One Piece Post Timeskip Up to Dressrosa

[CyborgSakumo]

He steamrolls Caesar because he used gear third.
Not using your strongest moves ≠ not fighting serious

Even prior to using gear 3rd he was steamrolling him he literally had him begging for his life. He only used gear 3rd when he used Shirokuni form.

A more tired Gear 3rd Luffy matched Katakuri's elephant gun temporarily before being overpowered, he definitely got stronger.

That was after Luffy injured Katakuri the first time.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-883-page-14.html

For the gear 2nd attack he moves back with the attack to deal with it, and he's capable of injuring doflamingo again shortly before this,(there's no blood because it hits his arms but he's clearly grimacing.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-783-page-5.html

 

[KingTempest]

Even prior to using gear 3rd he was steamrolling him he literally had him begging for his life. He only used gear 3rd when he used Shirokuni form.

True, doesn't mean he wasn't trying.
Zoro's statement was an assumption on why he lost. He punched him around in base. Luffy losing cause of Lack of Oxygen is pitiful in zoro's eyes.

That was after Luffy injured Katakuri the first time.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-883-page-14.html

That was actually after Katakuri took a break while Luffy ran away to recharge his Haki.

For the gear 2nd attack he moves back with the attack to deal with it, and he's capable of injuring doflamingo again shortly before this,(there's no blood because it hits his arms but he's clearly grimacing.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-783-page-5.html

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Zoro's assumption is proven true again in the Dressrosa arc where he spars with Ideo even though he's capable of easily brushing away Sai who was sparring with him, there are numerous points where Luffy clearly isn't serious up to Dressrosa.

Luffy didn't run away to charge his Haki at that point that was when Katakuri was doing his Merienda, and directly before that Katakuri is capable of harming luffy so I don't see why that feat isn't valid.

Luffy runs away after the first gear 4th usage, the only thing he does before is run to lose weight because it's one piece.

The picture you showed shows him jumping back, and btw Doflamingo also acknowledges as Luffy being similarly injured due to his fight with Bellamy.

 

[unworthy]

Luffy's blows in G2 do not have "weight" in doflamingo, because as I explained, the damage he does is minimal, but luffy in G2 can hurt doflamingo, even if it is little.

You only have to compare a hit from Luffy in G2, that hurts Doffy, even if it is little, while Doflamingo literally no-sells a cannon ball in the face, without any damage.

In damage (AP)
G4>>>G3>>G2>Base.

But, Base luffy or G2 is enough to surpass Doffys durability, Because he is not capable of non-selling Luffy's punchs with haki, which makes sense because Luffy Base and Doflamingo in strength are comparable (He stopped a kick from doflamingo), what makes Doffy better is that he was faster, and had better fruit, etc.

 

[XDragnoir]

So Doffy will not downscale from G4 anymore? He will instead downscale from G2? Mehhhhh

 

[KingTempest]

If he downscales from G2 he'll be weaker than his executives

 

[unworthy]

So Doffy will not downscale from G4 anymore? He will instead downscale from G2? Mehhhhh

I think he scales, because despite everything, Doflamingo tanked several blows from the G4.

I think it would be better to divide Doflamingo's durability in a certain way as Minimum-G2 / Base and Maximum-G4?

 

[CinCameron20]

I'm gonna have to interject:

Why is Luffy being downgraded and not scaled for hurting Sanji in base?

• (Also, i glanced above--why tf are you guys talking about scaling Tashigi to Zoro...?)

Also Luffy never hurt Doflamingo in base until after the latter had already suffered life-ending injury from Gamma Knife, which is frequently reminded to the viewer as "affecting him" to the point where it seemed like Luffy (without us having knowledge of G4) had a proper chance of winning when he didn't have one at the start.

• (Also, Luffy only hurt Doflamingo with attacks imbued with Haki, which does not affect his base power)

Like-wise, Luffy only struck Katakuri once in base before he started getting strong and--again--he was using Haki when he landed the blow, which would not attribute to his base power.


Doflamingo did battle against Gear 4th in a severely weakened state for over 20 minutes and was determined by Luffy himself as being too tough to take down with his "Kong Gun" and comparable attacks, as they did not significantly affect Doflamingo--who was only momentarily stunned by Leo Bazooka which, guess what, hit him in his most vulnerable point at the time. Yet that was still not enough to defeat him, and Luffy resorts to a more powerful attack via King Kong Gun.

 

[KingTempest]

Why is Luffy being downgraded and not scaled for hurting Sanji in base?

