Vertigo Comics~The Void 1-A Upgrade

[LazyMortician]

There is no single creator in Vertigo, and there are creators before Yahweh and creations before Yahweh's creation. There will be creations and builders/creators more valuable than Yahweh's creation and himself.

In The Void, everything is infinitely layered upon itself. When we say everything here, as far as we know, there are creations in the Void and the realms, realities, dimensions and worlds in the creations.

There are QS samples between these layers. For example, while Lucifer's cosmos contains only the physical realms, in the cosmos on which Elaine flies, we see abstract realms beyond the physical realms. As said above, creations are more valuable than each other, and so are their creators.

All these innumerable qualitatively superior layers make no sense in The Void.

The Void=1-A

 

[PrinceofPein]

Let me ignore the out of context scans and just say nothing here is proves 1-A

 

[LazyMortician]

Let me ignore the out of context scans and just say nothing here is proves 1-A

Which is out-of-context browsing? How can the Void, where even countless qualitatively superior layers occupy zero place, cannot be 1-A?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I feel like this exact argument has been copy and pasted a 100 times over already

might need a discussion rule

 

[LazyMortician]

I feel like this exact argument has been copy and pasted a 100 times over already

might need a discussion rule

There's not much emphasis on it. This is always the case when it comes to DC. Even the revisions were with sloppy information. There was no full review. And tell me, is there anything contrary to 1-A in this title?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

There is no single creator in Vertigo, and there are creators before Yahweh and creations before Yahweh's creation. There will be creations and builders/creators more valuable than Yahweh's creation and himself.

They didn't say more valuable, just that they would become more than toys that simply act on their creator's will. And even if they did say more valuable, value is subjective, and is not equivalent superiority unless stated to be so.

In The Void, everything is infinitely layered upon itself. When we say everything here, as far as we know, there are creations in the Void and the realms, realities, dimensions and worlds in the creations. Let's consider the endless layering of Creations.

Sure.

There are QS samples between these layers. For example, while Lucifer's cosmos contains only the physical realms, in the cosmos on which Elaine flies, we see abstract realms beyond the physical realms. As said above, creations are more valuable than each other, and so are their creators.

That is in no way enough for qualitative superiority, simply being beyond physical realms is extremely vague.

All these innumerable qualitatively superior layers make no sense in The Void.

This just states that creation is nothing in comparison to the void, which would be a single layer of qualitative superiority at best.

 

[LazyMortician]

They didn't say more valuable, just that they would become more than toys that simply act on their creator's will. And even if they did say more valuable, value is subjective, and is not equivalent superiority unless stated to be so.

It's obvious that he says more valuable, but I'm not saying its a QS. This is an additional expression.

That is in no way enough for qualitative superiority, simply being beyond physical realms is extremely vague.

With a world containing only physical dimensions and metaphysical dimensions beyond physical dimensions, what uncertainty is there for QS?

This just states that creation is nothing in comparison to the void, which would be a single layer of qualitative superiority at best.

He says that everything turns into nothing, no matter what is added, in the end the filled part is zero. The void contains these innumerable layers, and for it these layers would be truly worthless.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I don’t know but we can use Creations as Aleph stacking mechanism given each Creation if they are the same has infinite dimensions. With all sets stacking, repeating, and endlessly being added then it could be the case.

 

[LazyMortician]

I don’t know but we can use Creations as Aleph stacking mechanism given each Creation if they are the same has infinite dimensions. With all sets stacking, repeating, and endlessly being added then it could be the case.

Mike should have pointed out if the phrase "endless layered" is emphasizing a dimensionality. Because, according to Peter Gross, this is not an expression in terms of dimensionality. Elaine's creation was greater than Yahweh's. While there is the paradox of better creator and creation coming, but for the Void, stacking or layering creations can be considered since every creation exists at the same time.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Mike should have pointed out if the phrase "endless layered" is emphasizing a dimensionality. Because, according to Peter Gross, this is not an expression in terms of dimensionality. Elaine's creation was greater than Yahweh's. While there is the paradox of better creator and creation coming, but for the Void, stacking or layering creations can be considered since every creation exists at the same time.

It makes sense since the Void doesn’t have dimensionality. The Creations themselves are counted for.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Also, Silkman is not saying others Creations are more valuable. All his addressing is that Yahweh is unworthy of being Creator and others would fill the role much better. Even Lucifer regards Elaine short time as a better God than him.

