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J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Revision

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VeryGoofyToddler

VeryGoofyToddler

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Hi, guys, this post is in regard to pointing out and structuring of J.M. DeMatteis's Cosmology with what he has written in his stories.

Before we begin, I would like to mention that this specifically goes with what he had said within the story and a few linking points in some interviews, talks, or his own personal words regarding his stories.

Matteis Inspiration:

Matteis had many spiritual journeys and growth through his lifetime. More specifically he went to India and met the spiritual master called “Meher Baba” who changed his life and his views on things. This is heavily known to be the case since most of his “God” characters are designed after the man.

Meher Baba devoted his life after talking to an old lady in silence and has for over 40+ years. The biggest inspiration that Matteis took is his story called “God’s Speak” which pinpointed the origin of Creation and how it came to be. As such what we learn is that everything we see within Creation is nothing more than a dream or a false illusion of the true reality that is God and simply him alone.
Echelons of Wordings:
In case, you're confused with wording:
  • worlds = universes, realities
  • dimensions = parallel realities
  • Dimension = spatial dimensions
  • The Universe = All Creation, all of Existence, The Dream, Creation, Reality, Illusion
Creation Origin:
The origin of Creation started with the OM point which is used interchangeably with the Creation point. Where God springs his first urge of consciousness to question who he is. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #9)

The endless ocean of nothing or also known as the Sea of Brahma predates everything which again is nothing that expanded ad infinitium is a latent of Everything. This is why the entire Ocean is still God and when he first sprang brought about endless waves of light that turned the Ocean of nothing into the Ocean of love. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #9)

Thus Creation sprang forth from God own very breath. When God births Oneness that splits into duality forming Chaos and Order to represent all the forms of duality. Then came an explosion of not power, but of his love which brought about all Creation from the animals, universes, and all forms of life. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #6)

Yuga Cycle:
Matteis heavily drew inspiration from Hindu belief thus referring to how the cycle of Creation comes from the Hindu Yuga Cycle. (Doctor Fate Vol.1 #1)
  1. First Yuga(Satya) - The first age is perfection—Order sustained by the shadow of Chaos. Perfection for 1,128,000 years!
  2. Second Yuga(Treta) - The Second Yuga still finds man in harmony, the Universe in balance but something—unwanted—emerges—something…wrong.
  3. Third Yuga(Dwapara)- In the Third Yuga, Chaos influence is finally felt. It rises up to challenge Order. And suffering spreads its wings and flies across the Cosmos. And the Worm if madness began to burrow through men's minds. And so it remains—for another 864,000 years.
  4. Fourth Yuga(Kali) - Then comes the Kali Yuga…The Fourth and Final Age—when Chaos rises triumphant when the forces of Destruction grow in fury—when the Universe dissolves in the fire.
This cycle is meant to bring about rebirth after death as this happened countless amounts of times in the Night of Brahma when the Creator goes to sleep. When the Mahapralaya eats at Creation it dissolves into fire with Kali Yuga and Pralaya eating it all after the reign of Chaos ends. As a metaphor, Creation springs forth like a Lotus burning birth but over time shrinks and shrivels until it eats itself from the inside. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #3)

After the cycle of death Creation begets upon a new beginning, a new cycle an age of men beyond the previous. This Golden Age(Shamaballa) is meant to be beyond the opposite and control of Chaos or Order while still being insignificant to the vast Sea of Eternity. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #10)

Material Plane(Gross):
The first layer of the Dream is in the Gross plane where the most simple idea is material. Thus the Soul has a body to venture through things physically and with their five senses. Which is the first skin of reality as things such as the spiritual plane are next and everything here is the the the first life that the Soul takes. (Spectre Vol.4 #18). This is where the Soul begins its journey whether in rebirth or recreation, where one must assume mortal form. (Legends of the DC Universe Vol.1 #34)
Larfleeze story later expresses that dimension is used interchangeable with worlds. However, do note this was specifically within this story as the rest of the time, dimension is used interchangeably with higher reality, since the Universe is infinite and layered, each level has a specific dimensionality. Thus the Gross could reach up to twelve dimensions. God himself exist within any level of the Dream as he tries to wake us up from the God with everything as an expression of him, no matter the detail. Most Angels and the world above of reality and those planes transcends each other. The Gross is infinite but limited in its sense, that one plane is simply a fiction to another, one must cut through these layers or mask of reality to find God. (Green Lantern: Willworld Vol.1 #1). There are many planes across Creation that one must go through even Lord Indra of Fourth Heaven is nowhere near the final.

