? It seems strange

It turns out that God is above the other gods.

It turns out that the Demattheis Spectre is non-canonical for the rest of Dc, some new discoveries, right?

Does anyone use the Dream Logic? Hal Jordan being the Spectre is the strongest link yet most stories already recall him being the Spectre.

Or why, if he is canonical and comes out of someone else’s cosmology, then this cosmology cannot be equated to another in terms of the canonicity of the character’s appearance? Is this also some kind of personal selectivity?

Appearances almost have no value on canonicity especially if the story itself is non-canon. The direction that one establishes to make the Cosmology needs to be built on some sort of core. For Matteis, it's the Dream Logic and all existence dreamed by God and that every human is God. Characters are written by multiple authors such as Spectre, Phantom Stranger, etc…does not change anything to connect Cosmology simply because they appear in a story written by a certain author.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If only the authors understood what it is and knew that powerl level profiles are created based on their works

It's almost like you answered yourself as to why the split happened. Unless, you're being sarcastic here then you answered yourself.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well I think it can easily be done like with Marvel, where it is declared that reality is a mosaic where there is no one answer, and many contradictory truths can exist simultaneously.

If it's that apparent to you then try. It's not so easy to say contradictions exist in the context of trying to connect ideas of one big Cosmology. Wish you luck on that but I doubt it goes far, if anywhere.

 

[Brahmatman]

t turns out that God is above the other gods.

Subjective contradiction, okay

Appearances almost have no value on canonicity especially if the story itself is non-canon. The direction that one establishes to make the Cosmology needs to be built on some sort of core. For Matteis, it's the Dream Logic and all existence dreamed by God and that every human is God. Characters are written by multiple authors such as Spectre, Phantom Stranger, etc…does not change anything to connect Cosmology simply because they appear in a story written by a certain author.

If a character comes from a different cosmology, then he can no longer be a character in the cosmology of a certain author by definition. There is no official split of cosmology, why then should such rhetoric have any power at all?

 

[Brahmatman]

It's almost like you answered yourself as to why the split happened. Unless, you're being sarcastic here then you answered yourself.

The split of cosmology should only take place when it is officially confirmed by the authors that their cosmology is not canonical for the rest of the universe. Authors do not write comics for the wiki

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I moving on from this part of the discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

Brahmatman, and likely Tiktime and Jolman1, it seems best if you stop spamming replies here that nobody agrees with, and that have been thoroughly responded to already. Otherwise we will likely have to ban you from this thread.

 

[Excellence616]

Dc cosmology upgrade: Revenge of the sith

Hello, I decided to make a small blog on Dc cosmology based on the Doom patrol comics Recursive painting: There is an infinite recursive artistic painting containing at each of the infinite levels the same painting, which continues the recursion to infinity. Each level of the recursive...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ramasugita11]

When is the blog revision finished? I waited too long, should I help finish the blog?

 

[Tiktime]

If it's that apparent to you then try. It's not so easy to say contradictions exist in the context of trying to connect ideas of one big Cosmology. Wish you luck on that but I doubt it goes far, if anywhere.

Considering that direct proofs are ignored here, yes, most likely no one will accept, lol

 

[Tiktime]

Brahmatman, and likely Tiktime and Jolman1, it seems best if you stop spamming replies here that nobody agrees with, and that have been thoroughly responded to already. Otherwise we will likely have to ban you from this thread.

Lol. This is Tyranny of course

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Considering that direct proofs are ignored here, yes, most likely no one will accept, lol

“Proofs” is subjective. It would be common sense by how you're saying it.

 

[Averroes1]

Brahmatman, and likely Tiktime and Jolman1, it seems best if you stop spamming replies here that nobody agrees with, and that have been thoroughly responded to already. Otherwise we will likely have to ban you from this thread.

Damn Ant cold wit it

 

[Brahmatman]

Damn Ant cold wit it

Need to be afraid

 

[Deagonx]

Grant has said a couple of times that the map is supposed to follow some Kabbalistic attributes in nature, the Kabbalah posits that God has about three aspects, or forms that it took. The Ain is the non-existence preceding God, the ain sof is God, and the ain sof aur is the infinite light of God.

Grant, I believe, did personally think of the Source as the Ain Soph Aur, the infinite light (or in this case, energy) of God. And the map does say that there is specifically three things beyond the Source wall, which Grant has called God.

Due to the Kabbalah calling these three manifestations "God", I believe Grant probably also called the Source, "the unknowable" and the Overvoid "God". Hence, why the Source was referred to as the Overvoid or the white page multiple times, it's simply synonymous with God.

I don't remember Grant ever bringing up Kabbalah in regards to his work on DC.

all of this can be fixed with Dream, unironically. Dream is proof that the entire cosmology is not a fixed entity but rather a completely fluid nature bound by belief, interpretation and perception, but we choose to believe it as an objective structure.

