DC Comics: follow-up upgrades (Part 1)

[NHTkenshin2]

There is no way people unironically thought anything DC related can get remotely close to Tier 2 lmaoaoaoo rahhhh

These ratings are ass imo, there is no way the Godheads are simply Orrery level when it has been implied numerous times the Sphere defines all aspects of the framework of the Material worlds.

There is also alot of integral aspects of the cosmology that seem to be missing, so i do want to at least bring them up here.

---

This should be very simple and doesn't need any complications, lets start with something more solid.

Heaven​

• When traveling on the planet where Spectre is imprisoned, Zauriel, one of the angels of Pax Dei, claims time does not pass in Heaven | JLA #30
• After the destruction of Montevideo, Zauriel senses the deaths of millions, and the narrator describes his whereabouts (Heaven) as being beyond space and beyond time | DC One Million Vol. 1 #1

Pretty simple, Heaven exists outside space and time. Makes perfect sense too, Heaven and other SoG constructs exist beyond the Orrery, the Dark Multiverse and others. All of which being composed of Spacetime continuums, with other SoG realms also being stated to exist outside of both Space and time.

• Wonderworld exists at the very edge of space and time | JLA #31
• Metron also confirms this | JLA #36
• Metron has also compared entering Wonderworld as re-entering Time | JLA #16
• The Rock of Eternity however, exists outside of Space and time entirely | JLA #28

With of course, the Sphere of Gods being located outside of the Material worlds, which includes the realms above.

But in these scans, we seemingly get a different view:

• In the exact same issue that we find out time does not pass in Heaven because of its exteriority to Spacetime. We get very clear evidence that Sentinal and Zauriel seemingly manipulate time within Heaven, implying that while it exists outside of the Local Multiverse and its spacetimes, it too seemingly has a dimension of Time | JLA #30

So? Is this some form of contradiction maybe? Nope, look at this statement:

• Mxy straight up shows the entire Multiversity map and then tells the JL that the entire Multiverse (excluding the Source wall) exists in the Fourth Dimension, Time | Justice League Vol. 4 #19

What does this mean? What would it mean for a structure within the Fourth Dimension to be beyond Time?

Pretty simple, Heaven is described as being beyond space and time, which would seem to suggest that there is no time within Heaven at all. However, as the context points out, there are hints that suggest that Heaven may in fact have a dimension of time of its own. This would obviously imply that there is a layer of time within Heaven that is separate from the time dimension of the rest of the universe.

This isnt an inconsistent theme within the comics, considering we do know even the Monitor Sphere has time within it

• When time began manifesting within the Monitor Sphere, stories started having beginnings and endings | Final Crisis #1

With all of this being pretty consistent that Heaven seemingly has a higher dimension of time.

Plato Brainrot​

Yeah well, i was gonna bring it up one way or another.

• Batman explicitly calls the Sphere of Gods a platonic archetypal world | Batman #702
• Batman requires the very essence of a bullet, calling the Original Bullet the blueprint of every bullet ever. Calling it the bullet that killed multiple famous individuals throughout history. Firing it across time within Apokolips | Batman #702
  • Which can be used as further evidence that another higher dimension of time exists within the Sphere

So what have we established? Not only does Batman explicitly call the Sphere a platonic world, he also required the literal essence of what a bullet is just to harm Darkseid.

Plato's philosophy of the Forms, which includes the idea of Platonic worlds or Forms, holds that the material world is a mere shadow or imperfect reflection of a perfect world of Forms or Ideas.

The quality of “Abstract" should make sense, the speed force represents the absolute limit of matter, beyond it is pure information where concepts and ideas alike live:

• The Speed force is the limit to matter | The Multiversity map
• Matter becomes pure information when reaching the Sphere beyond the Speed wall | Final Crisis #7
• Gods and new gods are sentient ideas that use concepts as weapons | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #1

“A mere shadow or imperfect reflection" also makes sense in the context of the sphere, as it has been implied numerous times to define everything in the material worlds.

• Metron is the platonic concept behind all electric based phenomenon in the Material worlds | Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison
• In the Sphere, minor changes cause the entirety of existence to be remade. | JLA #15
• Upon entering, Batman noted everything started having a “thousand extra layers" of meaning | Batman #702
• Godheads within the Sphere interact with the material worlds through avatars and emanations | The Multiversity Guidebook: The Deluxe Edition
• When Orions Godhead died, an infinite amount of Orions across the Multiverse died | Final Crisis #6
• The Sphere is the source of the true power of Magic. | Justice League Dark Vol. 2 #10
  • Magic shapes all aspects of existence, with any altering with it resulting in the destruction of everything | Justice League Dark and Wonder Woman: Witching Hour #1
  • Magic is once again confirmed to be the most integral thing that shapes creation, with its destruction causing the destruction of everything | League Dark and Wonder Woman: Witching Hour #1
• Wonder Women of Earth-23 call the Gods “Universals" | Final Crisis #7
  • The one and only definition of a platonic universal

(DC Comics: The Anatomy of Metahuman)

“Platonism should be Unchanging, the Sphere isnt"​

Spoiler: Unchanging

It is the claim that because the Sphere of Gods does indeed change, it immediately makes it not qualfiable for Platonism. Let me respond to this, considering i do think it is a pretty flawed argument.

So why did Plato believe Platonic concepts are unchangeable? Plato believed that Platonic concepts, also known as Forms, are unchangeable because they exist independently of the physical world, which is constantly changing and subject to decay. The Forms, however, are eternal, perfect, and abstract entities that underlie all phenomena, and they derive their existence and intelligibility from the world of Forms. For example, the Form of the Good is always good, and the Form of Justice is always just.

Plato interpreted the unchangeability of Platonism as something limited to the material world, as the Forms are not subject to change or decay, making them perfect and eternal. This is because they are independent of anything that happens in the physical world, and they are considered unchangeable because of their exteriority and dominion over the physical world.

However, when entering the platonic world (Sphere of the Gods), one is no longer independent, or inaccessible. This takes away the main attributes of why these concepts are considered unchangeable in the first place, as they now exist on the same level of existence as these concepts. Which does have pretty significant implications

As it would very well explain why unchangeablity simply doesn't work within this context here, the world of forms is not inaccessible here. In this fictional verse, entities can exit the speed force and become pure information and start actively affecting the world of forms.

“Platonism should be Eternal, the Sphere isnt”​

Spoiler: Eternal

DC Comics has always had some form of belief system functioning very similarly if not identically to Carl Jungs Collective Unconscious. Where everything seems to be bound by the beliefs of mortals/humans.

Neil Gaiman used this concept in A Dream of a Thousand Cats, which tells a story which depicts that originally cats were the dominant species on Earth, being giant beasts which hunted humans. However, the collected dream of a world where humans ruled over cats altered reality from its very beginning, making it so that humans were always larger than cats. Implying that Dreams have the power to shape reality

This logic extended up to the Sphere of Gods, where it is confirmed that Gods are essentially believed into existence via the dreams of humans. And that humans pretty much brought the Gods into existence through their beliefs

So of course, people have made the argument that this goes directly against one of Platos main attributes to Platonic concepts, their eternal nature.

Response:​

Here is the big problem with that argument, it assumes that there is a specific point in time where the Gods came into existence. However, the Sphere of Gods is completely exterior to the Time of the material worlds, and the Gods exist outside of time itself. Therefore, the beliefs of humans shape entities that exist outside of time and view it in a nonlinear way.

In the DC Universe, dreams have the power to shape reality, and the belief in a God's existence that brought them into existence, would make them exist before time itself. This is because the belief system in the DC Universe is not bound by linear time like the material world, and instead operates on a nonlinear plane. Therefore, the argument that the belief system contradicts the eternal nature of Platonic concepts is flawed because it is based on a linear understanding of time, which does not apply to the realm of the Gods.

In essence, the Sphere of Gods is a realm that exists beyond the constraints of time and space, and the Platonic concepts that define it are still eternal because they exist outside of time itself. The belief system in the DC Universe does not contradict this eternal nature because it operates on a nonlinear plane and shapes entities that exist outside of time.

Which is precisely why, The Presence who was shaped by these dreams explicitly says he is Eternal. Because it has nothing to do with that entire idea.

In summary, the above explanation reveals that the Sphere of Gods operates pretty similarly to Plato's World of Forms, where it shapes and determines all aspects of the material worlds, including the Dark, Anti-matter, and Positive worlds. This parallels the ideas of Carl Jung, who believed that Platonic concepts were products of the human mind, creating a paradoxical loop where humans create concepts and concepts, in turn, shape humans. Humans create to Gods, and Gods, in turn, shape humans.

Most importantly, the Sphere of Gods transcends the fundamental framework of reality and existence, viewing it as a mere shadow of its true nature.

Even if it is not a perfect representation of Platonic concepts, as indicated above, it is evident that the Sphere of Gods indeed defines the conceptual framework of the material worlds.

Metafiction brainrot​

Pretty shocked we kinda forgot about this whole system. (Im sorry, im gonna have to post entire quotes for this bit for people to understand the full grasp of this concept better)

Grant Morrison has explained numerous times in the past that his Orrery of worlds worked on a sort of philosophical look of the real world being within the cosmology and the very abstractions of characters like Superman kind of existing in the real world in some way.