Funny enough, sometimes parallel world are world beyond material and places beyond limitation and sometimes new ones replaced by Maya. As such God can take you through every depth of any world as worlds are used interchangeably with planes as well. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #15)

Subtle Plane:

Some minor places goes beyond just what material can bring from our involution in the Gross Plane. Like souls wondering where they will end up in the Subtle places. A place of in between with the balance of karma with souls possessing possibilities of going on to the next. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 Annual #1)

Some things subtle are much more than physical. That some enemies of illusions keep coming back thanks to that. (Adventures of Superman Vol.1 #586)

Higher Planes(Mental and Beyond):

There are planes above the world we live in physically. That when a Soul lives it’s next life, it transcends beyond just the material plane as such Heaven. Some beings through their psyche can descend upon levels into worlds, heavens, et cetera. Each form in each level will be transcended until all endless forms are transcended. (Supergirl: Wings Vol.1 #1). Angels are thoughts and forms of the God that could be perceived through the veils and all levels
of Creation. (Green Lantern: Willworlds Vol.1 #1)

With each being in higher reality has a state of existence, of consciousness where even concepts like dimensions no longer apply, only levels of existence at that point. Remember the entire concept of dimension whether spatial or temporal or any levels of infinite limited to the aliens much less the Dreamer himself, who is us. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #24). All this is connected to the World Tree. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #38).

Creation(Maya/Dream):

Maya is the Hindu goddess of Illusion as the one illusion behind True Reality. She comes in many forms from all beliefs and can be seen as the Devil's figure in some Western beliefs. If God is the projectionist behind the Cinema then Maya is every version of the Movie as she is the Movie as well. She is the Shadow of God’s Light when he brought forth everything as her flesh gave substance to everything in the Dream. (Seekers into the Mystery Vol.1 #13)
Pralaya(Illusion/Sea of Brahma):

Before Creation and the Creator was only a sea. This metaphorical sea had many names to describe an infinite ocean of nothing before God manifested his consciousness. Apparently, Matteis told me she transcended Maya who is the Dream/Creation. This could mean that “Illusion” is the entire mind of God since he claims even Pralaya/Void is contained by God and is his unconsciousness. (Justice League Dark Vol.1 #39)

God:

Whatever you may call him; God, Primal Ocean, Smile behind the Universe, the Magician, Mother, Father, etc…..He is the one God beyond opposite and is all opposite where everything comes from his love.
Scaling:

Creation: High 1-B
There are infinite universes to which each reality is divided into levels and exists across a sort of Nexus called the Consciousness of God. The Dream contains sequences of dreams that become more real and transcend the previous to invoke a hierarchy of infinite between each plane/world in the Dream.

Which fits this standard:
Characters who can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence, each succeeding one completely trivializing the previous into insignificance, or more generally a space with countably infinite dimensions.
Click to expand...
The whole idea fits it perfectly. There are infinite dimensions, there is an endless hierarchy with each one level surpassing the previous one into insignificance.

Pralaya: Low 1-A
An aspect of God and the entire ocean of nothing. Completely transcends and is separated from Creation and it's an endless hierarchy. Transcends Maya(Creation), Creator(Aspect of God), and beyond all hierarchies of dreams(Limitless Planes).
This is the initial tier for characters who functionally transcend the rest of the Tiering System, and stand outside of any extensions of infinite hierarchies and sizes, to varying degrees and magnitudes. In more straightforward terms, this category could be said to be occupied by characters whose size and/or level of power cannot be reached by merely stacking bigger infinities on top of each other.
Click to expand...
Outside any extension of an infinite hierarchy and its varying degrees. No amount of Creation can fill the infinite unmanifest Void.

God: 1-A
God surpasses and transcends everything even Pralaya who is no more an illusion as is an atom. All of them combined together in any degree are fictitious and exist in his mind. His original state is the perfection of power, knowledge, and bliss and the one true soul reality.
Characters who can affect objects with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters who stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potencysection (Outerverse level+).
Click to expand...
To how Pralaya transcends Creation so does God to both her and Creation.
 
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ProfectusInfinity said:
Oh wait, hold on a second! I planned to review this later on, but I have to point out a red flag.

The infinite-dimensional statements from the Larfleeze storyline have long been refuted.

vsbattles.com

My Problem with Infinite Dimensional DC

Hello, As someone of you may have known, there was another thread regarding DC comics not being infinite dimensional as found here, after looking at the thread, It really made me think over how accurate infinite D DC as, as it's generally accepted as a sort of fact across every debating site. so...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

omniversal-battlefield.fandom.com

Infinite-Dimensional DC....Is Invalid

omniversal-battlefield.fandom.com omniversal-battlefield.fandom.com
Click to expand...
I literally explained it. Only parallel universes are used in conjunction with dimensions. The previous statements are of their own and do not mention parallel.

I mentioned this in the after thought as well as echelons of words. Please just read it throughly.
 
I just like to add to the wording, if you finish reading. Worlds is used interchangeably with both planes and dimensions. So not every mention of parallel universes means reality without hierarchy.

A higher world or just parallel in that context is not a neighboring universe as it is a higher parallel reality, and not just a reality of parallel next to the main reality/universe. The wording always changes up, plus he only ever really does this in Larfleeze in layers part with the Nexus Point/Creation Point. Some dimensions just refer to what lies across time and space which is indicative of spatial dimension with others meaning parallel neighboring worlds or entire levels of parallel realities.

All meanings were used during that story. So please don't equate every use of dimension = to parallel worlds. It's not the case for every usage of the word.
 
