• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Planck69
Reaction score
16,590

Profile posts Latest activity Postings About

  • Hey! Hope you're having a good day.

    Would you be willing to check this CRT to see if it checks out? It's for a verse that has been forgotten in time and in desperate need of revisions lol

    If you are willing, take your time in reading this. It's a bit wordy. 😅

    Thanks in advance!
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I'll try to give it a read.
    Migue79
    Migue79
    Thank you very much for your input. :)
    Why did you close my thread without letting me reply to you? I've only now seen your replies.
    WeatherShaman
    WeatherShaman
    I actually really really want you to understand this, so go on a journey with me:

    Let’s start by addressing this question: What is Tier 0.

    First and foremost, “Tier 0” is a terminology that you guys picked, and therefore it can mean anything you want. It can mean cats, it can mean pickle jars. Now, the meaning you ascribe Tier 0 is not reducible to either cats or pickle jars, but to an existence that holds the endpoint of infinite potentiality in a way that stands infinitely apart from every other potentiality. On top of that, you represent it through mathematics. Like how there’s an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2.

    Here is where the problems start. Your representation is not consistent with the meaning that you seek to ascribe Tier 0 and even with the traits possessed by characters that you attribute this tier to. Unless you want to claim that these characters are not reducible to Tier 0 and you only use it because of indexing pragmatism as you specified in that footnote on "Tiering System".

    So we have a contradiction on the table already: Your meaning of Tier 0 seems to point towards the endpoint of infinite potentiality, which is reflected by some choices you made with respect to characters that you deem as Tier 0 (The Amaranth), yet you self-admittingly represent the tier through mathematics because of pragmatism. However, the endpoint of infinite potentiality is automatically outside of mathematics and logic. And I have arguments for this.

    But why is that the case? You might ask. Go on a journey with me:

    The characters you deem as Tier 0 are more than what you represent to be Tier 0, and philosophers, theologists, etc. have thought about the proposition pertinent to the nature of infinite potentiality for a very long time. This proposition can be summed as "God". Not God as in "Zeus", but as in "The Fundamental God". Something like "Allah", "The Dao", even "Shiva" (though Shiva himself is high 1-A because he's an avatar of The Infinite Void which is Tier 0). These Gods are all Tier 0. They hold the Absolute Endpoint of Infinite Potentiality.

    And this is the quintessential understanding of what all these people came to realize about something that is the Absolute Endpoint of Infinite Potentiality. Everyone from Laozi to Carl Jung to Schopenhauer to many others has this common ground between them when it comes to this kind of Being, let's call this Being “The Absolute Being" for simplicity, and I will try to summarize this understanding:

    "The Absolute Being is that which can never be comprehended and that which is fundamental and necessary to everything."

    - Me

    And this is Tier 0: Something that is necessary and fundamental to everything. Not aleph null, not infinity, none of that. The aleph null thing might be relevant for the lower tiers but not for Tier 0. For this tier represents something upon which everything else depends on, of which its most fundamental form is most competently described as nondualistic and therefore incomprehensible for those dualistic existences depending on it (I say the most fundamental form because those dependent on it are also IT expressed in a finite way). Pretty much all the accurately tiered Tier 0 chars are that: The Amaranth, The Creator from Umineko. So Tier 0 is necessary for everything “else”. Tier 0 is necessary, everything from Tier High 1-A to the lowest depends on it. Huge difference there. I guess you could say that the only meaningful infinite disparity in potentiality is between 0 and everything else. That goes for the reason that from High 1-A to the lowest everything has a cap, no matter how far that cap is. But Tier 0 is the only existence with no cap.

    Let's break down this statement more:

    Why is this kind of being necessary?

    There's no doubt that there is existence, you can verify this with the epistemological truth "I think therefore I am". So we postulate existence. Generally, in philosophy, there are 2 types of existence: Necessary Existence, and dependent existence.

    Necessary Existence is something that can never be described by a dependant existence, but we can make some inferences about such Existence and our relationship with It. The Necessary is Absolute by definition. It has to be because otherwise, it's not Necessary. Something Necessary has to be Fundamental and something Fundamental is Absolute. There also can’t be more than 2 Absolutes because that means neither is Absolute. You can have an infinite amount of High 1-A Tiers but with Tier 0, you CAN’T.

