Saint Seiya 8th Sense 5D HDE Removal

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Alright so, recently 8th Sense users were upgraded to having 5-D HDE. I'll be going over the evidence used and why I believe it does not remotely fit the Wiki standards for a higher dimension (or just isn't valid in general), and should be removed.

The reason for this is because The Soul and Mind have a change in their dimensionality when the 8th stage of consciousness is awakened.

So here, the fact that Illias says this as something that applies to all souls (not something exclusive to those who awaken 8th sense) makes it abundantly evident that he's not referring to some literal change in dimensionality, but simply referring to the description in the series of souls ascending to the Underworld (another dimension) after death.

There are countless scenes in the series that clearly show us that merely becoming a disembodied soul out of a dead body does that remotely equate to them becoming higher dimensional objects, as they can still be contained within, finite, 3-D spaces and like most interpretations of souls in fiction, are relative in size to their real 3-D bodies. I feel as though this shouldn't even need citations since it's so common knowledge to anyone who knows the slightest about the series, but regardless I'll leave a few notable scenes that showcase this below.

Spoiler

Note that at this point Saga/Camus/Shura don't have the 8th sense (which they only awakened upon their deaths in the Hades Arc), and yet we see their souls being contained in normal 3-D spaces (as you know, normal souls), and even being made to don 3-D Cloths of regular size, proving their relativity. The point about Cloths is shown in Shiryu vs. Deathmask too.

Even in the other thread, the notion that every soul in the verse is 5-D, wasn't accepted. This statement has no merit.

by transcending space as well as time which allowed characters to know everything[3].

To quote the wiki standards page again:

A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.
A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.

And lets look at the translated statement:

It’s…..almost as if something separated from me. Almost as if I knew the workings of the world from the beginning. I, who understand what I am, my thoughts transcend space as well as time. Indeed, I will never be lost…

Very straightforward here. His thoughts transcended space and time (not his being itself), and as he notes in the previous sentence and the what the Wiki standards require, the background context here is that this in reference to him gaining knowledge of the workings of the world. This has absolutely nothing to do with 5-D dimensional transcendence or existence.

This allows the users to perceive the Multiverse.[4]

Cool but, this has nothing to do with higher dimensions either. And it says he can perceive multiple dimensions, not multiverse, but it doesn't matter either way.

It ascends higher escaping the Higher Dimensional membrane of The Universe[2]

This is so grossly out of context it's hard to think where to even begin.

Asmita here is saying that the higher plane Illias was in felt as if it were beyond some thin impenetrable membrane, but now he'd finally reached it. The statement by nature is a metaphorical comparison and not literal, and even if it were literal, he never calls it some higher dimensional membrane or anything like that in the scans, nor does he make any note of the universe. And also, from the above, we already know Illias spiritual existence was in the regular world, and this in reference to his mind/consciousness.

The actual context of this realm that Illias's mind reached and his state of being and how they get there makes it clear this interpretation makes absolutely no sense of it being some 5-D higher spatial dimension or dimensional transcendence to reach it.

To preface this part, I'll note the Wiki standards regarding "higher dimension/plane" statements.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.

As the standards say, it's important to note what exactly is meant here by a "higher dimension" in the context of the setting itself, and should have evidence of being qualitatively superior to the universe, like encompassing it within itself, seeing it as fiction, being a higher state of being. None of this is the case whatsoever here.

Spoiler

Asmita:やはり彼の小宇宙は輪廻を外れ世界にとけ込み生きている
Asmita: After all, his cosmo is out of Samsara (cycle of life and death), blending into the world and living in it.
Asmita: Fue el leo anterior... como lo pense, su cosmos ha salido del ciclo de muerte y resurrection y sigue viviendo en este mundo.
Asmita: It was the previous Leo... as I thought, his cosmo has come out of the cycle of death and resurrection and continues to live on in this world.

From the summary of the chapter courtesy of the translators at SaintSeiyaForos:
Afirma que es el León anterior y que su cosmos está fuera del ciclo de la vida y la muerte, viviendo integrado en el mundo.
He affirms that he is the previous Lion and that his cosmo is outside the cycle of life and death, living integrated into the world.

So from the following, we are already given direct confirmation that Illias' soul/cosmo continues to exist in the regular world as an integrated part, merely unbound by the cycle of life and death (as others who have awakened 8th sense).

