General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[VeryGoofyToddler]

And why?

You’ve asked something I already answered.

Matteis writes freely in most aspect take his inspiration from religion views rather than what other authors implemented other than the basic origin and powers of characters. No one writes his characters like he does nor follow the theory that Meher Baba(his spiritual teacher) did propose.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree about keeping DeMatteis' cosmology separate.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Grant has said a couple of times that the map is supposed to follow some Kabbalistic attributes in nature, the Kabbalah posits that God has about three aspects, or forms that it took. The Ain is the non-existence preceding God, the ain sof is God, and the ain sof aur is the infinite light of God.

Grant, I believe, did personally think of the Source as the Ain Soph Aur, the infinite light (or in this case, energy) of God. And the map does say that there is specifically three things beyond the Source wall, which Grant has called God.

Due to the Kabbalah calling these three manifestations "God", I believe Grant probably also called the Source, "the unknowable" and the Overvoid "God". Hence, why the Source was referred to as the Overvoid or the white page multiple times, it's simply synonymous with God.

 

[Jolman1]

You’ve asked something I already answered.

Matteis writes freely in most aspect take his inspiration from religion views rather than what other authors implemented other than the basic origin and powers of characters.

Does drawing information from religion prevent one from placing one cosmology within another? Are you serious?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Matteis writes freely in most aspect take his inspiration from religion views rather than what other authors implemented other than the basic origin and powers of characters.

Does drawing information from religion prevent one from placing one cosmology within another? Are you serious?

It creates an interpretation of how the Cosmology is defined based solely on the author intent. Any addition to contradict such notions is the reason for the split.

 

[Jolman1]

It creates an interpretation of how the Cosmology is defined based solely on the author intent.

We are talking about placing one cosmology into another, and the fact that he mainly focuses on Christianity and Hinduism is in no way relevant.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

We are talking about placing one cosmology into another, and the fact that he mainly focuses on Christianity and Hinduism is in no way relevant.

The simple premise is that. How would you put one Cosmology with another, if the information on how the Cosmology is structured is contradicted with each other. If it weren’t such a problem, then the split shouldn’t ever had happen. Due to how Matteis writes, yes, the religious view is heavily needed.

 

[Antvasima]

It is highly relevant. Creating a nonsensical patchwork just to squeeze as illogically high statistics as possible out of every character is not acceptable, and we have already had and concluded the discussion of a split cosmology over and over and over. Please stop interfering.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

all of this can be fixed with Dream, unironically. Dream is proof that the entire cosmology is not a fixed entity but rather a completely fluid nature bound by belief, interpretation and perception, but we choose to believe it as an objective structure.

 

[Ramasugita11]

It is highly relevant. Creating a nonsensical patchwork just to squeeze as illogically high statistics as possible out of every character is not acceptable, and we have already had and concluded the discussion of a split cosmology over and over and over. Please stop interfering.

No, You are wrong, I agree if cosmology is separated but it will be clearer after the blog is updated

 

[Elizio33]

Do you mean to say that The Great Darkness>God in Swamp Thing #75? If so then I disagree with that, The Great Darkness in Swamp Thing comics is precisely the fundamental entity being the opposite of The Light that determines existence where the interplay two what runs the entire cycle of creation. Even in the next few panels, it is clear that God truly encompasses both The Great Darkness and The Light.

@PrinceStories Sorry for this. But this thread has gone off the rails enough. The Great Darkness said that before light (God), the darkness was. The purpose of balancing God's light was solely to soothe the Great Darkness from its identity crisis. Although the outcome of the story resulted in the Great Darkness and God combining and seen as dualistic forces, darkness is still prior to all. Even if Allan Moore intended God to encompass the Great Darkness and the Light, How can we say that this idea is still relevant in the interpretation of the DCU by Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion and Joshua Williamson?

 

[PrinceStories]

Do you mean to say that The Great Darkness>God in Swamp Thing #75? If so then I disagree with that, The Great Darkness in Swamp Thing comics is precisely the fundamental entity being the opposite of The Light that determines existence where the interplay two what runs the entire cycle of creation. Even in the next few panels, it is clear that God truly encompasses both The Great Darkness and The Light.

