One Piece Post Timeskip Up to Dressrosa

[Eminiteable]

That one fishmen was an officer for Hody so yes he's above fodder tier. Luffy can sense power levels so he can distinguish.

Prove that

 

[XDragnoir]

against the numbers and the ships

Numbers are fodder no matter how you look at them, they have 0 feats.

Vergo scales to Law for being able to injure him who downscales doflamingo

And why would Doffy be 7A? As Emini said, there is nothing indicating Doffy is > or = Golem Pica. 377 is for Golem Pica's potential energy anyway, so i don't think anyone will scale to it anymore.

Ok, so Katakuri's head does have feats from gear 4th, here's where he has them.

I don't get what are you trying to do, if we go by that route wouldn't base Luffy be = to G4?

 

[Eminiteable]

I was having a look at Fujitora's durability justification and realised there isn't really a justifiable explanation why his durability scales to 420 Megatons.

"Durability: Mountain level via scaling (Can block attacks from those who match him in power), can also supplement his defenses with barriers"

As far as I'm aware Fuji never used his 420 Megaton feat on anyone or took it back at him so his durability has no real reason to scale there.

From what I can tell Luffy with Gear Third was able to block (or maybe clash I can't really tell) against no-named gravity attacks but was completely Overpowered by Ferocious Tiger which was calced at 100 Megatons.

The 420 megaton feat itself was treated by Kyros and other onlookers as an incredible feat "no pirate could survive that" and Fuji refused to use it on Luffy in the end but did use Ferocious tiger, Fuji in the end treated dropping the rubble as a definitive kill against Luffy so overall I think it's being implied that 420 megaton rubble feat is stronger than anything else Fuji used on Luffy rather than assuming the 420 feat is the base level for all of Fuji's actions.

 

[unworthy]

@Damage3245 - I strongly advise that we shift the argument to "adding Haki as a separate AP tier" for all Armament users because this is clearly important given the above discussions.

Doflamingo already had blood coming out of his mouth before this, and Luffy's using Haki which wouldn't attribute to his Base AP. Also, having all the organs in your body ruptured simultaneously would clearly have an affect on one's ability to take strikes anywhere in the body. Lethargy, severe muscle spasms, body failure, etc. It's not just the torso that's rendered weakened--though it is the most tender spot, let me make that clear.

• That or it doesn't matter since this exchange is supposed to sell the point that Doflamingo is in a critical condition from the Gamma Knife (and we are reminded of that in the following chapter). Then Doflamingo takes a Haki-imbued attack from Luffy some time later and laughed it off with 0 damage. The point is that Luffy was losing his chance at defeating Doflamingo the longer the battle dragged out since Doffy was gradually regaining his strength and could easily take down Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy by the end of 783.

Point is: Before Gamma Knife (and during Chapter 783 where Doflamingo had some time to recover), Luffy's attacks were ineffective at every turn (except Red Hawk). After Gamma Knife (781 and 782), Luffy could hurt him.

It is clearly seen that it is blood that comes out of the blows.

Really being injured internally does not affect the external durability of the skin at all, if the attack cannot hurt your skin, there should be no problem, Being injured more than anything affects how much damage you can receive.

In one of those punches Luffy used Haki and Doflamingo also to cover his face with Haki, Luffy overcame Doflamingo's Haki and hurt him.

Also, Doflamingo rather than trying to block Luffy's attacks, he dodges them most of the time.

If the Red Hawk could do damage to him (Regardless of "ignoring durability" thing) the G3 + Haki is superior to any G2 attack, so it will also do damage to him (Thats why he never attempt to take a G3 blow by his own)

Luffy had no chance of winning against doflamingo with G2 and G3, because:
1- The G2 doesn't hurt him enough, Doflamingo says it, and Luffy knows that his blows hurt him (but just no enough), because he says it too.
2-The G3 is too slow for Doflamingo to eat a G3 attack, despite having enough AP to do damage to him.

That's why he need the G4, because they have at least or more the power of the G3 and the speed of the G2.

 

[unworthy]

Numbers are fodder no matter how you look at them, they have 0 feats.


And why would Doffy be 7A? As Emini said, there is nothing indicating Doffy is > or = Golem Pica. 377 is for Golem Pica's potential energy anyway, so i don't think anyone will scale to it anymore.


