• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Planck69

Planck69

VS Battles Administrator
21
Joined
Messages
18,718
Reaction score
18,855

Profile posts Latest activity Postings About

  • Teezar
    Hello,its me again am reading some comic book,and I will be creating threads based on questions and answer......so I will like to ask if it will cause issues of spamming? (Too many threads) sorry about my English.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    Try to just summarise your questions about a certain topic on a single thread dedicated to said topic.

    There's no real issue with making single question threads but just use common sense here.
    Teezar
    Teezar
    Ok thank you
    JED
    Hi I saw your comment on the Goku vs Egg Salamander thread. I was curious, you say the scaling chain the Goku side presented was greatly exaggerated? I was wondering how so. This is important because on another thread that is currently ongoing this is the key point as to why people are voting Incon.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I meant the scaling chain involving the Gods of Destruction is exaggerated since only Beerus and Champa scale to the feat and most of the others downscale, as opposed to Sidra being at the bottom of the chain. So, MUI Goku isn't as far above half 2-C as was presented.
    • Like
    Reactions: JED
    The_Unknown_Warrior1
    I had a question if you don't mind answering.
    Can a tier be given for a character if they create a dimension where the concepts of time or space are viewed as irrelevant?
    View previous comments…
    The_Unknown_Warrior1
    The_Unknown_Warrior1
    But if it's possible, is it quantifiable for speed if the fusion is capable of moving in said dimension where time is irrelevant and where the new flow of Majide time takes an eternity to pass? That's all I need to ask
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I have no idea how you'd rate that. Honestly, it seems Unknown to me. Feats involving warped or nonexistent space-time rarely yield anything without a lot of elaboration.
    The_Unknown_Warrior1
    The_Unknown_Warrior1
    Yeah that seems to be the case though I'm still reading the manga at the moment so I'll see if there's any context to it or not, now there are potentially other quantifiable feats like Don Patch becoming an eternal, inescapable extra dimensional story which was described as being 4th dimensional, the whole Majide Time thing and some other feats but I'll save that for a future revision thread.
    Still thanks for the feedback
    Ruphas_Mafahl123
    Yo sorry to bother you with this question, but I just want to know your opinion becouse I've been debating with a guy on discord about this battle.

    How do you think the Naruto verse would be able to get rid of Pennywise's Avatar given his 1-A smurfery and type 9 Inmortality??
    Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
    zndrmme0miv61.png
    LIFE_OF_KING
    Hello, sorry bother you, I have a small question
    • "After growing and advancing for millennia, the Titans were giant, all-knowing entities of spiritual perfection, who could no longer be confined by this mortal plane. In the final stage of their evolution, they ascended into the heavens to become Metal Gods."
    They basically transcended an plane of existence by considering it limited. What can this be considered? (Tier, ability, resistence, etc)
    Planck69
    Planck69
    This is very vague. It could mean transcendence but it could just be a flowery descriptor for their civilization advancing to godhood.
    Migue79
    Hey! Hope you're having a good day.

    Would you be willing to check this CRT to see if it checks out? It's for a verse that has been forgotten in time and in desperate need of revisions lol

    If you are willing, take your time in reading this. It's a bit wordy. 😅

    Thanks in advance!
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I'll try to give it a read.
    Migue79
    Migue79
    Thank you very much for your input. :)
    WeatherShaman
    Why did you close my thread without letting me reply to you? I've only now seen your replies.
    View previous comments…
    WeatherShaman
    WeatherShaman
    I actually really really want you to understand this, so go on a journey with me:

    Let’s start by addressing this question: What is Tier 0.

    First and foremost, “Tier 0” is a terminology that you guys picked, and therefore it can mean anything you want. It can mean cats, it can mean pickle jars. Now, the meaning you ascribe Tier 0 is not reducible to either cats or pickle jars, but to an existence that holds the endpoint of infinite potentiality in a way that stands infinitely apart from every other potentiality. On top of that, you represent it through mathematics. Like how there’s an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2.