@PrinceStories Sorry for this. But this thread has gone off the rails enough. The Great Darkness said that before light (God), the darkness was. The purpose of balancing God's light was solely to soothe the Great Darkness from its identity crisis. Although the outcome of the story resulted in the Great Darkness and God combining and seen as dualistic forces, darkness is still prior to all. Even if Allan Moore intended God to encompass the Great Darkness and the Light, How can we say that this idea is still relevant in the interpretation of the DCU by Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion and Joshua Williamson?

I see, I also don't want to get out off topic that thread which is muddled with current cosmology complaints.

 

[Elizio33]

I see, I also don't want to get out off topic that thread which is muddled with current cosmology complaints.

Understandable. I was just saying that we have no hard evidence that God always encompasses the Great Darkness in the writers' stories used in Crisis Cosmology, as Moore originally intended in his stories.

 

[Brahmatman]

There shouldn’t a split in the first place by your logic.

I asked for proof of the official separation of Vertigo and Dc cosmologies, as obviously there were none. I even provided evidence from the Dc guidebook that the plot of Vertigo is canon for all of Dc.

I don’t see where “all” is mentioned especially if one wasn’t shape by beliefs. The core of the Sphere runs on belief and magic which a certain God transcends especially since it was established that God’s power was used by beings beyond the Gods to create the Multiverse which eventually the Sphere pop as a result.

You know that the gods are more objective and existed long before the multiverse (physical)? The Endless are also outside the gods, but this doesn’t give them much of a qualitative difference

Except the story highlights that was not the full Source? A glimpse of what the Source entailed which was later added since the Source is the creator and precognitor of both Life and Anti-Life and is contained by it. What happen in Death of the New Gods was just both side of the aspect of the Source were separated by the three Gods of Roman, Norse, and Greek. No conherent scaling if you believed that these Gods > Source.

You don't seem to know that the Source used to be the other side of Anti-Life and didn't contain it? Moreover, the Source even had a personal enemy who intended to destroy it.

The intention isn’t to say different cosmology rather different interpretation of a cosmology.

The same place can have many different descriptions and interpretations, but this does not make the place a different cosmology.

 

[Tiktime]

The intention isn’t to say different cosmology rather different interpretation of a cosmology.

Well the point of the question doesn't change much, only in the question of why the interpretation of one is higher than the other

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I asked for proof of the official separation of Vertigo and Dc cosmologies, as obviously there were none. I even provided evidence from the Dc guidebook that the plot of Vertigo is canon for all of Dc.

You know that the gods are more objective and existed long before the multiverse (physical)? The Endless are also outside the gods, but this doesn’t give them much of a qualitative difference

No, they are much above the gods as explained by how gods function on belief and dreams which is being expressed by the Dream King himself, as he personifies said concept.

You don't seem to know that the Source used to be the other side of Anti-Life and didn't contain it? Moreover, the Source even had a personal enemy who intended to destroy it.

Who didn't win.

The same place can have many different descriptions and interpretations, but this does not make the place a different cosmology.

Except when Cosmology establishes a certain premise not meant to be contradicted. You can't talk about what I said directly and not think about the other stuff to highlights the reason why there's a split.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Well the point of the question doesn't change much, only in the question of why the interpretation of one is higher than the other

No one is higher but what's already established to make a Cosmology can be contradicted. If what information is said to be the core of what makes a Cosmology from one author's intention then changing that makes a different stance on whatever it is. That changes the meaning and intention of the original work and the status quo is ultimately changed.

I'm neutral on the split, however, we can not just say it doesn't work at all. Plus, I recommend, if you don't believe the Split to make a thread on why. Simply asking me these things isn't going anywhere.

 

[Brahmatman]

It is highly relevant. Creating a nonsensical patchwork just to squeeze as illogically high statistics as possible out of every character is not acceptable, and we have already had and concluded the discussion of a split cosmology over and over and over. Please stop interfering.

Superman, in most of his appearances, does not destroy anything more than walls or buildings. Should Superman be demoted to the level of a building?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Superman, in most of his appearances, does not destroy anything more than walls or buildings. Should Superman be demoted to the level of a building?