I don't think most people here believe it's an objective structure. It is completely fluid, but that's because authors are inconsistent and don't have a unified vision of the cosmology. We could interpret that through the lens of the cosmology being bound by belief/perception but that wouldn't IMO be justification in and of itself for any sort of composite scaling. If anything we could argue the opposite is what is most justified by that information.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Also, Grant uses Kabbalah terms wrong since God(Ein Sof) contains all three veils: Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur.

 

[Deagonx]

Also, Grant uses Kabbalah terms wrong since God(Ein Sof) contains all three veils: Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur.

Well, I'm not sure I could say he's using Kabbalah terms wrong because (till now) I have not seen him use Kabbalah terms in anything, comic or interview. Where is that from?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, I'm not sure I could say he's using Kabbalah terms wrong because (till now) I have not seen him use Kabbalah terms in anything, comic or interview. Where is that from?

He hasn't used it in the story he writes for DC other than slight mentions. It is more interviews and his own personal superstories he writes that he uses it and even then it's very brief.

 

[Averroes1]

He mentions it several times when talking about the Source and Jack Kirby.

But this scan in particular is what I am referring to:

https://media.**********.net/attachments/926868654660919356/1163846474434621440/image.png?ex=65410f7e&is=652e9a7e&hm=5920bed0be1da54adee91e9c1ba52b60e2ae8a26c3d94e26e73d607efc2498a9&=&width=955&height=465

 

[Deagonx]

He mentions it several times when talking about the Source and Jack Kirby.

I believe he only mentioned it once, saying that Jack was inspired by Kabbalah when he wrote the Source. I don't know of any other instance than that one.

But this scan in particular is what I am referring to:

https://media.**********.net/attachments/926868654660919356/1163846474434621440/image.png?ex=65410f7e&is=652e9a7e&hm=5920bed0be1da54adee91e9c1ba52b60e2ae8a26c3d94e26e73d607efc2498a9&=&width=955&height=465

I see, although this is him describing Supergods, his personal book, not anything he worked on for DC or DC's cosmology. Thank you for sharing, however.

 

[Robo432343]

it makes sense that the presence should have every single ability in dc right? just like TOAA

 

[Xearesay]

He mentions it several times when talking about the Source and Jack Kirby.

But this scan in particular is what I am referring to:

https://media.**********.net/attachments/926868654660919356/1163846474434621440/image.png?ex=65410f7e&is=652e9a7e&hm=5920bed0be1da54adee91e9c1ba52b60e2ae8a26c3d94e26e73d607efc2498a9&=&width=955&height=465

He mentions it in the comics a lot too but I don’t really think solely mentioning it is the most important part. What I find more important is that Grant seems to largely structures the cosmic scale of things around a Kabbalah system. And this makes it so you have to be familiar with the ideas he’s getting at in his stories before trying to fully understand them.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/837756690190827543/1194721405888110662/IMG_2696.png?ex=65b16204&is=659eed04&hm=34f28bd6eb31868de87e68690789342f8ac6cfbb806f2b10d7474e15b061b2a0&

 

[Deagonx]

What I find more important is that Grant seems to largely structures the cosmic scale of things around a Kabbalah system

This is sort of a misapplication of what Grant is attempting to do. Grant also explicitly described the map as being based on Buddhism as well. No one single source takes the reins in Grants comics, he weaves in basically everything he can think of in different ways, so trying to understand/examine them from a single theological source will lead you to erroneous conclusions.

"Inspired by Primum Mobile illustrations, Buddhist mandalas, as well as the work of UFO inspired Boston architect Paul Laffoley (who draws cabalistic machines)"
And then he references Buddhism again, and Superstring theory.

All of Grant's work is a melting pot of everything he's ever interacted with all at once. It's not especially helpful to fixate on any one of those inspirations as a template for interpreting his work.

I think Grant even mentioned somewhere that the map had a more obvious Kabbalah tree appearance to itself before the final product was put out.

That quote is in NHT's post, but he wasn't talking about the map. He's referring to his book, Supergods.

 

[Xearesay]

This is sort of a misapplication of what Grant is attempting to do. Grant also explicitly described the map as being based on Buddhism as well. No one single source takes the reins in Grants comics, he weaves in basically everything he can think of in different ways, so trying to understand/examine them from a single theological source will lead you to erroneous conclusions.

Huh? I’m not supporting the idea that Grants comic should be only looked at from one lens so why are you even typing this to me?

That quote is in NHT's post, but he wasn't talking about the map. He's referring to his book, Supergods.

Yeah I already realized that, hence why I edited out of my comment what you’re replying to here.

 

[Deagonx]

Huh? I’m not supporting the idea that Grants comic should be only looked at from one lens so why are you even typing this to me?

Because you described it as a "Kabbalah system" when it's equally a "buddhist system" and "superstring theory" system and many others.

 

[Xearesay]

Because you described it as a "Kabbalah system" when it's equally a "buddhist system" and "superstring theory" system and many others.

No, I said the cosmic scale was “largely structured around” a Kabbalah system, which is not the same as saying the cosmic scale is only a Kabbalah system involving nothing else, like what you’ve interpreted.