    Now, the level of "Absolute" is debatable. There are different possibilities of Absolute:

    1. Something that can do anything no matter what it is: Can manipulate contradictions, can create square circles, can even make it so that THEY exist and not exist at the same time. Which would be "Hard Nonduality";

    2. Something that can still manipulate contradictions, create square circles, but they most likely cannot make it so that they exist and not exist at the same time. This is Soft Nonduality. (This is where I stand. THE MINIMUM we postulate is existence. So they have to at least exist. Although this doesn't exclude them being able to erase their own existence, which would not be reversible);

    3. Something maximally strong. Can do anything that can be done. Excludes making square circles (In my view, this is not likely. They. Have. To. Be. Able. To. Make. Square. Circles. ****. It [maybe].).

    So The Fundamental is characterized by being Absolute which entails being Symmetrical, Nondual, Infinite Potential-Having, and these traits can be best represented by dual beings like us through the law of noncontradiction. Why? Because logical contradictions are the most taboo things that can ever exist for us. A square circle is literally not a thing. You can’t imagine it, just like The Absolute Existence.

    This is how I represent the Absolute’s powers and subsequently nonduality through syntax:

    Absolute: p ∧ ¬ p is True (unless you want to argue that an absolute is just maximally strong and can't generate square circles & make contradictions like "The sky does and doesn't exist." coherent. But trying to define an absolute is useless so we'll put a fork in that debate.)

    Finite: p ∧ ¬ p is False, but p ∨ ¬ p can be True.

    Natural language:

    Absolute: The proposition: "The sky does(p) and(∧) doesn't(¬ p) exist." is True.

    Finite: The proposition: "The sky does(p) and(∧) doesn't(¬ p) exist." is False, but the proposition: "The sky can or(∨) can not exist." is True.

    Why is this kind of being non-describable?

    Well… explaining it kind of beats the idea. They just are. Dual beings presuppose disparity, Nondual beings don’t. You just can’t conceptualize Nonduality because your mind Works in Duality. And that is why Nonduality can never be represented through Dual languages like math. It’s like trying to describe math with physics as opposed to the reverse. And even this analogy is not a true analogy because it works in duality.

    This brings us to our main dish, my argument in the thread that you closed.

    IF we assume the aforementioned premises then we’re left with this entailment and reductio:

    The Tier 0 Being is Absolute, and that is true because we take it as a presupposition given the fact that we address the Absolute endpoint of potentiality; 2) You can't have 2 Absolutes. It doesn't make sense, saying that you can have 2 Absolutes means neither is Absolute; 3) Something Absolute is also meta-permeant. It can bypass any fictional meta. No... it does that simply by inferring the previous 2 premises.

    C: There’s only 1 Tier 0 per Omniverse. And yes, our universe is also part of that so fiction is real and every universe is connected and we can postulate that via the argument from contingency + the entailment that infinite potentiality in the nondual on every axis entails infinite potential in the dual.

    Brother Mohammed explains the argument from contingency very well. < Why is it the case that such existence exists.

    So Idk man. I honestly call for a complete revision of Tier 0. It's best represented through the law of noncontradiction and where it breaks, and we have the backed-up inferences above of what that means.

    “Armchair Philosophy”. Look, barely of what I say here is something new. I just ride on the shoulder of giants here: Schopenhauer, Carl Jung, Nietzsche, eastern religions, many great arguments, a preponderance of reason that pinpoints to these answers... etc. So watching 1 Vsauce video once doesn't warrant getting cocky over this stuff especially in front of these beasts.

    If you think this proposition is clear cut then you haven't paid attention to the literature
    Planck69
    Planck69
    You do realise that Tier 0 is a site chosen metric right? It's not a philosophical concept, it's what a bunch of people who want to tier fictional characters online decided to use as a benchmark for a certain level of power based on mathematics. This "beyond omnipotent beyond description" stuff isn't a thing here.

    Seriously, go bother the people listed as knowledgeable members on the tiering system about this. I have neither the will nor the interest to debate why our sites standards aren't wrong for not using something that doesn't exist.
    WeatherShaman
    WeatherShaman
    I realize that and even specified that I understand how Tier 0 is a metric used for pragmatic reasons. So I've been pretty perceptive of that. I'm just saying that Tier 0 CHARACTERS are more than what you take to be Tier 0. Way, way more than that. There's a lot of mis-tiering as well.. Maria shouldn't be Tier 0 and I say this as an avid Umineko fan. There are a lot more inferences to be made about such an existence than linear mathematical infinity. And you even touch that briefly in the description of Tier 0: "able to blah blah transcendental concepts and such", so you hint at more but you don't accept when that more is cleared up which is a bit puzzling but ok.

