It had to be done | Naruto and Sasuke vs Luffy and Zoro | 11-0-0 (grace ended)

[DivineAura44]

it is back to narusasku vs lufzoro

Thank you. I think the match went to grace btw. (If you can make another match for Naruto & Saucegay vs Luffy & Sanji that'd be cool tho)

 

[Brogeefrong]

Thank you. I think the match went to grace btw. (If you can make another match for Naruto & Saucegay vs Luffy & Sanji that'd be cool tho)

Ill do it once grace ends

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

All the feats are in the profiles in the intelligence.

I dont see anything that puts them above nard and sauce.

Not what I was saying. Mike Tyson would still beat the shit out of Rick from Rick and Morty in hand to hand even with his strategies.

thats because of a difference in weightclass where things like skill start becoming less important at least IRL

It's skill but not 1:1 with actual showings of skill like in Baki or Kengan.

Your gonna have to be specific in what your trying to argue, if your talking about skill holistically then it shouldnt matter and if you want to compare individual feats then i need a specific reference point.

His intelligence is full of them.

Ive read it, and its mostly inverse scaling to people who are regarded in OP to be skilled, but that just like your earlier point, it doesnt mean much in crossverse without specific examples, and the only note worthy thing ive read is his ability to make tangible clones, hit vital organs and apparently create counter measures on the spot. which is fine and all but doesn't really place Zoro higher than Sasuke at all given the latter has comparable feats or scales to people with those comparable feats.

Scan?

cant really grab scans rn, but i can give you specific examples and hopefully someone here knows what im referring to.

1. Sasuke replicates the hand signs and jutsu of the firball jutsu from his dad from just watching him once.
2.later on Both Sasuke and Naruto copy Lee's ability and later on improve on it after just seeing it once.

Still gonna need a scan.

Final Valley Fight Naruto smooshes the kurama clones to make the Asura Avatar.

 

[Epiccheev]

Should've picked Sanji

Dies the instant Naruto pulls out the sexy jutsu

 

[LordGinSama]

I dont see anything that puts them above nard and sauce.

Zoro's feats, statements and scaling slams Sasuke's own swordsmanship feats.

thats because of a difference in weightclass where things like skill start becoming less important at least IRL.

Not really, Rick is a poor fighter that relies on strategy. You can have all the strategies you want, doesn't necessarily make you skill in hand to hand combat.

Your gonna have to be specific in what your trying to argue, if your talking about skill holistically then it shouldnt matter and if you want to compare individual feats then i need a specific reference point.

Again, Zoro's are all in his profile. I don't need to refer to a point for something that's already in the profile with an explanation.

Ive read it, and its mostly inverse scaling to people who are regarded in OP to be skilled, but that just like your earlier point, it doesnt mean much in crossverse without specific examples.

What do you even mean by specific examples? My guy, i don't need to explain why since Zoro's feats are in the profile already.

and the only note worthy thing ive read is his ability to make tangible clones, hit vital organs and apparently create counter measures on the spot. which is fine and all but doesn't really place Zoro higher than Sasuke at all given the latter has comparable feats or scales to people with those comparable feats.

In terms of shown feats, no Sasuke does not place within the same level of Zoro. Even looking at their swordsmanship skills it's clear that Zoro's are a lot more focused and impressive.

Skill based Prediction
Pinnacle of Swordsmanship (something Sasuke hasn't achieved in his own verse.)
Replicating complex forms of swordsmanship just by seeing them once
Unpredictable attack style (similar to Bee who molly whooped Sasuke.)
better body control
vastly more experience
Goken (Information Analysis, 2 types of Analytical Prediction + dura neg.)
Much more agile and acrobatic
Better and more experience in fighting against other swordsman.
Etc.


these are all in his profile and from what i'm seeing there's nothing that makes Sasuke comparable in swordsmanship to Zoro.

cant really grab scans rn, but i can give you specific examples and hopefully someone here knows what im referring to.

1. Sasuke replicates the hand signs and jutsu of the firball jutsu from his dad from just watching him once.

Isn't that also like a Sharingan thing? Zoro can do the same without something genetic / supernatural based.

2.later on Both Sasuke and Naruto copy Lee's ability and later on improve on it after just seeing it once.

Pretty sure they only copied some movements rather than Lee's entire set.