He regularly explains this using geometry, calling all of comicbook fiction “Planetime", calling the real world “Cubetime" and having them all under Alex Ross' concept of Hypertime, which he believes to be some sort of mega-continuity encompassing all of the above

• Morrison: I used a lot of this M-Theory, brane multiverse stuff in Final Crisis. Doug Mahnke did a great 3-D drawing of an inter-brane corridor in the Superman Beyond segments -- and it ties in fine with how I see things operating on recursive, isomorphic scales, or dimensions. I'm ready to accept that our entire lives are playing out across a 2-D film as thin as soap bubble skin, since -- as above, so below -- we already have our own examples of such branes in the form of movie and TV screens, the pages of books and of comics. | Grant Morrison Talks Brainy Comics, Sexy Apocalypse
• The Multiverse is confirmed to work on M-theory | Final Crisis #5
• Barry Allen was fiction in some higher, but some undiscovered Hypertime world | The Multiversity Guidebook
• 52 new Universes were born and destroyed in Hypertime, no one remembered but the Monitors who kept track of them in the fictions of Earth-33 | The Multiversity Guidebook
• “The DC universe exists within our own universe,” he explains. “The map is actually showing you where I think the DC universe is, which is a two dimensional playground. The ground of being of the DC Universe is the white page before anything’s drawn on it. And then the white page suddenly uses its pristine unselfconsciousness and suddenly realizes, oh my god, somebody’s put a mark on me. What does the mark mean? The mark can mean any story, and suddenly this gigantic consciousness starts to imagine what stories would be like, and it sets up a barrier to protect itself from all this. The map of the multiverse is almost like a Buddhist map of the cosmos.” --- “For the DC universe, it’s quite simple,” he continues. “You don’t need grand theories. The universe exists on the second dimension and we can read their adventures with Superman going back to 1938, and you can put them all together and look at them from above. We can line up the future Superman with the original Superman and they can see each other, but we can see both of them. For me, all of the interesting stuff, this super string stuff, is happening between me and the same dimension as this material.” | Grant Morrison Merges String Theory with Superheroes in DC’s Multiversity

So what is he talking about? I believe the absolute best explanation Grant has given to this concept comes in this interview:


(Grant Morrison: Talking with Gods)

Grant best explains the different layers of Hypertime in these quotes, specifically discussing the nature of the very first layer of Hypertime, Planetime. The grand encompass of all comicbook continuities:

So they have this notion time is a line, so i thought “So thats basic geometry”. If time is a line so wouldn't that mean that there could be lots of lines on a plane? And so i drew this thing on a back of a napkin to show it to Mark Waid, and it was like a kind of junction, a train junction, with these lines each of which representing different universes, meaning, different comicbooks that contradicted one another, they could all run parallel and sometimes they crossed over, sometimes that Batman who didn't agree with that Batman agreed with him here and fit in a little bit more, so although Frank Miller's Dark Knight didn't actually fit into canon with Batman, what it did is feed some of its energy into the main Batman line to reinvigorate it. So i created this big kind of diagram that was like a loom. And then, i thought okay if that's all the comics, in fact even on that line you can have the Marvel Comics lying running along here, and sometimes it crosses over when Marvel and DC and friends, you've got this beautiful model of comicbooks as a concept as this two-dimensional plane with all these timelines running over one another.

Now, taking the geometry into perspective, we go into the very next higher dimension. Cubetime, the dimension where you could look down on all of Planetime from a higher dimensional perspective, and view all of its stories from start to finish which Grant interpretated as seeing the Time dimensions of these stories nonlinearly:

And then, i thought and obviously above that, taking the metaphor of the geometry higher you would have Cubetime, and in Cubetime are people like us that who are able to look down on Planetime with all the comicbook universes from a higher-dimensional perspective.

In which Grant finally explains what he truly believes Hypertime to be, and confirms it is essentially is a storytelling device that allows all DC stories from different authors to be part of a single super-continuity of some sort:

So that's what Hypertime was was, it was a of geometric vision that would incorporate the real world, and the comic universe, and allow every story that was ever told to be...real? Because they are real you can go pick them up, you know, and whether the continuity contradicts or not the stories remain...real? You know and it was-all my thing And was always get to the next level of what's real and what a comic is rather then trying to pretend that i was telling stories about a world that you just couldn't get to. A special world where Superman lives that's, there is no world where Superman lives, it's on that page, and so that's what i was trying to get at.

• 1st: Is the All-Star line itself a separate part of Hyper-time?
• Grant: It could be regarded as that if you like. All-Star is a Hypertime Line which went underground for 20 years and is now coming back into the light.
• ‘Hypertime’ was the name Mark Waid gave to a concept of cosmic geometry I’d come up with, one bleary night in San Diego – given that the DCU has a Time LINE, the idea started as a consideration of what might exist beyond the Time Line, on the Time PLANE, or even in the mysterious Time CUBE . The theory allowed every comic story you ever read to be part of a larger-scale mega-continuity, which also includes other comic book ‘universes’ as well as the ‘real world’ we live in and dimensions beyond our own. It was also about how the world of fiction relates literally and geometrically to the world of ‘reality’. Some of its basic features have even been echoed in current cosmological ideas emerging from the field of superstring research and M-Theory. Skip the rest of this answer if you can’t be bothered with crazy talk.
• We all live in Hypertime – in our 3-Dimensional level of Hypertime, which can be seen as CUBE TIME in relation to the DCU’s LINE TIME, we can pick up comics and leaf through them, flipping in any direction – ‘time traveling’ back and forward through the ‘continuity’ like some new Doctor Who! I have a suspicion, based upon experience, that in HYPERCUBE TIME, there exist intelligences who stand in relation to our 3-D universe as we stand in relation to the 2-D universe of our comic book, film or TV heroes and who can leaf through our lives and times with the same ease we can leaf through Superman’s history but that’s just me. | Comic Book Biography: GRANT MORRISON

Alright? Obviously from what you have learned so far, it is pretty clear Cubetime in this situation is referring to Earth-33, the real world, where the readers live.

And It is pretty clear that contrary to popular belief, Earth-33 is not just a universe that has influence over all other realities, but a geometrically and dimensionally higher existence that looks down on all other universes as fictional comicbooks. With explicit confirmation that Earth-33 is the Real world, our world

• “GM: Oh yeah, very much. There's got to be a bad guy somewhere. I don't want to say too much about that, but certainly the thing that we're doing, which is the seventh issue of the series, it's called "Ultra Comics", and it's kind of a new character but it's based on Earth Prime, which is our Earth, which we re-named Earth 33 now just so it fits in the numerical structure. | Vampire Batman, Hypnotic Induction, And God: Grant Morrison Talks ‘The Multiversity’

And now finally, for the ultimate kibosh, the icing on the mountain:

• Everything begins with Point-time, the mark is all possiblity of what a linetime could become. Space A | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
• Planetime represents the encompass of linetimes, and the higher dimension being made out of Linetimes. Plane B | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2
• Cubetime inhabitants view Planetime akin to flat disks. Space C | Batman: The Return of Bruce Wayne #2

I hope with the evidence provided so far, you would understand why exactly Earth-33 is undoubtedly a realm that exists beyond linetime (narrative timelines) and essentially views them as stories, fiction. This has been confirmed numerous times to be a higher geometrical dimensional perspective by Grant in both interviews and comics, and most certainly just not a case of a single universe within the Multiverse having a strange supernatural affect on some universes, so hopefully it isnt much of a controversial addition.

However, before i get to our conclusions, i do want to bring up something else Grant has hinted at in interviews before. The existence of a “Hypercube-time". As the name implies, where Planetime is comicbooks, Cubetime is the real world, Hypercube-time is seemingly a world that views even us as fiction:

Which then allowed me to imagine Hypercube time, which would be the kind of entities i was talking to you about from the Kathmandu experience, looking down on our Spacetime as the same flat surface where they can see future, past, present simultaneously.

• “that in HYPERCUBE TIME, there exist intelligences who stand in relation to our 3-D universe as we stand in relation to the 2-D universe of our comic book, film or TV heroes and who can leaf through our lives and times with the same ease we can leaf through Superman’s history but that’s just me.” | Comic Book Biography: GRANT MORRISON

It is presumed that Hypercube-time is a part of Hypertime, as we already have evidence from interviews and comics about the existence of Planetime and Cubetime. It is not unreasonable to assume that Hypercube-time also exists, although its exact position within the cosmology is relatively unknown. Some fans speculate that it might be associated with entities in the Sphere of Gods, but there is evidence suggesting it has a closer connection to material worlds.

Information regarding Hypercube-time has been quite vague, but Grant has described it as being essentially the same as his Kathmandu experience, where he had a ******* insane psychedelic experience in Kathmandu, a city in Nepal (bald mfs love this stuff smh).

In his interview with James Gunn, he provided a detailed account of what he witnessed, describing it as the ability to perceive the universe in more than four dimensions within a higher mathematical space, similar to viewing a comic book.

Most importantly, he referred to what he saw as "the Bulk" and stated that he used his experience to inform the concept of comics as the best way to describe it, which became his Hypertime system. Hypercube-time represents the specific space he entered during that psychedelic experience.

Heres the big ol' problem, if Cubetime is Earth-33 in this context, we also know what the Bulk is in this context, its Hyperspace, its the Bleed. The space between universes. Which isnt inconsistent, as that we do actually know that within Bleedspace, exists structures like the House of Heros, which is confirmed to be a Pan-dimensional realm, presumably existing in all M-theory dimensions of the Multiverse. With it being pretty consistent that 6-Dimensional structures can indeed exist within the Material world.

Conclusion​

Earth-33 should be Low Complex Multiverse level (5-D) - Exists on a higher geometrical perspective that views all universes as flat fiction.

HYPERCUBE-time and Bleedspace should be Low Complex Multiverse level (6-D) - Encompasses all universes in a Bulk Hyperspace, encompasses Pan-dimensional structures such as the House of Heros, is implied to have connections with HYPERCUBE-time, and is compared to the Kathmandu experience, which is described as a higher mathematical space higher then our own that seemingly views both us and our 4-dimensions as fictions. Views Earth-33 as fictional. Likely spans over 6-Dimensional structures.

Sphere of Gods should be Complex Multiverse level (at least 7-D) - Represents the true platonic concepts making up everything that defines the Material Multiverse. Has a dimension of time even higher then the Material worlds. Gods have been confirmed to have range across all of Hypertime.

• Note: Grant Morrison has implied that HYPERCUBE-time might not particularly be the final dimension of Hypertime, considering he did state that Hypertime is all comicbooks, the real world, and dimension(s) beyond the Real world. Which is consistent with M-theory

Scaling​

It should be made very clear that the actual amount of people that scale to Earth-33 is pretty limited. Earth-33 is mostly seen by people within the Multiverse as an absolutely exterior to the shit happening in the Multiverse type of realm.

• Earth-33 is protected by a sort of Fictive membrane, which only ideas, comics and concepts can cross | The Absolute Multiversity
• Using the ideas from Earth-33, one can invade the entire Multiverse | The Multiversity
• The Gentry have come from the nowhere outside of the Multiverse | The Multiversity
• The Gentry have come from Earth-33 | The Multiversity
• Monitors record Crisises and the destruction of Multiverses within the fictions of Earth-33 | The Multiversity Guidebook

So no, it should be made very clear Earth-33 is mostly exterior to the stuff happening in the Multiverse, most of the time at least.

This will definitely not get rejected within 2 hours.

 

[Ped2018]

This will definitely not get rejected within 2 hours.

 

[Deagonx]

Pretty simple, Heaven exists outside space and time.

Yes. Space and time as in the 4-D spacetime continuum that is the Orrery. This is already incorporated into the existing tiers. Being a realm outside the universe doesn't qualify it as being infinitely greater.

So what have we established? Not only does Batman explicitly call the Sphere a platonic world, he also required the literal essence of what a bullet is just to harm Darkseid.

Plato's philosophy of the Forms, which includes the idea of Platonic worlds or Forms, holds that the material world is a mere shadow or imperfect reflection of a perfect world of Forms or Ideas.

