Undertale: The Genocide Route CRT

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, I should stop spamming CRTs for this verse...

That wasn't Frisk in the Genocide Route

Basically that wasn't really Frisk in Genocide, but Chara.

• In the Genocide Route, when Frisk looks at their reflection, it says "It's me, Chara", unlike in the other routes where it just recognizes it as Frisk.
• Flowey recognized the child as Chara since the start, unlike in the other routes (yeah I know he did as Asriel, but the convinction wasn't as strong as in the other routes)
• Chara makes in the Genocide route multiple comments which are more like personal comments rather than simple description, like Chara noticing how Asgore has still an old sweater, them having already read a note or the popular "NO CHOCOLATE" quote. If we compare them with the Pacifist, we notice that there are more non-personal descriptions instead, like it simply saying what is in the drawer, the note being actually read and it simply saying what the fridge has inside.
• Other list of evidences of Chara taking control.

It's pretty clear that's not Frisk who is in control in Genocide but Chara, and because of this I made a sandbox with a new Chara profile with the key of them possessing Frisk. Also I changed the "Demon" name to Absolute, as Chara said to have reached the Absolute after getting Determination from the Player, and it fits more than Demon which seems more a metaphor if anything.

This also removes every single thing about Frisk that was done in the Genocide, meaning that some justifications like Sans or Glad Dummy have to change.

(Btw the link for monsters' weakness to murder intent on Frisk and Flowey profile is dead, this is a new one).

"But why 7-C?" you may ask. Well, let's see now.

90 ATK and above upgrade

Let's see again what is Mettaton NEO and his context.

• He was originally planned to be a Human Eradication Robot
• His body was created from Alphys after that he met her

As Alphys made experiments with the Human SOULs and the DT within them, she should be aware of how strong their are in their full power. Because of this, I'd like to propose this for Mettaton NEO's wording.

At least Building level+, possibly Town level (Mettaton NEO, despite never attacking, has an immense attack value of 90, making him far stronger than both Asgore and Toriel. As he was originally built from Alphys to be a Human Eradication Robot, with her making researches and experiments on the Human SOULs and the Determination that gives them power, it's possible that Mettaton NEO may actually overpower even strong humans, whose power can match all of the Underground's population at their peak Determination)

Undyne the Undying obviosuly upscales due to her having 99 ATK. An AP rating can be the following:

At least Building level+, possibly Town level (Unlike the other monsters, who melt after getting their bodies injected with Determination due to their inability to sustain it, she's managed to control said Determination, getting new power from it and reaching an enourmous attack value of 99, making her the strongest monsters that is possible to encounter in the Genocide Route, surpassing even Mettaton NEO, as well as the only character who can give to Chara a fight in said Route outside of Sans)

Edit: I genuinely forgot about base MTT's DEF of 255 and he's stated multiple times to be invulnerable with Frisk being completely unable to hurt him, so he'd get this upgrade too in durability.

Frisk gets a speed downgrade

This is not attacking any rating, but more a scaling on their profile.

even higher with Immense Determination (Could keep up with Photoshop Flowey's rain of attacks)

Issue though it's that Flowey's justification is:

At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely higher (Kept up with a Frisk who defeated Asgore and could repeatedly blitz Frisk when not holding back at the end of their fight)

This is literally just circular scaling. Frisk was literally blitzed multiple times from a non-serious Flowey and unlike in the Asriel fight, they have 0 reasons to get a speed increase against Flowey. Yeet that "even higher" and we're good.

Lifting Strength downgrade (not anymore lol)

Alright the Class 25 is bad because it doesn't take count of the friction, as Papyrus didn't lift the bones but just pushed them on the ground. I made a recalc and it's only Class 10 when accounting for it. Meaning that every Class 25 will change to Class 10.

Edit: MTT EX has a legit Class 25 feat (14102.251 kg), and the ones who'd scale are Undyne (both forms), Asgore, Toriel, MTT NEO and Papyrus (he downscales from her and Undyne finds lifting one of the things she values the most in physicals).

Sans would still get Class 25 through TK due to his gravity magic being far superior to Papyrus' for obvious reasons.

Photoshop Flowey will get a Class 100 due to him overpowering at once Asgore, Papyrus, Toriel and Undyne (which multiplies said Class 25 x 4, so we get 56409.004 Kg), with Asriel obviosuly upscaling.

