1-A Caster Iri with Grail Hax (Nasuverse)?

[TheUnshakableOne]

Please Take Note of This:​

I do not want to discuss ANY additions to this. I want to talk about JUST THIS characters listed below and NOT some OTHER characters scaling off of her. Some sort of scaling off of her can be done on a separate CRT after this one in the future. I would like to focus on just the points down below.

down further below is some debunks on why characters like Goetia and Tiamat should not scale.

Edited Note: So.. Im blind lol... Apparently Sieg and Angra are accepted for having 1-A hax with the greater grail. And I didn't know it was already accepted that greater grail has 1-A Hax lol. So this thread will only talk about Caster Iri now, strictly only Caster Iri.

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How is the Holy Grail tier 1-A? (The Greater Grail was accepted for having 1-A Hax on this CRT https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-revisions-part-2-root-scaling.115229/page-2)​

The Holy Grail is used to make a hole in a wall. What lays behind this hole is the pathway that leads to the "Root."

"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery.

I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the origin."

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall.
The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."

- Fate/Stay Night

"The Greater Grail spent sixty years absorbing prana and used it to cut open a path that would lead to true Magic – opening a hole that would lead outside the world."


"In any case, the granting of wishes was merely a side effect of the Holy Grail. Its true nature was a tool to bore a hole through the world, fueled by the sacrifice of Heroic Spirits of the past. And there was only one task left to perform."

- Fate/Apocrypha

According to the tiering system tiering system below.

Mathematically, 1-A has its size represented by further uncountably infinite cardinals beyond useful applications of certain measures (ℵ2 and onwards, most specifically) and can be extended unto greater levels of infinity, representing different complexities or qualitative "steps" on an Outerversal scale,

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#Tier_1:_Extradimensional

For the Holy Grail to bore a hole through a "wall" that leads a pathway to the "Root" it would need bore a hole through a wall that is like ℵ2. As it leads to the same "outside of the world" [click link for more information] that the "Root" is in according to Fate/Apocrypha. In other words, it is within reach of the Root and not some ℵ3, or stacks/layers of some sort of uncountably infinite number of X-Distance away.

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Saber Shiki's Connection to the Root: A​

That skill of hers is alluded strongly to being comparable to the Holy Grail.

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Why Does Caster Iri Scale to the Greater Grail?​

She is the Terminal of the Holy Grail. The Spirit of the Greater Grail.

Her Bond 10 Craft Essence also specifically notes that she can control the Greater Grail, and she manifest as the avatar of the Greater Grail.

My dress?


Yes, you’re right. The colors are so beautiful…



…Hehe, thank you. I appreciate your saying that.

I like it too, actually. It’s wonderful.



This is the Robe of Heaven…

It’s also called the Dress of Heaven. But it’s a very important Mystic Code. It’s a treasure that’s been passed down in my family.



It was supposed to be used to control the Greater Grail. Maybe that’s why I’m wearing it now: because I’ve manifested as the avatar of the Grail.



…To be honest, I should be passing it down to her. She’s the homunculus who’s going to grant the great wish of the Einzberns, not me.



But no… I’m not going to do that. This is mine.

As her mother, I’m not letting go of this dress.



I want to give her whatever presents I can.

Pretty things. Cute things. All the wonderful things in the world… I want to gather them up and leave them to her.



But you know…

This curse in the shape of a dress - this, I don’t want her to have.

to provide more credibility to this. We shall talk about Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern.

Her name was Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern. The head of the Einzberns who had become the nucleus of the Greater Grail.




The Saint of Winter who had sacrificed her own life and given up everything for the sake of realizing a miracle (Sorcery)—that was Shirou Kotomine’s goal and destination. She held all of the grail’s functions under her control.



There are stories of weapons that were made by sacrificing human lives, enchanted into true cursed swords by throwing a maiden into the hot molten iron.



But the Greater Grail was different from those. The Justeaze wasn’t sacrificed to the Greater Grail. First, Justeaze existed, and then she became the Greater Grail.

She is stated in Fate/Apocrypha that she literally became the Greater Grail.

If you are looking for a picture of her. Then here is one from Fate/Grand Order. [1] [2] (Please see picture below the two links before you saw this bolded part for proof that is it Jesteaze. She is also called as "Dark Iri."

When Saber and Lancer begin to fight her. The Main Character calls Justeaze the Greater Grail.

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Debunking some misconceptions.​

1.) The Greater Grail cannot activate its function that bores a hole to the "Outside of the World/Root" if there is still surviving servants. All 7 servants of the main classes must be sacrificed for this function to work. Here is one example; Justeaze cannot activate her functions because there were only 5 servants sacrificed to her.

2.) Singularity F was not a complete Greater Grail. Saber Altria, and Caster Cu were still alive therefore the Greater Grail's Function cannot activate because they were technically still alive according to the rules of the Holy Grail War.