The quality of “Abstract" should make sense, the speed force represents the absolute limit of matter, beyond it is pure information where concepts and ideas alike live:

Being conceptual also isn't a guarantee of qualitative superiority. Moreover, there's plenty of scans that directly contradict this regarding the Sphere. Such as the fact that Libra said he regained corporeal (physical) form in Apokolips. There are many others, but I won't get into that now as whether or not the Sphere is physical doesn't affect the tiering.

And regarding Plato. The fact that a realm is called "platonic" does not mean we can superimpose everything from Plato's theories over the cosmology and take it as absolute fact. What matters is the actual in-comic features that the realms have, not that they were referred to as Platonic.

In the Sphere, minor changes cause the entirety of existence to be remade. | JLA #15

Why are you completely editorializing this scan in the hyperlink? That's not what he says at all.

Upon entering, Batman noted everything started having a “thousand extra layers" of meaning | Batman #702

But this takes place on Earth?

Most importantly, the Sphere of Gods transcends the fundamental framework of reality and existence, viewing it as a mere shadow of its true nature.

No, it really doesn't. In fact, the opposite. The Orrery is what creates the Sphere.

Grant Morrison has explained numerous times in the past that his Orrery of worlds worked on a sort of philosophical look of the real world being within the cosmology and the very abstractions of characters like Superman kind of existing in the real world in some way.

He regularly explains this using geometry, calling all of comicbook fiction “Planetime", calling the real world “Cubetime" and having them all under Alex Ross' concept of Hypertime, which he believes to be some sort of mega-continuity encompassing all of the above

• Morrison: I used a lot of this M-Theory, brane multiverse stuff in Final Crisis. Doug Mahnke did a great 3-D drawing of an inter-brane corridor in the Superman Beyond segments -- and it ties in fine with how I see things operating on recursive, isomorphic scales, or dimensions. I'm ready to accept that our entire lives are playing out across a 2-D film as thin as soap bubble skin, since -- as above, so below -- we already have our own examples of such branes in the form of movie and TV screens, the pages of books and of comics. | Grant Morrison Talks Brainy Comics, Sexy Apocalypse

Grant's author statements are of fairly limited utility here. I can find a Grant Morrison statement referencing a dozen different inspirations. Some are more wankable than others, but "Grant said he used it as inspiration" or "incorporated this into the comics" doesn't allow us to superimpose it onto the cosmology.

The Multiverse is confirmed to work on M-theory | Final Crisis #5

A character with no name mentioning M-theory doesn't mean it's accurate for DC. Plus, Grant is just one author in this cosmology, there are two others.

Barry Allen was fiction in some higher, but some undiscovered Hypertime world | The Multiversity Guidebook

This is also blatantly not what the comic is saying. Read the scan. Jay Garrick is fictional to Barry Allen. This isn't because Barry has an R>F relationship with Jay, it is because all of the verses of the Orrery have comic books of the other verses.

Alright? Obviously from what you have learned so far, it is pretty clear Cubetime in this situation is referring to Earth-33, the real world, where the readers live.

And It is pretty clear that contrary to popular belief, Earth-33 is not just a universe that has influence over all other realities, but a geometrically and dimensionally higher existence that looks down on all other universes as fictional comicbooks. With explicit confirmation that Earth-33 is the Real world, our world

Earth-33 isn't superior to the other universes of the Orrery. It just has a metafictional influence on them and doesn't have superheroes. From the perspective of beings who are above the Orrery, Earth-33 is no different from any other universe. It doesn't have additional geometric dimensions. It's a normal universe.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Yes. Space and time as in the 4-D spacetime continuum that is the Orrery. This is already incorporated into the existing tiers. Being a realm outside the universe doesn't qualify it as being infinitely greater.

Indeed, however this isnt the main point i am making, Heaven has a time dimension whilst being outside of Spacetime. Read the rest of the post

Being conceptual also isn't a guarantee of qualitative superiority. Moreover, there's plenty of scans that directly contradict this regarding the Sphere. Such as the fact that Libra said he regained corporeal (physical) form in Apokolips. There are many others, but I won't get into that now as whether or not the Sphere is physical doesn't affect the tiering.

Meh, im not sure where these scans are from, or who wrote it.

As of right now, Grant objectively views the Sphere as some form of abstract world, its been stated a thousand times already.

In Final Crisis, Libra is now one of the New Gods, who are treated as abstractions in that run.

And regarding Plato. The fact that a realm is called "platonic" does not mean we can superimpose everything from Plato's theories over the cosmology and take it as absolute fact. What matters is the actual in-comic features that the realms have, not that they were referred to as Platonic.

Indeed, which is why there are other arguments to back it up.

Why are you completely editorializing this scan in the hyperlink? That's not what he says at all.

“For in the game of gods, creation itself is the playing field, some-times Darkseid wins, sometimes we win. Each time, the Universe is remade, as you have witnessed"

But this takes place on Earth?

It is made pretty clear that Batman entered something as abstract as the Sphere in that entire scene

The event in question took place around FC #6 iirc when the essence of Darkseid started to embody everything around him. When said essence appeared before Batman when he went through a door to bigger, simpler world, he mentioned that everything started becoming much more meaningful around him.

I have always interpreted it as Batman getting closer to the abstraction that is Darkseid and the Sphere as of that entire sequence, Batman earlier in that issue said that the New Gods existed in a platonic world, and then entered another world where Darkseid, a New God existed. Apokolips

No, it really doesn't. In fact, the opposite. The Orrery is what creates the Sphere.

I have discussed this above.

Grant's author statements are of fairly limited utility here. I can find a Grant Morrison statement referencing a dozen different inspirations. Some are more wankable than others, but "Grant said he used it as inspiration" or "incorporated this into the comics" doesn't allow us to superimpose it onto the cosmology.

Im not sure if you accidentally meant to quote something from the Sphere of Gods section.

It is blatantly and objectively clear at this point that Grant has incorporated this into his comics and is still all applicable as of 2022 with his Absolute Multiversity work.

it is because all of the verses of the Orrery have comic books of the other verses.

Earth-33 isn't superior to the other universes of the Orrery. It just has a metafictional influence on them and doesn't have superheroes. From the perspective of beings who are above the Orrery, Earth-33 is no different from any other universe. It doesn't have additional geometric dimensions. It's a normal universe.

Earth-33 specifically is very different then these worlds, with it being affiliated with our own world, protected by a “fictive membrane" and called to be Cubetime, a geometrically higher perspective that views all universes as fictional, and not just a universe that happens to be fictional in the world next to it, like whatever happened in Multiversity.

 

[Deagonx]

Heaven has a time dimension whilst being outside of Spacetime.

That doesn't make it qualitatively superior. Besides that, time in the Sphere and time in the Orrery pass simultaneously.

As of right now, Grant objectively views the Sphere as some form of abstract world, its been stated a thousand times already.

As I said, being non-physical doesn't grant superiority either way, I was just pointing out that there's ample scans in both directions.

“For in the game of gods, creation itself is the playing field, some-times Darkseid wins, sometimes we win. Each time, the Universe is remade, as you have witnessed"

Yes, I read the scan. I wasn't claiming the scan never said the universe was remade.

It is blatantly and objectively clear at this point that Grant has incorporated this into his comics and is still all applicable as of 2022 with his Absolute Multiversity work.

This isn't a rebuttal, this is just restating your opinion. Regardless, the fact remains, Grant referencing a theory or a philosophy or a religion is not justification for putting that whole theory into the cosmology and treating it as canon. For both Platonism and M-Theory we have concrete scans which reject many of their core premises. You may have attempted to pre-emptively address them, but the objections remain valid. New Gods are not Platonic. the Orrery isn't 11-dimensional.

Earth-33 specifically is very different then these worlds

Sure, but it isn't qualitiatively superior to the others. It's a regular 4-D spacetime continuum.

a geometrically higher perspective that views all universes as fictional, and not just a universe that happens to be fictional in the world next to it, like whatever happened in Multiversity.

No, it's identical to what happened in Multiversity. Besides that, we know from the rest of the cosmology that this isn't the case. Every character that is above the Orrery is also above Earth-33, but none of them consider Superman fictional. The relationship between Earth-33 and the other universes is not that of superiority or R>F.

Superboy Prime literally went to Earth-33, by the way.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with op

 

[Kroneii1]

following

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Pretty simple, Heaven exists outside space and time. Makes perfect sense too, Heaven and other SoG constructs exist beyond the Orrery, the Dark Multiverse and others. All of which being composed of Spacetime continuums, with other SoG realms also being stated to exist outside of both Space and time.

This doesn’t seem like anything above Low 1-C. As a “structure” existing outside an inner structure(Orrery) and being outside that space-time isn’t necessarily warranted for a tier upgrade. By being outside that Space-Time would only be an infinity above a Low 2-C structure.

Pretty simple, Heaven is described as being beyond space and time, which would seem to suggest that there is no time within Heaven at all. However, as the context points out, there are hints that suggest that Heaven may in fact have a dimension of time of its own. This would obviously imply that there is a layer of time within Heaven that is separate from the time dimension of the rest of the universe.

You’re being repetitive here just cut to the chase. From reading this you would be implying that is a separate “time” coveying with the Sphere but that works in conjunction with the normal space-time continuum of the Orrery, it simply has a separate existence since it outside that inner function. That isn’t really warranted for anything given that it would have to have some sort of qualitative superiority rather than just operating in a different realm from the Orrery. Being perceived in different time in different dimension doesn’t seem like much to suggest an upgrade.

With all of this being pretty consistent that Heaven seemingly has a higher dimension of time.

Monitor Sphere is a couple of rungs above Heaven. Not to mention what you claim isn’t supported by your evidence for a “higher” dimension. It’s quite vague what you’re trying to conjure up here with these claims. Time works differently in the Monitor Sphere but it’s meaning follow the same route as the Orrery.

So what have we established? Not only does Batman explicitly call the Sphere a platonic world, he also required the literal essence of what a bullet is just to harm Darkseid.

He was guessing what they are. He only knew they were ideas from this “sort of platonic archetypal world” which puts his statement to be unsure. That isn’t really the biggest problem but rather his describing what their nature are and how they seem to act from where they come from.

Plato's philosophy of the Forms, which includes the idea of Platonic worlds or Forms, holds that the material world is a mere shadow or imperfect reflection of a perfect world of Forms or Ideas.

How is this reflected upon by the comics. That Darkseid falling cast a shadow over the Universe? That isn’t the same as the allegory as Plato teaching of the material worlds from the vested image of the perfect worlds. For one the Sphere do not start these “ideas” nor are every part of it is the same.

The quality of “Abstract" should make sense, the speed force represents the absolute limit of matter, beyond it is pure information where concepts and ideas alike live:

Unless DC defines what Platonic Concepts are better or uses a separate definition to describe them then none of what you said suggest actual Platonic. They at best represent a lower emanation of a truer concept because they can “die” and they weren’t always there.