Spoiler

]

1st page:
Japanese:
Asmita:それ故貴方の意識の位まで己を高めれば ならなかった
Asmita: Therefore, I had to raise myself to your level of consciousness.
Spanish:
Asmita: Finalmente logre alcanzar su cosmos.. Esta espacio es un campo de batalla para tus pensamientos. Por eso tenia que ascender al nivel de su conciencia.
Asmita: I finally managed to reach his cosmos. This space is a battlefield for thoughts. As so, you have to ascend to the level of his consciousness.

2nd page:
Japanese:
Illias: 二人共よくぞこの次元へ至るまでたか小宇宙を高めたな
Illias: You two have done a great job raising your cosmo to come to this dimension.
Spanish:
Illias: Lo hicieron muy bien elevaron sus cosmos hasta alcanzar esta dimension.
Illias: They did well, they raised their cosmos to reach this dimension

3rd page:
Japanese:
Illias: それは私の思考の陣の内に己の思考の陣…
Illias: It's your array of thoughts within my array of my thoughts...
Spanish:
Illias: Este es tu espacio mental dentro de mi espacio mental.
Illias: This is your mental space within my mental space.
Thirdeye's (SaintSeiyaForos) translation:
Illias: Ese es tu territorio de pensamiento dentro de mi territorio de pensamiento
Illias: This is your thought territory within my thought territory.

4th page:
Japanese:
Sisyphos:そうだどのここはイリアス殿の強烈な思考が実現する世界. すなわち私がこの現象を信じねば実現しない世界
Sisyphos: Yes, this is the world where the intense thoughts of Lord Ilias are realized/come true. In other words, a world where I must believe in this phenomenon in order for it to come true.
Spanish:
Sisyphos: Este es el espacio del Senor Ilias. Los intensos pensamientos y deseos del senor allias se materializan. Tengo que agudizar mis sentidos y buscar mas profundo en mi interior. En otras palabras, un espaco inalcanzable al menos que se reproducuzca un fenomeno.
Sisyphos: This is Ilias' space. The intense thoughts and desires of Mr. Ilias materialize. I have to sharpen my senses and search deeper within myself. In other words, a space that is unreachable unless a phenomenon is reproduced.

Thirdeye's translation:
Sisyphos: Ciertamente, en este mundo los intensos pensamientos y deseos de Ilias se materializan. En otras palabras, un mundo que no puede alcanzarse a menos que crea en este fenómeno. Tengo que aferrarme a mis sentidos y buscar incluso más profundo dentro de mí... incluso más...
Sisyphos: Indeed, in this world Ilias' intense thoughts and desires materialize. In other words, a world that cannot be reached unless you believe in this phenomenon.

So to summarize.
What this dimension is:

A mental plane created and shaped by the thoughts of Illias, Sisyphos, and Asmita, as stated, and shown through the fight sequences and interactions in it where we see their thoughts shaping said reality (such as Illias' thoughts manifesting a train to ram into Sisyphos and Asmita).

How this dimension was reached:
As stated and shown above, this dimension is reached simply by raising one's consciousness and searching within himself and believing in the respective phenomenon of a world where thoughts create reality. This has absolutely nothing to do with dimensional transcendence whatsoever or breaching some sort of higher dimensional membrane. .

I think this is quite self explanatory at this point. The higher dimension statement is in reference to the plane being a higher dimension of thought and consciousness, and isn't remotely some actual physical spatial dimension or an R>F transcendent reality that views the universe as fiction whatsoever, not even close. It's not even inherently real by conventional terms and is shown to be a metaphysical, mental thing, hence why it can be reached simply by raising one's level of consciousness and searching deep within one's mind, which in this case clearly has 0 pertinence to any sort of dimensional transcendence. Especially since we know that even for Illias himself, his actual spiritual existence is still confirmed to be in the regular world, further proving the abstract, mental nature of this world.


Proposal: Simple. The 5-D HDE for 8th sense souls gets removed. If people wanna discuss what other abilities, if any, the scenes involving this mental dimension may merit, I kindly request that it be done in its own thread.

