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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

NHTkenshin2 said:
Grant has said a couple of times that the map is supposed to follow some Kabbalistic attributes in nature, the Kabbalah posits that God has about three aspects, or forms that it took. The Ain is the non-existence preceding God, the ain sof is God, and the ain sof aur is the infinite light of God.

Grant, I believe, did personally think of the Source as the Ain Soph Aur, the infinite light (or in this case, energy) of God. And the map does say that there is specifically three things beyond the Source wall, which Grant has called God.

Due to the Kabbalah calling these three manifestations "God", I believe Grant probably also called the Source, "the unknowable" and the Overvoid "God". Hence, why the Source was referred to as the Overvoid or the white page multiple times, it's simply synonymous with God.
Click to expand...
I don't remember Grant ever bringing up Kabbalah in regards to his work on DC.

NHTkenshin2 said:
all of this can be fixed with Dream, unironically. Dream is proof that the entire cosmology is not a fixed entity but rather a completely fluid nature bound by belief, interpretation and perception, but we choose to believe it as an objective structure.
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I don't think most people here believe it's an objective structure. It is completely fluid, but that's because authors are inconsistent and don't have a unified vision of the cosmology. We could interpret that through the lens of the cosmology being bound by belief/perception but that wouldn't IMO be justification in and of itself for any sort of composite scaling. If anything we could argue the opposite is what is most justified by that information.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Also, Grant uses Kabbalah terms wrong since God(Ein Sof) contains all three veils: Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur.
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Well, I'm not sure I could say he's using Kabbalah terms wrong because (till now) I have not seen him use Kabbalah terms in anything, comic or interview. Where is that from?
 
Deagonx said:
Well, I'm not sure I could say he's using Kabbalah terms wrong because (till now) I have not seen him use Kabbalah terms in anything, comic or interview. Where is that from?
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He hasn't used it in the story he writes for DC other than slight mentions. It is more interviews and his own personal superstories he writes that he uses it and even then it's very brief.
 
He mentions it several times when talking about the Source and Jack Kirby.

But this scan in particular is what I am referring to:

image.png
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
He mentions it several times when talking about the Source and Jack Kirby.
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I believe he only mentioned it once, saying that Jack was inspired by Kabbalah when he wrote the Source. I don't know of any other instance than that one.

NHTkenshin2 said:
But this scan in particular is what I am referring to:

image.png
Click to expand...
I see, although this is him describing Supergods, his personal book, not anything he worked on for DC or DC's cosmology. Thank you for sharing, however.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
He mentions it several times when talking about the Source and Jack Kirby.

But this scan in particular is what I am referring to:

image.png
Click to expand...
He mentions it in the comics a lot too but I don’t really think solely mentioning it is the most important part. What I find more important is that Grant seems to largely structures the cosmic scale of things around a Kabbalah system. And this makes it so you have to be familiar with the ideas he’s getting at in his stories before trying to fully understand them.

IMG_2696.png
 
Last edited:
Xearsay said:
What I find more important is that Grant seems to largely structures the cosmic scale of things around a Kabbalah system
Click to expand...
This is sort of a misapplication of what Grant is attempting to do. Grant also explicitly described the map as being based on Buddhism as well. No one single source takes the reins in Grants comics, he weaves in basically everything he can think of in different ways, so trying to understand/examine them from a single theological source will lead you to erroneous conclusions.

8618129-kab.jpg


"Inspired by Primum Mobile illustrations, Buddhist mandalas, as well as the work of UFO inspired Boston architect Paul Laffoley (who draws cabalistic machines)"
And then he references Buddhism again, and Superstring theory.

All of Grant's work is a melting pot of everything he's ever interacted with all at once. It's not especially helpful to fixate on any one of those inspirations as a template for interpreting his work.

Xearsay said:
I think Grant even mentioned somewhere that the map had a more obvious Kabbalah tree appearance to itself before the final product was put out.
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That quote is in NHT's post, but he wasn't talking about the map. He's referring to his book, Supergods.
 