In essence, the Sphere of Gods is a realm that exists beyond the constraints of time and space, and the Platonic concepts that define it are still eternal because they exist outside of time itself. The belief system in the DC Universe does not contradict this eternal nature because it operates on a nonlinear plane and shapes entities that exist outside of time.

None of that proves that the beings are Platonic. The Sphere itself is in question as well since they still aren’t eternal which is an existence without beginning or end. The Sphere had a set point when it came and it can be destroyed as well. It doesn’t define platonic because its non-linear regression of concepts functioning the space-time continuum to be different does not imply Perfect Form.

Also what was said could be applied to almost anyone not bound to the space-time continuum in the Orrery. “Not contestant by time and space,” “Non-linear,” “nature of a different system like the Sphere.” None of those describes what you're trying to claim.

In summary, the above explanation reveals that the Sphere of Gods operates pretty similarly to Plato's World of Forms, where it shapes and determines all aspects of the material worlds, including the Dark, Anti-matter, and Positive worlds. This parallels the ideas of Carl Jung, who believed that Platonic concepts were products of the human mind, creating a paradoxical loop where humans create concepts and concepts, in turn, shape humans. Humans create to Gods, and Gods, in turn, shape humans.

I'll say this because I believe Deagon has already mentioned it, the humans influenced the ideas of the Sphere. It was just a possibility that nothing could make of it during the early dawn of the waking Multiverse. So, the Material World shapes the Sphere, and from there the ideas are implemented into meaning in the Material World.

Platonic are not made or shaped, they exist as that perfect meaning and form. The whole idea behind humans shaping the Sphere is already going against the idea of Perfect Forms.

Most importantly, the Sphere of Gods transcends the fundamental framework of reality and existence, viewing it as a mere shadow of its true nature.

Source?

Even if it is not a perfect representation of Platonic concepts, as indicated above, it is evident that the Sphere of Gods indeed defines the conceptual framework of the material worlds.

You can't have it both ways, it is or it isn't.

Now, taking the geometry into perspective, we go into the very next higher dimension. Cubetime, the dimension where you could look down on all of Planetime from a higher dimensional perspective, and view all of its stories from start to finish which Grant interpretated as seeing the Time dimensions of these stories nonlinearly:

A different views based on dimensionality is not the same as suggesting “higher dimension.” It simply has a different view set because it's a different dimensional point because 2D would be overlooked as flat to 3D.

In which Grant finally explains what he truly believes Hypertime to be, and confirms it is essentially isa storytelling device that allows all DC stories from different authors to be part of a single super-continuity of some sort:

Not expressed very well in the comics. Hence why you don't use these interviews unless the comics support them. The source material is far more important than the author's words during interviews.

And It is pretty clear that contrary to popular belief, Earth-33 is not just a universe that has influence over all other realities, but a geometrically and dimensionally higher existence that looks down on all other universes as fictional comicbooks. With explicit confirmation that Earth-33 is the Real world, our world

Literally was not mentioned.

I hope with the evidence provided so far, you would understand why exactly Earth-33 is undoubtedly a realm that exists beyond linetime (narrative timelines) and essentially views them as stories, fiction. This has been confirmed numerous times to be a higher geometrical dimensional perspective by Grant in both interviews and comics, and most certainly just not a case of a single universe within the Multiverse having a strange supernatural affect on some universes, so hopefully it isn much of a controversial addition.

A representation of the real world that still is confined to the Orrery was made with the other Earths. Makes no difference, I think this is a pretty obvious caveat of misconceptualizing what Earth-33 really is.

However, before i get to our conclusions, i do want to bring up something else Grant has hinted at in interviews before. The existence of a “Hypercube-time". As the name implies, where Planetime is comicbooks, Cubetime is the real world, Hypercube-time is seemingly a world that views even us as fiction:

Keyword: “hinted” also “fictional.” He is referring these things with the comics. Being aware like Superboy Prime seeing the narratives play and being in it does not define him as “beyond” comics pulp fiction.

In his interview with James Gunn, he provided a detailed account of what he witnessed, describing it as the ability to perceive the universe in more than four dimensions within a higher mathematical space, similar to viewing a comic book.

Viewing comic books from our perceptive isn't just 3-D to 2-D but also fiction and reality in the real-world context. Fiction can only go so far because it will always be “fiction.” So “higher mathematical space” in conjunction to viewing “fiction” has no correlation to each other.

I saw the scaling and well, I don't agree.

 

[Xearsay]

I agree. Not only did Darkseid who is supposed to represent a platonic form within plato’s archetypal reality, envelop the material world within his own shadow, but the New Gods themselves are described as living ideas along with representing absolute meaning and ultimate being to the material plane. All of which pretty much proves the New Gods are qualitatively superior to the material plane.

However the material plane shouldn’t even be 2-C in the first place but that’s a whole other can of worms.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizio33 @LuciferDC099 @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @PrinceofPein

What do you think about this?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I disagree for Deagon and Toddler's reasons and also mine but it is irrelevant since they summed up most of my thoughts

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you to all of you for helping out here then.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

@Elizio33 @LuciferDC099 @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @PrinceofPein

I apologise, but could you @ more people?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Kulf_Boba @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @Robo @VeryGoofyToddler @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Hykuu @KingEzran @Dark-Carioca

What do you think about this?

 

[LuciferDC099]

I agree with Deagonx.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

That doesn't make it qualitatively superior. Besides that, time in the Sphere and time in the Orrery pass simultaneously.

Very wrong, Gods view time in the Orrery nonlinearly. Thats kinda like the basic thing going on in the Sphere, they are outside the time dimensions of the Orrery.

As I said, being non-physical doesn't grant superiority either way, I was just pointing out that there's ample scans in both directions.

Ugh, i never even said that, dude. I am responding to your arguments, which seem to disect that specific tidbit and ignore the rest of the arguments. Which are integral to understanding these specific arguments

Yes, I read the scan. I wasn't claiming the scan never said the universe was remade.

You were, however, claiming that i simply made my own opinion on the scan. Which is not what happened

This isn't a rebuttal, this is just restating your opinion.

How am i even restating my opinion? Its a damn fact, a WoG becomes a solid WoG when the author is explaining shit that literally happened and happens in the comic itself.

You are claiming that my entire arguments are built on WoGs, which to some extent, yes, but they are already built on material from the story itself.

Regardless, the fact remains, Grant referencing a theory or a philosophy or a religion is not justification for putting that whole theory into the cosmology and treating it as canon.

But when it already exists within the source, then its not not-canon in the slightest.

For both Platonism and M-Theory we have concrete scans which reject many of their core premises.

I'd love to see them.

the Orrery isn't 11-dimensional.

Alright, now you are just putting words in my mouth.

Sure, but it isn't qualitiatively superior to the others. It's a regular 4-D spacetime continuum.

---

No, it's identical to what happened in Multiversity.

Huh?

Besides that, we know from the rest of the cosmology that this isn't the case. Every character that is above the Orrery is also above Earth-33, but none of them consider Superman fictional.

Definitely not. Are they above the Fictive Membrane? Do their crisises extend past the fictions of Earth-33? Do their dimensional existence extend past everything in the Material worlds and is confirmed to extend past Hypertime like the Gods?

If the answer is yes, you are flatout Low 1-C, no exceptions. You have exceeded the fictional dimension of 4-D spacetimes, and entered a higher dimension that views said 4-D spacetimes as a fictional tale.

The relationship between Earth-33 and the other universes is not that of superiority or R>F.

Its explicitly, and objectively the case when you have numerous author statements and a plethora of in-comic implications.

Superboy Prime literally went to Earth-33, by the way.

I mean yeah he kinda lives there. Earth-33 is Earth-Prime after COIE, the ending of FCL3W was that Superboy-prime woke up from a dream (the dream being the entire event) and his family and GF were horrified on what he became in DC Comics.

And according to a thousand confirmations from Grant, we know this is not just a universe among others but a literal higher dimension, which so far, i haven't seen any responses to.

This doesn’t seem like anything above Low 1-C. As a “structure” existing outside an inner structure(Orrery) and being outside that space-time isn’t necessarily warranted for a tier upgrade. By being outside that Space-Time would only be an infinity above a Low 2-C structure.

Very much! Now continue reading the rest of the post.

You’re being repetitive here just cut to the chase.

Uhh, let me.

That isn’t really warranted for anything given that it would have to have some sort of qualitative superiority rather than just operating in a different realm from the Orrery. Being perceived in different time in different dimension doesn’t seem like much to suggest an upgrade.

Oh yes it very much is, existing outside and beyond the time dimensions of the Orrery and having another time dimension on top of another dimension would certainly warrant for an upgrade, review the tiering system closely

Monitor Sphere is a couple of rungs above Heaven. Not to mention what you claim isn’t supported by your evidence for a “higher” dimension. It’s quite vague what you’re trying to conjure up here with these claims. Time works differently in the Monitor Sphere but it’s meaning follow the same route as the Orrery.

Missing the point, im using Mxys statement of Time existing all across the Multiverse and entities within the Multiverse being exterior to it, but seemingly existing in another higher time dimension as evidence of a layered temporal dimension.

Which would qualify said constructs as being higher dimensional.

He was guessing what they are.

The author has reconfirmed said notion, next point.

How is this reflected upon by the comics.

• Metron is the platonic concept behind all electric based phenomenon in the Material worlds | Inside the Mind of Grant Morrison
• In the Sphere, minor changes cause the entirety of existence to be remade. | JLA #15
• Upon entering, Batman noted everything started having a “thousand extra layers" of meaning | Batman #702
• Godheads within the Sphere interact with the material worlds through avatars and emanations | The Multiversity Guidebook: The Deluxe Edition
• When Orions Godhead died, an infinite amount of Orions across the Multiverse died | Final Crisis #6
• The Sphere is the source of the true power of Magic. | Justice League Dark Vol. 2 #10
  • Magic shapes all aspects of existence, with any altering with it resulting in the destruction of everything | Justice League Dark and Wonder Woman: Witching Hour #1
  • Magic is once again confirmed to be the most integral thing that shapes creation, with its destruction causing the destruction of everything | League Dark and Wonder Woman: Witching Hour #1
• Wonder Women of Earth-23 call the Gods “Universals" | Final Crisis #7
  • The one and only definition of a platonic universal

The rest are the same as Deagons points.

A different views based on dimensionality is not the same as suggesting “higher dimension.” It simply has a different view set because it's a different dimensional point because 2D would be overlooked as flat to 3D.

We agree!

Not expressed very well in the comics. Hence why you don't use these interviews unless the comics support them.

Reread the entirety of Multiversity and Final Crisis. And read my post

does not define him as “beyond” comics pulp fiction.