Agree: Firestorm808 (Admin), Mr._Bambu (Admin), DarkDragonMedeus (Admin) Alonik, LuffyRuffy46307
Disagree: Danny33wise, TheUnshakeableOne, Koolray, Hiryu-Z, Dr._whiteee

 

[Xxiaa]

I recommend including the thread that got it accepted in the first place. As well as including actual RAWS/Japanese texts you should know the Spanish and other translations are horribly translated, they’re not the native language the series is written in and thus leaves room for massive errors which we’ve seen.

Anyway not gonna clutter so I’ll wait for more

(Complete Saint Seiya verse Overhaul Part 1) - Perhaps one of the top 10 most ambitious overhauls to a verse in vswiki history?

These 2 blogs I created need reviewed, and potentially turned into pages for the wiki. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:TheUnshakableOne/sandbox https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TheUnshakableOne/The_8th_Sense_in_Saint_Seiya_Explained Explanation of the first blog summarized...

vsbattles.com

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I recommend including the thread that got it accepted in the first place. As well as including actual RAWS/Japanese texts you should know the Spanish and other translations are horribly translated, they’re not the native language the series is written in and thus leaves room for massive errors which we’ve seen.

Anyway not gonna clutter so I’ll wait for more

(Complete Saint Seiya verse Overhaul Part 1) - Perhaps one of the top 10 most ambitious overhauls to a verse in vswiki history?

These 2 blogs I created need reviewed, and potentially turned into pages for the wiki. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:TheUnshakableOne/sandbox https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:TheUnshakableOne/The_8th_Sense_in_Saint_Seiya_Explained Explanation of the first blog summarized...

vsbattles.com

Sure, I quoted and addressed every argument in the OP of that thread point by point already.

With all due respect, TLCDiary where the scans are referenced from is pretty reputable with a good track record when it comes to the reliability of its scanlations, and I also went out of my way to link the thread where Thirdeye (another reputed SS translator from SaintSeiyaForos) also did his own typeset of the chapter, and the translated summary of the first chapter being done by Taizen SS themselves.

But yeah you're right in the end, it's not infallible to error, so if someone has a link to the raws or is aware of anything in them that may give a different perspective to these two separate translations that coincide with each other perfectly, I encourage it be posted.

Though I highly doubt it'll be any different whatsoever, as the nature of this plane being a mental plane created and shaped by Illias and Asmitas' thoughts is quite evident from every bit of surrounding context and scenes depicted in panelling itself, which in itself is a damning refutation to the notion of it being some literal physical higher spatial dimension/R>F reality.

 

[Xxiaa]

Sure, I quoted and addressed every argument in the OP of that thread point by point already.

With all due respect, TLCDiary where the scans are referenced from is pretty reputable with a good track record when it comes to the reliability of its scanlations, and I also went out of my way to link the thread where Thirdeye (another reputed SS translator from SaintSeiyaForos) also did his own typeset of the chapter, and the translated summary of the first chapter being done by Taizen SS themselves.

But yeah you're right in the end, it's not infallible to error, so if someone has a link to the raws or is aware of anything in them that may give a different perspective to these two separate translations that coincide with each other perfectly, I encourage it be posted.

Though I highly doubt it'll be any different whatsoever, as the nature of this plane being a mental plane created and shaped by Illias and Asmitas' thoughts is quite evident from every bit of surrounding context and scenes depicted in panelling itself, which in itself is a damning refutation to the notion of it being some literal physical higher spatial dimension/R>F reality.

Not gonna comment much, simply get the RAWS for the Spanish portions of your refutations. The upgrade thread uses countless RAWS looked at by onsite staff who are also knowledgeable in tier 2/1. It isn’t reliant on other languages that aren’t the original so with respect to whoever translates the Spanish scans they seem to not do a wonderful job considering it’s been proven to be inaccurate before. Even professional million dollar companies like viz tend to mistranslate between Japanese to English

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Not gonna comment much, simply get the RAWS for the Spanish portions of your refutations. The upgrade thread uses countless RAWS looked at by onsite staff who are also knowledgeable in tier 2/1. It isn’t reliant on other languages that aren’t the original so with respect to whoever translates the Spanish scans they seem to not do a wonderful job considering it’s been proven to be inaccurate before.