3.) The Greater Grail is the law that decides how much energy in a dimension is used. You can think of it as the worlds rules. This was stated by Da Vinci. Therefore; We can assume that the Grail decides how much energy someone can use.

4.) This gets reinforced as Caster Giles has his Wish from the Holy Grail by getting rejected.

5.) Altera did not use it's almighty powers to instantly erase Rome off the map despite how it should have that capability. Instead, She had to be actively absorbing it inside of her.

8.) It is the Holy Grail that Summons Servants for them to be sacrificed not someone forcing the summons to happen. Which many of the singularities are like that. When the Holy Grail does Summon Servants; 99% of the time they side with Chaldea to protect Humanity.

Servants are summoned by the Holy Grail.


The heroic spirits are summoned to determine whether the summoner deserves the Holy Grail.

Once summoned, they make a contract with a Master to stay in this world and obtain the Holy Grail. Then they go out to defeat the other Masters and Servants.



...In and of itself, that's not a problem.

But once I found out the defeated heroic spirits are absorbed into the Holy Grail, something felt off.

Heroic spirits―――Servants are only a factor in determining which Master is suited for the Holy Grail.

So why are they taken into the Holy Grail after their purpose has been served?

9.) Lesser Grail Black Grail Justeaze comes from how she split apart after her defeat as an Incomplete greater grail in Fate/Grand Order Accel Zero Event. The Lesser Grail fragments are her split apart alter ego forms, Fire Iri, Wind/Air Iri, Earth Iri, Water Iri.

Summary of these points; This is to say that the comparison of characters to holy grails is useless when the best Chaldea has as a comparison is Singularity F which was not a complete Greater Grail, but a broken one.

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My Proposal​

Caster Irisviel = 1-A with Hax

 

[Amakasu]

This is..... Uh wierd. I thought only the root was 1A. But it's good I guess

 

[Paul_Frank]

Those last few scans aren't saying she was a greater grail at all, merely that failing to destroy the black grail broke the lesser grail

Not sure why you brought up the Gilles or Altera thing either because as we see, those are lesser grails, the ones we collect in FGO

That aside, her bond CE does indeed say she's an avatar of the grail, and that the dress is meant to control control grail. So that much checks out yeah.

That said, I'm not sure if it makes sense to give it to her considering she, well, never controls it. She doesn't use any of the powers this world grant, and even her NP mentions she doesn't use any of that stuff as a wish granting device, and it's just an NP her existence sublimated.

 

[Hasty12345]

Looks pretty straight forward to me tbh

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Those last few scans aren't saying she was a greater grail at all, merely that failing to destroy the black grail broke the lesser grail

thats what i was pointing out. I labled that section as "debunking misconceptions." Off website I see people call her the lesser grail due to that. The breaking of an incomplete grail.

Not sure why you brought up the Gilles or Altera thing either because as we see, those are lesser grails, the ones we collect in FGO

The section your referring too was dedicated to proving why the "Greater Grail" doesn't scale to everyone. because there was a certain someone on another thread that wanted to use them having grails, and others being compared to grails. So the section was to debunk that notion.

That said, I'm not sure if it makes sense to give it to her considering she, well, never controls it. She doesn't use any of the powers this would grant, and even her NP mentions she doesn't use any of that stuff as a wish granting device, and it's just an NP her existence sublimated.

I think this is better described as her using the Greater Grails power as being something out of character for her. She is a healer, and a caregiver not a destroyer. She is often stated to be a "Mother-figure."

Also, Dark Irisviel in Fate/Apoc was going to control the grail to bore a hole to the root/outside of the world.

I also question the word "Sublimated" here. I will admit im not very smart when it comes to the English language. but going by the definition of "Sublimated" it doesn't make sense to me. When using a couple of Japanese dictionary websites as well... the word doesn't show up.. So could that word be a mistranslation by the NA team?

sublimated - Jisho.org

jisho.org

RomajiDesu - Japanese dictionary and translator

RomajiDesu is a free online bi-directional Japanese-English dictionary, Kanji dictionary, Sentence analyzer and Japanese to Romaji/English translator, and Romaji to Hiragana/Katakana Converters for Japanese learners. It features sample sentences, multiple radical lookup, audio pronunciation, and...

www.romajidesu.com

Moving on from that. the part where it is talking about her "very existence" is referring to her fundamental being as an avatar of the greater grail "Sublimated" into a noble phantasm.

her bond 5 also calls her "a grail"

What would happen to her as a Grail when she comes in contact with the worthy?

She is compared to Angra in her Bond 2

"Rather than manifesting the “All the Evils of the World” aspect from the polluted Fuyuki Grail, she better represents the personality of “Irisviel von Einzbern” as a mother and wife."

finally; according to the fate/grand order material book entry for her. She is called the same as the terminal for the holy grail, compared to angra, and being called a holy grail as well.

