General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[VeryGoofyToddler]

P

I don’t know how to get this across to you as clear as possible, but yes the Presence is called God, however that is not the problem. The problem is that in one of the scans I posted, the Smile is directly differentiated from the Presence. I’ll write out the text from the scan and also post the scan myself to make sure you can’t miss it unless you ignore my entire comment.

“The answer doesn’t lie in the opposites… or between the opposites. The Answer lies in something that.. Transcends! Not God and Devil, Mother and Father, Order and Chaos! But a place… a God… beyond opposites! Beyond language!”

If you’re reading you can see what’s considered the heavenly God/Presence, is not what the Smile is. The Smile is something transcendent to God, it is a place or God that is literally beyond God. This is probably going to be my last comment to you on this so I hope you actually take what I’m saying into consideration and reevaluate your understanding of the verse.

First off, the Presence isn't simply “heavenly.” He uses it interchangeably with God which is the Presence. The DCU usually has an unspoken rule about God mainly being judeo-christain based hence why Heaven is such an important place. Despite this, we've seen countless versions of Heaven which includes Hinduic views on things.

The context behind the Smile is pretty simple and it has to do with Meher Baba. Doctor Fate is very heavy on Hindu views because of Matteis's journey to India and knowing of the spiritual master. Though Baba didn't speak, he's known for his “smile.” They mention him in the story many times and his the “Avatar” who is God incarnate in the coming of the age. The Smile of God is connected with the Avatar and the whole series revolves around that. This is why you never hear of the Smile ever again other than Matteis calling all his “God” entities the same thing ie The Magician, the Avatar, Divine Presence, The Creator, The Dreamer.

So because they’re pestering him that means you should do it too? Also no DeMatteis doesn’t love when you try to decipher what he says because DeMatteis doesn’t even believe there’s anything to “decipher” in the first place. In the clearest words possible he’s told you and all the others that bug him, that everyone’s interpretation is equally valid and that you should go find your own answers. The fact that you think when you’re bothering him about the comic that you’re going to uncover some universal truth means you literally haven’t understood a single thing he’s been telling you. Rather than bugging him to the point where you have to apologize, why not just, leave him alone?

I guess it's a crime to ask questions.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree that the Smile should not be equated with Presence. And just because it was called "Divine Presence" or "Divine Dreamer" (I think it was called that before) doesn't mean the two are the same. I see more the Presence as the Creator mentioned in JLD.

Except Matteis literally describes God as the Presence almost always. Smile has never been mentioned outside of Doctor Fate rather God is used as the term to describe all his “God” characters which includes the Smile.

Scenario 1: Depends on your own view of God, right? Because that's who the Presence is.

Scenario 2: I would say yes. Even the Void is part of the Presence. (Paradoxical but true).

Scenario 3: Last answer: In my view EVERYTHING is an aspect of the Presence. You may have a different answer and that's just as valid.

Scenario 4: I'd say the Void is contained within the Presence. But feel free to come up with your own interpretation. There's no right answer.

So many more examples but he never has once referred to the Smile other than writing it once for Doctor Fate. He only ever says the Presence or God. The only time he mentions a Meher Baba-inspired design is in his series “Seekers in the Mystery after Doctor Fate.

Why is this important? Well connects these dots. There was an issue in Doctor Fate and the slipcover was called the “Avatar” which refers to what Baba said after he took his vow of silence. This is why the design is made exactly like Baba and why the Avatar never speaks and why only through him can you connect God and his last dance. He confirms this question I asked about the Magician and Avatar. They literally show the tomb of Baba as the spiritual connection point for ultimate power to connect with God, who has walked the earth multiple times during the ages such as Rama, Krishna, Mohammad, Jesus, Zoroaster, etc…

He says Pralaya is an aspect of Omnipotence. He also mentions that Divine Presence premeates all levels and that he, as I mentioned earlier, surpasses everyone including Pralaya. This matches the description of the Night of Brahma storyline that the Smile transcends Mahapralaya.

So please enlighten me on how they are different. He never once mentions the Smile because God in his story is all the same: Primal Ocean, The Magician, Smile, Divine Presence, Creator.