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I understand why people use hyperlinks for scans. It is easier to read.

However, it is a big big big big problem to me, personally, when I read a description of a scan as a hyperlink, click on the hyperlink, only to discover a big discrepancy between the description of the scan and the scan itself.

I read the 1-B proposal for creation and went to look at the scans used to support the notion of levels/layers, and I read two of them:

VeryGoofyToddler said:
Infinite bubbles for each mind to conjure up entire levels of dreams. Each infinite hell is a world of their own of their own making. Reality is used in conjunction with possible planes. (Adventures of Superman Vol.1 #583)
Click to expand...
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Gross is infinite but limited in its sense, that one plane is simply a fiction to another
Click to expand...
In the first, the word "level" is entirely absent. In the latter, there's nothing even remotely resembling this claim in the scan.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
Through spaces and stars and across all of Creation are infinite dimensions. Different parallel realities. (Highlighting spatial dimensions given Corps takes place in space and the universes are infinite in size and one beings embodies space and time) (Larfleeze Vol.1 #4)
Click to expand...
This definitely isn't referring to spatial dimensions. Every time the word "dimension" is used in this storyline it is referring to a realm. Such as in #3 where she says they created a "portal to your dimension" or "our dimension paid the price."

VeryGoofyToddler said:
since the Universe is infinite and layered, each level has a specific dimensionality.
Click to expand...
None of these say what you're claiming they say? In the final scan it just says he was "tumbling through dimensions." It doesn't say anything about each "level" having a specific dimensionality, and these are all disjointed scans from different stories. The first one doesn't even call the universe layered.

I could go on, but this is a big big problem. Your scans don't say what you claim they say in several instances, and this CRT is massive with dozens of scans. I don't really have the time to inspect all of them this thoroughly, but it's a breach of trust that so many of them plainly do not support your claims. That needs to be fixed before I spend any more time on this.
 
Deagonx said:
In the first, the word "level" is entirely absent. In the latter, there's nothing even remotely resembling this claim in the scan.
Click to expand...
This is going with the other scans as more information of each direct personal level of existence. While one may describe the level, the other the quantity of one plane. The whole scan isn't meant to be a stand-alone as the other scans are also meant to supplement each other. Like hierarchy isn't formemrly entioned, level is not as well because we use context-based evidence as planes rather than direct statements of “levels.” Like how we interpret the Universe as a Multiverse without the usage of the Multiverse as a direct statement. This is the route I was going for, persistent detail for direct wording is quite a disengage.
Deagonx said:
This definitely isn't referring to spatial dimensions. Every time the word "dimension" is used in this storyline it is referring to a realm. Such as in #3 where she says they created a "portal to your dimension" or "our dimension paid the price."
Click to expand...
“Every time” is not very fitting. It wasn't all used in the same context, as the context supporting dimension has a fitting narrative for particular scan, not all of them. If not, there are no levels of dreams, just a Dream since we've seen Dreams as one thing, if dimension was only fitting as one description for a parallel universe then you ignore the semantics behind interchnaganle words.
Deagonx said:
None of these say what you're claiming they say? In the final scan it just says he was "tumbling through dimensions." It doesn't say anything about each "level" having a specific dimensionality, and these are all disjointed scans from different stories. The first one doesn't even call the universe layered.
Click to expand...
Universe, Dream, and Creation all refer to the existence of the Illusion which is layered. I don't know why you made the same point previously which had no intention of looking through the whole idea. He was falling through each level and within each other world. I didn't randomly choose scans nor quote it verbatim without changing what it was saying.
Deagonx said:
I could go on, but this is a big big problem. Your scans don't say what you claim they say in several instances, and this CRT is massive with dozens of scans. I don't really have the time to inspect all of them this thoroughly, but it's a breach of trust that so many of them plainly do not support your claims. That needs to be fixed before I spend any more time on this.
Click to expand...
That's the problem. You didn't read all of it to understand. Seems like you nitpicking on circular scans with only the context of one of them which doesn't fit the narrative of the issue arc, or the intent this is a holistic view of Matteis and his storytelling to pinpoint his vision.
 
I should've foreseen this spiraling out, so let's focus on one scan at a time. For instance:
VeryGoofyToddler said:
since the Universe is infinite and layered, each level has a specific dimensionality.
Click to expand...
For now, let's focus on this final claim, that each level has a specific dimensionality. I pointed out that the scan which is hyperlinked as "dimensionality" only references the character "tumbling through dimensions" to which you said:

VeryGoofyToddler said:
I don't know why you made the same point previously which had no intention of looking through the whole idea. He was falling through each level and within each other world. I didn't randomly choose scans nor quote it verbatim without changing what it was saying.
Click to expand...
"He was falling through each level."

Okay, let's say I believe that the phrase "tumbling through dimensions" refers to falling through levels of existence. You made the claim that each level has a specific dimensionality. How does the notion that this character is "tumbling through dimensions [layers of existence]" support the claim that "each level has a specific dimensionality?" In what way does this scan refer to dimensionality whatsoever, such that we could draw that conclusion?
 