    Here is where the problems start. Your representation is not consistent with the meaning that you seek to ascribe Tier 0 and even with the traits possessed by characters that you attribute this tier to. Unless you want to claim that these characters are not reducible to Tier 0 and you only use it because of indexing pragmatism as you specified in that footnote on "Tiering System".

    So we have a contradiction on the table already: Your meaning of Tier 0 seems to point towards the endpoint of infinite potentiality, which is reflected by some choices you made with respect to characters that you deem as Tier 0 (The Amaranth), yet you self-admittingly represent the tier through mathematics because of pragmatism. However, the endpoint of infinite potentiality is automatically outside of mathematics and logic. And I have arguments for this.

    But why is that the case? You might ask. Go on a journey with me:

    The characters you deem as Tier 0 are more than what you represent to be Tier 0, and philosophers, theologists, etc. have thought about the proposition pertinent to the nature of infinite potentiality for a very long time. This proposition can be summed as "God". Not God as in "Zeus", but as in "The Fundamental God". Something like "Allah", "The Dao", even "Shiva" (though Shiva himself is high 1-A because he's an avatar of The Infinite Void which is Tier 0). These Gods are all Tier 0. They hold the Absolute Endpoint of Infinite Potentiality.

    And this is the quintessential understanding of what all these people came to realize about something that is the Absolute Endpoint of Infinite Potentiality. Everyone from Laozi to Carl Jung to Schopenhauer to many others has this common ground between them when it comes to this kind of Being, let's call this Being “The Absolute Being" for simplicity, and I will try to summarize this understanding:

    "The Absolute Being is that which can never be comprehended and that which is fundamental and necessary to everything."

    - Me

    And this is Tier 0: Something that is necessary and fundamental to everything. Not aleph null, not infinity, none of that. The aleph null thing might be relevant for the lower tiers but not for Tier 0. For this tier represents something upon which everything else depends on, of which its most fundamental form is most competently described as nondualistic and therefore incomprehensible for those dualistic existences depending on it (I say the most fundamental form because those dependent on it are also IT expressed in a finite way). Pretty much all the accurately tiered Tier 0 chars are that: The Amaranth, The Creator from Umineko. So Tier 0 is necessary for everything “else”. Tier 0 is necessary, everything from Tier High 1-A to the lowest depends on it. Huge difference there. I guess you could say that the only meaningful infinite disparity in potentiality is between 0 and everything else. That goes for the reason that from High 1-A to the lowest everything has a cap, no matter how far that cap is. But Tier 0 is the only existence with no cap.

    Let's break down this statement more:

    Why is this kind of being necessary?

    There's no doubt that there is existence, you can verify this with the epistemological truth "I think therefore I am". So we postulate existence. Generally, in philosophy, there are 2 types of existence: Necessary Existence, and dependent existence.

    Necessary Existence is something that can never be described by a dependant existence, but we can make some inferences about such Existence and our relationship with It. The Necessary is Absolute by definition. It has to be because otherwise, it's not Necessary. Something Necessary has to be Fundamental and something Fundamental is Absolute. There also can’t be more than 2 Absolutes because that means neither is Absolute. You can have an infinite amount of High 1-A Tiers but with Tier 0, you CAN’T.

    Now, the level of "Absolute" is debatable. There are different possibilities of Absolute:

    1. Something that can do anything no matter what it is: Can manipulate contradictions, can create square circles, can even make it so that THEY exist and not exist at the same time. Which would be "Hard Nonduality";

    2. Something that can still manipulate contradictions, create square circles, but they most likely cannot make it so that they exist and not exist at the same time. This is Soft Nonduality. (This is where I stand. THE MINIMUM we postulate is existence. So they have to at least exist. Although this doesn't exclude them being able to erase their own existence, which would not be reversible);

    3. Something maximally strong. Can do anything that can be done. Excludes making square circles (In my view, this is not likely. They. Have. To. Be. Able. To. Make. Square. Circles. ****. It [maybe].).