Also, I‘ve consistently expressed before how Grants stories incorporate various different beliefs and theories, so I don’t know why you’d think I’d be arguing that it’s only Kabbalah.

 

[Deagonx]

Sounds like you agree with me then, so I have no issue.

 

[Averroes1]

To acknowledge something as an "Ain Sof Aur" is to have in mind that there is an Ain, and an Ain Sof (which is mentioned in DC), I believe Grants beliefs have largely affected a lot of aspects in the cosmology, such as the aspects of God.

I don't think we should be looking at "God" as just a single character with a single tier.

Also to be clear, Grant had called the Source the ain sof aur about two times, and constantly says that his idea of the Source is supposed to respect Kirbys beliefs.

 

[Deagonx]

I believe Grants beliefs have largely affected a lot of aspects in the cosmology, such as the aspects of God.

Of course they have. It's just crucial that they were inspired by many things other than Kabbalism. He brings up Buddhism a lot more often than Kabbalah.

Also to be clear, Grant had called the Source the ain sof aur about two times, and constantly says that his idea of the Source is supposed to respect Kirbys beliefs.

He said two times that Kirby's perspective on it was rooted in Kabbalism and the Ain Soph Aur, but it was always about Kirby, not his own affirmation. I'm not sure where he's ever said his idea of the Source is supposed to "respect" Kirby's belief. I mean, I'm sure he respects Kirby a great deal, but it is doubtless that he put his own spin on things and didn't shackle himself to what Kirby thought.

I just don't understand the need to build a bridge between Morrison and Kabbalism over any of the other many inspirations he had. Especially given he never really talks about Kabbalah unless he's talking about Kirby, which suggests to me its relatively low on his list of inspirations. When Michael Julius was doing it, in his seriously disturbed way, it was out of a clear motivation, as he thought he could extrapolate useful tiering info from Kabbalism by saying the Overvoid was "based on Kabbalism" when it wasn't.

 

[Averroes1]

Well, the Source is. Thats my point

 

[Deagonx]

The Source had inspiration from Kabbalah, but that doesn't inform any canonical conclusions about the Source beyond what was actually stated in the comics.

 

[Excellence616]

DC upgrade 1A, likely H1A

Let's separate the cosmology but without reducing respect for other writers and make it logical according to the dc storyline. So at first it was just darkness, then light appeared and gave birth to creation. [here] Darkness itself is great darkness, light is the overvoid [original presence...

vsbattles.com

 

[Deagonx]

The unending attempts at upgrading the cosmology have become tiresome, have we not had more than 10 in the last 3 months? I believe we should likely create a discussion rule that cosmology revisions for DC need to be approved by staff ahead of time before posted. They are all arduously long and the people making them largely are not very easy to communicate with.

 

[Antvasima]

Damn Ant cold wit it

My apologies if I misinterpreted the situation. I just had the impression that new members had come here to our community mainly just to relentlessly spam a single issue until they got their way, which severely detracted from everything else regarding this verse, and required massive amounts of time to deal with.

 

[Antvasima]

The unending attempts at upgrading the cosmology have become tiresome, have we not had more than 10 in the last 3 months? I believe we should likely create a discussion rule that cosmology revisions for DC need to be approved by staff ahead of time before posted. They are all arduously long and the people making them largely are not very easy to communicate with.

A discussion rule might be a good idea at this point, yes. Let Elizio33 and all of his collaborators take their time to investigate proper scaling for the DC Comics cosmology in private instead.

 

[Deagonx]

These are all of the DC cosmology upgrade threads from the last nine months.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/separating-cosmologies-is-irrelevant.162576/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleed-is-5d-dc-comics.161991/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-cosmology-crisis-cosmology-part-1.162162/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-upgrade-to-h1b-l1a-1a.162214/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-upgrade-1a-likely-h1a.163368/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-cosmology-upgrade-revenge-of-the-sith.163295/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/vertigo-neil-gaiman-and-mike-carey-revision.162150/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/j-m-dematteis-cosmology-revision.161925/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/misconception-about-the-overvoid.161962/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-demateis-cosmology-and-yet-part-2.161662/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-demateis-cosmology-and-yet.161329/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-dimensions.161282/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-j-m-dematteis-cosmology-downgrade.153905/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/vertigo-comics-the-void-1-a-upgrade.156434/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-vertigo-cosmology-revision.154052/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lucifers-creation-infinite-dimension.152103/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/elaine-michael-lucifer-and-the-presence-possible-1-c-upgrade.153855/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-hands-revision.154904/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-follow-ups-earth-33-part-1.154792/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/verti...esence-is-high-1-a-lucifer-possibly-0.154153/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-follow-ups-bleedspace.154001/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/remove-transduality-from-monitor-mind-the-overvoid.153891/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-follow-up-upgrades-part-1.153794/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/williamson-dark-frontier-cosmology.152026/

Personally, I don't really have the stamina for it. Very few of these threads passed aside from the ones that were started by staff members, and I can't keep hashing out the same issues ad infinitum with members who will never agree with me and getting into long drawn out threads.