Well ,none of my refutation hinges on calling anything a mistranslation or anything like that, just simply pointing completely glossed over context as to the nature of this dimension, whereas the thread this was accepted provided no information on this besides that the higher dimension statement devoid all the context. None of the staff in that thread were presented with all the context of it being a mental realm reached simply by raising one's consciousness and looking deeper within one's mind and believing in a world where thoughts create reality, which very straightforwardly shows it isn't some 5-D spatial dimension in any shape or form, and ties into the Wiki standards of higher dimension statements needing certain explicit content to qualify in this way.

But sure, give me a bit and I'll find the raws and edit them into the OP.

 

[Xxiaa]

Again not talking about anything else other than the Spanish translation points you made. If you could edit in the Japanese text that’d be great. get them looked at onsite and or maybe something like https://www.reddit.com/r/translator...utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1where they’re completely unbias and simply provide translations.

Anyway that’s basically it for now just making sure the native language is being used since the series is known for errors

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Sure, will do ASAP. I'll edit in the japanese scans along with the text right now (as soon as I find the raws), and request a further translation on site to verify whatever I get as well. That should suffice.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Alright, I've edited the OP with all the raws along with their typesets.

From what I've gathered translating it through dictionaries and DeepL, as expected, everything perfectly in order with the other two translations I used and the arguments I've made, some raws even gave further wording and insight to my points, such as this:

Sisyphos:そうだどのここはイリアス殿の強烈な思考が実現する世界. すなわち私がこの現象を信じねば実現しない世界
Sisyphos: Yes, this is the world where the intense thoughts of Lord Ilias are realized/come true. In other words, a world where I must believe in this phenomenon in order for it to come true.

But regardless, I've posted the necessary sentences on both the onsite translation thread and r/translator to get another verification and be coherent as possible. That should be more than sufficient.

 

[Danny33wise]

I will wait for knowledgeable SS debator to debate you first before giving my own opinion because i feel like am gonna be leaning toward (disagree).

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I completely agree, I thought it wasn't going to happen.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Completely and wholly disagree with the discontextualization.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Completely and wholly disagree with the discontextualization.

Care to elaborate what’s discontextualized?

 

[Executor_N0]

The translations given here are correct. After that it's all up to the interpretation of the material.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Thank you for confirming that.

 

[Victor1251]

Vou esperar que um debatedor experiente da SS debata com você antes de dar minha própria opinião, porque sinto que estou inclinado a (discordo).

²

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Would be nice if y'all could actually give some reasoning as to why you would disagree instead of just doing it to do it as it's coming off. Or at least point out what's not clear enough in the OP which I tried to make as coherent as I can but am willing to elaborate if necessary. With the confirmation that the translations are accurate I don't see what else needs to be said.

So to summarize what's directly stated and confirmed through the translations:
-This "higher plane" in question is simply a deeper level of consciousness that culminates in this collective mental dimension created by Asmita/Sisyphos/Illias.

-It's not reached through any standard dimensional means that would be the case for a higher spatial dimension or R>F reality, but looking deeper within one's mind and simply raising one's consciousness, and believing in the phenomenon of a world where thoughts create reality.

-And I clarify again, Illias' himself too's real spiritual existence is still verbatim confirmed to be living on in the regular world. So it's not even inherently his actual soul there, but a reflection of it in their minds. To quote Asmita himself, "a battlefield for thoughts."

All this makes the point of it being a mental plane (as it's stated to be) where Illias and co. only existed in through their minds/consciousness perceiving it, which along with it all, in itself is another point that completely debunks the notion of their souls ever going to a literal higher dimension (as Illias soul didn't even go there, it's just a metaphysical place perceived through his mind). Put bluntly, it's clearly not any sort of physical spatial dimension or higher reality.

Per the wiki standards on "higher planes" and needing to evaluate it through in setting context, in this case it's quite clear it doesn't remotely check off any criteria of anything 5-D.

The translations given here are correct. After that it's all up to the interpretation of the material.

Does the logic above in regards to the material seem sound here?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'll have counter arguments later, but I'll be on vacation soon so ir maybe Saturday or Sunday before I can reply.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

No worries take your time

 

[Firestorm808]

To clarify, is this infinite transcendence 5-D or generic 5-D HDE?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

To clarify, is this infinite transcendence 5-D or generic 5-D HDE?

Its 5D by wiki standards. A lot of disinformation, extrapolating assumptions with headcanon arguments by twisting context, and (dis)contexualization, here. It's only 5D HDE for mind and souls.

