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Dc DeMateis cosmology and yet PART 2

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Brahmatman

Brahmatman

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Hello again everyone, in the first part of my thread the asset fell very much and it became difficult to understand the text due to the many comments in it + there are some new arguments that will help clarify the situations in this cosmology. Some good guys offered me to do the second part, I hope no one will mind?

In the previous thread I made a small analysis of the cosmological component of the hierarchy of dreams and souls creating their own, individual heavens, where the concept of higher planes does not matter + there was evidence of the presence of any spatial coordinates, although this does not apply to the Demateid, but still, the following can be added to a certain cosmology

Link to the first part: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-demateis-cosmology-and-yet.161329/post-6200533


New information regarding DeMatteis cosmology and clarification of the principle of operation of dimensional coordinates present in the comics of this author:

There can be twelve dimensions in the universe. The world of these beings is neither reality, nor unreality, nor dream, but something more than reality.
The laws of logic and physics do not apply to these beings. Reality is deep enough to be a dream. The universe is a hologram projected by the mind. They vibrate at different frequencies and can descend into the interface, the tunnel between his level of existence and that of Superman. They are not aliens, but beings of a deeper level of reality. The word "dimension" is too limited to fully reflect their nature.

There Are Limitless Planes of Existence

Update:

The soul is infinite and eternal. There are as many Hells as there are Nerons. When you wake up from sleep, you replace one dream with another. And at the basis of all reality, dreams and universes lies the Void that wafts through the minds of gods and people, this is where universes begin and where they end. The soul in this emptiness begins to dissolve.

That is, they directly tell us that when you wake up from sleep, you will still find yourself in another dream, since all creation is a dream

Superman: The Man of Tomorrow #16​


Source Superman: The Kansas Sighting #2
Spectre v4 #27


Agree: @Setsuna_tenma, @JTGamer96, @PrinceStories, @Robo432343, @VeryGoofyToddler, @Im_Jason_Voorhees , Minos_the_Judge, Da3ggman, Trigger, Kenny Mccormick 0v0, Samael_010, henryzx900ruly, Lord_Farquaad69420, Im_Jason_Voorhees, OlafThorsson, Da_Lunge_Fish, Deymoc13, LordQDW, EmperorRorepmeTwo (19)
disagree: PrinceofPein, ProfectusInfinity (2)
Neutral:
 
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I'll wait for more posts; also one of the links; the "Limitless planes of Existence" one seems to have me blocked from viewing it. But I'll see whom those who helped out with cosmology revisions might think.
 
Brahmatman said:
There are limitless planes of existence
Click to expand...
These scans do not work.

Aside that nothing else really serves to prove what you are trying to get here.
They are a reality like a dream cause they are born from human consciousness as humans are also from there own.
So I am kind of confused what you are proposing here with the scans you have.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Aside that nothing else really serves to prove what you are trying to get here.
They are a reality like a dream cause they are born from human consciousness as humans are also from there own.
So I am kind of confused what you are proposing here with the scans you have.
Click to expand...
Yes, even more real than reality. And a dream can be a product of another dream
 
PrinceofPein said:
These scans do not work.
Click to expand...
Strange
135_08.jpg
 
PrinceofPein said:
Because it does not mean high 1-B.
H1B is infinite spatial dimensions or its equivalent i.e. infinite levels with each one having an uncountable infinite difference between them
Click to expand...
We have Limitless planes of existence, (although we can of course say that the levels of being and existence are different things, but I don’t see these definitions being very different in this cosmology), existing on another plane of existence makes you more real than reality with twelve dimensions , elevating you to such a plane of reality that you can recognize that the universe is just a hologram created by the mind. And beings from a deeper level of reality cannot be described by the word dimension in the context of a higher level of existence
 
Antvasima said:
@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lightning_XXI @Stefano4444 @LuciferX @Vasco @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @JohnCenaNation @VeryGoofyToddler @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @Maverick_Zero_X @Catzlaflame @Robo432343 @VeryGoofyToddler @Lonkitt @LordTracer @Alonik @ProfectusInfinity @M3X_2.0 @DarkDragonMedeus

What do you think about this?
Click to expand...
All right, I'll give it a look-see.

For starters, I hadn't noticed this until now, but the arguments about limitless planes of existence in heaven are the exact same arguments that IdiosyncraticLawyer downgraded recently, like with literally no new scans added whatsoever. At this point, I'm just gonna cite the main reasons for rejection.

