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Overvoid appeared for the first time in 2008. What change are we talking about?
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General DC Comics Discussion Thread
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Overvoid was changed to be the light in 2022's Justice League Incarnate by Joshua Williamson.
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1. Is this officially confirmed?
2. How does this change his old description?
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Overvoid's essence is that he's a living void outside the map, that’s all.
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No longer the case
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And why?
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It's actually still the case. The Light is intangible and the scans are talking about Multiversity and the origin of the first Monitor(Monitor-Mind). The Light predates the Multiverse and is in the void of the Darkness. It still is a Void with a description instead of a non-dual omniawraness.
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Also, are you now convinced the Presence described by Matteis is the Smile as is any of his God characters?
Remember I don't equate any version of the Presence to Matteis’s. They’re different but specifically how Matteis treats it which is the same as God which appears in different forms with different stories.
Remember I don't equate any version of the Presence to Matteis’s. They’re different but specifically how Matteis treats it which is the same as God which appears in different forms with different stories.
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Why? Before Light and Darkness, there were three absolute beings, and all of them were non-dual, despite the fact that the Overvoid opposed the Source.
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What has changed? Its functions remain the same, the hierarchical position has simply changed. Although, if you understand at least a little cosmology, then any person will know that the Overvoid was already below the Unknowable in power level. In fact, Williamson did not bring anything new to cosmology, he only slightly changed its description
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Oh! I was more talking about the Overvoid being the living void containing the possibilities and contradictions than anything else. Even then, this description was more of a way of distinguishing the Overvoid from the Flaw which was described as being everything that the Overvoid is not because the Flaw represented existence unfolding stories and dualities.
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Well, in that case, that is evidently true. All I was notioning is that “Void” does not just mean infinite nothing. It's a lack of something usually with material, matter, or substance with the Overvoid still being. The infinite Void that encompasses all things is, of course, the Great Darkness in this current canon. However, I think the Presence supersedes both and contains both. I believe the Overvoid is an aspect of the Light or is it. While the Light is an aspect of the Presence.
Anyways, do you now agree Matteis deception of the Presence is the Smile as both are God?
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The utmost current canon says only a state of nothingness was at the beginning which became the Darkness as it was contrasted by the Light. Darkness is a state of existence and not a concept that exists eternally. It became sentient or awoken with consciousness after the Light opposed it.
The Multiversity Map highlights that the Source is the Overvoid and whatever “Unknowable” there is out there which most likely is a composite God that contains the Overvoid and Source.
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Yes, indeed. Plus, in Snyder's stories, Perpetua said that the Void (Overvoid) as an end, which strongly clarify that the Overvoid is not infinite.
Edit: I still believe that the Smile is something/somewhere beyond God who is the Presence. The Creator and the Presence are the same being and the Creator is preceded by the Sea of Brahma (Mahapralaya/Pralaya).
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I don't think that's intertwined but infinite in levels are different.
I don't understand why you don't get this when Matteis makes it clear. The Smile is God, not beyond. There’s nothing beyond God, he confirms this:
God is God. Both the Presence and Smile are God.
There's nothing beyond God(Smile/Presence). A Creator and the Creator are not the same. The One True Creator mentioned in Spectre #10 is beyond Brahman(Creator), it is the Parabrahman(One True Creator) when all masks are unveiled even Pralaya is transcendent by the Presence.
He transcends everyone, beyond everyone, and contains everyone. Why? The Presence is God and which excatly describes the Smile.
He says the Presence is God and beyond all. If I did as well then he is. Which I agreed with.
He even indirectly confirms the Smile is the Presence. Even suggesting the Smile is an emanation of the Presence because there's nothing beyond him. The Smile was just God within the creation of Oneness and duality. The Divine Presence is the entire conceptual entity. This is why Doctor Fate and Andrew Benett see the Smile as something they know but do not comprehend because God appeared as a Smile behind the Universe. While the Presence's true form is ineffable and cannot be comprehended unless you become him like what the Spectre did. It has no form while the Smile looks like a Smile that mind can at least see how God is when his in the Dream. Yes, a fan asked if they were the same and he said yes, nothing is beyond God/Presence and the Smile is that same entity:
The fan, so much so,asked if the Presence is beyond the Smile. Indirectly Matteis said, yes. The Smile is form, the Presence is not.