Would count as PIS and inconsistency.
Gear Second Luffy with Haki could barely break through Monet's barrier that Zoro could casually cut through, but Luffy in Base without Haki while exhausted could "hurt" a perfect health Sanji who matched Vergo, Monet's superior...
Luffy needed Gear Second to do lasting damage to Wadatsumi, who Sanji manhandled.
Sanji took a hit from Gear Second Luffy and Jinbe... but base hungry Luffy can draw blood from Sanji?
Nahhhhhhhhhhhh

• (Also, i glanced above--why tf are you guys talking about scaling Tashigi to Zoro...?)

I was desperate it was for scaling to a casual Zoro

 

[unworthy]

Let's see, Luffy hurt doffy with the Red hawk, with the G2, and with Haki.

In Base, he did it with Haki, so should it scale to Base luffy with haki?

He definitely did it with the Red Hawk (Which already has Haki) And with G2 with a stamp.

You can ignore the blows to the abdominal area because as you say, Doflamingo was injured in that area, but how do you explain that luffy hurt him with two blows to the face, when he was totally healthy in that area?

 

[KingTempest]

I'm starting to hate scaling to people getting hit in their faces

 

[KingTempest]

Let's see, Luffy hurt doffy with the Red hawk, with the G2, and with Haki.

In Base, he did it with Haki, so should it scale to Base luffy with haki?

He definitely did it with the Red Hawk (Which already has Haki) And with G2 with a stamp.

You can ignore the blows to the abdominal area because as you say, Doflamingo was injured in that area, but how do you explain that luffy hurt him with two blows to the face, when he was totally healthy in that area?

Red hawk defies dura, everywhere else he punched him in his head

 

[unworthy]

Red hawk defies dura, everywhere else he punched him in his head

I didn't understand you much, are you trying to say that the Red Hawk ignores durability? the other thing...i directly dont understand you.

 

[KingTempest]

I didn't understand you much, are you trying to say that the Red Hawk ignores durability? the other thing...i directly dont understand you.

Defies dura = Ignores durability (a habit of mine).

For some reason, in OP, people bleed every time they get hit in the head.
Doflamingo can block Luffy's punch but bleeds when he gets hit in his face, same w/ Kata

 

[unworthy]

Defies dura = Ignores durability (a habit of mine).

For some reason, in OP, people bleed every time they get hit in the head.
Doflamingo can block Luffy's punch but bleeds when he gets hit in his face, same w/ Kata

I think that fire ignores durability but not the hit.

Not always, you have Kaido for example who does not bleed.

Plus there is the fact that Luffy surpassed his Haki, if his haki wasn't better or comparable, it wouldn't have hurt him either.

Let's see, neither do I see them bleed from a blow to the abdomen unless it is something that far exceeds their durability.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Why is Luffy being downgraded and not scaled for hurting Sanji in base?

To be honest that scene is littered with variables and the more variables you have the less reliable you are.

1. Luffy was destroyed by Sanji
2. Luffy was weary from Cracker
3. Neither really wanted to kill the other cause friends
4. None of this cross cancels out

I do think Luffy is 7-A going back to paramount war. I just think that rationale w/t Sanji is bogus af.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Ok here are all of Base luffy's feats against 7-A characters


A near fatally injured Luffy harms a similarly injured Katakuri who later fights against gear 4th luffy.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-894-page-8.html

An injured luffy harms a fresh Katakuri who later takes multiple hits from gear 4th luffy.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-883-page-14.html

An injured base Luffy clashes with post gamma knife Doflamingo equally who later is capable of taking multiple hits from boundman.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-783-page-13.html

An injured base luffy manhandles a weakened Doflamingo who was capable of overpowering base luffy's durability with athlete foot.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-782-page-7.html

An injured base Luffy clashes with doflamingo directly after gamma knife who again was capable of overpowering base luffy's durability.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-782-page-3.html

An injured Luffy easily harms sanji without haki.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-856-page-14.html

That is 6 feats against 3 separate 7-A characters, two of which are 7-A+ this shouldn't be debatable.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Would count as PIS and inconsistency.
Gear Second Luffy with Haki could barely break through Monet's barrier that Zoro could casually cut through, but Luffy in Base without Haki while exhausted could "hurt" a perfect health Sanji who matched Vergo, Monet's superior...
Luffy needed Gear Second to do lasting damage to Wadatsumi, who Sanji manhandled.
Sanji took a hit from Gear Second Luffy and Jinbe... but base hungry Luffy can draw blood from Sanji?
Nahhhhhhhhhhhh

I was desperate it was for scaling to a casual Zoro

The barrier luffy broke through was different than the one zoro cut through, why are we using that to scale. That was a barrier created from wrapping multiple layers vs the casual one she used on Zoro. Stop trying to overhype zoro.

also again Luffy pre Dresrosa was very clearly not serious in his fights.