Edit: anyone whose read the whole franchise would understand. He's basically playing, and banking on staff who hasn't read the series to agree.

This isn't the first time. He also purposely discontexualizates the series to give overpowered Regeneration to 8th sense users, and he uses that to say everything is non-canon but the original. However, the story directly states they dont have Regeneration at all. He still uses such argument.

Think of discontexualization and disinformation as being the same.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Its 5D by wiki standards. A lot i
Of disinformation, extrapolating assumptions with oure headcanon arguments, and discontexualization, here. It's only 5D HDE for mind and souls.

None of it is disinformation or assumptions or headcanon (on the contrary, that's what the original thread arguing over a one liner removed of all this context was) , everything argued is stated directly by the characters or showcased through the nature of this realm.

And it's doesn't apply to their souls in any case, Illias' soul itself is directly confirmed to be be living on integrated into the normal world. He's literally in the same boat as Regulus, who too states that he's going to become part of nature and says he reached the world where Illias could feel. The first chapter where Illias saves Sisyphos through the wind is a painfully obvious reference to the ending of Regulus vs. Rhadamanthys.

It's a purely mental plane and there's nothing that fits the Wiki standards to suggest it's 5-D, as detailed in the OP.

 

[Alonik]

Agreed. I would also like to add that it is not said in the original translation that awakened users sees the multiverse with the Eighth Sense, but rather multiple dimensions. Moreover, it has no implication of a qualitative difference in Tier 2 even if we take the "multiverse" part as a real meaning right here.

Not least because in the episode G.A it is shown that there is an underworld version for each universe, there would be no reason for souls to ascend and start seeing other universes when they only ascend to the plane of existence of the Yomotsu Hirazaka, which is part of the universe, but a whole other dimension. I can also pick up the evidence about the underworld been described as subspace/hyperspace in the Japanese taizen. If you need it, let me know.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Agreed. I would also like to add that it is not said in the original translation that awakened users sees the multiverse with the Eighth Sense, but rather multiple dimensions. Moreover, it has no implication of a qualitative difference in Tier 2 even if we take the "multiverse" part as a real meaning right here.

Completely agreed.

Not least because in the episode G.A it is shown that there is an underworld version for each universe, there would be no reason for souls to ascend and start seeing other universes when they only ascend to the plane of existence of the Yomotsu Hirazaka, which is part of the universe, but a whole other dimension. I can also pick up the evidence about the underworld been described as subspace/hyperspace in the Japanese taizen. If you need it, let me know.

Exactly. Since the original manga it's been said that souls "ascend" to the Underworld, which is a typical statement of moving between the world of life and death in fiction, this is even acknowledged in the Wiki's standards.

Tiering System FAQ

A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.

So we know this is absolutely worthless information for an argument for Tier 1 anything.

And I'd love to discuss the part about the Underworld on message wall further (I'd like this thread itself to stay on topic as much as possible), I actually have a revision of the Underworld planned myself too, just have put it on hold for the moment until Next Dimension finishes in a few months in case some new information comes up.

 

[Hasty12345]

Not least because in the episode G.A it is shown that there is an underworld version for each universe

That’s not true.

 

[Alonik]

That’s not true.

Shun of "universe 2" is literally Hades from that universe and all the bronze saints from that universe were killed in the underworld from that timeline. While in the main universe in episode G.A Hades is dead and the Sanctuary rules the Underworld with a treaty with Radamanthys that controls the underworld now.

 

[Hasty12345]

Shun of "universe 2" is literally Hades from that universe and all the bronze saints from that universe were killed in the underworld from that timeline. While in the main universe in episode G.A Hades is dead and the Sanctuary rules the Underworld with a treaty with Radamanthys that controls the underworld now.

I don’t see how that proves anything.

there’s dialogue that directly contradicts the notion of multiple of each god.

new GR information outright stated it in the most basic way possible.

not to mention, we only ever see Shunades in flashbacks, there is no shot of him in the “present”.
Given universes have different time flows relative to one another, if we actually take in all the context, Shunades and “universe 1” Hades not only never have to coexist, but there’s evidence to the contrary.

 

[Alonik]

I don’t see how that proves anything.

there’s dialogue that directly contradicts the notion of multiple of each god.

There is no mention of this, just a lack of understanding from Okada's Twitter was talking about.

new GR information outright stated it in the most basic way possible.