In Marvel: Into Shamballa. The Presence predates Void, Ego, Form, and Stillness like how the Divine Presence predates form, thoughts, and everyone.
Your Pralaya question is also answered. A Creator mentioned as an aspect of God is not the Creator. God transcends Pralaya who the Smile formed when God went into his dream like the Seekers story. The Presence is the full entity that everyone and everything is an aspect of.
Illusion = Pralaya and even she is contained by the Presence/God. Whom transcends Maya/Dream/Creation. He contains and surpasses the Primal Sea which is his state within Creation like the Smile.
The Presence(God) - Beyond Beyond-God(State of unconscious even God doesn't know himself and was before form and thoughts including his own): This state existed before God was aware nor awoken or even dreamed. Infinite power, knowledge, and bliss.
- The Smile Behind the Universe/Primal Ocean - Beyond God: God's state of existence within the Dream as Oneness who birth duality.
- The Magician/Avatar - God: God assuming form but still aware as his existence as God. The Voice is an aspect of God(The Dog).
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The daily yapping session.
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Are there any anti-feats against that?There is a question here about the Injustice and Infinite Frontier versions of Superman.
Antvasima
community.fandom.com
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I believe we ought to prioritize what's established within the comic rather than giving precedence to tweets. Dematteis answers seem to imply he wants to not be disturbed. Goofy, I consider you to be very knowledgeable on DC but this "The presence = Smile" argument just ain't it.
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The tweet are asking what is being said of the comics. Most of those question were answered in the comics which fans wanted a clearer answer, so they asked him.
If he views God in both comics where he writes his belief and imagination. He told a fan, he has mentioned the Presence in his Spectre story. Which was referring to #10 when Spectre merged with the Oversoul/Divine Presence to whom transcends all things. Which he told the fans to read the story where he has said the Presence is above and beyond everything. The Smile is God, the Presence is God, there’s no difference.
Doctor Fate: God appears as a Smile.
Spectre: God appears as a cosmic emptiness beyond thoughts and form.
Seekers into the Mystery: God appears as an Ocean then a Magician.
The Last One: God appears as a Nameless entity.
Trinity of Sins: God took an aspect, the Voice.
They’re all God. He only mentioned Smile behind the Universe no more than twice. The rest of the time he calls him God. He always mentioned and adhere to the Presence as God in most his conversation.
This is his “view” of the Presence being God. Not Mike Carey or the other writers of their deciption of God as Light, Yahweh, Voice, etc…
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Correct, which is why I find it strange that people are trying to hand wave his statements on how he intended God to be in his comics. Especially when we're talking about DeMatteis Cosmology, not Morrison, Gaiman, Johns or whoever you want to mention. Their statements do not matter on this site for a Cosmology they're not a part of. That's the point of the split. That's why it's called DeMatteis Cosmology.
Even the statement that people are trying to point to doesn't contradict anything. The Smile being called a "place" doesn't mean it's not God. It quite literally is called God in the very next sentence. Not to mention, the Smile itself was also called the mouth of God in issue 6. You can easily read Issue 20 of Doctor Fate and issue 10 of Spectre and see that he's referring to the same thing. Especially since the Oversoul is first mentioned in Doctor Fate comic and is carried over when Hal connects to it in Spectre Vol 4.
This is also why I don't believe this Spiritual Cosmology will turn out any good. Morrison works were screwed up and can't be combined with his older or newer stuff because they let Snyder and other authors take precedence over his works. With DeMatteis potentially qualifying for Tier 0, according to Ultima, and people trying to force all of these other works into it, it's going to either create inconsistencies or outright prevent the upgrade altogether because some other writer said something different.
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It has long been known that the Unknowable uses the Overvoid and the Source as material for creation.