I don't get what are you trying to do, if we go by that route wouldn't base Luffy be = to G4?

Numbers scales to Oars feats.

 

[KingTempest]

That would depend on the evidence for it, and the cosnsitency for it.

Not that difficult to explain.

Evidence: Base Luffy matched Blueno and Gear Second Luffy matched Amped Zoan Lucci who's 5x stronger.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-379-page-6.html

Counter: Powerscaling page says

Please note that when dealing with numerical statistics, it shouldn't be assumed that they are linear (Such as a character rated 1000 not necessarily being 20 times stronger when compared to a character rated 50) and instead it should be assumed that they are simply meant to show which character is stronger.

Linear:

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-418-page-12.html

Consistency w/ being 5x or around 5x.
Luffy in base couldn't hurt Hody (on land or under water) but Gear Second could hurt him.
Underwater halves a humans AP and doubles a Fishmen's AP.
So Luffy would need to be at least 4x stronger & faster just to do the same amount of damage he did prior.

Luffy did much more damage while being underwater (so Hody's at 2x strength and Luffy's at 1/2 strength, plus he's a devil fruit user which makes every attack even weaker)

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-641-page-8.html

Basically, in Enies Lobby Luffy matched someone 5x stronger, and in Fishmen Island, Luffy would need to get around 5x stronger to deal damage under water, which he did.

 

[KingTempest]

Numbers scales to Oars feats.

No they don't

 

[Damage3245]

What makes you say Luffy in base couldn't hurt Hody Jones? He did so on a few occasions like his kick to Hody Jones' face, the snakeshot, his kick to Hody Jones back and his punch to Hody Jones that sent him flying into the wall.

But anyway, I don't think that's enough to apply a universal 5x AP multiplier to Gear 2 Luffy. Especially since it is a multiplier we'd have to infer rather than it being outright stated.

 

[KingTempest]

What makes you say Luffy in base couldn't hurt Hody Jones? He did so on a few occasions like his kick to Hody Jones' face, the snakeshot, his kick to Hody Jones back and his punch to Hody Jones that sent him flying into the wall.

Every single time, Hody came back and Luffy said "he's tough", and on some instances, "I even used Armament Haki".

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-637-page-8.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-637-page-18.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-641-page-18.html

 

[KingTempest]

Maybe we can use this for G2 speed multiplier? https://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/one_piece/one_piece_388/one_piece_388_8.jpg

Are you referring to the "kick the ground 10x" statement?

 

[unworthy]

No they don't

Why not?, Luffy literally states it

 

[KingTempest]

Why not?, Luffy literally states it

He says they're the same size.
Size ≠ AP

 

[Voltairee]

Are you referring to the "kick the ground 10x" statement?

Yeah.

 

[unworthy]

He says they're the same size.
Size ≠ AP

???
He does not say that.

He practically says that if they hadn't trained for 2 years, it would take the entire Mugiswaras gang just to beat 1 Number, making reference to his fights with Oars where it took the entire gang to beat him.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah.

We would have to prove amount of kicks 1:1 with speed.

???
He does not say that.

He practically says that if they hadn't trained for 2 years, it would take the entire Mugiswaras gang just to beat 1 Number, making reference to his fights with Oars where it took the entire gang to beat him.

He said both. I guess it could work

 

[unworthy]

We would have to prove amount of kicks 1:1 with speed.

He said both. I guess it could work

He just talking about 1, the one he has in front of him.

This also could mean that G4>Luffy With Shadows.

 

[Eminiteable]

This also could mean that G4>Luffy With Shadows.

That's already applied on the current profiles.

 

[unworthy]

That's already applied on the current profiles.

Well with no reason at all.

Anyway, Oars is more stronger than you all think, I had a post for that too.

 

[KingTempest]

I was having a look at Fujitora's durability justification and realised there isn't really a justifiable explanation why his durability scales to 420 Megatons.

"Durability: Mountain level via scaling (Can block attacks from those who match him in power), can also supplement his defenses with barriers"

As far as I'm aware Fuji never used his 420 Megaton feat on anyone or took it back at him so his durability has no real reason to scale there.