Deagonx said:
For now, let's focus on this final claim, that each level has a specific dimensionality. I pointed out that the scan which is hyperlinked as "dimensionality" only references the character "tumbling through dimensions" to which you said:
Click to expand...
Dimensionality is used in conjunction with dimensions. Different dimensionality = different dimension fitting the notion that dimensions has several meaning within the context of Doctor Fate, different level of worlds. The specifics remain within the story and I wasn't eluding to anything else.
Deagonx said:
"He was falling through each level."

Okay, let's say I believe that the phrase "tumbling through dimensions" refers to falling through levels of existence. You made the claim that each level has a specific dimensionality. How does the notion that this character is "tumbling through dimensions [layers of existence]" support the claim that "each level has a specific dimensionality?" In what way does this scan refer to dimensionality whatsoever, such that we could draw that conclusion?
Click to expand...
Surprising that Willworld mentions each level going deeper and more dreams within a dream. What specific dimensionality is mentioned happens to be supplementary to each level of the Dream having individual or collective dimensionality, which is yet to be told. Given Universe has been called infinite, endless then you get the idea.

There's nothing specific here, there just is something that the narrative does not dwell into detail, rather slightly touches on the subject. Some planes do not have dimensions while others do and wordings for those specifics are varied. I don't think it strays away from that idea of different dimensionality in level or else all planes are inherently the same.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Dimensionality is used in conjunction with dimensions. Different dimensionality = different dimension fitting the notion that dimensions has several meaning within the context of Doctor Fate, different level of worlds.
Click to expand...
I can hardly follow what you're trying to say. Am I to understand that you believe going to a different dimension means you are a different "dimensionality?"

VeryGoofyToddler said:
I don't think it strays away from that idea of different dimensionality in level or else all planes are inherently the same.
Click to expand...
Planes can be different in ways that have nothing to do with dimensionality.
 
Deagonx said:
I can hardly follow what you're trying to say. Am I to understand that you believe going to a different dimension means you are a different "dimensionality?"
Click to expand...
Yes, each plane is not the same. Some may be higher or lower, those specifics are within the context of the story. If falling through worlds(worlds being used interchangeably to parallel worlds of the same or higher plane) can vary. The specific is based on that there is, I was not pointing to any quantity.

If one world has six dimensions then the specificity is that it does have those six and the direct statement to affirm set quantity. The quantity I'll leave it for interpretation, the existence of dimension as specific to each world/plane/reality is what the specific is meant to illicitly imply. Therefore there is, then there for there are.
Deagonx said:
Planes can be different in ways that have nothing to do with dimensionality.
Click to expand...
Different in “levels, meaning, journey, or will making and shaping it to change it to fit what a person knows.” It works in ways and I don't at all imply that it could all be different, just there is some sort of difference in what one plane can bring.

Perhaps, my wording or highlighted word for the hyperlinks is quite atrocious but I wasn't being unfair with the interpretation.
 
Deagonx said:
I feel like there's a serious breakdown in communication here. I don't understand almost any of what you're saying.
Click to expand...
If it's vague it's meant to be. There are no specific numbers unless the scans mention it. The existence of differences pertaining to each plane would imply different dimensions, whether lower or higher.

What's so hard to understand how different plane can have different dimensions? Its specific dimensions are within the planes. If one plane transcends the other, what suggests the dimensionality is the same?

If you still don't understand, just read the last sentence.
 
If you still don't understand, just read the thread. I'm pretty sure you've read much longer posts and some stories that would take more of your time.

This thread isn't very long especially if you are already aware of some of the scans. I’m not asking for the impossible or rushing you. If you're not interested then there are more people who are and are ready to give their opinions.

I'm helping you by asking you to read it since my wording in the thread is very direct and not hard to follow. Just make use of what I've said in the thread and not these follow-ups.
 
All right, so I said I'd give full thoughts later on, but I wanted to express 2 things right off the bat. First off:
That's the problem. You didn't read all of it to understand. Seems like you nitpicking on circular scans with only the context of one of them which doesn't fit the narrative of the issue arc, or the intent this is a holistic view of Matteis and his storytelling to pinpoint his vision.
Click to expand...
Echelons of Wordings:
In case, you're confused with wording:
  • worlds = universes, realities
  • dimensions = parallel realities
  • Dimension = spatial dimensions
  • The Universe = All Creation, all of Existence, The Dream, Creation, Reality, Illusion
Click to expand...
Sorry, I utterly disagree with this approach. Unless I'm misunderstanding, the purpose of this CRT is to establish this notion that certain words always have set meanings and intentions throughout DeMateis's stories? This honestly sounds like a mix of appeal to tradition and hasty generalization. I saw this a lot under the last thread, where several different people were saying that my interpretation was wrong because it "goes against J.M.'s themes." When evaluating tiering proposals, we should look to the source texts to derive evidence, and make sure statements are backed up by contexts. Often, there will be scans too vague to use for tiering, and when the issue of lack of clarity is raised, the debate will devolve into semantics and "authorial intent."

