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Hi, guys in today's thread I think it came up with a genius idea that may surprise you. To clarify this will primarily only focus on J.M. DeMattheis and Carey/Gaiman lore in their work on the Cosmology. Grant/Synder's work that I have read multiple times over the years seems fine where it is.
PS: This thread will be broken into two parts: An upgrade for both or a complete revision of the Vertigo Cosmology.
For the upgraded part it's mainly due to our current info on Cosmology in this thread.
Vertigo Upgrade:
I'll start with Vertigo Cosmology because it's a lot longer.
Vertigo Revision:
If you disagree with the upgrade then I have a second suggestion. Everything will remain the same except for the Endless.
J.M. DeMattheis:
I agree with our current take on Mattheis's Cosmology but I want to revamp two characters in his verse.
PS: This thread will be broken into two parts: An upgrade for both or a complete revision of the Vertigo Cosmology.
For the upgraded part it's mainly due to our current info on Cosmology in this thread.
Vertigo Upgrade:
I'll start with Vertigo Cosmology because it's a lot longer.
When it comes to Vertigo terminology is very important due to the fact that the writing is a lot more complex and deeper than the usual mainline DC. There are two separate words I want to clarify with a Twitter post that seems to convey a difference between each wording:
Universe - The Universe in Vertigo by using the logic of Mike Carey's statement is quite simple. It's simply referring to the size of whatever reality is and there is a fundamental word to help us to direct this further that is synonymous with it.
Creation - Creation is more so talking about the entire structure while the Universe is partially talking about the inside function of Creation. This is why he refers to this as an “all-encompassing” idea when talking about Creation. So much so it's not really a Universe or a Multiverse but something that is describing the totality of everything.
Similar terms: Cosmos, Totality, The Everything
They ultimately mean the same thing but I want to simply break down the nuances because it will make sense later.
Universe - The Universe in Vertigo by using the logic of Mike Carey's statement is quite simple. It's simply referring to the size of whatever reality is and there is a fundamental word to help us to direct this further that is synonymous with it.
- Multiverse - The Multiverse is the same thing as the Universe but instead of size, it's referring to quantity. This is talking about the “structure” or “multiplicity” of the Universe: worlds, realms, and dimensions.
Creation - Creation is more so talking about the entire structure while the Universe is partially talking about the inside function of Creation. This is why he refers to this as an “all-encompassing” idea when talking about Creation. So much so it's not really a Universe or a Multiverse but something that is describing the totality of everything.
Similar terms: Cosmos, Totality, The Everything
They ultimately mean the same thing but I want to simply break down the nuances because it will make sense later.
In the Lucifer series, we get the idea that his Creation is divided by reality like Yahweh. When Elaine was flying over Creation, she flew through physical space so you can see her in the sky. However, as she enters the realm beneath the Universes we see there are realms, some finished and some unfinished by Lucifer. In all that time she said she had to travel the distance which was infinite from where she started. (Lucifer Vol.1 #69)
Now this is very important because Lucifer's Multiverse has a gate in “every world, every realm” when Lucifer bent it through space and time while reminding Michael to think of “infinity.” (Lucifer Vol.1 #20)
This is important because Lucifer said earlier that time and space are of the mind, the will. Which makes infinity a local phenomenon, what he means is when he makes infinity he makes it to same of whatever material he shapes. If he was making time and space it would be to the infinite degree because he is infinite will. (Lucifer Vol.1 #68)
This means Lucifer's Creation as a Totality not just the Universes but the realms as well is Low 1-C. Remember Lucifer Creation is the same size as Yahweh's because the Demiurgic explosion from Michael's light has been seen only once before(Yahweh's Creation). This is important because he accelerates the growth of his Creation relative to Yahweh's Creation and because Yahweh's Creation is complete it is exactly the same as Yahweh's. (Lucifer Vol.1 #16)
Now this is very important because Lucifer's Multiverse has a gate in “every world, every realm” when Lucifer bent it through space and time while reminding Michael to think of “infinity.” (Lucifer Vol.1 #20)