IdiosyncraticLawyer
Should High 1-B even be on the page, or is it just something the staff neglected to remove? The justifications seem quite suspect:
  1. There are as many realms in Heaven as there are souls in Creation.[108] (This scan is clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, which isn't evidence for some of them transcending the others, only that heaven gives each soul a different realm)
  2. There are different planes of Heaven.[106] (This scan only states that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation and implies no infinite hierarchy, and the word "beyond" is used too vaguely here to glean any information from it about qualitative superiority)
On top of that, Pralaya and the Divine Presence, which transcend heaven with qualitative superiority, only reach into 1-C and High 1-C, which is nonsensical if heaven is High 1-B.
Click to expand...
Deagonx
The scan about the truer and deeper dreams, in my opinion, is not best interpreted as an R>F layer.

The story is about a man named Robert who died, but instead of going to Heaven, he entered an ideal dream world where he got to live out the life that he always wanted to have. Spectre starts showing up and influencing the dream, to try to break Robert out of it. Spectre explains that sometimes souls who can't let go of their earthy lives enter these dream worlds before moving onto Heaven, but he had to intervene because Robert was stuck there.

When they arrive at the gates of Heaven, Robert asks if Heaven is also a dream, and Spectre gives this monologue:

"Call it a deeper dream... a truer dream. But there are more dreams still -- beyond it! And each deep dream thins the veil between you and the Divine Dreamer. Between the limited self you imagine you are -- and the infinite self you've always been. It's an adventure Robert. A journey of discovery... from lifetime to lifetime... dream to dream."

It's more about spiritual growth than it is meant to be interpreted as R>F layers that Robert (or all of humanity) are rising through. Spectre didn't plop down into a realm he considered fictional to pull Robert up into a "more real" level of reality. Letting go of the dream world was a step along the way of his spiritual growth.
Click to expand...
Qawsedf
If the question is "Heaven is 1-C" then I'm fine with it. While the layers aren't R>F I do agree that there's an infinite amount of them and The Presence's heaven stands at the top. I don't see the layers as being dimensional superior.
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, I haven't debated these scans as much as the other staff who've been a part of it, but this seems to be a repeated topic. To claim that being vaguely called "more real" than something accounts for qualitative superiority is the R>F equivalent of when people claim that buzzwords like "hyperdimensional/super-dimensional" mean something without supporting evidence. I don't see how you could derive an uncountably infinite gap between planes from the scans given. From what I'm seeing of the previous thread from months ago (and even the last thread), most debates around this topic devolve into proponents making extrapolations, staff members asking why extrapolated interpretations are reliable, and proponents saying "the scans speak for themselves." It's effectively special pleading at this point.

The world of these creatures is not reality, and not unreality, and not a dream, but something more than real. Reality deep enough to be a dream.
Click to expand...
I feel like this is one of those instances I was talking about where "more real" is used as something of a buzzword. I just finished reading Superman: The Kansas Sighting, and throughout this story, there are mysterious alien/u.f.o. sightings which lead to moments where the main cast is abducted. All this fluff about how "this dream is truer than reality" is literally... just characters like Superman trying to comprehend if the repeated alien abductions are illusions, then concluding at times of reflection that what they thought were dreams are actually "more real than anything they've ever known..." in the sense that these illusions hit them on a personal level, like with the illusion of a Jor-El manifestation that makes Superman question if his life on earth was a pretense. This story is being taken tremendously out of context.
There may be twelve dimensions in the universe.
Click to expand...
Yup, this solidifies it. The whole storyline is being taken massively out of context. At the moment of this scan, the Kansas sightings for aliens and u.f.o.'s draws a large crowd around Herbert Moore's property, and this crowd begins spitting delusions and conspiracy theories regarding aliens. The whole "12 dimensions stuff" is just a rando stereotyping the aliens as extra-dimensional beings, and not a statement on cosmology. Seriously, reread this scan while taking my assessment into consideration. With that out of the way, it seems the main crutch for a higher dimensional cosmology is gone.
The laws of logic and physics do not apply to these creatures.
Click to expand...
Buzzwords about the aliens being indescribable/mysterious, I don't even think this could suffice as supporting evidence.
They vibrate at different frequencies, and can descend into the interface, the tunnel between his level of existence, and Superman's. They are not aliens, but beings of a deeper level of reality. The word dimension is too limited to fully reflect their nature.
Click to expand...
With the R>F stuff and 12-D stuff being unreliable for the reasons I've explained, there's nothing you can use to derive a higher dimensional cosmology from here. At best you could do something with the "dimension is too limited" statement, but even if we were to take the 12-D statement at face value, it seems to be a reference to string dimensions which have infinitesimal mass and don't transcend each other in a way that abides by our standards.