This is sort of a misapplication of what Grant is attempting to do. Grant also explicitly described the map as being based on Buddhism as well. No one single source takes the reins in Grants comics, he weaves in basically everything he can think of in different ways, so trying to understand/examine them from a single theological source will lead you to erroneous conclusions.
Click to expand...
Huh? I’m not supporting the idea that Grants comic should be only looked at from one lens so why are you even typing this to me?

Deagonx said:
That quote is in NHT's post, but he wasn't talking about the map. He's referring to his book, Supergods.
Click to expand...
Yeah I already realized that, hence why I edited out of my comment what you’re replying to here.
 
Xearsay said:
Huh? I’m not supporting the idea that Grants comic should be only looked at from one lens so why are you even typing this to me?
Click to expand...
Because you described it as a "Kabbalah system" when it's equally a "buddhist system" and "superstring theory" system and many others.
 
Deagonx said:
Because you described it as a "Kabbalah system" when it's equally a "buddhist system" and "superstring theory" system and many others.
Click to expand...
No, I said the cosmic scale was “largely structured around” a Kabbalah system, which is not the same as saying the cosmic scale is only a Kabbalah system involving nothing else, like what you’ve interpreted.

Also, I‘ve consistently expressed before how Grants stories incorporate various different beliefs and theories, so I don’t know why you’d think I’d be arguing that it’s only Kabbalah.
 
To acknowledge something as an "Ain Sof Aur" is to have in mind that there is an Ain, and an Ain Sof (which is mentioned in DC), I believe Grants beliefs have largely affected a lot of aspects in the cosmology, such as the aspects of God.

I don't think we should be looking at "God" as just a single character with a single tier.

Also to be clear, Grant had called the Source the ain sof aur about two times, and constantly says that his idea of the Source is supposed to respect Kirbys beliefs.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I believe Grants beliefs have largely affected a lot of aspects in the cosmology, such as the aspects of God.
Click to expand...
Of course they have. It's just crucial that they were inspired by many things other than Kabbalism. He brings up Buddhism a lot more often than Kabbalah.

NHTkenshin2 said:
Also to be clear, Grant had called the Source the ain sof aur about two times, and constantly says that his idea of the Source is supposed to respect Kirbys beliefs.
Click to expand...
He said two times that Kirby's perspective on it was rooted in Kabbalism and the Ain Soph Aur, but it was always about Kirby, not his own affirmation. I'm not sure where he's ever said his idea of the Source is supposed to "respect" Kirby's belief. I mean, I'm sure he respects Kirby a great deal, but it is doubtless that he put his own spin on things and didn't shackle himself to what Kirby thought.

I just don't understand the need to build a bridge between Morrison and Kabbalism over any of the other many inspirations he had. Especially given he never really talks about Kabbalah unless he's talking about Kirby, which suggests to me its relatively low on his list of inspirations. When Michael Julius was doing it, in his seriously disturbed way, it was out of a clear motivation, as he thought he could extrapolate useful tiering info from Kabbalism by saying the Overvoid was "based on Kabbalism" when it wasn't.
 
The Source had inspiration from Kabbalah, but that doesn't inform any canonical conclusions about the Source beyond what was actually stated in the comics.
 
vsbattles.com

DC upgrade 1A, likely H1A

Let's separate the cosmology but without reducing respect for other writers and make it logical according to the dc storyline. So at first it was just darkness, then light appeared and gave birth to creation. [here] Darkness itself is great darkness, light is the overvoid [original presence...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
The unending attempts at upgrading the cosmology have become tiresome, have we not had more than 10 in the last 3 months? I believe we should likely create a discussion rule that cosmology revisions for DC need to be approved by staff ahead of time before posted. They are all arduously long and the people making them largely are not very easy to communicate with.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Damn Ant cold wit it
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My apologies if I misinterpreted the situation. I just had the impression that new members had come here to our community mainly just to relentlessly spam a single issue until they got their way, which severely detracted from everything else regarding this verse, and required massive amounts of time to deal with. 🙏
 