Luffy's use of gear second post timeskip is very clearly just for speed buffs, he doesn't use it for AP buffs as seen when he used gear 2nd on literal fodder tier opponents, luffy doesn't use gear 2nd in any instance post-ts for anything more than just a speed buff.

The definition of PIS would mean if it was an isolated incident and that just isn't true. Luffy is very capable of harming 7-A tier opponents in base.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

To be honest that scene is littered with variables and the more variables you have the less reliable you are.

1. Luffy was destroyed by Sanji
2. Luffy was weary from Cracker
3. Neither really wanted to kill the other cause friends
4. None of this cross cancels out

I do think Luffy is 7-A going back to paramount war. I just think that rationale w/t Sanji is bogus af.

1.Luffy literally said he wasn't going to fight sanji, and literally just stood there for a barrage of Sanji's strongest techniques after finishing a fight with Cracker and was still capable of fighting an army after this.

2. Yes

3. Sanji wanted to put luffy down, and very clearly was using his strongest techniques against luffy. The opposite was not true.

 

[KingTempest]

The barrier luffy broke through was different than the one zoro cut through, why are we using that to scale

It was the same exact thing, just bigger.

also again Luffy pre Dresrosa was very clearly not serious in his fights.

So Luffy wasn't trying at all under water while dying against Hody for his friend's sake and for his brother's leader's territory just because of plot.
Ok.

Luffy's use of gear second post timeskip is very clearly just for speed buffs, he doesn't use it for AP buffs as seen when he used gear 2nd on literal fodder tier opponents,

Idk, maybe they're not fodder.

luffy doesn't use gear 2nd in any instance post-ts for anything more than just a speed buff.

Red Hawk, where he went regular human speed just to punch someone in their stomach

The definition of PIS would mean if it was an isolated incident and that just isn't true. Luffy is very capable of harming 7-A tier opponents in base.

PIS ≠ isolated incident, that's an outlier. Luffy one shotting Sanji and making him bleed is basically saying all of the Corrida Officers are stronger than Sanji, since they all scale to Chinjao who matched Gear 2nd, and Chief Officer Vergo (who could hang w/ Law, who could fight Doflamingo) is fodder compared to the power of base Luffy, who you're scaling to a Doflamingo with bruised insides

 

[CyborgSakumo]

It was the same exact thing, just bigger.

Monet specifically gives the move another name "Kamakura", and explicitly states the wall is special it's clearly different,luffy breaks through the hardened snow ground in haki later proving this further.


Luffy manhandled Hody that entire fight he didn't need to fight serious, he only started fighting for real when Hody just kept piling up steroids.

You literally couldn't figure out a way to justify him using it on fodder ok.

Red Hawk is clearly a different technique that ignores durability and gives him an AP buff via fire, in any other attack he doesn't use it for an AP buff.

That doflamingo with bruised insides took hits from Gear 4th and that luffy just got finished getting the shit beaten out of him by Bellamy, and base luffy injured a fresh Katakuri.

As I said before gear 2nd Post-Ts has not shown any notable AP improvement with the exception of Red Hawk which ignores durability. Yes, Chinjao scaling to sanji and the other officers isn't a plot issue.

 

[XDragnoir]

as seen when he used gear 2nd on literal fodder tier opponents

Implying he never used G3 and G4 in fodders, granted he never used them in fodder before Wano.

Anyway, why is punching Sanji a 7A feat? He isn't 7A because Vergo isn't going to scale to Golem Pica anymore.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

Implying he never used G3 and G4 in fodders, granted he never used them in fodder before Wano.

Anyway, why is punching Sanji a 7A feat? He isn't 7A because Vergo isn't going to scale to Golem Pica anymore.

G3 has only been used on fodder tier once in Wano post-training(that really weird scene where he flattened that dude's head which was very clearly meant to be a comedy skit playing on the fact Luffy got really angry because of Oshiroku), Gear 4th hasn't been used on fodder tiers . It's been used in training montages and as a big attack against the numbers and the ships, but not fodder tier.