That seems to be the intention behind this CRT on a larger scale, where you cite a lot of real world philosphies and do a study into the life of J.M. DeMatteis to solidify that all interpretations of his scans would lean in a certain direction (the one that leads to upgrades). That's just an appeal to probability: in other words, claiming that because an interpretation exists, it can be asserted. As even you have acknowledged, there's no single interpretation to any of this stuff. However, an interpretation is only viable when it reliably dismisses alternate interpretations. It's not like this is a literary class, so it's not a matter of who can interpret the author's intent best. If a positive claim is asserted, a heavy burden of proof is placed on the person making the claim to prove there's enough supporting evidence to derive a conclusion. We should focus on the scans themselves and context surrounding them rather than what J.M. "generally means to say" in his works.

Secondly, I have to explain the problem I had before with "layers of dreams" because lots of people misunderstood it last time and felt I was being nitpicky. Read this part of the R>F standards very carefully and thoroughly:
In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

In edge cases, where it is unclear whether a depiction qualifies as truly viewing a world as fiction, the most important deciding factor is whether the depiction justifies an assumption of qualitative superiority for the same reasons as the above mentioned general cases. I.e. one should ask oneself: Is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?

However, there are also factors that can speak against Reality-Fiction Transcendence, even if all of the above is given. Those include:

  • The realities are portrayed like parallel universes or otherwise as having just a finite difference in scale or having a similar nature.
  • The characters from both realities are generally being portrayed as comparable in power
  • The author character completely live in the fictional medium themselves. For example the author character might have a book that contains the world, but the author themselves are also a character in it and don't exist outside it any more than other characters of that world.
  • The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it. Such instances often have to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis to judge how they are best rated.
Additionally, the showings should be reasonably clear. Vague cameos of author avatars, hints at a "player" character without further context or similar things should be disregarded. In such cases it simply can't be sufficiently ascertained that the world is viewed as true "fiction". In some cases it's not even clear if it's more than a simple nod to the audience or humorous instance of Breaking the Fourth Wall, which is not to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...
All of this site's standards exist on a purely case-by-case basis. However, the first aspect you generally need to gain R>F is the depiction of a medium through which a cosmology could be seen as fiction. Note that the standards say directly imply. Some people were giving me flak when I said "the depiction of a medium for potential R>F is only a basis, you need more evidence," and I received responses like "that's not how the standards work, you're just being stingy. These things are literally depicted as dreams." But hey, if quoting the standards verbatim isn't enough to get my point across, I really don't know what to say.

Secondly, in edge cases where you can't really determine if a real world qualifies for R>F, the pressing question is always "is the unreality depicted in such a way where no matter how much power is exerted in it, the real world will view it as zero?" Back to the main topic, let me visualize what I make of the DeMatteis cosmology.
You_Doodle_2023-12-07T22_31_31Z.jpg
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I remember that last time, a few people were pestering me about how I was ignoring the blatant R>F that the collective uncoscious/heaven have over creation, and that God has over everything else. Let me reiterate: yes, I acknowledge that the collective unconscious/heaven have qualitative superiority over creation, and God has qualitative superiority over the two metaphysical planes. That's quite literally recognized under our tiering pages.
Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
Tiering: The Divine Presence is 1-C, as it transcends all of Creation and Pralaya infinitely, holding them as mere parts of its dream.
Click to expand...
However, that's not the point here. The argument is that there is an infinite hierarchy within the 2 metaphysical realms, and each higher layer of the hierarchies have qualitative superiority over lower ones. So let me clarify something so we don't repeat the last threads missteps: please do not persist with evidence for the metaphysical planes being more real than the multiverse, or God being more real than the metaphysical planes. The universe is a hologram to them, yada yada... we get it, that's why they're tier 1 and we accept it. What we're looking at strictly is the hierarchies themselves, and how the layers relate to each other within the hierarchy. Let me repeat: we're not looking out how the metaphysical planes relate to creation or god, but only how the layers within their "hierarchies" relate to each other.

That aside, like I was saying before, this is one of those edge cases for R>F. Basically, the evidence so far is:
  • They're called "layers of dreams."
  • They're sometimes depicted as higher planes, with an author statement supposedly confirming that they transcend one another.
  • Going to a "higher plane" is compared with entering a "deeper dream."
The problem is, "higher layers of dreams" and "deeper dreams" are quite vague. Is there anything at the bare minimum, confirming that dreams are actually physically contained inside dreams (as I said before, we're talking about how the layers relate to each other. We already know the metaphysical planes as a whole contain creation as a dream, and God views the planes as a dream himself)? At any rate, in edge cases for R>F, the underlying question is always "is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?"