This is important because Lucifer said earlier that time and space are of the mind, the will. Which makes infinity a local phenomenon, what he means is when he makes infinity he makes it to same of whatever material he shapes. If he was making time and space it would be to the infinite degree because he is infinite will. (Lucifer Vol.1 #68)
This means Lucifer's Creation as a Totality not just the Universes but the realms as well is Low 1-C. Remember Lucifer Creation is the same size as Yahweh's because the Demiurgic explosion from Michael's light has been seen only once before(Yahweh's Creation). This is important because he accelerates the growth of his Creation relative to Yahweh's Creation and because Yahweh's Creation is complete it is exactly the same as Yahweh's. (Lucifer Vol.1 #16)
Yahweh's Creation is more detailed out because of the fact it has long been finished when he created his sons to finish the process of Creation making. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)
His Creation consists of the same thing as Lucifer's. However, in his Creation, we see the Endless and their realm in Yahweh’s Universe. They appear as an aspect of reality due to Yahweh’s deterministic approach to Creation making. (Lucifer Vol.1 #52)
He is the creator of Heaven and Hell two different realms functioning as opposite discectomies. One ruled by Yahweh(formerly) and one by Lucifer(formerly). Also within Creation exist the Endless who also govern their own realm within his Creation. The City of Stars is also in Yahweh’a Creation because the current version of reality is Yahweh since Overture is a prelude to Sandman.
Yahweh Creation as a Totality should be Low 1-C due to containing infinite Universes as well as realms which include the likes of Heaven, Hell, The Dreaming, and the City of Stars.
His Creation consists of the same thing as Lucifer's. However, in his Creation, we see the Endless and their realm in Yahweh’s Universe. They appear as an aspect of reality due to Yahweh’s deterministic approach to Creation making. (Lucifer Vol.1 #52)
He is the creator of Heaven and Hell two different realms functioning as opposite discectomies. One ruled by Yahweh(formerly) and one by Lucifer(formerly). Also within Creation exist the Endless who also govern their own realm within his Creation. The City of Stars is also in Yahweh’a Creation because the current version of reality is Yahweh since Overture is a prelude to Sandman.
Yahweh Creation as a Totality should be Low 1-C due to containing infinite Universes as well as realms which include the likes of Heaven, Hell, The Dreaming, and the City of Stars.
The Silver City is the home to the Host of Heaven and where the voice of God lives. It was made in the Darkness before Creation and also transcends the Universe as the residents looks down at it glistens and glitters like a child’s toy. It is not a realm because it is not technically Heaven/Paradise and it's outside Creation as from there, you can view the entirety of Creation.
It was created after Michael and Lucifer as a way to let it be home to the Angels. This is because Lucifer and Michael needed peers and a place where their actions would have context. At the center of all things is the Primum Mobile which sits in the 7th layer of Heaven and where the Throne of God is located. It is also the furthest point from the realm of Hell.
We know that the City is already accepted as Low 1-C. However, the City will remain Low 1-C because it may transcend the Universe but it does not fully transcends the entirety of Creation, it just exists outside the structure of the Multiverse but transcendent of realms like the Dreaming.
It was created after Michael and Lucifer as a way to let it be home to the Angels. This is because Lucifer and Michael needed peers and a place where their actions would have context. At the center of all things is the Primum Mobile which sits in the 7th layer of Heaven and where the Throne of God is located. It is also the furthest point from the realm of Hell.
We know that the City is already accepted as Low 1-C. However, the City will remain Low 1-C because it may transcend the Universe but it does not fully transcends the entirety of Creation, it just exists outside the structure of the Multiverse but transcendent of realms like the Dreaming.
When God first made the world he began with the Host and beginning with the Host, he created Michael and Lucifer to make Creation on his behalf. (Lucifer Vol.1 #26)
He was their first big idea and they have power that rivals his own. Being aspects of infinity that Yahweh is because breaking down infinity doesn't make it any smaller.
They will be 1-C due to transcending the entirety of Creation because well they made it. Also being above the City and rivaling Yahweh in powers as they define his unlimited power and will. Also, check this thread for more information.
He was their first big idea and they have power that rivals his own. Being aspects of infinity that Yahweh is because breaking down infinity doesn't make it any smaller.