Vergo scales to Law for being able to injure him who downscales doflamingo

 

[Eminiteable]

As I said before gear 2nd Post-Ts has not shown any notable AP improvement with the exception of Red Hawk which ignores durability. Yes, Chinjao scaling to sanji and the other officers isn't a plot issue.

So you're arguing we should remove Luffy's Post-timeskip AP boost in gear second?

 

[CyborgSakumo]

So you're arguing we should remove Luffy's Post-timeskip AP boost in gear second?

Essentially yeah at most it should get a higher but by an undetermined amount. Red hawk is an exception to this.

 

[Eminiteable]

Essentially yeah at most it should get a higher but by an undetermined amount. Red hawk is an exception to this.

It already is treated that way pretty much.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

It already is treated that way pretty much.

It's not though, otherwise, this argument about him being low 7-B+ wouldn't have to have been brought up.

Essentially I see this as

7-A ,higher with gear 2nd 7-A+ with gear 3rd High 7-A with gear 4th.

 

[KingTempest]

Monet specifically gives the move another name "Kamakura", and explicitly states the wall is special it's clearly different,luffy breaks through the hardened snow ground in haki later proving this further.

At this point you need to pull up scans of her saying it's special. She says the average pirate couldn't break it, and the average pirate is shit. That's saying Kuro couldn't break it. Are we saying since Kuro couldn't break it, it's special?
Nami and Robin could break her regular snow but started bitching when Yuki Gaki was brought out.
It's the same thing, just different shapes.

Luffy manhandled Hody that entire fight he didn't need to fight serious, he only started fighting for real when Hody just kept piling up steroids.

You're mistaking fight serious with fight at full power. Luffy actually started fighting serious when he was under water and when he got half as weak and Hody got twice as strong.

You literally couldn't figure out a way to justify him using it on fodder ok.

He used Jet pistol on 3 fishmen. One fishman blocked it and tagged Luffy, and Luffy said he was strong because of it.

Red Hawk is clearly a different technique that ignores durability and gives him an AP buff via fire, in any other attack he doesn't use it for an AP buff.

Please look at Hawk Rifle.
You know the kinetic energy formula? A boost in speed will always be a boost in striking strength, which is AP.

That doflamingo with bruised insides took hits from Gear 4th

You mean the Doflamingo that healed his insides with string?

and that luffy just got finished getting the shit beaten out of him by Bellamy,

Did you just compare getting your organs electrocuted with getting punched by a string
You mean the Luffy that one shot him and got out the fight with not a single cut?

and base luffy injured a fresh Katakuri.

Kicked him in his face.
Hitting people in their head in one piece isn't scaleable unless their head has dura feats

For some reason, in OP, people bleed every time they get hit in the head.
Doflamingo can block Luffy's punch but bleeds when he gets hit in his face, same w/ Kata

As I said before gear 2nd Post-Ts has not shown any notable AP improvement with the exception of Red Hawk which ignores durability.

One shots Pacifista.
Takes down Wadatsumi
One shots Vander Decken IX
Makes Chinjao cough out blood

Yes, Chinjao scaling to sanji and the other officers isn't a plot issue.

Ok.
Vergo is a chief officer.
Chief Officer Vergo < Pica, Diamante, and Trebol's units individually, since this is the scaling chain.
Every individual officer ~ Every individual gladiator ~ Chinjao ~ Gear Second Luffy with Haki > Base Luffy with Haki > Base Luffy with no Haki > Sanji ≥ Chief Officer Vergo.

 

[CyborgSakumo]

At this point you need to pull up scans of her saying it's special. She says the average pirate couldn't break it, and the average pirate is shit. That's saying Kuro couldn't break it. Are we saying since Kuro couldn't break it, it's special?
Nami and Robin could break her regular snow but started bitching when Yuki Gaki was brought out.
It's the same thing, just different shapes.

You're mistaking fight serious with fight at full power. Luffy actually started fighting serious when he was under water and when he got half as weak and Hody got twice as strong.

He used Jet pistol on 3 fishmen. One fishman blocked it and tagged Luffy, and Luffy said he was strong because of it.

Please look at Hawk Rifle.
You know the kinetic energy formula? A boost in speed will always be a boost in striking strength, which is AP.

You mean the Doflamingo that healed his insides with string?

Did you just compare getting your organs electrocuted with getting punched by a string
You mean the Luffy that one shot him and got out the fight with not a single cut?