Anyway, as I already admitted, I haven't actually read this new CRT. I'm just clarifying a few things beforehand. I hope I haven't misinterpreted anything already.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
Sorry, I utterly disagree with this approach. Unless I'm misunderstanding, the purpose of this CRT is to establish this notion that certain words always have set meanings and intentions throughout DeMateis's stories? This honestly sounds like a mix of appeal to tradition and hasty generalization. I saw this a lot under the last thread, where several different people were saying that my interpretation was wrong because it "goes against J.M.'s themes." When evaluating tiering proposals, we should look to the source texts to derive evidence, and make sure statements are backed up by contexts. Often, there will be scans too vague to use for tiering, and when the issue of lack of clarity is raised, the debate will devolve into semantics and "authorial intent."
Click to expand...
The wording of each word changed so many times. To say one word is indicative of just one definition is illogical to believe. We've clearly seen different wording has the same defintion and vice versa. Even if it's flowery, it can still be understood through the setting and context which isn't an appeal to tradition something being said is ultimately true because there are many forms of understanding, not just one bland way because his stories are written slightly different to mean the same thing. I don't understand where this fallacy is meant to denote some sort of error with wording.

The scans aren't vague, our interpretation is thus what we formed is what we think. Even if they were vague, they're meant to be but they are explained within context and you may not fully comprehend until unless you read them in detail or multiple times. Most people who said you didn't understand or went against his point has nothing to do with this. Plus, I made sure to make as many points to support one topic to make sure it wasn't too vague unless you interpret every scan in the same paragraph as different.

I would ignore that section of the thread because it's not very much the same. It's to easier help understand and I made sure to clarify it later. I don't believe I made it so unbearthable at no one could understand it.
ProfectusInfinity said:
That seems to be the intention behind this CRT on a larger scale, where you cite a lot of real world philosphies and do a study into the life of J.M. DeMatteis to solidify that all interpretations of his scans would lean in a certain direction (the one that leads to upgrades). That's just an appeal to probability: in other words, claiming that because an interpretation exists, it can be asserted. As even you have acknowledged, there's no single interpretation to any of this stuff. However, an interpretation is only viable when it reliably dismisses alternate interpretations. It's not like this is a literary class, so it's not a matter of who can interpret the author's intent best. If a positive claim is asserted, a heavy burden of proof is placed on the person making the claim to prove there's enough supporting evidence to derive a conclusion. We should focus on the scans themselves and context surrounding them rather than what J.M. "generally means to say" in his works.
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I'm sorry I didn't mention most philosophies. I only went over some small parts during the beginning as when the inspiration came from and to explain the very conceptual ideas. That was about it and nothing else.

Interpretations are meant to vary but my statement although not quoted word for word, if you read it deeply is supported by the scans. Even the ones that sound confusing since it's not just the direct statement I was looking for but context-based ideas that pertain not to one scan but the entire story. The specifics of individual scans are just to tone it down without just listing every page of the comics.

You've literally said the same things over and over again on interpretation like “It's not meant to be whose interpretation is best” which is just a weird statement as if you're trying to claim that my whole thread is unsupported. Where exactly did I drive away from the scans that aren't “context-based?” I never also formerly expressed this is what Matteis is meant to say, and all I mentioned of Matteis was his inspiration and all of this was him as the main writer. You're bringing up points that are baseless and have little meaning to the thread.
ProfectusInfinity said:
Secondly, I have to explain the problem I had before with "layers of dreams" because lots of people misunderstood it last time and felt I was being nitpicky. Read this part of the R>F standards very carefully and thoroughly:
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“People misunderstood” is very bold to say. It seems the general consensus favored it better. I'm not appealing to popularity rather you dismissing a large portion of people who can also read and interpret otherwise. I do believe they are R>F and the story has vaguely mentioned it, just not verbatim to what Wiki said.
ProfectusInfinity said:
All of this site's standards exist on a purely case-by-case basis. However, the first aspect you generally need to gain R>F is the depiction of a medium through which a cosmology could be seen as fiction. Note that the standards say directly imply. Some people were giving me flak when I said "the depiction of a medium for potential R>F is only a basis, you need more evidence," and I received responses like "that's not how the standards work, you're just being stingy. These things are literally depicted as dreams." But hey, if quoting the standards verbatim isn't enough to get my point across, I really don't know what to say.
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I feel like you're mixing what the others have said. I've read their point and it seems to make more sense than what you said. Then again, it's subjective but I rather you prove more on what was wrong in my interpretation. You're just talking about how my interpretation seems to notion that of the philosophy and intent of the author of perhaps that I focused too much on where I supposedly indirectly notion that you misunderstood too much when I was only focused on expanding why I see it that way rather than say you're flat out wrong.
ProfectusInfinity said:
Secondly, in edge cases where you can't really determine if a real world qualifies for R>F, the pressing question is always "is the unreality depicted in such a way where no matter how much power is exerted in it, the real world will view it as zero?" Back to the main topic, let me visualize what I make of the DeMatteis cosmology.
I remember that last time, a few people were pestering me about how I was ignoring the blatant R>F that the collective uncoscious/heaven have over creation, and that God has over everything else. Let me reiterate: yes, I acknowledge that the collective unconscious/heaven have qualitative superiority over creation, and God has qualitative superiority over the two metaphysical planes. That's quite literally recognized under our tiering pages.
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Ok. That should be enough.
ProfectusInfinity said:
However, that's not the point here. The argument is that there is an infinite hierarchy within the 2 metaphysical realms, and each higher layer of the hierarchies have qualitative superiority over lower ones. So let me clarify something so we don't repeat the last threads missteps: please do not persist with evidence for the metaphysical planes being more real than the multiverse, or God being more real than the metaphysical planes. The universe is a hologram to them, yada yada... we get it, that's why they're tier 1 and we accept it. What we're looking at strictly is the hierarchies themselves, and how the layers relate to each other within the hierarchy. Let me repeat: we're not looking out how the metaphysical planes relate to creation or god, but only how the layers within their "hierarchies" relate to each other.
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I’m sorry it's every evident level in Creations are the planes. There aren't two metaphysical planes or it ends in Heaven. It keeps going until all mask of reality(Creation) is unveiled at every level. The hierarchy is in reference to each other and what level works on one is transcended by what works in the next which is: “but only how the layers within their hierarchies relate to each other.”