Deagonx said:
The unending attempts at upgrading the cosmology have become tiresome, have we not had more than 10 in the last 3 months? I believe we should likely create a discussion rule that cosmology revisions for DC need to be approved by staff ahead of time before posted. They are all arduously long and the people making them largely are not very easy to communicate with.
Click to expand...
A discussion rule might be a good idea at this point, yes. Let Elizio33 and all of his collaborators take their time to investigate proper scaling for the DC Comics cosmology in private instead. 🙏
 
These are all of the DC cosmology upgrade threads from the last nine months.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/separating-cosmologies-is-irrelevant.162576/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/bleed-is-5d-dc-comics.161991/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-cosmology-crisis-cosmology-part-1.162162/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-upgrade-to-h1b-l1a-1a.162214/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-upgrade-1a-likely-h1a.163368/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-cosmology-upgrade-revenge-of-the-sith.163295/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/vertigo-neil-gaiman-and-mike-carey-revision.162150/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/j-m-dematteis-cosmology-revision.161925/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/misconception-about-the-overvoid.161962/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-demateis-cosmology-and-yet-part-2.161662/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-demateis-cosmology-and-yet.161329/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-dimensions.161282/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-j-m-dematteis-cosmology-downgrade.153905/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/vertigo-comics-the-void-1-a-upgrade.156434/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-vertigo-cosmology-revision.154052/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lucifers-creation-infinite-dimension.152103/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/elaine-michael-lucifer-and-the-presence-possible-1-c-upgrade.153855/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-hands-revision.154904/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-follow-ups-earth-33-part-1.154792/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/verti...esence-is-high-1-a-lucifer-possibly-0.154153/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-follow-ups-bleedspace.154001/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/remove-transduality-from-monitor-mind-the-overvoid.153891/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-comics-follow-up-upgrades-part-1.153794/

https://vsbattles.com/threads/williamson-dark-frontier-cosmology.152026/

Personally, I don't really have the stamina for it. Very few of these threads passed aside from the ones that were started by staff members, and I can't keep hashing out the same issues ad infinitum with members who will never agree with me and getting into long drawn out threads.
 
Yes, that is far more than enough evidence to add a strict discussion rule that gives you the authority to quickly close them. 🙏
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Some specific members probably should be put under some rules prohibiting them from posting upgrades without staff permission.

Locking upgrades to the verse as a whole is borderline authoritarian.
Click to expand...
We will get upgrades to the verse anyway thanks to Elizio33 and his collaborators. We just need a discussion rule against using previously rejected arguments or new members posting upgrade attempts, or somesuch, because this has turned unmanageable.
 
We could add a discussion rule that reads as follows:

Due to an overabundance of revision threads attempting to make sweeping changes to DC's cosmology, attempts to significantly change the cosmology (not including relatively compact and focused changes to singular aspects) should be coordinated with a knowledgeable staff member before being pursued.
Click to expand...

We can alter the wording however you prefer.
 
Elizio33 said:
What about my proposal to reword our argument of dividing the DC cosmologies?
Click to expand...
I have a good suggestion, how about dividing the cosmology based on the omniverse? perpetua one of the hands is the first creator and the other hand is also assigned the same as perpetua. Especially with the existence of an infinite multiverse that is separate from the perpetua multiverse. In the Overvoid there is an infinite multiverses
 
vsbattles.com

Time stream is beyond dimensional

Sorry for another DC brain rot discussion thread. This won't take much time. Time stream is stated as "not confined by DIMENSIONAL SPACE" which got me thinking if they are referring to 3 dimensional space or higher.....If they want to state time stream as not limited by 3 dimensional space...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
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