Elizio, in case, you're wondering about what Pralaya meant. The Sleep is a process when Brahma takes his sleep, the one for the entire universe opposed to each night. This Sleep is commanded by God and will only come when he commands it. The ultimate power he has always viewed is the Presence who is God, the Smile is God which means they’re all the same.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Just to clarify my point, I believe that the Smile is something (somewhere?) transcending God in the DeMatteis cosmology while the Presence is an aspect of God that is called the Creator that Pralaya would eventually claim.

No? It's talking about God as in duality. You know God/Devil, Man/Woman, Order/Chaos. This is mentioning how this “God” has no contrast and at the same time is both things. Beyond all opposites(duality), behind all things(Smile Behind the Universe), and within all things(Oversoul).

The Presence is God. The Smile is God. There all the same beings. Creator, God, Dreamer, Soul, all of it is the same thing. It's God however you want to see him/her/it. Pralaya will consume an aspect of God, the Dreamer within finite form from the OM Point(Sea of Brahma). God literally made himself in his own dream to wake us up. He became the messenger while dreaming of the dream within the dream.

 

[Antvasima]

There is a question here about the Injustice and Infinite Frontier versions of Superman.

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

 

[Brahmatman]

Except Matteis literally describes God as the Presence almost always. Smile has never been mentioned outside of Doctor Fate rather God is used as the term to describe all his “God” characters which includes the Smile.

Scenario 1: Depends on your own view of God, right? Because that's who the Presence is.

Scenario 2: I would say yes. Even the Void is part of the Presence. (Paradoxical but true).

Scenario 3: Last answer: In my view EVERYTHING is an aspect of the Presence. You may have a different answer and that's just as valid.

Scenario 4: I'd say the Void is contained within the Presence. But feel free to come up with your own interpretation. There's no right answer.

So many more examples but he never has once referred to the Smile other than writing it once for Doctor Fate. He only ever says the Presence or God. The only time he mentions a Meher Baba-inspired design is in his series “Seekers in the Mystery after Doctor Fate.

Why is this important? Well connects these dots. There was an issue in Doctor Fate and the slipcover was called the “Avatar” which refers to what Baba said after he took his vow of silence. This is why the design is made exactly like Baba and why the Avatar never speaks and why only through him can you connect God and his last dance. He confirms this question I asked about the Magician and Avatar. They literally show the tomb of Baba as the spiritual connection point for ultimate power to connect with God, who has walked the earth multiple times during the ages such as Rama, Krishna, Mohammad, Jesus, Zoroaster, etc…

He says Pralaya is an aspect of Omnipotence. He also mentions that Divine Presence premeates all levels and that he, as I mentioned earlier, surpasses everyone including Pralaya. This matches the description of the Night of Brahma storyline that the Smile transcends Mahapralaya.

So please enlighten me on how they are different. He never once mentions the Smile because God in his story is all the same: Primal Ocean, The Magician, Smile, Divine Presence, Creator.

Elizio, in case, you're wondering about what Pralaya meant. The Sleep is a process when Brahma takes his sleep, the one for the entire universe opposed to each night. This Sleep is commanded by God and will only come when he commands it. The ultimate power he has always viewed is the Presence who is God, the Smile is God which means they’re all the same.

Morrison said that any probabilities and possibilities can exist on Overvoid, regardless of their logic and plot inconsistencies in the comics. Why not just accept it?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Morrison said that any probabilities and possibilities can exist on Overvoid, regardless of their logic and plot inconsistencies in the comics. Why not just accept it?

This has nothing to due with the argument.

 

[Elizio33]

Morrison said that any probabilities and possibilities can exist on Overvoid, regardless of their logic and plot inconsistencies in the comics. Why not just accept it?

This is not an argument that can be used to reconcile the cosmologies since the Overvoid has been retconned over the years.

 

[Brahmatman]

This is not an argument that can be used to reconcile the cosmologies since the Overvoid has been retconned over the years.

Overvoid appeared for the first time in 2008. What change are we talking about?

 

[Elizio33]

Overvoid appeared for the first time in 2008. What change are we talking about?

Overvoid was changed to be the light in 2022's Justice League Incarnate by Joshua Williamson.

 

[Brahmatman]

Overvoid was changed to be the light in 2022's Justice League Incarnate by Joshua Williamson.

1. Is this officially confirmed?
2. How does this change his old description?

 

[Jolman1]

This is not an argument that can be used to reconcile the cosmologies since the Overvoid has been retconned over the years.