Plus, more real is in reference to deeper layers of the dream. The next part is more real, as it closer to God and in relation to the previous dream is entirely its own separate existence.
ProfectusInfinity said:
That aside, like I was saying before, this is one of those edge cases for R>F. Basically, the evidence so far is:
  • They're called "layers of dreams."
  • They're sometimes depicted as higher planes, with an author statement supposedly confirming that they transcend one another.
  • Going to a "higher plane" is compared with entering a "deeper dream."
The problem is, "higher layers of dreams" and "deeper dreams" are quite vague.
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They're not. They've been mentioned in only that context with us seeing how they work. Heaven isn't the Material and beyond whatever it has. They aren't on the same plane or else different levels shouldn't even be mentioned, if there is nothing more than just “vague.”
ProfectusInfinity said:
Is there anything at the bare minimum, confirming that dreams are actually physically contained inside dreams (as I said before, we're talking about how the layers relate to each other. We already know the metaphysical planes as a whole contain creation as a dream, and God views the planes as a dream himself)? At any rate, in edge cases for R>F, the underlying question is always "is it by nature of the depiction likely that nothing that happens in the 'fictional world', no matter how powerful, could affect the 'real world' due to the fictional nature of the former?"
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The world has been mentioned as an existence beyond our illusion. Now as for your question, the level at which interaction happens comes when one thing at a higher level is that everything that know of previously is just an illusion and means nothing in the next, and keeps going until True Reality is found.
ProfectusInfinity said:
Anyway, as I already admitted, I haven't actually read this new CRT. I'm just clarifying a few things beforehand. I hope I haven't misinterpreted anything already.
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You sound like how DT does with Ultima and I rather you just read it and then ask these questions. I'm pretty sure all you said would have been answered by the CRT. It's pretty evident you just keep mentioning “other threads or hope you make more sense of R>F.” When all that is required is that you read it.
 
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Is there any difference between this one and the last one, aside the fact that this one is well articulated?
 
Da3ggman said:
Well, let's see if the mods steamroll the CRT this time

Definitely agree.
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I will respond to each of their points. They like direct attention to detail or everything is wrong in their eyes. So the arguments just come from nitpicking particular scans needing for direct statement that I made rather than linking together that I just reworded it to have the same meaning. It
 
It might take me a while to get to this, but I have one last thing to ask in advance.
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Larfleeze story later expresses that dimension is used interchangeable with worlds. However, do note this was specifically within this story as the rest of the time, dimension is used interchangeably with higher reality, since the Universe is infinite and layered, each level has a specific dimensionality. Thus the Gross could reach up to twelve dimensions. God himself exist within any level of the Dream as he tries to wake us up from the God with everything as an expression of him, no matter the detail. Most Angels and the world above of reality and those planes transcends each other. The Gross is infinite but limited in its sense, that one plane is simply a fiction to another, one must cut through these layers or mask of reality to find God. (Green Lantern: Willworld Vol.1 #1). There are many planes across Creation that one must go through even Lord Indra of Fourth Heaven is nowhere near the final.
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I'm a little confused here. Are you using the scans from the Larfleeze storyline to support infinite universes, infinite dimensions, or both? I've been getting mixed messages regarding this.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
It might take me a while to get to this, but I have one last thing to ask in advance.


I'm a little confused here. Are you using the scans from the Larfleeze storyline to support infinite universes, infinite dimensions, or both? I've been getting mixed messages regarding this.
Click to expand...
The wording is used to indicate many meanings. Thus realms, planes, and worlds are used interchangeably with dimensions. The same semantics behind “planes” have also been used interchangeably with worlds and universes.

There is some evident truth to spatial since the infinite universe and boundless dimensions in one sentence said by a person that embodies time and space would make more sense if she talks about time and space. Plus “boundless” correlates with heavy on space and it's either saying:
A. The Universe is infinite and thus boundless and the Universe contains time-space of 4D.
B. Each universe holds boundless dimensions in size comparable to a plane.
C. The Universe has infinite dimensions because it itself is infinite and the dimensions are boundless(given Matteis uses uncountable, innumerable, infinite, and countless interchangeably.)