Kicked him in his face.
Hitting people in their head in one piece isn't scaleable unless their head has dura feats



One shots Pacifista.
Takes down Wadatsumi
One shots Vander Decken IX
Makes Chinjao cough out blood

Ok.
Vergo is a chief officer.
Chief Officer Vergo < Pica, Diamante, and Trebol's units individually, since this is the scaling chain.
Every individual officer ~ Every individual gladiator ~ Chinjao ~ Gear Second Luffy with Haki > Base Luffy with Haki > Base Luffy with no Haki > Sanji ≥ Chief Officer Vergo.

It's not because she makes no notice of Zoro breaking her wall, but makes a notice of Luffy doing that. The evidence with other feats supports this argument.

Zoro directly called out Luffy for not being serious and this is further brought up with the way he fought at the coliseum against Ideo even though we directly see him being comparable to Chinjao who could casually brush away ideo.

That one fishmen was an officer for Hody so yes he's above fodder tier. Luffy can sense power levels so he can distinguish.

Please don't attempt to use physics to justify this, this is One piece where Oda clearly couldn't care much about that and regardless its an increase in movement/combat speed not attack speed so that argument doesn't even hold water .

Chinjao is shown to be equal to base Luffy, and Hawk rifle is the only attack we see luffy land on Chinjao on screen.

That doflamingo healed his insides with string as soon as he got up from the gamma knife, when is it noted he's actively healing in between that, we only see him healing more after he uses gear 4th.

Doflamingo has an ability specifically meant to heal that damage so yes I'm comparing it. Luffy is physically shown injured and Doflamino even comments on it.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-783-page-9.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-779-page-16.html

Ok, so Katakuri's head does have feats from gear 4th, here's where he has them.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-895-page-3.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-884-page-4.html

Since none of those characters have AP feats vs base luffy those arguments are irrelevant in each instance luffy just uses it to blitz his opponent.

Also, as an aside the head thing being significantly weaker than the body in One piece is completely unfounded, that is literally something people just attempted to invent just so Luffy wouldn't be 7-A.

 

[KingTempest]

It's not because she makes no notice of Zoro breaking her wall, but makes a notice of Luffy doing that. The evidence with other feats supports this argument.

Zoro directly called out Luffy for not being serious and this is further brought up with the way he fought at the coliseum against Ideo even though we directly see him being comparable to Chinjao who could casually brush away ideo.

That one fishmen was an officer for Hody so yes he's above fodder tier. Luffy can sense power levels so he can distinguish.

Please don't attempt to use physics to justify this, this is One piece where Oda clearly couldn't care much about that and regardless its an increase in movement/combat speed not attack speed so that argument doesn't even hold water .

Chinjao is shown to be equal to base Luffy, and Hawk rifle is the only attack we see luffy land on Chinjao on screen.

That doflamingo healed his insides with string as soon as he got up from the gamma knife, when is it noted he's healing in between that.

Doflamingo has an ability specifically meant to heal that damage so yes I'm comparing it. Luffy is physically shown injured and Doflamino even comments on it.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-783-page-9.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-779-page-16.html

Ok, so Katakuri's head does have feats from gear 4th, here's where he has them.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-895-page-3.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-884-page-4.html

Since none of those characters have AP feats vs base luffy those arguments are irrelevant in each instance luffy just uses it to blitz his opponent.

Monet was focused on the children. You think she's gonna mention the same thing over and over again? That's like saying Gin from bleach is gonna say his bankai speed against everyone he fights.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-686-page-14.html

Zoro called out Luffy because the whole team looked shitty.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-678-page-14.html

Headcanon Luffy said he's strong because he sensed it. He flat out said "he blocked my attack? wow, he's strong".

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-610-page-4.html

And the arc portrayed that "strong" in fishmen island = weak irl, via Zoro's proverb the Frog in the well.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-646-page-12.html

Chinjao matched Gear Second Luffy what are you talking about.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-716-page-17.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-719-page-3.html

And Chinjao jumped right up from it, so no.
Also, Luffy fighting Ideo is filler and anime canon. Stop using that argument.

You're comparing taking punches from an injured man is the same as getting your organs reconstructured.
Doflamingo flat out said "not the same as healing"

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-781-page-17.html

Come on now

You act like Gear Second isn't based on blood doping and such. This is the VSBW, we don't care about Oda. And if we do care about Oda, Gear Second was stated pre TS to raise Luffy's strength beyond it's limit, which is base. So unless Gear Second just flopped over the timeskip, Oda's word either matters fully (which works for me 100%) or doesn't work for me (which works 100%).

You used Katakuri coughing blood from punches from Snakeman as a dura feat. Same Snakeman with no feats. Same Snakeman sent him flying on the same page.
Bounceman sent him spinning into a wall and flat out confirmed "your armament haki isn't shit to bounceman" on the next page.