Requiem literally kept proving this. Shura literally killed the Gods of other universes as well as killing the divine sword deities from other universes.

not to mention, we only ever see Shunades in flashbacks, there is no shot of him in the “present”.
Given universes have different time flows relative to one another, if we actually take in all the context, Shunades and “universe 1” Hades not only never have to coexist, but there’s evidence to the contrary.

From the moment Shun turned Hades and killed all the Bronze Saints in Pope Aiolos' universe, it already shows that it is an underworld from a different universe, since it is stated by Seiya from Universe 1 that they killed Hades.

• Shunhades from Universe in the final battle of the underworld after Aiolos kills Zeus
• Seiya from Pope Aiolos universe was wandering beyond the cycle of death and rebirth
  • Shun Hades claims precisely that the Seiya from that world (universe) would never return, and the hope of that world was complet vanished.
  • Dohko literally says that these memories where Shun was possessed by Hades are from a world in the Multiverse
  • Shiryu sees a world in the Multiverse (probably the fight of the underworld before pope Aiolos sided with Hades), where him and Hyoga was killed by the hands of Shun Hades, while Ikki was still the last one alive
  • Shun Hades from that Universe impaled Hades' sword in Ikki's chest
• Dohko from the supposed "universe" claims the following:
  • It was only possible... To stop the Great God Zeus' invasion of earth thanks to... The sacrifice of all the saints who nobly gave their lives in battle... And Shun, who helped us while hold back the will of Hades.
• Shun Hades of that universe literally killed Saori Kido, the Athena, which shows that interpreting Okada's Twitter as "there is only one God per Multiverse" is lack of interpretation (or any other scan of sort, like Zeus from Universe 2 getting weird about the differences in events in universe 1)

Why is this important you tell me? Well, any reader of Saint Seiya knows that the Seiya of the main universe, Shiryu, Hyoga, Saori Kido are all alive. I'll give the meat itself: Seiya confirms in the G.A episode that he overthrew Hades, and Sigurd claims that it is a very grave sin for killing a god (In context, Hades). Besides that the story where Seiya is out of the reincarnation cycle is quite different from Universe 1, Seiya with the help of his friends got out of the Hades' death grasp and several problems, but he did it, and disappeared into the world. And disappearing in the world is not synonymous to disappearing beyond the cycle of reeincanation as in like what happed with Seiya of the Universe 2, Seiya of Universe 1 only went out in the world because he was weak from not fully recovering after the damage against Hades' sword, which is what he explains to Philipp with the remorse of having become a burden to athena and all his siblings who have evolved into Gold Saints (Shiryu, Hyoga, Shun, Ikki).

I don't know how you tell me how this is false, if the plot of Saint Seiya episode G.A is basically Aiolos who is Pope in Universe 2, is trying to invade Universe 1 and trying to kill Saori Kido, to replace with Athena of Chaos. Aldebaran from Universe 2 literally explains to Shura the war between his world's sanctuary (universe 2), to the world they're in (Universe 1), and explicitly claims that in that world "It was to have Athena... Be given life in the form of twins". Also, let's not forgot how Athena is supposed to die at the Hands of Pegasus, and it did in the main timeline as well.

Since we are going to talk about Episode G.Requiem, let's talk about how Shura has become an existence between the temporal dimensions of the Multiverse and it is stated by Brontes that Shura is fighting against Gods (it is translated in English as God, but the meaning is plural).

And don't forget: In universe 1 Hades is killed in his true body, while in an alternate timeline he takes over Shun's body and kills all the bronze saint, which mean that gods have indeed temporal variants.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Guys is this really relevant here

 

[Hasty12345]

I honestly don’t even know if I can be ****** explaining how all of this is wrong.

I don’t even know how you can come to this conclusion without presupposing it.

LW Seiya didn’t even have god cloth (evident by the fact his soul was wearing the basic bronze cloth and there’s no actual mention or showing of him having it).

there’s not a single line of dialogue in all of LW that even indicates the events happened in the UW, in fact the opposite is true. We see Shunades in Sanctuary talking to Aiolos where Athena was be headed.