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Yes. While there's some stuff from his works that still needs adding, overall staff did a wonderful job constructing his cosmology. It's also why I'm bewildered by Elizio's change of heart at the mention of the Smile being a "place". It's not like the Divine Presence wasn't called a place. In fact, it was called a cosmic emptiness beyond all voids. A place that exists beyond the threshold of our conscious limitations. This is from issue 10 of Spectre and it's already in the Divine Presence/Smile section of the cosmology blog.
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It's not known, it's assumed.
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The “place” is in reference to Meher Baba's statement that God was once everything and alone. Where he wasn't awakened or had a consciousness and was serene in the perfection of power, knowledge, and bliss.
The scan is meant to refer to them all coming back to the Smile. When they do they go to a “place”, a “God” not of duality but beyond all things and is everything. This is why when they travel through all those realms in Doctor Fate, they find the Love Sea of Soul meant to return back to God after multiple lifetimes. Spectre literally also mentions this where the Divine Presence is beyond any and all voids, where no thoughts and form are. Spectre only briefly saw what the Oversoul is because he was erased from the Dream to reach a level of non-existence beyond non-existence ie The Divine Presence/The One True Creator/God. He still had to wait until all masks were unveiled, they all had to find self-discovery for themselves.
I see Lucifer's “Yahweh” true form as being maybe equal but not the same nor equal(Not one and the same
. That God is how his being depicted in the Sandman Universe while this God specifically for Matteis.
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Morrison spoke directly about this in an interview. This was written about in his very first appearance, which does not contradict subsequent comics. Even The Darkness and The Light don't contradict him much
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The “Unknown” is literally unknown unlike the Source and the Overvoid. We can assume it's a composite Godhead but we can't just make it as if it were direct fact.
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I agree with you. Or the Unknowable mentioned in the map of the multiverse could also be an "open door" for other contributions, as Snyder did with the Graater Omniverse and the Hands, but the Unknowable could also stand for Source and Monitor-Mind.
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This is the essence of this God, following the Kabala, where Yahweh and Elohim are only its constituent parts, trying to describe its unknowability in words.
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Yahweh and Elohims’ are known beings. One of the God of Israel and the latter the council of Godhead of false idols.
They don't describe God other than their own belief system. God should be unchangeable and disconnected from any form of religious system. Like what the Presence mentioned in his conversation at the end of Lucifer suggesting he contains the Void and all things derived from him. Morrison attributes the Presence in his canon as more so a Creator entity as seen in JLA.
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This is impossible. Overvoid described that he was the only being before the emergence of the multiverse (Source)
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The Map states things that are outside. It's not saying Source = Overvoid = Unknowable.
It's saying outside the Multiverse are the Source, the Overvoid, and the Unknowable. Yes, I agree with Morrsion's view that Source = Overvoid but the Map is not trying to connect that idea but rather what's out there in the endless Void beyond the Multiverse.
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Yeah, I know that, I was just saying that the Unknowable, what the Unknowable could be.
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The name is literally “Unknowable” if we connect it to something then it beats the point of it being called “Unknowable.”
I don't think it's naming something but a title of things that aren't known by anything. So I can probably guess there are multiple beings or perhaps one unified being. However, the mystery lies in its namesake.
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Gods can be in different belief systems at the same time, it doesn't mean anything.
The Unknowable has never been described as the Presence. And the Unknowable is the God beyond the gods, which characterizes him as a creator who cannot be characterized by divine traits
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It's not the same thing. They are simply so united that they can be considered one being. It's like organs, heart and brain, they are different, but organs
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You know the context in which I refer to “God” as absolute, not a god of a belief system.
1. I never said the Presence was the Unknowable
2. The Unknowable isn’t described in the story itself. “Unknowable” has briefly been mentioned but not with enough sufficient information to make concrete date from. We have to assume it’s just something outside the Multiverse. We don’t even know if it’s God, it’s just a fitting concept that it could be that.
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Maybe? Or, as i said, the Unknowable could be an open door for other authors to add their own contributions? Either way, nothing has been confirmed. It's all just a theory at this point.
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Morrison has explicitly made it clear, at the least, that the Source and Overvoid are the same. The Unknowable status between the two is unknown.
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Yes, that’s why I said it’s mystery is left “unknown.”