In a nutshell:

1. The "limitless planes of existence in heaven" has been rejected recently under a basis using more scans than those provided here. The whole "higher planes are more real" thing is just buzzwords that don't suffice as R>F. It's just used to describe spiritual growth and gaining a better understanding of yourself in higher planes.

2. The whole 2-issue Kansas Sighting storyline used as a basis for much of the OP is being taken massively out of context. For one thing, the "12-dimensional aliens" statement has nothing to do with cosmology, and is just a random nutjob shouting spiel and conspiracies in a manner like this.

3. Adding onto that last point, the aliens don't have R>F over the universe either. To contextualize the "dream more real than reality" stuff, the main cast is abducted by aliens in instances which they assert to be illusions, but further assert to be "more real than anything they've known" because these illusions hit them on a personal level.

I think PrinceofPein makes the most sense here.
 
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Brahmatman said:
We have Limitless planes of existence, (although we can of course say that the levels of being and existence are different things, but I don’t see these definitions being very different in this cosmology), existing on another plane of existence makes you more real than reality with twelve dimensions , elevating you to such a plane of reality that you can recognize that the universe is just a hologram created by the mind. And beings from a deeper level of reality cannot be described by the word dimension in the context of a higher level of existence
Click to expand...
Limitless plane of existence without proof of uncountable infinite difference between them does not grant anything for an upgrade.
Also what are the nature of those twelve dimensions e.t.c. so far this is iffy
 
PrinceofPein said:
Limitless plane of existence without proof of uncountable infinite difference between them does not grant anything for an upgrade.
Also what are the nature of those twelve dimensions e.t.c. so far this is iffy
Click to expand...

This and previous threads contain so much evidence of qualitative superiority that it’s just funny to me how you try to deny absolutely everything without any clear arguments, simply because you don’t want to accept it.

You can't just say "No, that won't work" while there are a ton of scans that prove a qualitative difference.

Sometimes it seems to me (like many other wikis and social networks) that this wiki is deliberately trying to downgrade DC Universe, using so many little things in its attempts to downgrade. I have not seen such a high level of detailed predications in other threads as in DC.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
In a nutshell, I haven't debated these scans as much as the other staff who've been a part of it, but this seems to be a repeated topic. To claim that being vaguely called "more real" than something accounts for qualitative superiority is the R>F equivalent of when people claim that buzzwords like "hyperdimensional/super-dimensional" mean something without supporting evidence. I don't see how you could derive an uncountably infinite gap between planes from the scans given. From what I'm seeing of the previous thread from months ago (and even the last thread), most debates around this topic devolve into proponents making extrapolations, staff members asking why extrapolated interpretations are reliable, and proponents saying "the scans speak for themselves." It's effectively special pleading at this point.
Click to expand...
You seem to miss the point of “more real.” The idea is that everything is an illusion dreamt up by God. Thus the reality happening in the Dream is nothing but a mere illusory sense before coming closer to God. To go beyond the Gross Plane and transcend material to the Sutble and Mental realm where you achieve infinite power, knowledge, and bliss accounts for higher planes that completely disregard the body's needs for physicalness.

You don't see the authors randomly say “that beings are dimensional superior” with the intent of trying to match something that the Wiki comes by. Due to that, Matteis's writing fits how he feels about God dreaming of Creation, which “more real” is the equivocation of superiority. I've literally asked him do planes transcend each other to insignificant and he said yes, and all planes, and everything else me as nothing to God. The closer you are to him, the more power you have, and the higher state of consciousness you achieve. That's how Meher Baba's theory of the Dream intertwines with Matteis's storytelling of God and the layers of dreams being “more real” the deeper you go.

That's simply how Matteis writes with the Dream logic. Most authors write how they think and I do not believe they reference VSBW's work of dimensional tiering as a justification of what they meant by superior, more real, higher, etc…. You don't fit how we describe tiering within the story because they never write as we make of tiering. That's why we speculate about how we definite dimensional tiering.
ProfectusInfinity said:
I feel like this is one of those instances I was talking about where "more real" is used as something of a buzzword. I just finished reading Superman: The Kansas Sighting, and throughout this story, there are mysterious alien/u.f.o. sightings which lead to moments where the main cast is abducted. All this fluff about how "this dream is truer than reality" is literally... just characters like Superman trying to comprehend if the repeated alien abductions are illusions, then concluding at times of reflection that what they thought were dreams are actually "more real than anything they've ever known..." in the sense that these illusions hit them on a personal level, like with the illusion of a Jor-El manifestation that makes Superman question if his life on earth was a pretense. This story is being taken tremendously out of context.
Click to expand...
That's only slightly true. Seekers dwell in beings beyond just humans comprehending their nature as God living limitless lifetimes. They must seek the journey of self-individualization that they are the Primal Ocean of Oneness and that they are God. So feeling a personal sense of knowledge is part of that experience. Nevertheless, the interconnection point of Stuble and Gross is where they achieve all the powers of God, of the Oversoul.