Overvoid's essence is that he's a living void outside the map, that’s all.

 

[Elizio33]

Overvoid's essence is that he's a living void outside the map, that’s all.

No longer the case

 

[Jolman1]

No longer the case

And why?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

No longer the case

It's actually still the case. The Light is intangible and the scans are talking about Multiversity and the origin of the first Monitor(Monitor-Mind). The Light predates the Multiverse and is in the void of the Darkness. It still is a Void with a description instead of a non-dual omniawraness.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Also, are you now convinced the Presence described by Matteis is the Smile as is any of his God characters?

Remember I don't equate any version of the Presence to Matteis’s. They’re different but specifically how Matteis treats it which is the same as God which appears in different forms with different stories.

 

[Brahmatman]

It's actually still the case. The Light is intangible and the scans are talking about Multiversity and the origin of the first Monitor(Monitor-Mind). The Light predates the Multiverse and is in the void of the Darkness. It still is a Void with a description instead of a non-dual omniawraness.

Why? Before Light and Darkness, there were three absolute beings, and all of them were non-dual, despite the fact that the Overvoid opposed the Source.

 

[Brahmatman]

No longer the case

What has changed? Its functions remain the same, the hierarchical position has simply changed. Although, if you understand at least a little cosmology, then any person will know that the Overvoid was already below the Unknowable in power level. In fact, Williamson did not bring anything new to cosmology, he only slightly changed its description

 

[Elizio33]

It's actually still the case. The Light is intangible and the scans are talking about Multiversity and the origin of the first Monitor(Monitor-Mind). The Light predates the Multiverse and is in the void of the Darkness. It still is a Void with a description instead of a non-dual omniawraness.

Oh! I was more talking about the Overvoid being the living void containing the possibilities and contradictions than anything else. Even then, this description was more of a way of distinguishing the Overvoid from the Flaw which was described as being everything that the Overvoid is not because the Flaw represented existence unfolding stories and dualities.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Oh! I was more talking about the Overvoid being the living void containing the possibilities and contradictions than anything else. Even then, this description was more of a way of distinguishing the Overvoid from the Flaw which was described as being everything that the Overvoid is not because the Flaw represented existence unfolding stories and dualities.

Well, in that case, that is evidently true. All I was notioning is that “Void” does not just mean infinite nothing. It's a lack of something usually with material, matter, or substance with the Overvoid still being. The infinite Void that encompasses all things is, of course, the Great Darkness in this current canon. However, I think the Presence supersedes both and contains both. I believe the Overvoid is an aspect of the Light or is it. While the Light is an aspect of the Presence.

Anyways, do you now agree Matteis deception of the Presence is the Smile as both are God?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Why? Before Light and Darkness, there were three absolute beings, and all of them were non-dual, despite the fact that the Overvoid opposed the Source.

The utmost current canon says only a state of nothingness was at the beginning which became the Darkness as it was contrasted by the Light. Darkness is a state of existence and not a concept that exists eternally. It became sentient or awoken with consciousness after the Light opposed it.

The Multiversity Map highlights that the Source is the Overvoid and whatever “Unknowable” there is out there which most likely is a composite God that contains the Overvoid and Source.

 

[Elizio33]

Well, in that case, that is evidently true. All I was notioning is that “Void” does not just mean infinite nothing. It's a lack of something usually with material, matter, or substance with the Overvoid still being. The infinite Void that encompasses all things is, of course, the Great Darkness in this current canon. However, I think the Presence supersedes both and contains both. I believe the Overvoid is an aspect of the Light or is it. While the Light is an aspect of the Presence.

Anyways, do you now agree Matteis deception of the Presence is the Smile as both are God?

Yes, indeed. Plus, in Snyder's stories, Perpetua said that the Void (Overvoid) as an end, which strongly clarify that the Overvoid is not infinite.

Edit: I still believe that the Smile is something/somewhere beyond God who is the Presence. The Creator and the Presence are the same being and the Creator is preceded by the Sea of Brahma (Mahapralaya/Pralaya).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Yes, indeed. Plus, in Snyder's stories, Perpetua said that the Void (Overvoid) as an end, which strongly clarify that the Overvoid is not infinite.

I don't think that's intertwined but infinite in levels are different.

Edit: I still believe that the Smile is something/somewhere beyond God who is the Presence. The Creator and the Presence are the same being and the Creator is preceded by the Sea of Brahma (Mahapralaya/Pralaya).