I think it can be a mix of all three. Some scans are very direct in that dimensions = alternate timelines/worlds. Others are not so clear and seem to point to spatiality. The quantity is never specified but given infinite has been used so much, if each universe = dimensions of 4D then the totality of the Material Plane would range from 2-A or more. Combine each plane above the material then High 1-B for the totality of Creation.
 
Here is more evidence of QS (totally not copy pasted)
At the beginning of the story, Lucas experienced dreams, reminiscent to his past, constantly. This certain point of events is part of the premise of the story. These dreams were at first insubstantial, but later on, it reveal to held impact in the story. These dreams is actually layered, with dreams being qualitatively superior than the last.
Issue # 13, P. 12
“The Magician's the one who's interested in ripping the truth out of you... In stripping the layers of dreams and dragging you into a light that's so bright--it will blind you and burn you alive.„

It is further reiterated with another definition such as it being called levels of existence.
Issue # 13, P. 10
“You've seen for yourself, these past weeks there are levels of existence far beyond what you've know.„

Dreams aren't merely simple "dreams", higher dreams can replace what is reality and become more real to it, and there would be another higher dream above it, as shown here; Dreams was able to replace reality, when it was only being viewed as fiction, and afterwards another one can ascend to another higher dream if allowed by God
1
2
3
4
5
6
7

This should explicate and elucidate the fact that the difference between the dreams are qualitatively superior. These dreams are, of course, still part of Maya. As she represent all things in creation. The size of Dreams aren't really specified or stated, however it can contain uncountable universes. This should scale to all other dreams, as there's no invalidations nor statements against it, there's actually more supporting it than against it.
Issue # 10, P. 13
“Then the dreams began: naked, I drift through uncountable universes, falling through the heart of exploding stars. Goddesses of unspeakable beauty would press me against their breasts, gods of terrible power would pierce me with their swords.„

Beyond these layers of dreams, or to be exact; beyond Maya, would be the the True Reality; God. God is the being that emanated these dreams.
Issue # 10, P. 15
“He had come. The singer whose song seduced my heart. The poet whose words brought forth the world. The Reality from which emanated all my cherished dreams. And He flew with me across eternity, danced with me down into time's timeless depth. Silently he gave his love and silently I accept it.„
This is further supported the fact that stripping the layers of dreams would result of being absorbed into God's existence.
Issue # 13, P. 12
“The Magician's the one who's interested in ripping the truth out of you... In stripping the layers of dreams and dragging you into a light that's so bright--it will blind you and burn you alive.„
 
Robo432343 said:
Here is more evidence of QS (totally not copy pasted)
At the beginning of the story, Lucas experienced dreams, reminiscent to his past, constantly. This certain point of events is part of the premise of the story. These dreams were at first insubstantial, but later on, it reveal to held impact in the story. These dreams is actually layered, with dreams being qualitatively superior than the last.
Issue # 13, P. 12
“The Magician's the one who's interested in ripping the truth out of you... In stripping the layers of dreams and dragging you into a light that's so bright--it will blind you and burn you alive.„

It is further reiterated with another definition such as it being called levels of existence.
Issue # 13, P. 10
“You've seen for yourself, these past weeks there are levels of existence far beyond what you've know.„

Dreams aren't merely simple "dreams", higher dreams can replace what is reality and become more real to it, and there would be another higher dream above it, as shown here; Dreams was able to replace reality, when it was only being viewed as fiction, and afterwards another one can ascend to another higher dream if allowed by God
1
2
3
4
5
6
7

This should explicate and elucidate the fact that the difference between the dreams are qualitatively superior. These dreams are, of course, still part of Maya. As she represent all things in creation. The size of Dreams aren't really specified or stated, however it can contain uncountable universes. This should scale to all other dreams, as there's no invalidations nor statements against it, there's actually more supporting it than against it.
Issue # 10, P. 13
“Then the dreams began: naked, I drift through uncountable universes, falling through the heart of exploding stars. Goddesses of unspeakable beauty would press me against their breasts, gods of terrible power would pierce me with their swords.„

Beyond these layers of dreams, or to be exact; beyond Maya, would be the the True Reality; God. God is the being that emanated these dreams.
Issue # 10, P. 15
“He had come. The singer whose song seduced my heart. The poet whose words brought forth the world. The Reality from which emanated all my cherished dreams. And He flew with me across eternity, danced with me down into time's timeless depth. Silently he gave his love and silently I accept it.„
This is further supported the fact that stripping the layers of dreams would result of being absorbed into God's existence.
Issue # 13, P. 12
“The Magician's the one who's interested in ripping the truth out of you... In stripping the layers of dreams and dragging you into a light that's so bright--it will blind you and burn you alive.„
Click to expand...
Nice find! I might even find myself agreeing with the CRT before I eventually get to this (which hopefully won’t take long with finals and all).
 
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