Luffy punches on Hody in base left and right. Hody gets sent flying and everyone comments on his resilience. They flat out say Hody can take that kind of damage (Base Luffy Damage). Even Luffy says "how tough is he? I was hitting him with Armament Haki"
Black and White is Viz

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-637-page-8.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-637-page-18.html

A half as strong Gear Second made a twice as strong Hody scream

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-639-page-9.html

So yes, it is an AP booster

 

[KingTempest]

Would it be wrong to propose my Gear Second multiplier here? Instead of doing it after and possibly redoing all of the scaling, is it just better to propose it here?

 

[CyborgSakumo]

A snake shot is a base attack so that is an irrelevant argument.

B Yeah he took one attacks from Luffy and was ready to pass out.

C That snakeman didn't send him flying with the attack to the fact, he sent him flying with the next attack even with Katakuri guarding meaning he's at least somewhat comparable to boundman

D Monet mentions that one of her attacks is stronger than the other and names it differently, but you want to use it downscale luffy even though he has feats which prove that ok sir.

E Yeah no Chinajo matched base luffy he doesn't specify a different attack name nor does he say gear second

F Doflamingo said not quite the same as healing but it could still work as emergency care to "rapidly reconstruct my organs". It's not full healing obviously he's injured but so is luffy, and luffy doesn't have any method of recovering from the injuries.

G You don't mention how oh right Base luffy harms both Katakuri and Doflamingo one 5 occasions, and in one case while luffy was injured and the other one was fresh.

Your argument right now is just attempting to downscale luffy because of his feats prior to Dresrosa even though he clearly wasn't serious in those fights. Luffy has 6 feats against 7-A characters that's not something that can just be overlooked because it doesn't agree with your interpretation of events.

Ok here are all of Base luffy's feats against 7-A characters


A near fatally injured Luffy harms a similarly injured Katakuri who later fights against gear 4th luffy.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-894-page-8.html

An injured luffy harms a fresh Katakuri who later takes multiple hits from gear 4th luffy.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-883-page-14.html

An injured base Luffy clashes with post gamma knife Doflamingo equally who later is capable of taking multiple hits from boundman.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-783-page-13.html

An injured base luffy manhandles a weakened Doflamingo who was capable of overpowering base luffy's durability with athlete foot.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-782-page-7.html

An injured base Luffy clashes with doflamingo directly after gamma knife who again was capable of overpowering base luffy's durability.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-782-page-3.html

An injured Luffy easily harms sanji without haki.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-856-page-14.html

That is 6 feats against 3 separate 7-A characters, two of which are 7-A+ this shouldn't be debatable.

 

[KingTempest]

A snake shot is a base attack so that is an irrelevant argument.

B Yeah he took one attacks from Luffy and was ready to pass out.

C That snakeman didn't send him flying with the attack to the fact, he sent him flying with the next attack even with Katakuri guarding meaning he's at least somewhat comparable to boundman

D Monet mentions that one of her attacks is stronger than the other and names it differently, but you want to use it downscale luffy even though he has feats which prove that ok sir.

E Yeah no Chinajo matched base luffy he doesn't specify a different attack name nor does he say gear second

F Doflamingo said not quite the same as healing but it could still work as emergency care to "rapidly reconstruct my organs". It's not full healing obviously he's injured but so is luffy, and luffy doesn't have any method of recovering from the injuries.

G You don't mention how oh right Base luffy harms both Katakuri and Doflamingo one 5 occasions, and in one case while luffy was injured and the other one was fresh.

Your argument right now is just attempting to downscale luffy because of his feats prior to Dresrosa even though he clearly wasn't serious in those fights. Luffy has 6 feats against 7-A characters that's not something that can just be overlooked because it doesn't agree with your interpretation of events.

A Oof, wrong scan.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-641-page-8.html

And yes, this is gear second, a regular punch.

B Can you send him being ready to pass out?
The only one on land where he was about to pass out was in Gear Second.

C Isn't snakeman not a good example since it's inconsistent depending on the speed? And snakeman has absolutely no feats comparing it to Bounceman. Also, no. He wouldn't be comparable to boundman for getting sent flying from his attack.

D Imma need a scan of her saying that. You must mean the Kamakura Jussoshi, the 10 layer barrier (which Luffy did not break through). There is no difference between what she used to protect Caesar and what she used to stop Nami and Robin.