TLDR

• Chara gets a new key for when they possess Frisk in Genocide
• Undyne the Undying, Mettaton NEO and Chara in their new key get a "possibly 7-C"
• Frisk gets a minor clean up in their speed.
• Class 25 justifications change
• Edit 1: MTT Box' defense gets "8-C+, possibly 7-C"
• Edit 2: The strongest monsters get Class 25 LS still, with Photoshop Flowey/Asriel getting Class 100.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

• In the Genocide Route, when Frisk looks at their reflection, it says "It's me, Chara", unlike in the other routes where it just recognizes it as Frisk.
• Flowey recognized the child as Chara since the start, unlike in the other routes (yeah I know he did as Asriel, but the convinction wasn't as strong as in the other routes)

The guy who made this video put the name "Chara" at the beginning of the game. So obviously it was Chara speaking?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The guy who made this video put the name "Chara" at the beginning of the game. So obviously it was Chara speaking?

I just saw a youtuber br playing genocidal mode and he put his name instead of Chara. And when he used the screen, he was told "It's me, Alan"

So it's just the name chosen at the beginning.

EDIT: Link

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Never mind, I forgot that the name that is put is the name of "Chara" and not "Frisk"

Forget everything I said.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Issue it's that Chara puts pretty personal things, like them recognizing Asgore's sweater, unlike Frisk/Player, same with the Chocolate thing. The player is only a force that controls Frisk from the outside, they never put such subjective opinions on things.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Never mind, I forgot that the name that is put is the name of "Chara" and not "Frisk"

Forget everything I said.

Bruh.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Bruh.

It's been years since I played Undertale, give me a hand there.

That wasn't Frisk in the Genocide Route

I think that's okay.

90 ATK and above upgrade

I don't know, it doesn't seem very solid to me (mainly because he dies in one hit).

I guess it's okay to say he's a monster that could kill average humans, but full-strength humans at peak Determination? Not all of them get to use their all. I don't see solid evidence for this.

Besides, just because he was bred for it doesn't mean he's totally up for it.

Frisk gets a speed downgrade

Ok

Lifting Strength downgrade

I don't know anything about calculus, so... ok

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't know, it doesn't seem very solid to me (mainly because he dies in one hit).

If you check his durability, it's because of Alphys forgetting to install his defenses. This is why he dies in one it, because of his DEF being laughably low compared to his ATK.

I guess it's okay to say he's a monster that could kill average humans, but full-strength humans at peak Determination? Not all of them get to use their all. I don't see solid evidence for this.

Besides, just because he was bred for it doesn't mean he's totally up for it.

Mettaton isn't a monster but a ghost put in a robot made of metal and magic for one. Second, I'm aware it's not the most solid evidence, but given Alphys has her fair share of experience with it, I'd say a possibly rating is justified, given that we're talking about Alphys here still.

 

[ShionAH]

Wouldnt Likely be better since its simple? Agree with everything though neutral on the Class 10

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldnt Likely be better since its simple?

I think that's still a reach which is more possible. Besides every "possibly" is from a far fetched thing.

 

[Psychomaster35]

All of these should be fine, I suppose

 

[Tyranno223]

I agree with everything (well, I'm not knowledgeable on lifting tho), although you might want to note that Mettatron NEO's defence won't scale to his attack.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Disagree FRA

(There are no reason's above)
On one hand it kinda feels weird to make a separate profile for Genocide Route Chara possessing Kris
But on the other I don't really have any real thing to say against it beyond, ig Preference
So agree

 

[ShionAH]

All of these should be fine, I suppose

Why is the Class 25 calc wrong?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I agree with everything (well, I'm not knowledgeable on lifting tho), although you might want to note that Mettatron NEO's defence won't scale to his attack.

Wall level (Much less durable than his other forms as he has only 9 defense, making it lower than the monsters at Snowdin)

Is already on the profile buddy

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why is the Class 25 calc wrong?

Tell me, is easier to push or to lift an heavy object?

 

[Tyranno223]

Wall level (Much less durable than his other forms as he has only 9 defense, making it lower than the monsters at Snowdin)

Is already on the profile buddy

I meant as in the changes won't affect it.

There was already a bit of confusion above.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I agree with this, though we should probably note on their base key that monsters are less resistant to strikes imbibed with killing intent and remove the genocide key from Frisk as it would be redundant otherwise.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I agree with this, though we should probably note on their base key that monsters are less resistant to strikes imbibed with killing intent and remove the genocide key from Frisk as it would be redundant otherwise.

...Frisk hasn't a Genocide key though.

 

[CosmicWreck]

...Frisk hasn't a Genocide key though.

This:

higher with LV 20 (Frisk can also increase their power from gaining LV through killing people up to LV 20, although LOVE primarily measures violence and willingness to hurt, which is extremely effective against monsters. At LV 20 they are immensely superior to their LV 10 self, who could harm and eventually kill Undyne the Undying),

Is all Chara's stuff. Frisk lost control way before LV 10.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This:

Is all Chara's stuff. Frisk lost control way before LV 10.

Yeah I know. But is still not a key smh

 

[Deidalius]

Doesn't Frisk still have some sort of control in the Genocide route? She's not really completely possessed, she can have a genocide route but then suddenly spare a single monster and cancel the route. So I think Frisk in the genocide route should still scale to genocide route stuff.