According to the numerous interviews with the author, it does. Again, non of you have actually addressed the scans, moreso just discredited them for being only established WoGs, and said the comics didn't make it clear. Which is an optimal response ofc

Again, i am okay with admitting i am wrong, but i need you guys to address the scans head on.

Viewing comic books from our perceptive isn't just 3-D to 2-D but also fiction and reality in the real-world context. Fiction can only go so far because it will always be “fiction.” So “higher mathematical space” in conjunction to viewing “fiction” has no correlation to each other.

What are you even talking about.

I saw the scaling and well, I don't agree.

Well yeah, reasons have to be given.

Sorry for being needlessly toxic, but i do have to respond to these with a little confusion considering they dont actually tackle whats in the post, moreso crop my arguments, nitpick little tidbits from the post, and ignore integral aspects of the cosmology.

So i have to say, maybe i am an oblivious supporter, i just need evidence to support that claim.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Very much! Now continue reading the rest of the post.

Reiterating the claim by saying read more is just plain annoying. Rather answer the point.

Uhh, let me.

Just disregard points you would just blatantly answer without giving a reason or meaning.

Oh yes it very much is, existing outside and beyond the time dimensions of the Orrery and having another time dimension on top of another dimension would certainly warrant an upgrade, review the tiering system closelyy

Existing outside a structure that follows 4-D linearity with a dimension that functions with its own time is not warranted for a tier upgrade. Within one infinite does not prock the tier you recommending.

Missing the point, I'm using Mxys statement of Time existing all across the Multiverse and entities within the Multiverse being exterior to it, but seemingly existing in another higher time dimension as evidence of a layered temporal dimension.

Which would qualify said constructs as being higher dimensional.

Time existing across the Multiverse goes to show that the Multiverse follows the linearity of geometric dimensions with the exception of 5D and 6D. Time exists everywhere where it follows the same rules within different realms and is not a layer of “temporal dimension.” It literally just is one unless you can prove “Time” is greater in one realm than the other. Your usage of “seemingly” will not suffice to support such a “higher dimension.”

The author has reconfirmed said notion, next point.

Unless you understood what I meant, please try to use context. Within the story he was “assuming” and we very well know their nature is still in disclosure. Being described as such does not mean they are which should be basic knowledge.

The rest are the same as Deagons points.

Like Deagon said he isn't eternal, perfect, or representative of the full concept. He died on several occasions.

We agree!

What was the point of you trying to make Plane Time seem like nothing to Cube Time when it just follows the simple logic of an additional dimension.

Reread the entirety of Multiversity and Final Crisis. And read my post

I have read it all and nothing you said happened in the “comics.” You're heavily relying on statements.

According to the numerous interviews with the author, it does. Again, non of you have actually addressed the scans, moreso just discredited them for being only established WoGs, and said the comics didn't make it clear. Which is an optimal response ofc

Again, i am okay with admitting i am wrong, but i need you guys to address the scans head on.

Why do you need a scan for that? Most of Multversity shows us that beings exist within the story as well as view the story play out. That's what metafiction is “a fiction within fiction.”

What are you even talking about.

You literally point out “higher dimension” due to the perception of Hypertime and the overexaggerated view of it to suggest that. When all it is that it's following the standard cardinals dimension.

Well yeah, reasons have to be given.

Sorry for being needlessly toxic, but i do have to respond to these with a little confusion considering they dont actually tackle whats in the post, moreso crop my arguments, nitpick little tidbits from the post, and ignore integral aspects of the cosmology.

So i have to say, maybe i am an oblivious supporter, I just need evidence to support that claim

Your point are the same. Each part is slightly extended from the smaller parts. I addressed all the points which aren't hard to follow because if it's an add-on then I'll address that and each of those “add-ons.”

 

[Deagonx]

Very wrong, Gods view time in the Orrery nonlinearly. Thats kinda like the basic thing going on in the Sphere, they are outside the time dimensions of the Orrery.

It isn't wrong, no. Godheads may have that perspective, but when characters go to the Orrery time continues to pass on Earth while they are there, at a rate which mirrors how long they spent in the Sphere.

You were, however, claiming that i simply made my own opinion on the scan. Which is not what happened

You did, yes. You hyperlinked the scan as saying "In the Sphere, minor changes cause the entirety of existence to be remade" but it neither says "minor changes" nor "the entirety of existence." That's very egregious editorializing. Several of your scans follow this pattern, you hyperlink them with words or phrases that aren't in the text. And it isn't paraphrasing or summarizing, there's nothing resembling the phrase "minor changes" in that scan so where did it come from?

For both Platonism and M-Theory we have concrete scans which reject many of their core premises.

I'd love to see them.

You already have. Scans that state that the New Gods were reborn, scans stating that the Sphere was created by Perpetua, scans that the Orrery is four-dimensional. Et cetera, et cetera.

Executor explained to you that the basic fact that New Gods have personalities and wills contradicts them being platonic. You were presented in another thread with a variety of information that disproved platonism and refused to concede. I won't try to personally convince you, whether you go on believing that the Sphere is actually platonic isn't important here, but it won't be accepted as a revision when it's so thoroughly contradicted by the evidence.

Definitely not. Are they above the Fictive Membrane? Do their crisises extend past the fictions of Earth-33? Do their dimensional existence extend past everything in the Material worlds and is confirmed to extend past Hypertime like the Gods?

If the answer is yes, you are flatout Low 1-C, no exceptions. You have exceeded the fictional dimension of 4-D spacetimes, and entered a higher dimension that views said 4-D spacetimes as a fictional tale.

You are misunderstanding the concept of Earth-33. Earth-33 is not "above" the fictive membrane, and the other earths of the Orrery are not "below" the fictive membrane. The fictive membrane surrounds Earth-33. Anything outside Earth-33 is outside the fictive membrane, this is just as true for the other earths as it is for the Sphere, for Nil, for the Overvoid. All of them are outside the membrane, but this membrane isn't superiority or additional spatial dimensions or an R>F difference.

You claim that I have not responded to your points, but you have in fact been avoiding mine. The fact that Perpetua doesn't consider the inhabitants of the Orrery fictional completely disproves an R>F difference.

Earth-33 views other Earths as fictional in the exact same way that Barry considered Jay Garrick fictional before crossing over into his universe. The only difference is that there aren't superheroes on Earth-33 and it can't easily be reached due to the membrane surrounding it.

So i have to say, maybe i am an oblivious supporter, i just need evidence to support that claim.

It has been provided, both in the cosmology blog and throughout the multiple discussions we had about this subject in the past. I don't anticipate being able to personally convince you that you are wrong, but the evidence is clear.

 

[LuciferX]

That's parallel reality>fiction lol. so many mental gymnastics in the OP. it was explicitly stated that New gods are 4d.

To sum up:

Multiverse is 3d +time (temporal d)

SoG- 4d (new gods)

Imps-5d

Monitors/Monitor Brothers/Hands/Perpetua - 6d beings

Sure, there are numerous ambiguous statements on dimensions in different comics, but still snyder's latest interpretation on cosmology indicates orrey is 3d again. new canon > old canon. It also makes scaling very inconsistent, there are more than enough explicit evidence there to prove cosmic tier beings' dimensionality.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Oh boy, this got needlessly long, again. (Yeah i kinda predicted it would, but ehh) Hopefully i put the kibosh on it here for once and for all.

Read this.​

Spoiler: Big one

Existing outside a structure that follows 4-D linearity with a dimension that functions with its own time is not warranted for a tier upgrade. Within one infinite does not prock the tier you recommending.

Now i require a solid reason why a higher temporal dimension is not a higher dimension.

I have made a claim, and backed it up in the OP, you have made a claim, and now require evidence on why your claim is valid. Its how debates work, brother.

It literally just is one unless you can prove “Time” is greater in one realm than the other.

I did, already.

Heaven exists beyond space and time, this has been backed up by being stated by the narrator, and been backed up by its placement in the cosmology as a SoG constructs. And then has been seen having a dimension of time of its own as displayed by them controlling and manipulating time within Heaven.

All of which being within the same run, written by the same author. Its blatant existence of a higher temporal dimension. And especially makes sense when increasingly exterior to Spacetime realms are confirmed to have a higher time dimension.

Within the story he was “assuming” and we very well know their nature is still in disclosure.

He was not assuming, there is no evidence of it being assumption. The author made it clear it isnt eitherway.

And no, we already know that in Final Crisis the Gods are abstract, in most instances of the Sphere in late 2000s and up is shown to be abstract.

What type of abstraction? Platonic, its been confirmed and hinted at. Is it a perfect representation of a platonic concept? Maybe. Does the main point of it defining all phenomenon inside the physical world still valid regardless if it is platonic or not? Spot on

Like Deagon he isn't eternal, perfect, or representative of the full concept. He died on several occasions.

Both you and Deagon have not responded to the two essays in the OP that clearly addresses the nature of Platonic concepts, and why they would still qualify as such even with these supposed “contradictions” existing.

That's what metafiction is “a fiction within fiction.”

Do i have to explain why that would be Higher-D?

What was the point of you trying to make Plane Time seem like nothing to Cube Time when it just follows the simple logic of an additional dimension.

We agree! Again! Cubetime is higher dimensional, Earth-33 is higher dimensional

but when characters go to the Orrery time continues to pass on Earth while they are there.

...Because they are in the Orrery

scans stating that the Sphere was created by Perpetua

The Sphere was molded by Hecate, who molded them using human unconscious. Which i already responded to why they are considered still Platonic, even by Platos own rules.

Eitherway, as i said, my main point isnt that the Sphere is a perfect representation of Platonic concepts, its that the Sphere very clearly follows the idea that the physical world is shaped and influenced by the conceptual and abstract one.

I am simply using the attributes of Platonic concepts that the sphere very objectively follows to support my claim, as well as bringing up their consistency with Platonic concepts

You were presented in another thread with a variety of information that disproved platonism and refused to concede.

I was provided and presented with none, zilch. Actually reading through most of our interactions, i have always been the one to post scans and back up my arguments, numerous times.

This seems to be a consistent theme with you and Xearsay from what i have read, where you constantly tell them this has been debunked and is six-feet under, with no evidence.

Seriously, i have no idea how that guy has the mental stability to argue for this long. Arguing sucks

whether you go on believing that the Sphere is actually platonic isn't important here, but it won't be accepted as a revision when it's so thoroughly contradicted by the evidence.

Alright, this will be the 3rd time where i ask for evidence.

You are misunderstanding the concept of Earth-33. Earth-33 is not "above" the fictive membrane, and the other earths of the Orrery are not "below" the fictive membrane. The fictive membrane surrounds Earth-33. Anything outside Earth-33 is outside the fictive membrane, this is just as true for the other earths as it is for the Sphere, for Nil, for the Overvoid. All of them are outside the membrane, but this membrane isn't superiority or additional spatial dimensions or an R>F difference.