From what I can tell Luffy with Gear Third was able to block (or maybe clash I can't really tell) against no-named gravity attacks but was completely Overpowered by Ferocious Tiger which was calced at 100 Megatons.

The 420 megaton feat itself was treated by Kyros and other onlookers as an incredible feat "no pirate could survive that" and Fuji refused to use it on Luffy in the end but did use Ferocious tiger, Fuji in the end treated dropping the rubble as a definitive kill against Luffy so overall I think it's being implied that 420 megaton rubble feat is stronger than anything else Fuji used on Luffy rather than assuming the 420 feat is the base level for all of Fuji's actions.

I agree with this to an extent.
The current reasoning for his AP is (Performed a feat of this level very casually).
The reason we scale it to his other attacks is because he puts effort in his attacks, while he is casual with this feat.

So you're mainly right, but it's on a perspective on how much effort he puts into his attacks.

 

[XDragnoir]

Well with no reason at all.

Wtf? Dark Luffy has L7B feats scaling from Oars, G4 has H7A feats via multipliers, how that is "no reason at all"?

 

[unworthy]

Wtf? Dark Luffy has L7B feats scaling from Oars, G4 has H7A feats via multipliers, how that is "no reason at all"?

I mean there is no reason in the manga (other than the one I mentioned) that G4 Luffy Scales to Shadow Luffy.

If Luffy G4 is better via multipliers than Shadow Luffy, it's already a different case.

 

[Eminiteable]

I agree with this to an extent.
The current reasoning for his AP is (Performed a feat of this level very casually).
The reason we scale it to his other attacks is because he puts effort in his attacks, while he is casual with this feat.

So you're mainly right, but it's on a perspective on how much effort he puts into his attacks.

I'm not really seeing how he was more casual when lifting the rubble than when he was fighting Luffy, sure he moved around a lot more but that is to be expected when in combat vs lifting something while being stationary.

He does sweat in the luffy fight but this is due to what Luffy said to Fuji rather than Fuji himself sweating due to physical exhaustion.

 

[KingTempest]

But anyway, I don't think that's enough to apply a universal 5x AP multiplier to Gear 2 Luffy. Especially since it is a multiplier we'd have to infer rather than it being outright stated.

In all honesty, it's a weak application of Occam's Razor.
One instance he's 5x stronger, 2 years later he uses the same technique and is 5x stronger.

I would understand if it's only the first instance (which wouldn't be enough by the Wiki's standards), but it's a consistent 5x boost.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm not really seeing how he was more casual when lifting the rubble than when he was fighting Luffy, sure he moved around a lot more but that is to be expected when in combat vs lifting something while being stationary.

He does sweat in the luffy fight but this is due to what Luffy said to Fuji rather than Fuji himself sweating due to physical exhaustion.

Doflamingo also said that Fujitora doesn't hold back, so ehhhhhhhh

 

[Eminiteable]

Doflamingo also said that Fujitora doesn't hold back, so ehhhhhhhh

Could I get the chapter number that he says that?

 

[KingTempest]

Could I get the chapter number that he says that?

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-717-page-16.html

 

[Damage3245]

In all honesty, it's a weak application of Occam's Razor.
One instance he's 5x stronger, 2 years later he uses the same technique and is 5x stronger.

I would understand if it's only the first instance (which wouldn't be enough by the Wiki's standards), but it's a consistent 5x boost.

I wouldn't consider the Post-Timeskip example you gave to be a viable 5x boost.

 

[KingTempest]

I wouldn't consider the Post-Timeskip example you gave to be a viable 5x boost.

Could I ask how come?

It would be at least 4, since he was at half strength and Hody was doubled. He's a DF user, which means it's even harder for him to land hits underwater.

He noticeably did more damage with a regular nonamed no charged up punch (he sent him flying and Hody's teeth ripped out of his mouth because of it) than he did in base on land and underwater.

5x would honestly be the minimum it could be.

 

[Eminiteable]

Regarding Doflamingo's statement I don't think he has the knowledge/ability to know if Fuji is holding back (especially since Fuji seems to be using a meteor which he doesn't scale to)

I think what he means by it is Fuji isn't hesitating not that Fuji's not holding back his power level to a certain degree.

 

[Damage3245]

It would be at least 4, since he was at half strength and Hody was doubled. He's a DF user, which means it's even harder for him to land hits underwater.