Final Valley Fight Naruto smooshes the kurama clones to make the Asura Avatar.

Imma look it up.

 

[Arcker123]

Rick is kinda a poor example because he'd oneshot Mike (9-B vs 10-A) and generally doesn't even have good strategic feats. His main intelligence feats are creating absurd pieces of technology.

 

[LordGinSama]

Rick is kinda a poor example because he'd oneshot Mike (9-B vs 10-A) and generally doesn't even have good strategic feats. His main intelligence feats are creating absurd pieces of technology.

Wrong, gay and reported for being Arcker123.

 

[Arcker123]

Reported for being Intellectually Dishonest.

 

[Godernet]

I very honestly don't see this as an issue for Zoro. Not only does he have really good Kenbun which grants him several kilometers of range (due to being at least relative to BoTS Luffy), which would allow him to see all of their attacks before they even get launched from kilometers away, but Zoro himself has some pretty good range, which would allow him to easily fight off Bijuu Bombs via flame rend, Resengan Barrages and clones with his own AoE attacks like Tatsumaki, Rasenshuriken with his Haki (defends against attacks to an sub-atomic level). Susanoo Arrows and TSOs get dealt via Buso Emission taking the attack for him, and I'm not sure what CT is.

A lot of those abilities you mentioned from Nard and Sauce have range of several thousands of kilometers, while Luffy can assist, this is still outside the realm of Zoro’s ability to assist without flight and since his range is only a few kilometers at best.

Genjutsu effects the 5 senses. Kenbunshoku (when active) acts like a different medium, allowing them to hear, feel, see, smell, taste things outside of the mind, which is why Rayleigh referred to it as being beyond tricks of the mind.

GJ affects sixth senses as well as it works on sensory types that allow for far more insight than kenbun such as Sage Mode.

You're also forgetting that it completely paralyzes so Luffy or Zoro won’t just be unconscious, but unable to move even

I honestly don't understand how you can say that Sasuke and Naruto are more skilled and intelligent in battle than Luffy and Zoro. At the very least they're relative.

They’re not at all relative in combat intelligence lets be frr

Zoro's skill and intelligence lies in his ability to understand and dissect his opponents' abilities and counter accordingly. When he first saw Mr. 2's ability, he was able to near-instantly think of a way to bypass it so that the crew won't get mixed up. Against Pica, Zoro was able to come up with multiple solutions instantly, and quickly figure out the weakness to his ability, and once he did so, he was able to trap Pica by sending out several strategical slashes (all happening in the moment without prior thinking), revealing his true body. Zoro was also able to quickly understand how Kaku's abilities worked.

if you look back at my post I actually highlighted this exact skill of Zoro's

whereas Luffy and Zoro are typically the types to adapt to an opponent's fighting style

the reason I didn't highlight this as important in comparison to Naruto and Sasuke is that this is a trait even the average smart genin possesses.

analyzing an opponent in seconds and quickly coming up with counter-measures is something people like Shikamaru, Sasuke, Neji, and even Naruto were doing as kids, let alone their shippuden selves who regularly intellectually bully smart fighters like Deidara and Danzo with multi-layered traps and plans for anything they could pull off, then you have mfs like Itachi who can understand everything about a person from a glance, and Minato who made countermeasures to beat one of the most annoying hax in the series in Kamui after only seeing it twice.

Maybe not, but Luffy's FS and Zoro's Kenbun would allow them to know where they'd pop up before they even use Substitution Jutsu or Amenotejikara, and with their superior speed, they'd land these attacks more often than not.

Kat predicting where Luffy is going to physically move and Zoro anticipating where Pica is going to physically travel isn't the same as Naruto or Sasuke essentially teleporting themselves to an entirely different location, there's no prediction to be had there especially since Sasuke and Naruto can also predict Luffy and Zoro's movements.

There's no proof that KoH is very energy-consuming for Zoro at this point. During his fight with King, it was only stated that EU is what was draining his energy, and this was after an extended fight with King, fighting Big Mom and Kaidou on rooftop, and sustaining pretty rough injuries that were slowly coming back twofold. He was able to use ACoC freely.

Now in Egghead, we see Zoro using EU without any issues or signs of it being nearly as stamina draining as it was during Wano, so as of right now, it's just as draining as any other ability is.

considering this is still directly after Wano and some time does pass between Kaido's defeat and egghead you'd have to prove he no longer had those negative effects of Enma directly after Wano.