They will be 1-C due to transcending the entirety of Creation because well they made it. Also being above the City and rivaling Yahweh in powers as they define his unlimited power and will. Also, check this thread for more information.
The Mansions of Silence is a location where rejected Universes or anything that cannot go to an afterlife. This also includes the forgotten Angels during Lucifer's rebellion in the War of Heaven sent them.
It contains part of Heaven and is located beyond it. Yahweh tells us that all of this quest is nothing to unravel a hideous truth which he had been there. These hideous memories were Creations they keep on reading being created the same way and dying unendlessly for as long as Yahweh recalls even before Lucifer and Michael. Despite everything else, he made the best when he made them, and this process before they happened for an infinite amount of time.
The Mansion should be 1-C. They contained infinite Creations that Yahweh made which are the same without the inclusion of Lucifer or Michael. So they are a Low 1-C and the Mansions contained all these Creation as well as many more with spaces to fit a lot more. If not then we can consider Low 1-C, possibly 1-C
It contains part of Heaven and is located beyond it. Yahweh tells us that all of this quest is nothing to unravel a hideous truth which he had been there. These hideous memories were Creations they keep on reading being created the same way and dying unendlessly for as long as Yahweh recalls even before Lucifer and Michael. Despite everything else, he made the best when he made them, and this process before they happened for an infinite amount of time.
The Mansion should be 1-C. They contained infinite Creations that Yahweh made which are the same without the inclusion of Lucifer or Michael. So they are a Low 1-C and the Mansions contained all these Creation as well as many more with spaces to fit a lot more. If not then we can consider Low 1-C, possibly 1-C
The fathers of all the angels and the Lord of Host. He is the God of Creation and the Covenant (Lucifer Vol.1 #42) and created the beginning.
- Yahweh is the manifest face that mankind has fashioned from their collective beliefs and dreams, which is why Yahweh said he was fashioned by external forces. God is eternal and formless as the boundless voidand acts through many aspects like The Voice or Yahweh.
- The power of dreams and beliefs changes the world in a timeless way — from the very beginning to the end, so when humanity's collective beliefs and dreams gave a face to God (Yahweh), time history changed so that Yahweh was always the creator of the world.
Before all versions of Creation was an infinite nothing was ever infinite and eternal like that of God. This place has is beyond time and a portion of it where there is no time is beyond all dimensionality and infinite Creation cannot fill up that space
The Void/Yahweh True Form should be 1-C because a small portion of it can fit the Mansions and an infinite amount of Creation alongside the boundless Night and the endless Time. This is just a small portion of the infinite beyond all event horizons, Archangels, and the endless stacking of spatiotemporal dimensions.
Vertigo Revision:
If you disagree with the upgrade then I have a second suggestion. Everything will remain the same except for the Endless.
None of the Endless transcends their own realm either. They were created as the Endless came. For example, Dream is the Dreaming and vice versa, so he cannot transcend his own self he only shaped the Dreaming and his own Kingdom. (Sandman Vol.2 #2)
We know that Creation contains the Endless realm. However, the Endless realms do not transcend it as they are contained in what we have as a 2-A structure. This means they should still be 2-A or just Low 1-C due to their realms being rated Low 1-C right now. We should have two keys and for their “true extent” they should be 1-C
We know that Creation contains the Endless realm. However, the Endless realms do not transcend it as they are contained in what we have as a 2-A structure. This means they should still be 2-A or just Low 1-C due to their realms being rated Low 1-C right now. We should have two keys and for their “true extent” they should be 1-C
J.M. DeMattheis:
I agree with our current take on Mattheis's Cosmology but I want to revamp two characters in his verse.