I never made that claim, i was referring to the fact that the Earth-33 can only be penetrated by memes, narrative ideas. The essence and iconic idea that is Superman can cross the Fictive membrane and manifest itself within comics, but superman himself is fiction, he cant become real.

The fact that Perpetua doesn't consider the inhabitants of the Orrery fictional completely disproves an R>F difference.

And why exactly would that be the case? Are there any scans to suggest that Perpetua, a Sixth Dimensional entity above the Fifth dimension which views the entire Multiversity map as a product of imagination would be on the same level of existence as a 3-D Orrery level character?

Earth-33 views other Earths as fictional in the exact same way that Barry considered Jay Garrick fictional before crossing over into his universe.

Alright, this is the first actual argument to go against my claims.

No, Earth-33 is certainly not just a case of characters viewing other Universes within comicbooks. We explicitly know that it isnt the case considering it is the only world referred to as the Real world, we know it is Cubetime, which views Planetime, all comicbook universes, as a flat 2-D fiction that can be looked at nonlinearly and numerous other cases of clear and obvious higher dimensionality.

Like that Planetime/Cubetime thing is the most objective thing in that entire thread, its as clear as light and day.

Grant echoes this numerous times in his interviews, yes he believes the Real world exists in the same cosmology but he doesn't actually view them as real as the real world, he very clearly establishes a clear and obvious distinction here.

• “Scientifically, superstring theory says that maybe there are multiple universes, so there may be an actual Superman out there”
• "But right now, this is what Superman is good for. Comics can have an actual useful function in the world where we actually live. But it's not to pretend that they're real... or pretend there's a world where Superman actually lives. That world is here, and Superman comes in the form of a comic. It's the part of your mind that feels like Batman, this indomitable thing that stands up no matter how dark your life gets, and says no. That's the only useful function of these characters. And in that sense they're absolutely real." | Multiversity Turns the DC Universe Into a Quantum-Theory Freakfest

Why is Superman not real? Because, whilst explaining his vision for this M-theory Multiverse, Grant uses geometry to explain the multi-layered nature of Hypertime, Planetime is all comics and cubetime is the real world, the real world, is not fiction, its explicitly shown to exist beyond the fictional one and is stated numerous times to view it as a dimensionally inferior existence in both the comics and the interviews.

Why doesn't anyone who is > The Orrery scale?

• Because they are fiction.
• Because crisis events dont extend up to the Real world and are confirmed to exist within the fictions of the real world
• Because the fictive membrane doesn't allow fictional things to extend beyond the real world, only their ideas

but the evidence is clear.

Deagon, my brother, the only scan you have ever posted in this entire thread, was an outdated scan that you used to claim that Apokolips was a physical world, when there are an insane dump of evidence proving these are not physical in the slightest.

It genuinely pains me that people do not read this thread that i worked so hard on, and choose to instantaneously believe you when you have not posted evidence to against my claims, and have not actually went against the main points of this thread.

The main points, what are they?

1. Heaven existed outside and above time. And has a dimension of time of its own.
   1. That becomes a Higher dimensional existence, because it views the dimensions of time of lower universes, as just that, lower dimensions, with them having a higher temporal dimension of their own.
2. The Sphere is Platonic because it is called that way numerous times, and defines all phenomenon inside the Physical world. As shown when it is the source of then fundamental essence of the Multiverse. Regardless if the Sphere is shown as platonic or not, it is objectively true that the gods are concepts that define the Multiverse
   1. this is a higher dimension because it defines the very framework of the Multiverse.
   2. Example: Magic is the fundamental essence of the Multiverse. And the Sphere is the source of magic. Combine these with the stupendous amounts of evidence above, and my argument here is pretty clear. The Sphere > the framework defining a currently 2-A cosmology
3. The Multiverse works on M-theory and membranes, as shown in interviews and in comics. Tell me the word, i'll make an entire post going over all the evidence shown for the Multiverse working on M-theory, both Comics and interviews. And all evidence on why they are considering R>F
   1. These dimensions work on Reality > Fiction. Every higher dimension views the other akin to a comicbook. Earth-33 represents Cubetime as confirmed before. Cubetime is objectively treated as a higher dimension that looks down on all comicbook universes as fictional comicbooks.

And this should be it for now.

 

[Deagonx]

Now i require a solid reason why a higher temporal dimension is not a higher dimension.

I have made a claim, and backed it up in the OP, you have made a claim, and now require evidence on why your claim is valid. Its how debates work, brother.

You have been provided a reason, there isn't a higher temporal dimension. Time moves equally in the Sphere and on the Orrery.

...Because they are in the Orrery

I meant to write Sphere. When a character goes to say, Olympia, time doesn't freeze on Earth while they are there. If they spend a day there, they come back out and a day has passed on Earth. We have hundreds of examples of characters going to Apokolips, or Olympia, or even Heaven, and it has never been the case that they are independent of the Orrery's temporal axis.

The Sphere was molded by Hecate, who molded them using human unconscious. Which i already responded to why they are considered still Platonic, even by Platos own rules.

You did respond, and then I told you that you were quoting the writings of Carl Jung, not Plato. Executor also already explained this to you.

Eitherway, as i said, my main point isnt that the Sphere is a perfect representation of Platonic concepts, its that the Sphere very clearly follows the idea that the physical world is shaped and influenced by the conceptual and abstract one.

I am simply using the attributes of Platonic concepts that the sphere very objectively follows to support my claim, as well as bringing up their consistency with Platonic concepts

If we agree that it isn't platonic, then I don't know why you bothered attempting to argue that it was. If it's not a perfect representation of Platonism, then you should abandon the "platonism" angle entirely and focus on what you can prove to be true in the verse. As far as the physical world being shaped by the Sphere, that's definitively untrue. The Orrery's universes were created by the World Forger and Perpetua. The physical world influences and shapes the Sphere, not the other way around.

I was provided and presented with none, zilch. Actually reading through most of our interactions, i have always been the one to post scans and back up my arguments, numerous times.

This seems to be a consistent theme with you and Xearsay from what i have read, where you constantly tell them this has been debunked and is six-feet under, with no evidence.

Seriously, i have no idea how that guy has the mental stability to argue for this long. Arguing sucks

Alright, this will be the 3rd time where i ask for evidence.

If you want to pretend that you have been provided no evidence, that's your business.

And why exactly would that be the case? Are there any scans to suggest that Perpetua, a Sixth Dimensional entity above the Fifth dimension which views the entire Multiversity map as a product of imagination would be on the same level of existence as a 3-D Orrery level character?

I never said they were on the "same level of existence." I said that she does not see Superman as fictional. Do you have any evidence of Perpetua seeing Superman as fictional? Their interactions throughout the storyline strongly indicate that they are not. Your approach would imply that every realm above the Orrery sees the Justice League as fictional characters. This is clearly and definitively untrue.

Why doesn't anyone who is > The Orrery scale?

• Because they are fiction.
• Because crisis events dont extend up to the Real world and are confirmed to exist within the fictions of the real world
• Because the fictive membrane doesn't allow fictional things to extend beyond the real world, only their ideas

To be clear, I still completely disagree, but for the sake of argument, if you aren't even claiming that the highest beings in the verse (the Source, Perpetua, the Overvoid, Thought Robot, the Gods) scale to this idea of the Earth-33 being the real world and higher dimensional, what possible impact does this have on the cosmology? No one scales to this, even if it were sound.

Deagon, my brother, the only scan you have ever posted in this entire thread, was an outdated scan that you used to claim that Apokolips was a physical world, when there are an insane dump of evidence proving these are not physical in the slightest.

It genuinely pains me that people do not read this thread that i worked so hard on, and choose to instantaneously believe you when you have not posted evidence to against my claims, and have not actually went against the main points of this thread.

The people interested in assessing threads like these are knowledgeable enough about the verse and cosmology that they don't need to be shown the same scan they've seen 1000 times before, like the one from FC of Nix Uotan recreating the "platonic" New Gods or et cetera. The basic facts that everyone knows about characters like Darkseid disproves platonism unto itself, that doesn't really require me to post scans.

Heaven existed outside and above time. And has a dimension of time of its own.

1. That becomes a Higher dimensional existence, because it views the dimensions of time of lower universes, as just that, lower dimensions, with them having a higher temporal dimension of their own.

This is decidedly untrue given that time passes in the Sphere alongside time passing in the Orrery in hundreds of stories. But even if it were true, this would not grant qualitative superiority.

The Sphere is Platonic because it is called that way numerous times, and defines all phenomenon inside the Physical world. As shown when it is the source of then fundamental essence of the Multiverse. Regardless if the Sphere is shown as platonic or not, it is objectively true that the gods are concepts that define the Multiverse

It is objectively false that gods define the multiverse. It is objectively true, however, that the multiverse defines the gods. The Multiverse was created by beings above the Gods, and when the Sphere is cut off from the Orrery you know who dies? The gods. Not the Orrery.

The Sphere needs the Orrery to survive and is influenced and shaped by the beliefs of mortals in the Orrery. The Sphere depends on and needs the Orrery, not the other way around.

The Multiverse works on M-theory and membranes, as shown in interviews and in comics. Tell me the word, i'll make an entire post going over all the evidence shown for the Multiverse working on M-theory, both Comics and interviews. And all evidence on why they are considering R>F

1. These dimensions work on Reality > Fiction. Every higher dimension views the other akin to a comicbook. Earth-33 represents Cubetime as confirmed before. Cubetime is objectively treated as a higher dimension that looks down on all comicbook universes as fictional comicbooks.

And as proven, this is also not the case. Mxy explicitly states that the multiverse exists in four dimensions, with the fifth being imagination. Second, there is no R>F layers in DC. Even beings from the Overvoid consider the inhabitants of the Orrery real. Earth-33 was created by the World Forger, and yet, even he is not R>F above Superman. All of these beings treat the Orrery as absolutely real.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with Deagonx here.

 

[Antvasima]

So has this revision been rejected then, or is there anything that should be modified based on it?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Now i require a solid reason why a higher temporal dimension is not a higher dimension.

I have made a claim, and backed it up in the OP, you have made a claim, and now require evidence on why your claim is valid. Its how debates work, brother.

This is pretty evident you did not pay attention to what I said. I said time works differently in different realms not that it is a totally different higher temporal dimension where time transcends that of the Orrery.

I did, already.

Heaven exists beyond space and time, this has been backed up by being stated by the narrator, and been backed up by its placement in the cosmology as a SoG constructs. And then has been seen having a dimension of time of its own as displayed by them controlling and manipulating time within Heaven.

All of which being within the same run, written by the same author. Its blatant existence of a higher temporal dimension. And especially makes sense when increasingly exterior to Spacetime realms are confirmed to have a higher time dimension.