I don't understand why you don't get this when Matteis makes it clear. The Smile is God, not beyond. There’s nothing beyond God, he confirms this:

God is God. Both the Presence and Smile are God.

To me, God is God, whether you call Him(Her/It) the Creator, the Divine, or the One Above All. That's the best answer I can offer.

There's nothing beyond God(Smile/Presence). A Creator and the Creator are not the same. The One True Creator mentioned in Spectre #10 is beyond Brahman(Creator), it is the Parabrahman(One True Creator) when all masks are unveiled even Pralaya is transcendent by the Presence.

Pralaya? Yes, in my view EVERYTHING is an aspect of the Presence. But that's just my view.

He transcends everyone, beyond everyone, and contains everyone. Why? The Presence is God and which excatly describes the Smile.

I always took the Presence to be God.

He says the Presence is God and beyond all. If I did as well then he is. Which I agreed with.

If, you take the Presence to be God, then it both transcends and contains everyone and everything.

He even indirectly confirms the Smile is the Presence. Even suggesting the Smile is an emanation of the Presence because there's nothing beyond him. The Smile was just God within the creation of Oneness and duality. The Divine Presence is the entire conceptual entity. This is why Doctor Fate and Andrew Benett see the Smile as something they know but do not comprehend because God appeared as a Smile behind the Universe. While the Presence's true form is ineffable and cannot be comprehended unless you become him like what the Spectre did. It has no form while the Smile looks like a Smile that mind can at least see how God is when his in the Dream. Yes, a fan asked if they were the same and he said yes, nothing is beyond God/Presence and the Smile is that same entity:

That God(Smile) is….God(Presence)

The fan, so much so,asked if the Presence is beyond the Smile. Indirectly Matteis said, yes. The Smile is form, the Presence is not.

You're asking me to define GOD? Everyone has to do that for themselves.

In Marvel: Into Shamballa. The Presence predates Void, Ego, Form, and Stillness like how the Divine Presence predates form, thoughts, and everyone.

Your Pralaya question is also answered. A Creator mentioned as an aspect of God is not the Creator. God transcends Pralaya who the Smile formed when God went into his dream like the Seekers story. The Presence is the full entity that everyone and everything is an aspect of.

In my view, EVERYTHING is an aspect of God.

Let's say there are aspects of God that return to her, but God, in purest form, is above and beyond, transcending Pralaya and all forms in the Universe. Because, in the end, all that existence(including non-existence) is God! And that's all I have to say on the subject.

Illusion = Pralaya and even she is contained by the Presence/God. Whom transcends Maya/Dream/Creation. He contains and surpasses the Primal Sea which is his state within Creation like the Smile.

And even the illusion is God.

After a certain point, it's up to you to come io with the answer that works for you. For me, in the end, it's ALL God…even illusion.

If the Presence is God Him/Herself, then no. He/She is in all and beyond all.

The Sea of Brahma is the birthplace of Creation, so it transcends Maya. Pralaya was the embodiment of the illusion, so yes, she is part of it. At least that's my point of view.

The Presence(God) - Beyond Beyond-God(State of unconscious even God doesn't know himself and was before form and thoughts including his own): This state existed before God was aware nor awoken or even dreamed. Infinite power, knowledge, and bliss.

• The Smile Behind the Universe/Primal Ocean - Beyond God: God's state of existence within the Dream as Oneness who birth duality.
  • The Magician/Avatar - God: God assuming form but still aware as his existence as God. The Voice is an aspect of God(The Dog).

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Interrupting the daily cosmology debate to plug this thread:

The daily yapping session.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

There is a question here about the Injustice and Infinite Frontier versions of Superman.

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

Are there any anti-feats against that?

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

I believe we ought to prioritize what's established within the comic rather than giving precedence to tweets. Dematteis answers seem to imply he wants to not be disturbed. Goofy, I consider you to be very knowledgeable on DC but this "The presence = Smile" argument just ain't it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I believe we ought to prioritize what's established within the comic rather than giving precedence to tweets. Dematteis answers seem to imply he wants to not be disturbed. Goofy, I consider you to be very knowledgeable on DC but this "The presence = Smile" argument just ain't it.

The tweet are asking what is being said of the comics. Most of those question were answered in the comics which fans wanted a clearer answer, so they asked him.