Pralaya is the Sea of Brahma the infinite Nothingness before everything were to come from the Creator. In the end, even the Creator hirself will return to the Ocean of Nothing that once was everything. Beyond Creation which includes Heaven, Hell, and the Collective Unconscious even the Sea of Love that contains it all began from this bigger Ocean. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #20)
An aspect of Pralaya at the Heart of Cronus collapsed the entire timestream. Even engulf all of Creation from every direction until there was nothing but the Void. (Justice League Vol.1 #40)
All things even the fire of love that busted into unity dissolved in duality to birth all things from Order and Chaos will return to where it all began. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #3)
Here is the key I recommend:
Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Her physical avatar swallowed the five-dimensional Realm of Now and destroyed all directions of time and space throughout the Multiverse) | Complex Multiverse level(Exists far beyond Creation as the personification of the Sea of Brahma, the primordial void from which the Multiverse emerged and to which all Creation will eventually return. Precedes and can supposedly absorb the Creator, an aspect of God)
Keys: Avatar | True Form
Footnotes:
An aspect of Pralaya at the Heart of Cronus collapsed the entire timestream. Even engulf all of Creation from every direction until there was nothing but the Void. (Justice League Vol.1 #40)
All things even the fire of love that busted into unity dissolved in duality to birth all things from Order and Chaos will return to where it all began. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #3)
Here is the key I recommend:
Attack Potency: Low Complex Multiverse level (Her physical avatar swallowed the five-dimensional Realm of Now and destroyed all directions of time and space throughout the Multiverse) | Complex Multiverse level(Exists far beyond Creation as the personification of the Sea of Brahma, the primordial void from which the Multiverse emerged and to which all Creation will eventually return. Precedes and can supposedly absorb the Creator, an aspect of God)
Keys: Avatar | True Form
Footnotes:
- It has been said that Pralaya is God's Unconscious, but "God's Unconscious" is related to be one of the aspects of God because the function of Pralaya is the dissolution of creation into darkness when God decides that it is time to return to an unconscious state, hence why Pralaya's was “restricted” until the time of the Sleep of Brahma (Mahapralaya), which is more explicit through 1988's Doctor Fate, in which DeMatteis portrays God as the one who defined Creation and Mahapralaya.
- Pralaya does not precede God but an aspect of it called the Creator because God itself is the one who defined Mahapralaya and everything is part of the Dream of God.
This entity was created to be the ultimate God of DC Comics. In Mattheis's own words, it is how we get and see this all-powerful God that is within and beyond all things.
This very God that all things come from including the Void/Pralaya is the Oneness beyond even the Mahapralaya and where all things will return to.
Beyond all dualities including Light and Darkness were be on from it. From the very love of it burst into duality splitting into all of Creation as a facet of God’s imagination. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #6)
All things are Creation is he and he is us. We define everything in our journey of self-indication to become one in love with him. All Creators including the one that Pralaya would absorb are part of him even the very Sea of Brahma is part of him. They all are merely part of his dream. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #20)
Here is the key:
Complex Multiverse level (Exists far beyond the Mahapralaya and defined her, being the eternal background essence that unites everything and from which all things originated through its “Ocean of Love.” All gods are thoughts existing inside its mind, all the immeasurably-layered creation is part of its dream)
Footnotes:
This very God that all things come from including the Void/Pralaya is the Oneness beyond even the Mahapralaya and where all things will return to.
Beyond all dualities including Light and Darkness were be on from it. From the very love of it burst into duality splitting into all of Creation as a facet of God’s imagination. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #6)
All things are Creation is he and he is us. We define everything in our journey of self-indication to become one in love with him. All Creators including the one that Pralaya would absorb are part of him even the very Sea of Brahma is part of him. They all are merely part of his dream. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #20)
Here is the key:
Complex Multiverse level (Exists far beyond the Mahapralaya and defined her, being the eternal background essence that unites everything and from which all things originated through its “Ocean of Love.” All gods are thoughts existing inside its mind, all the immeasurably-layered creation is part of its dream)
Footnotes:
- The Divine Presence is the Supreme God of DC Comics with a capital "G" as the background essence that overlays all, The Source, The Presence, Monitor-Mind being aspects of that same whole. Everything originates from the Divine Presence, even Pralaya who is the timeless void from which the Multiverse emerged through the Oneness which splintered into Duality — light, darkness, order, chaos, and entered into a dualistic struggle which caused an explosion of Love and brought about the birth of the Multiverse.
- Do not confuse the Divine Presence with the Presence from Vertigo or Monitor-Mind The Overvoid even though they are similar in nature. Monitor-Mind was later retconned by author Joshua Williamson as the dualistic opposite of the Great Darkness called "The Light" which the Divine Presence transcends and birthed them with all notions of duality as well.
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