A sneaky person who came out of the Holy Grail. Someone who is the same as the terminal of the Holy Grail.

That is to say, by what kind of cause did this miracle happen? A terminal of the Holy Grail. An infant who returned to the Greater Holy Grail had transformed into a Servant as its bunrei. Unlike the nature that signifies the contaminated Holy Grail————“All the World’s Evils”, that is hidden within Fuyuki’s Holy Grail, Irisviel is strongly being endowed with the profile of the mother “Irisviel von Einzbern” as a wife. What will she do as a Holy Grail when she comes into contact with a person who has the qualifications?"

irisviel-dress-of-heaven | CHALDEAの記録

chaldea.tmdict.com

Edit: I had to look up what the word Bunrei means which appears to be important. considering the sentence; It is saying that she is the greater grails spirit |||| an avatar of the greater grail

Bunrei (Branch Shrine for a Deity) - Japanese Wiki Corpus

The bunrei or wakamitawa is a term used in the Shinto religion that refers to a separated god or divine spirit when an enshrined deity of main shrine is dedicated to a different shrine.

www.japanese-wiki-corpus.org

 

[Bernkastelll]

Seems fine

 

[Hasty12345]

Bump?

 

[Hasty12345]

bump

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Bump...???

 

[Cloozuma]

No tags?

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah seems fine

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Bump...?

How much more input do I need? Is it about time ig et some staf???

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Bump

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not particularly an expert on 1-A stuff, but I recall someone like DontTalkDT, Ultima Reality, or KingPin might be better informed. QuasiYuri is also knowledgeable on Conceptual stuff iirc.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'm not particularly an expert on 1-A stuff, but I recall someone like DontTalkDT, Ultima Reality, or KingPin might be better informed. QuasiYuri is also knowledgeable on Conceptual stuff iirc.

Shes being scaled to something that is already accepted as 1-A on the wiki

but could you tag them if possible please?

thank you...

 

[Ogbunabali]

Not familiar with the verse, but since the Grail is 1-A already, scaling their hax to it seems to be fine from what's in the OP.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Bumping this...

Is this okay to apply..?

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding the Nasuverse, what's the justification for infinite higher dimensions?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Regarding the Nasuverse, what's the justification for infinite higher dimensions?

it happened on this thread

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-1-1-a-root.113096/

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, then this looks fine I suppose.

 

[Elizhaa]

Not familiar with the verse, but since the Grail is 1-A already, scaling their hax to it seems to be fine from what's in the OP.

I shared similar thoughts.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That is 3 staff members who agree with it..

May I go ahead an apply this?

 

[Zencha9]

Yeah it should be fine

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is what im thinking for the wording on the justifications

Tier: 9-B physically, 1-A with her magecraft

Attack Potency: Outerverse level with her magecraft (She is the sentient will, and avatar of the Greater Grail which can bore a pathway that leads to the Swirl of The Root)

Anyone have objections the wording of these justifications? Or does anyone have suggestions to improve upon them?

Do i need to add tier 1 to the catagory section?

 

[Mageman460]

For Iri, I'd suggest a varies with her Magecraft. If I remember correctly we've seen her fight, so she should be 6-C to 1-A? Or 1-A with the Greater Grail.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

For Iri, I'd suggest a varies with her Magecraft. If I remember correctly we've seen her fight, so she should be 6-C to 1-A? Or 1-A with the Greater Grail.

you have a point.

Edit: 9-B physically, 6-C with normal magecraft, 1-A with Greater Grail magic

 

[Cloozuma]

This is what im thinking for the wording on the justifications

Tier: 9-B physically, 1-A with her magecraft

Attack Potency: Outerverse level with her magecraft (She is the sentient will, and avatar of the Greater Grail which can bore a pathway that leads to the Swirl of The Root)

She's becoming Shiki now

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

She's becoming Shiki now

one of the big differences that sets them apart is that Shiki can kill and all her abilities are 1-A

Iri doesn't lead with 1-A stuff in a fight, and she is mostly a mother figure and a healer first iirc.

 

[Cloozuma]

one of the big differences that sets them apart is that Shiki can kill and all her abilities are 1-A

Iri doesn't lead with 1-A stuff in a fight, and she is mostly a mother figure and a healer first iirc.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Tier: 9-B physically, 6-C with her normal magecraft, 1-A with Greater Grail magic

Attack Potency: Wall level physically (Even the weakest Servants can crush human skulls like eggshells with their fingertips), Island level with her normal magecraft (Her magecraft can harm other Servants, who should be at least as strong as Archer), Outerverse level with Greater Grail powers (She is the sentient will, and the Avatar, of the Greater Grail in which the Greater Grail is used to bore a hole that creates a pathway that leads to The Swirl of The Root.)

Does this sound better for everyone? Anyone have further suggestions or improvements?

 

[Hasty12345]

looks good