E Tanks a Gear Second punch from Luffy and its stated that it had no effect. We see the steam coming off as he's preparing the attack.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-708-page-7.html

We see the steam coming off of his body when he kicks Sai in his stomach.

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-716-page-16.html

Tanks a Hawk Rifle from Luffy. Hawk attacks are G2nd

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-719-page-3.html

Yeah I'm pretty sure this is Gear Second

F Rapidly reconstruct my organs ≠ fix them fully.
Gear Second luffy kicked him post counter shock and he felt it.
Gear Second luffy hit him much later and he said it had no weight.
And do you not remember when Luffy would get chunks of his skin pushed out (against Katakuri) and they healed back? He definitely has natural healing.

G Hits them in their faces a bunch of times, but when he hits anywhere else it doesn't do any damage.

I'm not trying to downscale base Luffy at all. I'm trying to upgrade everybody else.

 

[CinCameron20]

To be honest that scene is littered with variables and the more variables you have the less reliable you are.

1. Luffy was destroyed by Sanji
2. Luffy was weary from Cracker
3. Neither really wanted to kill the other cause friends
4. None of this cross cancels out

I do think Luffy is 7-A going back to paramount war. I just think that rationale w/t Sanji is bogus af.

1. Sanji was attacking a docile and already fatigued/wounded Luffy. Not to mention he was using Diable Jambe. If anything, this would be a durability feat for Luffy considering he took multiple blows from DJ Sanji whilst already in a very damaged state.

2. Exactly. Sanji KO'd Luffy after numerous DJ blows, and then Luffy decked him in the face with a regular punch and caused him to bleed. Base Luffy > Sanji's Durability

3. I don't see how this works. Neither of their durability drops, and again--this is a feat for Base Luffy's Durability since he could take a lot of blows from Sanji and the worst damage he took resulted from a bloody nose and losing a single tooth.

4. What do you mean? If you're referring to this somehow being circle-scaling, that's not accurate considering Sanji should in no way get scaling from his "fight" against Luffy for the above reasons. Luffy on the other hand was in an injured state and could easily knock Sanji down with a punch that bruised his cheek and caused him to bleed from mouth and nose.

Base Luffy >/= Sanji. I fail to see how this goes any other way.
-----

@everyone -

The whole Doffy vs Luffy argument trying to scale Gear 2nd Luffy to Doflamingo is utterly laughable considering that conclusion can only be the result of people blatantly ignoring context and the fact that Doflamingo was already weakened and Luffy was incapable of hurting him with Gear 2nd in normal cases (minus Red Hawk, which has already been addressed many many times).

Doflamingo only ever took damage from Base (w/ Haki) and Gear 2nd Luffy immediately following Gamma Knife, and as the fight dragged on (Chapter 783), we see Doflamingo has already reached a level in which Luffy can not hurt him with his haki-imbued attacks.

----

Also, enough talking about nonsense that is; "unimportant/insufficient injuries vanishing must mean that they had no effect". This is an error in the material via editors or Oda himself making a minor mistake in including them, and should not be overlooked as a "minor" injury since we see "reappearing" injuries throughout the series.

We have Zoro's scars sometimes vanishing or being misplaced, yet does that mean we're going to suggest "I guess Zoro's Durability in East Blue is > Mihawk's AP"... No.
----

@KingTempest and @CyborgSakumo - I will say I'm not totally sure what is being argued for each side, but i'm going to add some points.

A - Hody already gets scaling from taking hits from Gear 2nd Luffy though.

C - Yeah, Snake-man has no business scaling to Bound-man as it is never stated to carry comparable power. Katakuri was rag-dolled by Bound-Man, but could contend with Snake-man in a fist-fight. Snake-man's just "faster", never stated to be as strong. Katakuri could stand in the same spot after taking an unblocked punch to the face (except he was using Haki at the time). That should be evidence enough Bound-Man > Snake-Man.

• In terms of power: Bound-Man > Snake-Man = Katakuri > Gear 3rd Luffy > Gear 2nd Luffy > Base Luffy.

D - I still don't see how Zoro would scale = Gear 2nd Luffy when both of them broke the same thing with no problem. It's just: Gear 2nd Luffy > Monet's wall vs Zoro > Monet's wall. There's no comparison between the two beyond this. You can easily argue Luffy > Zoro as you would suggest Zoro > Luffy in that aspect.

• Also, Luffy being unable to break through 10 layers is not a discredit to him since Zoro only ever had to deal with 1. idk why this is even being argued.