    Ok, I just wanted to clear my position up

    Have a good day

    Also, it exists.
    Planc, sorry to bother, what is the '' statistics explanation keys '', can you give an example from a character's profile, I need to see how it is created.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    When you make a change to a profile, link the CRT for it in the summary box that appears for what changes you've made.
    Yar_R_agi_7k
    Yar_R_agi_7k
    Do I connect the link here
    RdGNQS.png

    or here?
    cfhA1D.png
    Yar_R_agi_7k
    Yar_R_agi_7k
    ok i understand,(first photo) thank you for your help planc
    Hi could you please unlock this page if you can to add what was accepted? It's for the servant crt

    Planck69
    Planck69
    I'm a Thread Moderator, I can't do that.
    Regidian
    Regidian
    Ow sorry lol
    Hello, sorry for bother but can you close this thread??? Everyone rejected it and we are asking for someone who can close it
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I have closed the thread.

    And no worries on it being a bother, I'm here to help.
    Dereck03
    Dereck03
    Oki and thanks so much 👌
    Please I need your input on this thread
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I have no knowledge of the verse in question. Best to ask staff members that do.
    Can meng hao stop time for beings beyond the concept of tim
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I mean, at that point you're really not stopping time. But in a sense, he can.
    Can you show me where it's tell that he continues to add thread after the infinite box was created for his universe?
    Regidian
    Regidian
    I mean nepuko if the physique and hax are not same tier than why their are fully 1-A? Otherwise i don't understand the comparaison with void shiki since even if it's like her and they just possesse the body when they want, the physical should still have a different tier.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    They can create Daos with their physical bodies just fine. Like, the only thing limiting them is the natural laws of the setting.
    Nepuko
    Nepuko
    Yes, they are fully 1-A because they are Essences unto themselves in all aspects. The ones who aren't fully 1-A are those half a step into the 4th step, who are technically 1-A in only one or 2 aspects (either body, soul, cultivation base or a combination of 2 of those). 4th step are 1-A in body, soul and cultivation base, in "all" aspects.

    The Void Shiki analogy was to show you what argument you're trying to make, it does not properly reflect the reality. If we use the Shiki analogy, it would be like Void Shiki saying "Anyone who isn't at the same level as my Hax cannot enter my House on Earth". A House on Earth isn't even Tier 8, but to enter it that means you have to be on the same level as her Void hax, i.e. 1-A. It doesn't mean you're Tier 9.

    Adding on to that, the "environment" in Er Gen verse itself cultivates. For example, you can have a Universe-level Sun.....an actual Sun. That can destroy Universes, has Universal+ durability and has 4-D hax. So going like "lol they destroyed that sun, they should be Tier 4" is wrong in that instance, for example, as it would be Tier 2. But I digress.
    Greatsage13th
    Planck69
    Planck69
    They both haven't seen the clip and aren't knowledgeable members, when you start saying stuff like that then of course they'll agree.

    Whatever, I don't care about this anymore. Ask some other members just don't keep bothering me with this verse.
    Greatsage13th
    Greatsage13th
    I already pointed out your arguements there about that it didn't represent any idea/concept of any nature and throughout the entire thread I constantly reminded them that it was never stated to represent anything at all.

    Edit: fixed element would more likely mean it is a fixed idea from what I found.

    What fixed means?
    1a : securely placed or fastened : stationary. b(1) : nonvolatile. (2) : formed into a chemical compound. c(1) : not subject to change or fluctuation a fixed income. (2) : firmly set in the mind a fixed idea.
    hey for that red tornado thread, you forgot to mention those abilities are stuff in his elemental form, not regular form 💀 I added that small bit already. Don't think another key is needed for elemental form, but its probably needed seeing as he scales to pre crisis characters, we can talk about it in another CRT sometime. Is there some parliament CRT ongoing right now?
    Planck69
    Planck69
    If you need to reopen the thread, just message Antvasima.