Superman's experience speaks for himself as would anyone. To them, they feel and seem real but as they journey to higher planes, they realize the past is less real and then above that would feel less real. It works until they realize only God is the real reality and that they are God dreaming of Creation. If a UFO landing there means a way of understanding it then it's part of the journey to gain knowledge. Has nothing to do with higher planes being more real doesn't mean superiority, when the context of the story presents “more real” as analogous to being more superior.
ProfectusInfinity said:
Yup, this solidifies it. The whole storyline is being taken massively out of context. At the moment of this scan, the Kansas sightings for aliens and u.f.o.'s draws a large crowd around Herbert Moore's property, and this crowd begins spitting delusions and conspiracy theories regarding aliens. The whole "12 dimensions stuff" is just a rando stereotyping the aliens as extra-dimensional beings, and not a statement on cosmology. Seriously, reread this scan while taking my assessment into consideration. With that out of the way, it seems the main crutch for a higher dimensional cosmology is gone.
Click to expand...
Like in real life, we don't know how dimensionality works beyond just space-time(4D). M-Theory is still a theory, the Big Bang is still a theory, and Multiverse is still a theory. Like us, comic books depict us making things up if we see things we are not used to or can not comprehend.

The real question is “What makes this any different from us?” It doesn't even deny the Cosmology if we only ask beings such as humans with feeble comprehension of the Cosmology inverse setting. This is why Phantom Stranger had to help the guy realize how Creation works in Doctor Fate's story. They learn as they journey.
ProfectusInfinity said:
Buzzwords about the aliens being indescribable/mysterious, I don't even think this could suffice as supporting evidence.

With the R>F stuff and 12-D stuff being unreliable for the reasons I've explained, there's nothing you can use to derive a higher dimensional cosmology from here. At best you could do something with the "dimension is too limited" statement, but even if we were to take the 12-D statement at face value, it seems to be a reference to string dimensions which have infinitesimal mass and don't transcend each other in a way that abides by our standards.
Click to expand...
Matteis has never referenced String Theory and I don't think he meant it. He believes in what Meher Baba taught and the involution of Souls and planes transcending each other. Everything is layered and everything is more real as you keep going. You can venture as long as you want until you find indiviualzation with God.
ProfectusInfinity said:
In a nutshell:

1. The "limitless planes of existence in heaven" has been rejected recently under a basis using more scans than those provided here. The whole "higher planes are more real" thing is just buzzwords that don't suffice as R>F. It's just used to describe spiritual growth and gaining a better understanding of yourself in higher planes.
Click to expand...
“Buzzwords?” I've seen this reasoning for spiritual growth which pertains to humans, not the planes. The planes do not change in nature or setting only the humans do.
ProfectusInfinity said:
2. The whole 2-issue Kansas Sighting storyline used as a basis for much of the OP is being taken massively out of context. For one thing, the "12-dimensional aliens" statement has nothing to do with cosmology, and is just a random nutjob shouting spiel and conspiracies in a manner like this.
Click to expand...
Like every theorist? They don't have proof, they theorize. Humans can think of what they meant and the story depicts them as human.
ProfectusInfinity said:
3. Adding onto that last point, the aliens don't have R>F over the universe either. To contextualize the "dream more real than reality" stuff, the main cast is abducted by aliens in instances which they assert to be illusions, but further assert to be "more real than anything they've known" because these illusions hit them on a personal level.
Click to expand...
They realize of the illusions not that the aliens are just nothing but illusion. In Seekers, we've seen the Magician give the Soul what they long for. One of the descriptions is “a UFO landing in your backyard, Given!” Nothing is an illusion when they're in the setting of each plane. It only hits them as they discover beyond each plane they are in and eventually realize of the only true reality.
ProfectusInfinity said:
I think PrinceofPein makes the most sense here.
Click to expand...
Because he aligns with your view?
 
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