Not to mention she was flying over Lucifer Creation. The other angels she commanded took the gate from the inside of Yahweh Creation while she and the three grab them from the edge and started moving Creation. Elaine merged her Creation from the other two. It was more likely it was Lucifer’s Creation since centaurs’ and humans’ coexist in the physical plane.

Also, Mike Carey did state there are levels, dimensions, realms:

I see it as a statement about the STRUCTURE of a Universe - that it sub-divides into different levels, dimensions, realms.

Levels addressing planes. Since everything is infinite then infinite planes.

Dimensions in this case is referring to the multiple aspect or versions of reality. Since when Lucifer cast all the demons out they flutter across the dimensions while spreading throughout the realms and the planes.

Realms is pretty obvious like Heaven, Hell, Yggdrasil etc…

 

[LazyMortician]

Also, Mike Carey did state there are levels, dimensions, realms:

planes. Since everything is infinite then infinite planes.

Dimensions in this case is referring to the multiple aspect or versions of reality. Since when Lucifer cast all the demons out they flutter across the dimensions while spreading throughout the realms and the planes.

Realms is pretty obvious like Heaven, Hell, Yggdrasil etc…

While the qualitative superior dimensions are not infinite, there may be scales from which we can achieve 1-B. Of course, Heaven, Hell, Yggdrasil, Dreaming, MOS or other dimensions have superiority over each other.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

While the qualitative superior dimensions are not infinite, there may be scales from which we can achieve 1-B. Of course, Heaven, Hell, Yggdrasil, Dreaming, MOS or other dimensions have superiority over each other.

The dimensions in the sense do not. The planes however do. The Dreaming encompasses all reality and bound it on every side while itself is bounded on every side. Heaven overlooks the Universe as a child’s toy. Heaven is only a simple realm built by the Lilim workforce. Yggdrasil connects to both Creation’s.

By default, Vertigo should at least be 1-B.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The problem we have to take into account the dimensions base on quality and not quantity. We know each Universe is 4D+ and the entire Multiverse is 2-A. However, each qualitative superiority only increases by one per transcendence even if there are infinite dimensions.

 

[LazyMortician]

The problem we have to take into account the dimensions base on quality and not quantity. We know each Universe is 4D+ and the entire Multiverse is 2-A. However, each qualitative superiority only increases by one per transcendence even if there are infinite dimensions.

This can be clarified if they are assumed to exist as higher realities. We need to ask Mike.

 

[Murayefeskamus]

There is no single creator in Vertigo, and there are creators before Yahweh and creations before Yahweh's creation. There will be creations and builders/creators more valuable than Yahweh's creation and himself.

In The Void, everything is infinitely layered upon itself. When we say everything here, as far as we know, there are creations in the Void and the realms, realities, dimensions and worlds in the creations.

There are QS samples between these layers. For example, while Lucifer's cosmos contains only the physical realms, in the cosmos on which Elaine flies, we see abstract realms beyond the physical realms. As said above, creations are more valuable than each other, and so are their creators.

All these innumerable qualitatively superior layers make no sense in The Void.

The Void=1-A

not agree

 

[LazyMortician]

not agree

Actually, I opened this thread to see some things. This is not a very comprehensive and serious upgrade.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Let me ignore the out of context scans and just say nothing here is proves 1-A

I feel like this exact argument has been copy and pasted a 100 times over already

might need a discussion rule

I get the sentiments. I've had countless debates with DC supporters regarding cosmology stuff off-site, and I've lost count of how many times I've had to address some of these scans in particular. Let's start with this:

In The Void, everything is infinitely layered upon itself. When we say everything here, as far as we know, there are creations in the Void and the realms, realities, dimensions and worlds in the creations.

Now let's break this text down: "It is a matter of perception. There is no time here, and no space. So all things are layered on themselves endlessly, and perception twists around its own axis until it is blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition."

It is a matter of perception. There is no time here, and no space: The subject matter of this scan seems to be human/divine perception and possibly how it might be impacted by the void's timeless environment.

So all things are layered on themselves endlessly, and perception twists around its own axis until it is blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition: In a realm without time, there would be no sense of linear progression. Time is fundamental for our sense of perception and understanding of reality. Without it, experiences may be perceived simultaneously or in a non-linear fashion, creating a sense of layering. Under this framework, perception may become disoriented and spiral inward on account of the absence of past/present/future and likewise external reference points. This sense of perception would be overwhelming to the point of sensory overload.