That has nothing to do with a superior temporal dimension. The reason is pretty self-evident if you understand the nature of the SoG. The Sphere is outside that space-time with its own variant which isn't said to be superior. It just has its own version that works independently of the Oreery. The residents would still follow the same time when entering the Orrery anyway and that time is flowing based on these ideas and concepts but it nevertheless was mentioned to be a “higher temporal dimension.” So please link where the authors said it because the comics certainly don't which is more important than the author's statement as previously mentioned.

He was not assuming, there is no evidence of it being assumption. The author made it clear it isnt eitherway.

And no, we already know that in Final Crisis the Gods are abstract, in most instances of the Sphere in late 2000s and up is shown to be abstract.

He was because he knew they were ideas that had to come from this “sort of platonic archetypal world.” We never had said they weren't abstract but rather they aren't platonic as described by you.

What type of abstraction? Platonic, its been confirmed and hinted at.

To be that Perfect Form you would have to be it on the level that it is it. None of the new gods function like this and they are just a smaller representation of a larger constant.

Is it a perfect representation of a platonic concept? Maybe.

If they were this wouldn't be a discussion. It's not a maybe they don't at all perfectly fit what Platonic is.

Does the main point of it defining all phenomenon inside the physical world still valid regardless if it is platonic or not? Spot on

They don't define anything in the material world in a way that they are the focal points. They rather represent each aspect of it, not the whole in general.

If you’re conceding that they are not Platonic then that would make your other claim somewhat better to believe.

Both you and Deagon have not responded to the two essays in the OP that clearly addresses the nature of Platonic concepts, and why they would still qualify as such even with these supposed “contradictions” existing.

The Perfect Theory of Form would not support a lot of these “contradictions.” These are a few listed out of the many other possibilities of contradiction that would be sufficient enough to go against them being Platonic.

Do i have to explain why that would be Higher-D?

No, because this isn't Higher D. Fiction with fiction is describing the nature of Metafiction which just adds awareness. They are still within the story they are reading. They're just viewing fiction in their fiction within Earth-33 which is surrounded by a fictive membrane. That is not higher D because Earth-33 is the same as all the other Earths.

We agree! Again! Cubetime is higher dimensional, Earth-33 is higher dimensional

An additional cardinal dimension is not the same as a higher dimension. Here's a simple logic I'm going by cardinality not ordinal numbers when I'm talking about dimensions.

 

[Elizio33]

The Sphere of the Gods is just outside the common space-time continuum, but that doesn't mean it has R>F layers above the Orrery of Worlds. For example, we never really saw the New Gods seeing the 3-D world as flat. The New Gods are 4-dimensional beings. As for Heaven, it's not beyond time since Allen Scott was able to manipulate time in it, which strongly implies that there is a temporal dimension in Heaven. I could go on but I don't want to eternalize my post, the point is that being outside of space-time doesn't automatically mean automatically R>F transcendence. There's a difference between being outside of something and being transcendent to something.

 

[Deagonx]

So has this revision been rejected then, or is there anything that should be modified based on it?

The basis of the change he wants to make is trifold. The first is the assertion that the Sphere has a higher temporal dimension. I don't believe it does as time passes concurrently between the Sphere and Orrery, and I'm not sure it would grant a higher tier even if it did. The second is that Earth-33 has R>F superiority over the rest of the Orrery. This is pretty clearly wrong IMO, Earth-33 has a fictive membrane around it, but otherwise it is an entirely normal universe without superheroes that exists on the same level as the rest of the Orrery. The third is trying to assert the Sphere as having superiority to the Orrery by the reference to Platonism in the Sphere in some of Grant's works and interviews, but given that the Sphere is definitively not platonic (not unchanging, not eternal, et cetera) and doesn't shape the Orrery the way he claims.

I, at the very least, full reject the revision and a lot of this is what we already discussed in the cosmology thread. I believe we would need a third staff disagree in addition to you and I to fully reject it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The Sphere of the Gods is just outside the common space-time continuum, but that doesn't mean it has R>F layers above the Orrery of Worlds. For example, we never really saw the New Gods seeing the 3-D world as flat. The New Gods are 4-dimensional beings. As for Heaven, it's not beyond time since Allen Scott was able to manipulate time in it, which strongly implies that there is a temporal dimension in Heaven. I could go on but I don't want to eternalize my post, the point is that being outside of space-time doesn't automatically mean automatically R>F transcendence. There's a difference between being outside of something and being transcendent to something.

I think this should be common sense.

 

[Elizio33]

As for Earth-33, as Deagonx said, it's just a normal universe with no superheroes and whose written stories influence the other universes in the Orrery of Worlds. It has no qualitative R>F superiority over the Orrery of Worlds since the Orrery integrates Earth-33.

 

[Antvasima]

As for Earth-33, as Deagonx said, it's just a normal universe with no superheroes and whose written stories influence the other universes in the Orrery of Worlds. It has no qualitative R>F superiority over the Orrery of Worlds since the Orrery integrates Earth-33.

Agreed.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Deagonx makes the most sense here.

 

[Elizio33]

As for the Bleed, it's not a 6-D space, it's a 4-D space.

The 6-D bottles in Wonderworld and the 8-D mazes mentioned by imps are from old JLA stories of Grant Morrison which seems to be outdated since they contradicts the material from Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV stories. The Orrery of Worlds is a 4-D construct. Even Grant Morrison himself seems to have changed his mind since, with the 4-D Bleed. Wonderworld only rotate at high speed through the 4-D space-time's borders.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Spoiler: Deagon

You have been provided a reason, there isn't a higher temporal dimension. Time moves equally in the Sphere and on the Orrery.

Proof requested. 5th time i've asked for evidence.

and it has never been the case that they are independent of the Orrery's temporal axis.

• The Sphere of Gods exists outside of the corporeal realms
• To travel between universes requires transcendence over space and time. Using transtemporal means
• Past the Speed force, matter becomes information
  • Wonderworld is at the limit to spacetime
  • Wonderworld is once again confirmed to exist at the edge of spacetime
  • Metron has also compared entering Wonderworld as re-entering Time
  • The Rock of Eternity exists within the material world, and exists outside of Spacetime
  • The Rock of Eternity is a pan-dimensional structure, touching all levels of spacetime
• Gods can read time from start to finish

Evidence, i need them to stop believing with all 9 scans above. I get some from Morrison, i stop believing in this notion.

The physical world influences and shapes the Sphere, not the other way around.

You vehemently insist on using this as an argument, when its so obviously not important and doesn't debunk a thing.

The Sphere is literal concepts, are you aware what concepts are at their cores? They influence physical things, the concept of evil is all evil, the concept of good is all good.

Again, Humans shape Gods, Gods shape humans. This philosophical look is intended to be paradoxical.

If you want to pretend that you have been provided no evidence, that's your business.

Should i record to you all of our interactions and actually prove to you just how baseless alot of the arguments made against me are?

I never said they were on the "same level of existence." I said that she does not see Superman as fictional. Do you have any evidence of Perpetua seeing Superman as fictional? Their interactions throughout the storyline strongly indicate that they are not. Your approach would imply that every realm above the Orrery sees the Justice League as fictional characters. This is clearly and definitively untrue.

The response exists all the way in the Fifth dimension, if the the blood of the entire Multiverse runs on Imagination, then Perpetua by literal definition has to exist in a higher framework then anything in the Multiverse.

We know Sixth-dimensional entities dont have the exact same level of existence outside of the Sixth-dimension, just like how Fifth-dimensional entities take smaller forms within creation.

There is no way you genuinely believe Perpetua is like 200x larger then Superman, i refuse to believe that.

This is decidedly untrue given that time passes in the Sphere alongside time passing in the Orrery in hundreds of stories. But even if it were true, this would not grant qualitative superiority.

6th time i have asked for evidence. As well as a debunk to the 9 scans above, when i see them, i'll believe them.

Mxy explicitly states that the multiverse exists in four dimensions

Yes! Which is exactly why several temporal dimensions have to exist within the Multiverse.

We already know the Sphere is exterior to the spacetime continuums in the Multiverse, man. How do you even make the argument that the scan where Zauriel and Sentinal manipulating time does not mean that a higher time dimension exists within Heaven? Or that the time dimension does exist within the Monitor Sphere, which is like several rungs of existence above both The Sphere AND the Orrery.

Come on dude, this is very clear.

To be clear, I still completely disagree, but for the sake of argument, if you aren't even claiming that the highest beings in the verse (the Source, Perpetua, the Overvoid, Thought Robot, the Gods) scale to this idea of the Earth-33 being the real world and higher dimensional, what possible impact does this have on the cosmology? No one scales to this, even if it were sound.

Never said that, i am referring to Crisis level entities or characters capable of destroying numerous timelines within the Sphere (Anti-Monitor and The Monitor as examples) any Sphere and up level character will undoubtedly scale beyond the Multiverse as well as what defines it, thus scaling above M-theory/Hypertime

Spoiler: Matthew

They don't define anything in the material world in a way that they are the focal points. They rather represent each aspect of it, not the whole in general.

If you’re conceding that they are not Platonic then that would make your other claim somewhat better to believe.

No, i still most definitely still believe that the Sphere is absolutely platonic in nature.

But honestly, if people genuinely think its SUCH a controversial addition even though i have seen 0 scans implying it is, in any way shape or form.

Then fine, i am dropping the Platonic concept argument for another thread (this does not mean that i am dropping the attributes of platonic concepts arguments though, SoG entities most definitely define the framework of the Physical world)

That is not higher D because Earth-33 is the same as all the other Earths.

I dont get this, i genuinely dont get it. Do you people ignore these? Maybe you haven't read them? Maybe they aren't appearing on yall screens? Maybe something is just not clicking here?

How exactly is it just “another earth" when the author himself has came out and explicitly said it isn't? Sorry man, it's just absurd at this point, stop ignoring the gigantic amount of evidence in your way in favour of a lower tier, its such a bad look on the community.

Spoiler: Elizio

The Sphere of the Gods is just outside the common space-time continuum, but that doesn't mean it has R>F layers above the Orrery of Worlds.

Now see, this is everything wrong with the responses to this thread, putting words in the mouth of the OP.

I want you all to go to the 3 dots above, click on go to “Find in page" and type “Heavens/the Spheres exteriority to spacetime gives it an R/F difference between it and the Orrery. You'll find none, because i never said it would

Come on guys.

The New Gods are 4-dimensional beings.

The scan literally just says that you'd require higher dimensional understanding to understand Gods. I have no idea how thay supposedly means that they are only 4-D entities

As for Heaven, it's not beyond time since Allen Scott was able to manipulate time in it, which strongly implies that there is a temporal dimension in Heaven.