E - My issue with this is how there's smoke going around all of the characters before we even see Luffy. I wouldn't doubt he hit with a basic Gear 2nd punch, but the fact remains that he was suggesting to be "holding back" in some regard. However, Chinjao should at least scale comparable to Base Luffy since he forced the latter to go Gear 2nd towards the end of their fight (before talking smack and getting one-shot).

Sai was taken out of the fight though. I am aware he is shown conscious in the water shortly after, but it's clear that Sai wouldn't be able to full-scale to Gear 2nd Luffy if one DISMISSIVE kick did that to him (Even Gladius took a Jet Stamp better than that).

Chinjao took the Hawk Rifle with Haki on his abdomen and he was spitting up blood and knocked down. He was almost KO'd by the attack. If anything, I'd say Chinjao is = Base Luffy but < Gear 2nd Luffy (w/ Haki)

F - Again, vanishing injuries occur throughout the manga. Luffy's only regeneration feat was from his gag scene with Brook where he regrew his tooth. Katakuri's self-inflicted wound vanished several times but kept reappearing.

Kaido's wound from the scabbards striking his scar also vanished, but was shown to be bleeding again before stopping. It wont surprise me if we see blood there again.

G - Luffy only hurt Katakuri with Haki while in base form (granted he can only hit Katakuri with Haki anyways given the DF power).

Armament Haki having a separate AP from character base AP needs to be addressed NOW since it's clearly a problem for every Post-TS feat.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage3245 - I strongly advise that we shift the argument to "adding Haki as a separate AP tier" for all Armament users because this is clearly important given the above discussions.

Let's see, Luffy hurt doffy with the Red hawk, with the G2, and with Haki.

In Base, he did it with Haki, so should it scale to Base luffy with haki?

He definitely did it with the Red Hawk (Which already has Haki) And with G2 with a stamp.

You can ignore the blows to the abdominal area because as you say, Doflamingo was injured in that area, but how do you explain that luffy hurt him with two blows to the face, when he was totally healthy in that area?

Doflamingo already had blood coming out of his mouth before this, and Luffy's using Haki which wouldn't attribute to his Base AP. Also, having all the organs in your body ruptured simultaneously would clearly have an affect on one's ability to take strikes anywhere in the body. Lethargy, severe muscle spasms, body failure, etc. It's not just the torso that's rendered weakened--though it is the most tender spot, let me make that clear.

• That or it doesn't matter since this exchange is supposed to sell the point that Doflamingo is in a critical condition from the Gamma Knife (and we are reminded of that in the following chapter). Then Doflamingo takes a Haki-imbued attack from Luffy some time later and laughed it off with 0 damage. The point is that Luffy was losing his chance at defeating Doflamingo the longer the battle dragged out since Doffy was gradually regaining his strength and could easily take down Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy by the end of 783.

Point is: Before Gamma Knife (and during Chapter 783 where Doflamingo had some time to recover), Luffy's attacks were ineffective at every turn (except Red Hawk). After Gamma Knife (781 and 782), Luffy could hurt him.

 

[KingTempest]

Thanks for the input Cin

A:
Can that be changed? He could barely breathe and he took energy steroids to null the pain. Plus Luffy was under water, and humans are at half strength underwater (not including Luffy's devil fruit weakness).

C:
Agreed

D:
The 10 walls was what I was assuming he said to be stronger than the regular one.
Luffy needed a gatling gun to break the wall, and we see the wall still standing after a certain amount of time. Zoro used a regular slice.

E:
There's a certain curly smoke that comes from Luffy every time he uses Gear Second. Usually by his arms and/or feet.

Tbh, spitting up blood in One Piece needs to be re-looked at on a case by case basis.
Luffy did do that, yet Chinjao jumped back up and said "not good enough". Probably like a mini retcon in damage since Chinjao didn't take that much damage.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's my suggestion.

Whatever ratings, higher with Armament Haki ([Insert Char here] can amp his/her attacks with Armament Haki)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quick question Cin and everyone else.
How would you all feel about a Gear Second multiplier?

 

[KingTempest]

Also, Sai and Ideo were damaged already when Chinjao and Luffy hit them. That shouldn't be a justification for scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

How would you all feel about a Gear Second multiplier?

That would depend on the evidence for it, and the cosnsitency for it.

 

[Voltairee]

Maybe we can use this for G2 speed multiplier? https://images.mangafreak.net/mangas/one_piece/one_piece_388/one_piece_388_8.jpg

 

[Damage3245]

That link isn't working, but I went over the official translation of that chapter and there is no multiplier.