That's heavy false equivalence. Especially when we're talking about how Cosmology is established which works in tandem with the characters in it. We don't use the heroes to scale the Cosmology itself, we establish the Cosmology to then fit where the characters will be. So scaling the Sphere, for example, is much better than scaling the gods to scale the Sphere.

 

[Brahmatman]

No, they are much above the gods as explained by how gods function on belief and dreams which is being expressed by the Dream King himself, as he personifies said concept.

Are angels gods too?

Except when Cosmology establishes a certain premise not meant to be contradicted. You can't talk about what I said directly and not think about the other stuff to highlights the reason why there's a split.

What is this premise? A different description of something does not make it different in relation to the subsequent author who describes this place

 

[Tiktime]

It is highly relevant. Creating a nonsensical patchwork just to squeeze as illogically high statistics as possible out of every character is not acceptable, and we have already had and concluded the discussion of a split cosmology over and over and over. Please stop interfering.

By the way, if we are talking about Superman and the rules created to say that one-moment feats should not be taken into account (I hope we are talking about it) then it is meaningless as you can not measure that average between each feat, it is literally not a measurable thing, and demoting Superman to a star just because the author said "now he can not play juggler with the planets" is also a very biased position, as these words can be interpreted in different ways, such as the fact that he relative to his opponents and threats is not the same as before

Anyway, the DC Multiverse has any number of dimensions from any third author at all, and even with a split cosmology each cosmology should have from High 1-B to Low 1-A, last time this was rejected without even explaining the reason no matter how many times I asked them (There's even a "spatial dimension" clause.)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Are angels gods too?

What angels scale to Heaven and Endless other than Michael and Lucifer?

What is this premise? A different description of something does not make it different in relation to the subsequent author who describes this place

If it makes the core of what the author intended, then yes, changing that changes the status quo implemented by the original intent of the author.

 

[Brahmatman]

That's heavy false equivalence. Especially when we're talking about how Cosmology is established which works in tandem with the characters in it. We don't use the heroes to scale the Cosmology itself, we establish the Cosmology to then fit where the characters will be. So scaling the Sphere, for example, is much better than scaling the gods to scale the Sphere.

This is a literal cosmological comparison, where cosmology is given a level for direction from the authors. If the same cosmological construction is indicated by one author as 10D, and by another as 20D, then which one should be used? The gods live in the Sphere, it is very stupid not to scale them. Or is it not necessary to scale five-dimensional inhabitants to 5D? Seriously?

 

[Brahmatman]

What angels scale to Heaven and Endless other than Michael and Lucifer?

You say gods, but angels are not gods at all, what to do with them?

If it makes the core of what the author intended, then yes, changing that changes the status quo implemented by the original intent of the author.

There are many authors, not just one, and even one author can make mistakes in his works, but this will not make his work in some other universe, it is still the same canon

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

You say gods, but angels are not gods at all, what to do with them?

Angels scale to their place of origin like how the gods to theirs. So the Endless is above both classes.

There are many authors, not just one, and even one author can make mistakes in his works, but this will not make his work in some other universe, it is still the same canon

A “mistake” is often rare and is more purposeful than anything. There's also no official “DC Canon.” Stories work or don't work with each other especially if it's made clear within the context and setting of the story.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

This is a literal cosmological comparison, where cosmology is given a level for direction from the authors. If the same cosmological construction is indicated by one author as 10D, and by another as 20D, then which one should be used? The gods live in the Sphere, it is very stupid not to scale them. Or is it not necessary to scale five-dimensional inhabitants to 5D? Seriously?

This was answered by the blog. The best way to determine things like that is consistency and coherent logic.

 

[Brahmatman]

Angels scale to their place of origin like how the gods to theirs. So the Endless is above both classes.

It turns out that God is not stronger than Morpheus? It seems strange

A “mistake” is often rare and is more purposeful than anything. There's also no official “DC Canon.” Stories work or don't work with each other especially if it's made clear within the context and setting of the story.

It turns out that the Demattheis Spectre is non-canonical for the rest of Dc, some new discoveries, right?

Or why, if he is canonical and comes out of someone else’s cosmology, then this cosmology cannot be equated to another in terms of the canonicity of the character’s appearance? Is this also some kind of personal selectivity?