I don't think it's fair to say his strength was actually halved. He was not totally underwater since he had the air bubble around him, and his movements just being slowed by being underwater should not be affecting him to a serious degree.

Plus there isn't anything saying that Fishmen actually get twice as durable underwater.

 

[XDragnoir]

Damage, do we accept Nanatsu no Taizai multipliers in the wiki?

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, do we accept Nanatsu no Taizai multipliers in the wiki?

Not for the power levels.

 

[XDragnoir]

Then i really don't know why the multipliers that aren't G4 (and maybe doriki) should be accepted, and just like Ashura, G2 wasn't stated so it would break a rule for multipliers.

Talking about G4, i think we should stop applying the 3x to it's dura (unless tensile force can be used for durability, idk anything about that).

 

[unworthy]

Then i really don't know why the multipliers that aren't G4 (and maybe doriki) should be accepted, and just like Ashura, G2 wasn't stated so it would break a rule for multipliers.

Talking about G4, i think we should stop applying the 3x to it's dura (unless tensile force can be used for durability, idk anything about that).

Lucci said he is 5 times stronger than Fukuro.

Fukuro and Blueno (Luffy Base Level) are basically in the same tier.

Why that cant be applied as G2 multiplier? Since is a direct Statement/Multiplier from Lucci?

the X3 G4 multiplier is not even on the Viz translation, it says "Several times beyond its limits"

 

[Damage3245]

the X3 G4 multiplier is not even on the Viz translation, it says "Several times beyond its limits"

"Several" is lowballed to "x3".

 

[unworthy]

"Several" is lowballed to "x3".

I think the fact of saying "Beyond its limits" is being ignored, if the limit is the 5x of the G2, (Since we do not know or at least I find no multiplier of the G3) the G4 should be at least x8, because if it were x6 or x7, I would say one or twice respectively "beyond its Limit"

Of course, all of this if you accept the x5 of the G2, but if you dont the 3x is fine i guess.

 

[Damage3245]

I think the fact of saying "Beyond its limits" is being ignored, if the limit is the 5x of the G2, (Since we do not know or at least I find no multiplier of the G3) the G4 should be at least x8, because if it were x6 or x7, I would say one or twice respectively "beyond its Limit"

Of course, all of this if you accept the x5 of the G2, but if you dont the 3x is fine i guess.

I don't think we're going to use the 5x for Gear 2.

 

[RexofLM]

gonna throw a thought out. Rayleigh outright states that Haki blooms in intense situations or difficult battles (Not sure the precise translation) but the implication is as you fight your haki grows thus you get stronger. we've seen evidence of this theory pre timeskip. Blackbeard comments on luffys haki back in impel down if I recall correctly. and luffy does tend to grow stronger between arcs or even during them (Getting stomped by Lucci to being somewhat comparable in base. Needing buggy and Mr 2. help to beat minotaurus to one shotting him later with Jet pistol.) Could it not be possible that that the Luffy that fought doflamingo is a bit weaker than the luffy that fought katakuri? im not sure if the concept is applicable without hard numbers but it would justify luffy punching 7A's in base and damaging them post dressrosa

 

[unworthy]

gonna throw a thought out. Rayleigh outright states that Haki blooms in intense situations or difficult battles (Not sure the precise translation) but the implication is as you fight your haki grows thus you get stronger. we've seen evidence of this theory pre timeskip. Blackbeard comments on luffys haki back in impel down if I recall correctly. and luffy does tend to grow stronger between arcs or even during them (Getting stomped by Lucci to being somewhat comparable in base. Needing buggy and Mr 2. help to beat minotaurus to one shotting him later with Jet pistol.) Could it not be possible that that the Luffy that fought doflamingo is a bit weaker than the luffy that fought katakuri? im not sure if the concept is applicable without hard numbers but it would justify luffy punching 7A's in base and damaging them post dressrosa

He is weaker.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Could it not be possible that that the Luffy that fought doflamingo is a bit weaker than the luffy that fought katakuri

Yes. Personally I think Gear 3 Luffy should get baseline 7-A+ after Cracker since they did fight for a long time and he was able to drag Katakuri into the mirror dimension prior to their fight.