Shura is killing gods yes… but they are giants, we see this in GR special 4 where he kills one of Uranus’ soldiers who is like Steropes and Arges (same chapter that states Uranus needs cosmo from all worlds to revive, same chapter that says Gaia was to reclaim all of creation, same chapter that shows Pontos himself was invading other worlds to gather said cosmo, Shura explains how Kido is “like him” a being who’s sole purpose is to endlessly fight for their god).

most of not everything you’ve posted doesn’t say or prove anything you’re claiming.

you cannot prove Shunades of LW was possessed by Hades during the events Seiya and the others defeating Hades. You cannot prove the events of LW occurred in the UW, not that it matters as they never could have gotten past the wailing wall anyway and just as easily could have been defeated prior to the events of GA bronzes making it to the UW (again timeflow between universes isn’t constant, you cannot prove events occur in parallel to one another).

Zeus himself is a god who has defeated many Seiya’s, restituted many worlds. Every line of dialogue the guy has contradicts your interpretation.

Nothing I’ve mentioned uses any sort of Twitter statement, I don’t even know what Twitter statement you’re referring to.

Pontos literally needing to gather cosmo from every world to revive Uranus and yet asked Uranus for soldiers due to the Titans being trapped within Tartarus never to return proves he cannot just go revive another arbitrary set of Titans to fight for him and the fact there’s only one set of titans prove there’s only one set of Olympians (unless you somehow expect Kronos and Rhea to have had infinite children…).

the plot of G is incoherent with temporal variants of gods.

 

[Hasty12345]

Guys is this really relevant here

Alonik made it relevant.

edit: I’d also like to point out singular gods was accepted in the canon blog a couple CRTs ago, so it is currently the position of the wiki that gods are singular

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

It was brought up as an extremely minor supporting argument. What's important here is statements about "ascending to the Underworld" means nada in regards to arguing the 8th sense users being 5-D beings. That doesn't change no matter how many Underworlds there are.

 

[Hasty12345]

It was brought up as an extremely minor supporting argument. What's important here is statements about "ascending to the Underworld" means nada in regards to arguing the 8th sense users being 5-D beings. That doesn't change no matter how many Underworlds there are.

I agree. Singular deities are already accepted, if Alonik wants to debate it he should make a crt to change it.

any further discussion on that point is derailment and should be treated as such.

 

[Alonik]

Guys is this really relevant here

It is meant to be, because this breaks the idea of 5D even further. But since you can't see strinkings points of the lore I will answer Hasty one last time and stop following the thread.

 

[Hasty12345]

It is meant to be, because this breaks the idea of 5D even further. But since you can't see strinkings points of the lore I will answer Hasty one last time and stop following the thread.

The OP has asked us to stop and continuing would be derailment.

anything you want to answer to me can be done on my wall without derailing this thread.

 

[Hasty12345]

What’s more is each universe could have a corresponding 5D UW.

it’s literally the most irrelevant point that could be brought up.

 

[Alonik]

What’s more is each universe could have a corresponding 5D UW.

it’s literally the most irrelevant point that could be brought up.

It could be true, if it had evidence to prove that the cancer constellation transcends a Tier 2 construct since it is the entrance of underworld, lol

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

It is meant to be, because this breaks the idea of 5D even further. But since you can't see strinkings points of the lore I will answer Hasty one last time and stop following the thread.

Me? Of course I know that there's a version of the gods and realms in each universe.

I'm just saying I don't think it's a relevant enough point either way to really have an extended discussion over, especially when the only argument for souls being 5-D by ascending to the Underworld is refuted by the literal Wiki's FAQ itself.

 

[Alonik]

The OP has asked us to stop and continuing would be derailment.

anything you want to answer to me can be done on my wall without derailing this thread.

derailment would be if I were talking about something that has nothing to do with the underworld, which is the plane to which the dead ascend in this thread.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Well, that's just one part of the OP. The bulk of it is about the collective consciousness type mental plane that Sisyphos/Asmita/Illias elevate their consciousness to reach together, and why it isn't anything 5-D. As long as we know that the one argument for the Underworld here (souls "Ascend" to the Underworld so 5-D) holds no merit here by default, then that's that.

 

[Hasty12345]

derailment would be if I were talking about something that has nothing to do with the underworld, which is the plane to which the dead ascend in this thread.

Derailment is talking about something that has no relevance to the argument in the OP or in the CRT it was first accepted in after being told it’s not relevant by the OP.