Given the stupendous amounts of evidence in my claim that the SoG exists beyond time, and then a dimension of time is clearly shown existing within heaven.

My claim makes the most sense, a higher dimension of time exists in Heaven.

As for Earth-33, as Deagonx said, it's just a normal universe with no superheroes and whose written stories influence the other universes in the Orrery of Worlds. It has no qualitative R>F superiority over the Orrery of Worlds since the Orrery integrates Earth-33.

You reject the author going on an interview and telling us that the Cubetime exists above the worlds of the Orrery and views it as fiction? Alright, why? As all discussions need evidence against any claim.

Yep, pretty rushed response considering i have exams tomorrow. But thought i'd give one last hurrah

Deagonx makes the most sense here.

Welp, im gonna assume this means 3 mods disagree?

I believe these arguments were completely mistreated in this thread. I did 100% know this was gonna happen, and quite honestly, thought i'd go for it anyways.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

One last thing

The people interested in assessing threads like these are knowledgeable enough about the verse and cosmology that they don't need to be shown the same scan they've seen 1000 times before, like the one from FC of Nix Uotan recreating the "platonic" New Gods or et cetera. The basic facts that everyone knows about characters like Darkseid disproves platonism unto itself, that doesn't really require me to post scans.

I dont think i need to speak on why i believe this is unfair.

 

[Deagonx]

Proof requested. 5th time i've asked for evidence.

See: Any story involving someone travelling to the Sphere. Are you claiming that, in your perception, the various stories involving characters traveling to places like Apokolips and Olympia do result in them being cut off from the Orrery's progression of time, rather than time passing in both simultaneously at a comparable rate? Or are you just asking me for scans just so that you can ask me for them?

• The Sphere of Gods exists outside of the corporeal realms
• To travel between universes requires transcendence over space and time. Using transtemporal means
• Past the Speed force, matter becomes information
  • Wonderworld is at the limit to spacetime
  • Wonderworld is once again confirmed to exist at the edge of spacetime
  • Metron has also compared entering Wonderworld as re-entering Time
  • The Rock of Eternity exists within the material world, and exists outside of Spacetime
  • The Rock of Eternity is a pan-dimensional structure, touching all levels of spacetime
• Gods can read time from start to finish

Evidence, i need them to stop believing with all 9 scans above. I get some from Morrison, i stop believing in this notion.

None of those 9 scans indicate that when people travel to the Sphere that they are cut off from the temporal progression of the Orrery, the slight exception is the last one, but this only appear to apply to true godheads and isn't a feature of the Sphere itself. Doctor Manhattan can do the same thing, but he exists on Earth and doesn't have a "higher temporal dimension."

The Sphere is literal concepts, are you aware what concepts are at their cores? They influence physical things, the concept of evil is all evil, the concept of good is all good.

Again, Humans shape Gods, Gods shape humans. This philosophical look is intended to be paradoxical.

"Influence" is a weasel word here, and isn't pertinent to the point of contention. Regardless, this does not change the fact that the relationship between the Orrery and Sphere disproves the Sphere being platonic. There's nothing in DC about this relationship being paradoxical or anything like that.

The response exists all the way in the Fifth dimension, if the the blood of the entire Multiverse runs on Imagination, then Perpetua by literal definition has to exist in a higher framework then anything in the Multiverse.

We know Sixth-dimensional entities dont have the exact same level of existence outside of the Sixth-dimension, just like how Fifth-dimensional entities take smaller forms within creation.

There is no way you genuinely believe Perpetua is like 200x larger then Superman, i refuse to believe that.

Again, you are dodging the point. I asked you for an indication of R>F transcendence, and you have retreated to a generic "higher framework." This is the second time you've done this, so I do not hold out much hope for reining you back to the point if you intentionally avoid it even after my first time attempting to correct you. I am forced to interpret this as a concession that there is no indication of Perpetua viewing Superman as fictional. So with that, we can reliably confirm that no R>F layer exists between Superman and Perpetua, disproving this theory about Earth-33.

Alternatively, if you'd like to take a stab at proving that Perpetua sees Superman as fictional despite the extremely strong indications to the contrary, you are welcome to do so.

Yes! Which is exactly why several temporal dimensions have to exist within the Multiverse.

We already know the Sphere is exterior to the spacetime continuums in the Multiverse, man. How do you even make the argument that the scan where Zauriel and Sentinal manipulating time does not mean that a higher time dimension exists within Heaven? Or that the time dimension does exist within the Monitor Sphere, which is like several rungs of existence above both The Sphere AND the Orrery.

Come on dude, this is very clear.

The Monitor Sphere currently actually is treated as superior to the Orrery. The Sphere, however, is not. The temporal dimension argument falls flat due to what I have already described above. If you claim that you have no knowledge or awareness of the consistent treatment of concurrent passage of time between the Sphere and the Orrery, then so be it. I am not particularly interested in trying to prove it to you, because IMO it is obvious enough reading any of these stories that this is the case.

Never said that, i am referring to Crisis level entities or characters capable of destroying numerous timelines within the Sphere (Anti-Monitor and The Monitor as examples) any Sphere and up level character will undoubtedly scale beyond the Multiverse as well as what defines it, thus scaling above M-theory/Hypertime

Except the Anti-Monitor doesn't see the universes of the Orrery as fictional.

No, i still most definitely still believe that the Sphere is absolutely platonic in nature.

And this is a problem. If proving, definitively, that the nature of the Sphere directly contradicts Plato's works in numerous aspects does not dissuade you from making this assertion, what hope of there is ever making progress in this discussion? You're simply not being reasonable here. Platonic concepts can't "die." They can't be changed. They can't be created. They're eternal and unchanging. There are no exceptions to this, there is not a loop hole you can provide, like you attempted to in the OP. If you assert something that is not eternal nor unchanging as platonic, and refuse to concede it even after acknowledging that they're neither of those things, but still say they are platonic, you just can't expect anyone to take the discussion seriously when you're willing to blatantly deny reality just to try and upgrade a set of characters.

The scan literally just says that you'd require higher dimensional understanding to understand Gods.

See? It's happening again. The scan does not say "higher dimensional understanding" nor does it refer to "understanding gods." He said their brains need to be "four-dimensionally formatted" to understand temporally unique verb tenses like "transitive post-future" and "sub-elective non-person pluperfect." He used words like "qwev" "aqwall" "qwansequantly."

This isn't a small issue, NHT, you're blatantly misrepresenting a scan to suit your purposes. This can't just be handwaved as "oh I thought they meant that" or "oh this could've been what they meant." You don't get to decide that and lie about what a scan says to a public audience, hoping that they do not double-check to see if you're lying about it, like when you said a scan said "minor changes to the Sphere rewrite all of existence" in a scan that did not refer to "minor changes" or "all of existence."

You don't get to complain about a discussion being unfair whilst also conducting it in a way that is overtly dishonest.

You reject the author going on an interview and telling us that the Cubetime exists above the worlds of the Orrery and views it as fiction? Alright, why? As all discussions need evidence against any claim.

Evidence has already been provided as to why Earth-33 does not have R>F transcendence over the other universes. You have chosen to ignore it or pretend it was never given.

I believe these arguments were completely mistreated in this thread. I did 100% know this was gonna happen, and quite honestly, thought i'd go for it anyways.

The arguments have been debunked. This isn't some grand conspiracy to ignore your evidence or arguments, your reasoning is just flawed, your scans were misrepresented, and you have dodged or handwaved the various contradictions that your approach entails. Please do not play the victim here, it is seriously unbecoming.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I do not see hyperlinks.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Assuming this thread stays open (it'll not.) I will make a much larger response to all of this tomorrow after i finish my exam. Specifically addressing all points, starting with Elizios, considering he actually backed up his arguments with scans and evidence. Something that i respect, greatly

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

No, i still most definitely still believe that the Sphere is absolutely platonic in nature.

But honestly, if people genuinely think its SUCH a controversial addition even though i have seen 0 scans implying it is, in any way shape or form.

Then fine, i am dropping the Platonic concept argument for another thread (this does not mean that i am dropping the attributes of platonic concepts arguments though, SoG entities most definitely define the framework of the Physical world)

Alright I can see that. Believe what you want but if the others don’t and it’s the mass majority then obviously there’s something wrong with that notion.

I dont get this, i genuinely dont get it. Do you people ignore these? Maybe you haven't read them? Maybe they aren't appearing on yall screens? Maybe something is just not clicking here?

How exactly is it just “another earth" when the author himself has came out and explicitly said it isn't? Sorry man, it's just absurd at this point, stop ignoring the gigantic amount of evidence in your way in favour of a lower tier, its such a bad look on the community.

More so you’re oversaturating and twisting the context behind it. If not then more people will agree.

 

[Deagonx]

I do not see hyperlinks.

Hyperlinks do not determine the quality of an argument. The aspects of the cosmology we are discussing is well-trodden ground.

Assuming this thread stays open (it'll not.)

I don't see a reason to keep it open. Much of this was already discussed when we revised the cosmology the first time. The Sphere and the New Gods can't be treated as platonic if they violate the basic standards of platonism. Earth-33 can't be an R>F layer if the beings above it don't see the other Earths as fictional. The Sphere can't have a "higher temporal dimension" if it is routinely demonstrated to have a passage of time that is connected to the passing of time on Earth.

I understand that you don't feel persuaded by our arguments or evidence. I understand that you don't want to accept evidence that isn't provided to you in the form of a hyperlink. But it isn't our responsibility to convince you personally that you are wrong. Even with absolute proof against platonism having been provided to you in a separate thread by multiple people, you decided to make this thread anyway and attempt to advocate for incorporating a philosophy that clearly isn't accurately represented in the verse, and thus obviously can't be tiered from. If we cannot convince you of something as straightforward as "a being that can die or be created by other things clearly isn't a platonic concept" then what hope do we have of convincing you of anything else?

 

[Tarang123]

Neutral as of rn. If we’re trying to upgrade the SoG to tier 1, isn’t it stated somewhere that Heaven (or some place in the SoG) is a sort of higher dimensional time? Hell, I’m pretty sure it’s been shown that New Gods can tank higher dimensional weapons too

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Neutral as of rn. If we’re trying to upgrade the SoG to tier 1, isn’t it stated somewhere that Heaven (or some place in the SoG) is a sort of higher dimensional time? Hell, I’m pretty sure it’s been shown that New Gods can tank higher dimensional weapons too

Higher Dimensionality weaponry is not presented in the same manners of superiority existence and a complete transcendence of lower reality. It's just saying a dimension higher as in the Sphere to the Orrery as in 4D>3D.

SoG functionary of time is different in which place you are at but it doesn't transcend the time continuum of the Orrery. It just works separately from it, it's not this plane of existence with time being transcendent of the Orrery.