If he views God in both comics where he writes his belief and imagination. He told a fan, he has mentioned the Presence in his Spectre story. Which was referring to #10 when Spectre merged with the Oversoul/Divine Presence to whom transcends all things. Which he told the fans to read the story where he has said the Presence is above and beyond everything. The Smile is God, the Presence is God, there’s no difference.

Doctor Fate: God appears as a Smile.
Spectre: God appears as a cosmic emptiness beyond thoughts and form.
Seekers into the Mystery: God appears as an Ocean then a Magician.
The Last One: God appears as a Nameless entity.
Trinity of Sins: God took an aspect, the Voice.

They’re all God. He only mentioned Smile behind the Universe no more than twice. The rest of the time he calls him God. He always mentioned and adhere to the Presence as God in most his conversation.

This is his “view” of the Presence being God. Not Mike Carey or the other writers of their deciption of God as Light, Yahweh, Voice, etc…

 

[Asterotheology]

The tweet are asking what is being said of the comics. Most of those question were answered in the comics which fans wanted a clearer answer, so they asked him.

If he views God in both comics where he writes his belief and imagination. He told a fan, he has mentioned the Presence in his Spectre story. Which was referring to #10 when Spectre merged with the Oversoul/Divine Presence to whom transcends all things. Which he told the fans to read the story where he has said the Presence is above and beyond everything. The Smile is God, the Presence is God, there’s no difference.

Doctor Fate: God appears as a Smile.
Spectre: God appears as a cosmic emptiness beyond thoughts and form.
Seekers into the Mystery: God appears as an Ocean then a Magician.
The Last One: God appears as a Nameless entity.
Trinity of Sins: God took an aspect, the Voice.

They’re all God. He only mentioned Smile behind the Universe no more than twice. The rest of the time he calls him God. He always mentioned and adhere to the Presence as God in most his conversation.

This is his “view” of the Presence being God. Not Mike Carey or the other writers of their deciption of God as Light, Yahweh, Voice, etc…

Correct, which is why I find it strange that people are trying to hand wave his statements on how he intended God to be in his comics. Especially when we're talking about DeMatteis Cosmology, not Morrison, Gaiman, Johns or whoever you want to mention. Their statements do not matter on this site for a Cosmology they're not a part of. That's the point of the split. That's why it's called DeMatteis Cosmology.

Even the statement that people are trying to point to doesn't contradict anything. The Smile being called a "place" doesn't mean it's not God. It quite literally is called God in the very next sentence. Not to mention, the Smile itself was also called the mouth of God in issue 6. You can easily read Issue 20 of Doctor Fate and issue 10 of Spectre and see that he's referring to the same thing. Especially since the Oversoul is first mentioned in Doctor Fate comic and is carried over when Hal connects to it in Spectre Vol 4.

This is also why I don't believe this Spiritual Cosmology will turn out any good. Morrison works were screwed up and can't be combined with his older or newer stuff because they let Snyder and other authors take precedence over his works. With DeMatteis potentially qualifying for Tier 0, according to Ultima, and people trying to force all of these other works into it, it's going to either create inconsistencies or outright prevent the upgrade altogether because some other writer said something different.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree about that we should base DeMatteis' cosmology on DeMatteis' intentions.

 

[Brahmatman]

The Multiversity Map highlights that the Source is the Overvoid and whatever “Unknowable” there is out there which most likely is a composite God that contains the Overvoid and Source.

It has long been known that the Unknowable uses the Overvoid and the Source as material for creation.

 

[Asterotheology]

I strongly agree about that we should base DeMatteis' cosmology on DeMatteis' intentions.

Yes. While there's some stuff from his works that still needs adding, overall staff did a wonderful job constructing his cosmology. It's also why I'm bewildered by Elizio's change of heart at the mention of the Smile being a "place". It's not like the Divine Presence wasn't called a place. In fact, it was called a cosmic emptiness beyond all voids. A place that exists beyond the threshold of our conscious limitations. This is from issue 10 of Spectre and it's already in the Divine Presence/Smile section of the cosmology blog.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It has long been known that the Unknowable uses the Overvoid and the Source as material for creation.