In short, this scan isn't talking about an infinitely layered cosmological hierarchy: it's just flowery text describing how perception would work in a timeless void. As context provides, "infinitely layered" refers to the sense of infinite repetition resulting from being in a realm with no sense of linear temporal progression. The scan debunks itself; the fact that the void is described as timeless rules out the interpretation that the scan was describing infinite layers of space-time.

There are QS samples between these layers. For example, while Lucifer's cosmos contains only the physical realms, in the cosmos on which Elaine flies, we see abstract realms beyond the physical realms. As said above, creations are more valuable than each other, and so are their creators.

Your interpretation doesn't follow the actual texts. If we were to put this scan in context with the previous scan, it would at best mean that this void (which seems to encompass all of creation) has multiple realms, which exist in parallel. You'd have to take a few things out of context to conclude that the scan places some realms as qualitatively superior to others. Elaine is flying over several parallel dimensions, which are described as stories. Some of them are medieval realms, while some are hellish and abstract, hence all the talk about physical vs spiritual worlds. At some point, she says "the realms above are nothing compared to the realms beneath," but not only does this have nothing to do with qualitative superiority since it should be higher realms that view lower ones as nothing, but the statement is meant to describe how physical/human worlds are different in characteristics. "It's nothing compared to that" is a common phrase in English that denotes how different two things are, not necessarily that one thing is superior. And as you can see in context, she's indeed describing how distinct mortal worlds are from afterlives.

She makes mention of gaps between worlds, but considering how she says "it's hard to keep track of time here," as I explained above, it's once again referring to her perceptive struggle in analyzing these worlds as she's flying through all of them. To summarize, combining this scan with the last one, this void (which might be the Overvoid, I'm not sure) contains infinite worlds, which are portrayed as "stories," and exist in explicit parallel, and with no sense of time, it's hard to distinguish between worlds to the point where infinite stories overlap within the mind from the perspectives of those overlooking the void's contents.

All these innumerable qualitatively superior layers make no sense in The Void.

This scan is impressive. It states that this void contains an infinite creation, and no matter how far it's expanded, it amounts to volumetric nothingness. This confirms that the void has the requirements for an uncountably infinite gap. However, since there is no infinite hierarchy as I explained, and the worlds in question exist in parallel as opposed to being something like narrative layers, this would only amount to a single higher level of infinity.

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @PrinceofPein

What do you think about this?

 

[Alonik]

Now let's break this text down: "It is a matter of perception. There is no time here, and no space. So all things are layered on themselves endlessly, and perception twists around its own axis until it is blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition."

It is a matter of perception. There is no time here, and no space: The subject matter of this scan seems to be human/divine perception and possibly how it might be impacted by the void's timeless environment.

So all things are layered on themselves endlessly, and perception twists around its own axis until it is blinded by fullness, crippled by infinite repetition: In a realm without time, there would be no sense of linear progression. Time is fundamental for our sense of perception and understanding of reality. Without it, experiences may be perceived simultaneously or in a non-linear fashion, creating a sense of layering. Under this framework, perception may become disoriented and spiral inward on account of the absence of past/present/future and likewise external reference points. This sense of perception would be overwhelming to the point of sensory overload.

In short, this scan isn't talking about an infinitely layered cosmological hierarchy: it's just flowery text describing how perception would work in a timeless void. As context provides, "infinitely layered" refers to the sense of infinite repetition resulting from being in a realm with no sense of linear temporal progression. The scan debunks itself; the fact that the void is described as timeless rules out the interpretation that the scan was describing infinite layers of space-time.

Agreed. This scan is more about how there are infinite moments of one thing happening: The encounter of the Presence with infinite lucifers of infinite creations.

 

[Omnificence]

Agreed. This scan is more about how there are infinite moments of one thing happening: The encounter of the Presence with infinite lucifers of infinite creations.

Could it be used as additional evidence for High 1-B?

 

[Alonik]

Could it be used as additional evidence for High 1-B?

No, because there isn't a evidence about being higher dimensional perspective, it's just how anything reflects itself, therefore if a creation which is Low 1-C/1-C reflects itself infinitely, it will just be a infinite amount of 1-C, which is still the same tier.

 

[KingNanaya]

pretty sure this has been done before for varying tiers with the same argument

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Alonik.

 

[LazyMortician]

Regarding layers, Peter Gross said that there is no dimensional situation, and I agree that this statement requires additional context. You can close this topic if you wish, because it needs to be a more comprehensive upgrade. This was a situation that I wanted to shape and clarify under the title. Hypothetically 1-A though, more context is needed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then.

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.