    So The Fundamental is characterized by being Absolute which entails being Symmetrical, Nondual, Infinite Potential-Having, and these traits can be best represented by dual beings like us through the law of noncontradiction. Why? Because logical contradictions are the most taboo things that can ever exist for us. A square circle is literally not a thing. You can’t imagine it, just like The Absolute Existence.

    This is how I represent the Absolute’s powers and subsequently nonduality through syntax:

    Absolute: p ∧ ¬ p is True (unless you want to argue that an absolute is just maximally strong and can't generate square circles & make contradictions like "The sky does and doesn't exist." coherent. But trying to define an absolute is useless so we'll put a fork in that debate.)

    Finite: p ∧ ¬ p is False, but p ∨ ¬ p can be True.

    Natural language:

    Absolute: The proposition: "The sky does(p) and(∧) doesn't(¬ p) exist." is True.

    Finite: The proposition: "The sky does(p) and(∧) doesn't(¬ p) exist." is False, but the proposition: "The sky can or(∨) can not exist." is True.

    Why is this kind of being non-describable?

    Well… explaining it kind of beats the idea. They just are. Dual beings presuppose disparity, Nondual beings don’t. You just can’t conceptualize Nonduality because your mind Works in Duality. And that is why Nonduality can never be represented through Dual languages like math. It’s like trying to describe math with physics as opposed to the reverse. And even this analogy is not a true analogy because it works in duality.

    This brings us to our main dish, my argument in the thread that you closed.

    IF we assume the aforementioned premises then we’re left with this entailment and reductio:

    The Tier 0 Being is Absolute, and that is true because we take it as a presupposition given the fact that we address the Absolute endpoint of potentiality; 2) You can't have 2 Absolutes. It doesn't make sense, saying that you can have 2 Absolutes means neither is Absolute; 3) Something Absolute is also meta-permeant. It can bypass any fictional meta. No... it does that simply by inferring the previous 2 premises.

    C: There’s only 1 Tier 0 per Omniverse. And yes, our universe is also part of that so fiction is real and every universe is connected and we can postulate that via the argument from contingency + the entailment that infinite potentiality in the nondual on every axis entails infinite potential in the dual.

    Brother Mohammed explains the argument from contingency very well. < Why is it the case that such existence exists.

    So Idk man. I honestly call for a complete revision of Tier 0. It's best represented through the law of noncontradiction and where it breaks, and we have the backed-up inferences above of what that means.

    “Armchair Philosophy”. Look, barely of what I say here is something new. I just ride on the shoulder of giants here: Schopenhauer, Carl Jung, Nietzsche, eastern religions, many great arguments, a preponderance of reason that pinpoints to these answers... etc. So watching 1 Vsauce video once doesn't warrant getting cocky over this stuff especially in front of these beasts.

    If you think this proposition is clear cut then you haven't paid attention to the literature
    Planck69
    Planck69
    You do realise that Tier 0 is a site chosen metric right? It's not a philosophical concept, it's what a bunch of people who want to tier fictional characters online decided to use as a benchmark for a certain level of power based on mathematics. This "beyond omnipotent beyond description" stuff isn't a thing here.

    Seriously, go bother the people listed as knowledgeable members on the tiering system about this. I have neither the will nor the interest to debate why our sites standards aren't wrong for not using something that doesn't exist.
    WeatherShaman
    WeatherShaman
    I realize that and even specified that I understand how Tier 0 is a metric used for pragmatic reasons. So I've been pretty perceptive of that. I'm just saying that Tier 0 CHARACTERS are more than what you take to be Tier 0. Way, way more than that. There's a lot of mis-tiering as well.. Maria shouldn't be Tier 0 and I say this as an avid Umineko fan. There are a lot more inferences to be made about such an existence than linear mathematical infinity. And you even touch that briefly in the description of Tier 0: "able to blah blah transcendental concepts and such", so you hint at more but you don't accept when that more is cleared up which is a bit puzzling but ok.