    There's a CRT going on, yes.
    Hey planck, iust wondering , could you give me all the statements that show cthulu mythos is tier 0??
    Planck69
    Planck69
    Not any I have at hand. It's the Cthulhu Mythos, were you expecting feats?
    Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
    Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
    Nope, just looking for flowery language that gets you at tier 1.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    That's the main bulk. There was also a statement of a universe-atom hierarchy and in Kull, it's implied that there's an endless chain of universes that are less than atoms in a higher reality.
    Here take a look. The shit Supes does on a daily basis is literally more than ridiculous.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    My main issue was "muh concepts of space and time" statements.
    Greenshifter
    Greenshifter
    and https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/106979/6914044-8788905600-53819.jpg these scans are on Lucifer Morningstar’s page. They’re essentially saying how he transcends the concepts of space and time and I don’t think it has anything to do with being transcendent to the Bleed yet he’s still 1-A and I don’t think anyone but Ant really wants to downgrade him since this is Post-Crisis.

    This guy also got some conceptual transcendence stuff.

    Edit: the second one does talk about layers my bad.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    Demonbane was 1-A for 3 years despite having BS justifications. It being on the profile doesn't mean that it shouldn't be scrutinised and changed when necessary.
    Yo. I remembered something from RI that should upgrade the lifting strength via divine sense for peak first step cultivators and above. In chapter 1487-1488, Xi Zifang uses her divine sense and origin soul to shake and nearly change the trajectory of a cultivation planet by herself and states that she has done so successfully to three planets before. The mid-stage nirvana scryer cultivator does it successfully with ease.

    Chapter 1487

    "There were many people as ugly as her. Also, she was only a Corporeal Yang cultivator with no family backing, so she could be bullied without consequence.

    Xi Zifeng, use your origin soul to shake the trajectory of this planet.” This middle-aged man was at the mid stage of Nirvana Scryer, and his words contained a sense of indisputable majesty.

    He had known this woman for a long time, and he was someone who once seeked her beauty. However, it was because of this that every time he saw her ugly appearance, the more discomfort he felt.

    To move a cultivation planet, one needed to first use their origin soul to shake it off its trajectory. When the trajectory was changed, the rebound force would injure one’s origin soul greatly.

    Xi Zifeng silently pondered and her face turned pale. A moment later, she respectfully clasped her hands and said in a hoarse voice, “Lord Messenger, I have shaken the last three planets off trajectory with my origin soul and my injuries haven’t recovered. Can I…”

    Before Xi Zifeng finished speaking, the middle-aged man frowned and snorted.

    Xi Zifeng’s body trembled and she bit her lower lip. She no longer spoke and turned toward the cultivation planet.

    Chapter 1488

    Xi Zifeng bit her lower lip and flew toward the planet filled with spiritual energy. She closed her eyes, but there were no tears.

    Her tears had long dried up over the past 800 years.

    Her cultivation slowly activated and a gentle light spread out from her body. Her origin soul created a thread of divine sense that moved toward the cultivation planet that had already been evacuated.

    In an instant, her divine sense seemed to connect with the cultivation planet. Her face was pale as she clenched her teeth and her divine sense pulled!

    This cultivation planet immediately rumbled and its slow rotation stopped due to the pull of her divine sense!


    However, the moment it paused, an unimaginable rebound force appeared and charged mercilessly at Xi Zifeng’s divine sense.

    Xi Zifeng coughed out blood. The divine sense that had split off from her origin soul wasn’t able to bear the rebound force, and it began to tear down the middle!

    Her face was deathly pale and she retreated hundreds of feet. Her origin soul flew out once more to form the thread of divine sense. The thread flew toward the planet and pulled once more!

    The intense rumble echoed and the planet showed signs of changing trajectory. However, the rebound force was even more intense than before. As the thunderous rumbles echoed, Xi Zifeng’s divine sense collapsed once more!

    This collapse caused Xi Zifeng’s divine sense to collapse layer by layer, and her origin soul was knocked back into her body. She coughed out blood as her body trembled, and she looked like she couldn’t even stand. Her face was ashen and her eyes became dim.

    “Useless trash!” With a cold snort, the Thunder Celestial Temple messenger flew past Xi Zifeng and waved his sleeves.
    His origin soul formed a thread of divine sense and connected to the planet. With a roar, he pulled the planet out from the trajectory it had been on for countless years."

    Stopping a cultivation planet's rotation and changing its trajectory by pulling should be a lifting strength feat right?
    Planck69
    Planck69
    Yes, it is.

    Peak 1st Step cultivators already have Multi-Galactic lifting strength via moving large chunks of Heavenspan. This is probably enough to upgrade them to Universal via moving cultivation planets at least as large as Suzaku.
  • Loading…
  • Loading…
  • Loading…
Back
Top