It's not known, it's assumed.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Yes. While there's some stuff from his works that still needs adding, overall staff did a wonderful job constructing his cosmology. It's also why I'm bewildered by Elizio's change of heart at the mention of the Smile being a "place". It's not like the Divine Presence wasn't called a place. In fact, it was called a cosmic emptiness beyond all voids. A place that exists beyond the threshold of our conscious limitations. This is from issue 10 of Spectre and it's already in the Divine Presence/Smile section of the cosmology blog.

The “place” is in reference to Meher Baba's statement that God was once everything and alone. Where he wasn't awakened or had a consciousness and was serene in the perfection of power, knowledge, and bliss.

The scan is meant to refer to them all coming back to the Smile. When they do they go to a “place”, a “God” not of duality but beyond all things and is everything. This is why when they travel through all those realms in Doctor Fate, they find the Love Sea of Soul meant to return back to God after multiple lifetimes. Spectre literally also mentions this where the Divine Presence is beyond any and all voids, where no thoughts and form are. Spectre only briefly saw what the Oversoul is because he was erased from the Dream to reach a level of non-existence beyond non-existence ie The Divine Presence/The One True Creator/God. He still had to wait until all masks were unveiled, they all had to find self-discovery for themselves.

I see Lucifer's “Yahweh” true form as being maybe equal but not the same nor equal(Not one and the same . That God is how his being depicted in the Sandman Universe while this God specifically for Matteis.

 

[Brahmatman]

It's not known, it's assumed.

Morrison spoke directly about this in an interview. This was written about in his very first appearance, which does not contradict subsequent comics. Even The Darkness and The Light don't contradict him much

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Morrison spoke directly about this in an interview. This was written about in his very first appearance, which does not contradict subsequent comics. Even The Darkness and The Light don't contradict him much

The “Unknown” is literally unknown unlike the Source and the Overvoid. We can assume it's a composite Godhead but we can't just make it as if it were direct fact.

 

[Elizio33]

The “Unknown” is literally unknown unlike the Source and the Overvoid. We can assume it's a composite Godhead but we can't just make it as if it were direct fact.

I agree with you. Or the Unknowable mentioned in the map of the multiverse could also be an "open door" for other contributions, as Snyder did with the Graater Omniverse and the Hands, but the Unknowable could also stand for Source and Monitor-Mind.

 

[Brahmatman]

The “Unknown” is literally unknown unlike the Source and the Overvoid. We can assume it's a composite Godhead but we can't just make it as if it were direct fact.

This is the essence of this God, following the Kabala, where Yahweh and Elohim are only its constituent parts, trying to describe its unknowability in words.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This is the essence of this God, following the Kabala, where Yahweh and Elohim are only its constituent parts, trying to describe its unknowability in words.

Yahweh and Elohims’ are known beings. One of the God of Israel and the latter the council of Godhead of false idols.

They don't describe God other than their own belief system. God should be unchangeable and disconnected from any form of religious system. Like what the Presence mentioned in his conversation at the end of Lucifer suggesting he contains the Void and all things derived from him. Morrison attributes the Presence in his canon as more so a Creator entity as seen in JLA.

 

[Brahmatman]

I agree with you. Or the Unknowable mentioned in the map of the multiverse could also be an "open door" for other contributions, as Snyder did with the Grand Omniverse and the Hands, but the Unknowable could also stand for Source and Monitor-Mind like you said.

This is impossible. Overvoid described that he was the only being before the emergence of the multiverse (Source)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree with you. Or the Unknowable mentioned in the map of the multiverse could also be an "open door" for other contributions, as Snyder did with the Grand Omniverse and the Hands, but the Unknowable could also stand for Source and Monitor-Mind like you said.

The Map states things that are outside. It's not saying Source = Overvoid = Unknowable.

It's saying outside the Multiverse are the Source, the Overvoid, and the Unknowable. Yes, I agree with Morrsion's view that Source = Overvoid but the Map is not trying to connect that idea but rather what's out there in the endless Void beyond the Multiverse.

 

[Elizio33]

The Map states things that are outside. It's not saying Source = Overvoid = Unknowable.

It's saying outside the Multiverse are the Source, the Overvoid, and the Unknowable. Yes, I agree with Morrsion's view that Source = Overvoid but the Map is not trying to connect that idea but rather what's out there in the endless Void beyond the Multiverse.

Yeah, I know that, I was just saying that the Unknowable, what the Unknowable could be.