    Ok, I just wanted to clear my position up

    Have a good day

    Also, it exists.
    Planc, sorry to bother, what is the '' statistics explanation keys '', can you give an example from a character's profile, I need to see how it is created.
    Grand_Saver_Ritsuka
    r54tux176vr61.png
    Regidian
    Hi could you please unlock this page if you can to add what was accepted? It's for the servant crt

    vsbattles.fandom.com

    Servant Physiology

    Servants are spirits summoned by the Holy Grail to compete under Masters in the Holy Grail War. Typically, they are Heroic Spirits, beings of a higher existence given to them by the people's ideals of them, but can also be Divine Spirits, Phantoms, Wraiths, and even normal humans, in extreme...
    vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I'm a Thread Moderator, I can't do that.
    Regidian
    Regidian
    Ow sorry lol
    Dereck03
    Hello, sorry for bother but can you close this thread??? Everyone rejected it and we are asking for someone who can close it
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I have closed the thread.

    And no worries on it being a bother, I'm here to help.
    Dereck03
    Dereck03
    Oki and thanks so much 👌
    Lormac_CC
    Please I need your input on this thread
    vsbattles.com

    Venuzdonoa/Anos possible downgrade

    This is my first CRT. I believe Venuzdonoa shouldn't be 2-B. Here's why Note: Every scan and translation were gotten from past CRTs, the accepted cosmology blog for the verse and Anos page as I am not quite knowledgeable on the verse. Reason why Venuzdonoa is 2-B "Venuzdonoa can destroy all...
    vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I have no knowledge of the verse in question. Best to ask staff members that do.
    Garchomp777
    Can meng hao stop time for beings beyond the concept of tim
    Planck69
    Planck69
    I mean, at that point you're really not stopping time. But in a sense, he can.
    Regidian
    Can you show me where it's tell that he continues to add thread after the infinite box was created for his universe?
    View previous comments…
    Regidian
    Regidian
    I mean nepuko if the physique and hax are not same tier than why their are fully 1-A? Otherwise i don't understand the comparaison with void shiki since even if it's like her and they just possesse the body when they want, the physical should still have a different tier.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    They can create Daos with their physical bodies just fine. Like, the only thing limiting them is the natural laws of the setting.
    Nepuko
    Nepuko
    Yes, they are fully 1-A because they are Essences unto themselves in all aspects. The ones who aren't fully 1-A are those half a step into the 4th step, who are technically 1-A in only one or 2 aspects (either body, soul, cultivation base or a combination of 2 of those). 4th step are 1-A in body, soul and cultivation base, in "all" aspects.

    The Void Shiki analogy was to show you what argument you're trying to make, it does not properly reflect the reality. If we use the Shiki analogy, it would be like Void Shiki saying "Anyone who isn't at the same level as my Hax cannot enter my House on Earth". A House on Earth isn't even Tier 8, but to enter it that means you have to be on the same level as her Void hax, i.e. 1-A. It doesn't mean you're Tier 9.

    Adding on to that, the "environment" in Er Gen verse itself cultivates. For example, you can have a Universe-level Sun.....an actual Sun. That can destroy Universes, has Universal+ durability and has 4-D hax. So going like "lol they destroyed that sun, they should be Tier 4" is wrong in that instance, for example, as it would be Tier 2. But I digress.
    Greatsage13th
    View previous comments…
    Greatsage13th
    Greatsage13th
    Planck69
    Planck69
    They both haven't seen the clip and aren't knowledgeable members, when you start saying stuff like that then of course they'll agree.

    Whatever, I don't care about this anymore. Ask some other members just don't keep bothering me with this verse.
    Greatsage13th
    Greatsage13th
    I already pointed out your arguements there about that it didn't represent any idea/concept of any nature and throughout the entire thread I constantly reminded them that it was never stated to represent anything at all.

    Edit: fixed element would more likely mean it is a fixed idea from what I found.

    What fixed means?
    1a : securely placed or fastened : stationary. b(1) : nonvolatile. (2) : formed into a chemical compound. c(1) : not subject to change or fluctuation a fixed income. (2) : firmly set in the mind a fixed idea.
  • Loading…
  • Loading…
  • Loading…
Back
Top