 

[Tiktime]

No one is higher but what's already established to make a Cosmology can be contradicted. If what information is said to be the core of what makes a Cosmology from one author's intention then changing that makes a different stance on whatever it is. That changes the meaning and intention of the original work and the status quo is ultimately changed.

I'm neutral on the split, however, we can not just say it doesn't work at all. Plus, I recommend, if you don't believe the Split to make a thread on why. Simply asking me these things isn't going anywhere.

Well I think it can easily be done like with Marvel, where it is declared that reality is a mosaic where there is no one answer, and many contradictory truths can exist simultaneously.

 

[Brahmatman]

This was answered by the blog. The best way to determine things like that is consistency and coherent logic.

If only the authors understood what it is and knew that powerl level profiles are created based on their works

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It turns out that God is not stronger than Morpheus? It seems strange

It turns out that God is above the other gods.

It turns out that the Demattheis Spectre is non-canonical for the rest of Dc, some new discoveries, right?

Does anyone use the Dream Logic? Hal Jordan being the Spectre is the strongest link yet most stories already recall him being the Spectre.

Or why, if he is canonical and comes out of someone else’s cosmology, then this cosmology cannot be equated to another in terms of the canonicity of the character’s appearance? Is this also some kind of personal selectivity?

Appearances almost have no value on canonicity especially if the story itself is non-canon. The direction that one establishes to make the Cosmology needs to be built on some sort of core. For Matteis, it's the Dream Logic and all existence dreamed by God and that every human is God. Characters are written by multiple authors such as Spectre, Phantom Stranger, etc…does not change anything to connect Cosmology simply because they appear in a story written by a certain author.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

If only the authors understood what it is and knew that powerl level profiles are created based on their works

It's almost like you answered yourself as to why the split happened. Unless, you're being sarcastic here then you answered yourself.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Well I think it can easily be done like with Marvel, where it is declared that reality is a mosaic where there is no one answer, and many contradictory truths can exist simultaneously.

If it's that apparent to you then try. It's not so easy to say contradictions exist in the context of trying to connect ideas of one big Cosmology. Wish you luck on that but I doubt it goes far, if anywhere.

 

[Brahmatman]

t turns out that God is above the other gods.

Subjective contradiction, okay

Appearances almost have no value on canonicity especially if the story itself is non-canon. The direction that one establishes to make the Cosmology needs to be built on some sort of core. For Matteis, it's the Dream Logic and all existence dreamed by God and that every human is God. Characters are written by multiple authors such as Spectre, Phantom Stranger, etc…does not change anything to connect Cosmology simply because they appear in a story written by a certain author.

If a character comes from a different cosmology, then he can no longer be a character in the cosmology of a certain author by definition. There is no official split of cosmology, why then should such rhetoric have any power at all?

 

[Brahmatman]

It's almost like you answered yourself as to why the split happened. Unless, you're being sarcastic here then you answered yourself.

The split of cosmology should only take place when it is officially confirmed by the authors that their cosmology is not canonical for the rest of the universe. Authors do not write comics for the wiki

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I moving on from this part of the discussion.

 

[Antvasima]

Brahmatman, and likely Tiktime and Jolman1, it seems best if you stop spamming replies here that nobody agrees with, and that have been thoroughly responded to already. Otherwise we will likely have to ban you from this thread.

 

[Excellence616]

Dc cosmology upgrade: Revenge of the sith

Hello, I decided to make a small blog on Dc cosmology based on the Doom patrol comics Recursive painting: There is an infinite recursive artistic painting containing at each of the infinite levels the same painting, which continues the recursion to infinity. Each level of the recursive...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ramasugita11]

When is the blog revision finished? I waited too long, should I help finish the blog?

 

[Tiktime]

If it's that apparent to you then try. It's not so easy to say contradictions exist in the context of trying to connect ideas of one big Cosmology. Wish you luck on that but I doubt it goes far, if anywhere.

Considering that direct proofs are ignored here, yes, most likely no one will accept, lol

 

[Tiktime]

Brahmatman, and likely Tiktime and Jolman1, it seems best if you stop spamming replies here that nobody agrees with, and that have been thoroughly responded to already. Otherwise we will likely have to ban you from this thread.

Lol. This is Tyranny of course