Implying that Frisk has no control in that route kind of goes against the shitty message of Undertale. Frisk gets doomed because of her own actions. She can still control herself, she only gets completely possessed right at the end.

I won't comment on the other stuff in the CRT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Doesn't Frisk still have some sort of control in the Genocide route? She's not really completely possessed, she can have a genocide route but then suddenly spare a single monster and cancel the route. So I think Frisk in the genocide route should still scale to genocide route stuff.

Implying that Frisk has no control in that route kind of goes against the shitty message of Undertale. Frisk gets doomed because of her own actions. She can still control herself, she only gets completely possessed right at the end.

It's not Frisk doing the actions, it's the Player. Chara takes OUR soul after all.

 

[Deidalius]

It's not Frisk doing the actions, it's the Player. Chara takes OUR soul after all.

Isn't Frisk supposed to represent the player while Chara represents the level of violence, the desire for more power of the player?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Isn't Frisk supposed to represent the player

No, they're canonically different beings.

while Chara represents the level of violence, the desire for more power of the player?

That's kinda correct, but Frisk and the Player were already hinted to be different beings, with Deltarune only confirming their existence.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

On the lifting strength thing, wouldn't the box of bones in Papyrus' room which he states are the attacks used during his battle imply that he's been carrying them in hammerspace before the fight and unleashing them during it?

 

[Deidalius]

No, they're canonically different beings.

I never said otherwise. You can be someone's reflection and still be separate beings.

That's kinda correct, but Frisk and the Player were already hinted to be different beings, with Deltarune only confirming their existence.

I'd say Deltarune's case is way more different. Frisk is meant to embody the player, she's a self insert. While Kris is explicitly very different from the player and it's not supposed to be us.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I never said otherwise. You can be someone's reflection and still be separate beings.

But Frisk never was a reflection though lol. Plus, again, Chara does not take Frisk's soul, but yours. Frisk's souls is indeed a thing in soulless runs.

I'd say Deltarune's case is way more different. Frisk is meant to embody the player, she's a self insert. While Kris is explicitly very different from the player and it's not supposed to be us.

The entire Flowey speech literally makes Frisk and the Player different beings with different ways to think too. The Player is the one who wants to 100%ing the game, not Frisk.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I never said otherwise. You can be someone's reflection and still be separate beings.

I'd say Deltarune's case is way more different. Frisk is meant to embody the player, she's a self insert. While Kris is explicitly very different from the player and it's not supposed to be us.

Frisk being us contradicts the ending when Flowey tells us we have the power to reset everybody's memories.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Agree with everything

 

[Deidalius]

Fair enough, I just think that Frisk should somewhat still scale to genocide route feats. She isn't really getting boosted just by Chara but rather by murdering people.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The entire Flowey speech literally makes Frisk and the Player different beings with different ways to think too. The Player is the one who wants to 100%ing the game, not Frisk.

Frisk is more closely aligned with the Player since its the Player whom molds their personality depending on the choices they make

For comparison, Kris is very obviously not molded by the choices the Player takes

 

[StrymULTRA]

I just think that Frisk should somewhat still scale to genocide route feats. She isn't really getting boosted just by Chara but rather by murdering people.

Issue it's that Chara never got power from Frisk. LV is not really what gives the power, but the Determination, and Chara just used the Player's DT to come back to life once they got enough murdering through Frisk. After all Chara is the embodiment of the stats rising of the Player, and even calls them "partner".

Frisk is more closely aligned with the Player since its the Player that molds their personality depending on the choices they make

Again, Flowey speech.

Plus, Frisk does indeed decisions on their own, such as hiding behind the lamp, shaking their hand to Sans or telling to Asriel their true name, meaning they indeed have their own personality, just not as blatant as Kris does.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Again, Flowey speech.

I wasn't denying that they're their own person, I was only clarifying that they're still pretty closely aligned with the Player

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[Jason_Courne]

I did get Mettaton EX's big legs to Class 25 individually, it could probably be even higher when taking into account the supersonic acceleration or all 5 legs
Although I'm still not 100% sure if it's applicable for LS

 

[StrymULTRA]

I did get Mettaton EX's big legs to Class 25 individually, it could probably be even higher when taking into account the supersonic acceleration or all 5 legs
Although I'm still not 100% sure if it's applicable for LS

I'd say it's fine to apply to MTT EX/NEO, Undyne (both forms), Asgore, Toriel and Photoshop Flowey/Asriel.

Flowey should also get a "Class 10 through vines" as he could block an elevator now that I think.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I agree with the proposal as well as agreeing to the new class 25 calc.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Shouldn't Photoshop Flowey's LS get a multiplier over MTT's LS? After all he restrained Asgore, Toriel, Undyne and Papyrus at the same time.