As for Luffy, using Gear 4th does not drain much stamina for him. He was able to use it across several rooftop battles with Kaidou over the span of ~4 hours.

That usually when Luffy flickers in and out of G4 which is why is specifically said a full use of G4 would incap him like it did at the beginning of roof piece. after pummeling Zoan Kaido with Kong Gatling.

Regardless of these two facts, Luffy and Zoro can simply fight sparingly with these Gear 5 or Enma Unleashed if they need to like Zoro did against King.

Luffy has only had 1 big battle since awakening FS against Katakuri, in his fight with Kaidou, and in that fight, we see Luffy actively using FS to avoid and hit attacks, and just like we deduce Kenbun in fights, we can do similar things for Luffy, just like how Katakuri used it, especially considering during the entirety of Luffy's snakeman assault against Kaidou, he was apparently using FS according to the latter without any visual indication of it.

we only see him actively using it against Kaido one time, and that was directly after they had a dialogue where Luffy punched Kaido, declared he was gonna be king of the pirates, and had to wait for Kaido to drag his ass up. ofc he was calm and focused at the beginning of the fight. And Kaido referencing Luffy's ability to use FS isn't an example of him using it consistently during a heated fight to avoid hits. also when I reference FS not being reliable I was mainly talking about G5 where we don't really have any examples of him using FS or even Kenbun since he lets shit hit him a lot more often now.

Needing to be especially 'calm' in order to use FS is a common misconception. It was never stated that FS specifically needs calmness in order to be effecting. it was only stated for Kenbun in general, which aligns with what Satori said in Skypiea. Back to what Katakuri said, you don't need to be calm to use Kenbun, you just need to be in a normal state, which he was not, being very angry, embarrassed, and annoyed.

if its for kenbun in general that's even worse.

Luffy has never shown in pretty much any battle ever to lose focus and intent like that in a fight, so this would not happen to him.

G5 Luffy is all about being lost in the goofiness of his new abilities and trying anything and everything that works.

As for Gear 5 being the complete opposite of that, what is this based on? If you're talking about his goofy nature, that's just Luffy having fun, which we've seen him use FS while doing before.

Luffy cracking a smile while dodging fodder with Kenbun isn't the same as him being in an uncontrollable fit of laughter, going from a style of combat where he typically avoids attacks to letting attacks hit him just cause. even regular Luffy fights goofy but to say Base and G5 are at all the same is just not true at all.

Hao and Buso grant resistance to regeneration, so Naruto's Kurama Chakra wouldn't help here. Replacing them with the Yang Seal might work, but I really doubt he'd have time to do this when getting hit with hundreds of attacks at once. Haki also has resistance negation, so Naruto's resistance to attacks like that would be negated, even if we do equalize the two (which I don't agree to regardless)

nard has complete invulnerability to that kind of stuff, not a resistance that haki can dull.

Luffy's more unquantifiable amps that allow him to near-oneshot an opponent he clashed with prior to his laughing amp?

so does Naruto,

bro is capable of oneshotting people with massive rasengans that were relative to him physically let alone several of them, his Kurama avatar, and his Asura Avatar which is 3x stronger and Nard and Sauce already have an over 2x AP advantage regularly with just their h2h.

Luffy could simply throw Zoro out of the way.

Sasuke would do it right before Bajrang makes impact so that is not likely.

As for Sasuke switching places with Luffy or Zoro, their Haki would allow them to resist getting moved.

Ignoring the fact that Zoro doesn't have BM and Kaido lvls of innate Haki,

and even if we ignore that since Sasuke has Six Path chakra he's resistant to power null like that anyways.

the Law example seems more like a limitation of his own fruit's ability to move people with immense haki and not something that should limit all space-time abilities. especially since Amenotejikara has been shown to work on people with massively greater and stronger chakra than Sasuke himself like Kaguya and Isshiki.

The issue with this is that Luffy would see it coming with his FS and would warn Zoro about it. Even if they do get hit, What would stop Luffy from Bajrang Gunning it?

it flying into outer space and out of both of Luffy and Zoro's reaches regardless of who gets hit

Sasuke could also just teleport it out of the way of Bajrang gun.

 

[Godernet]

votes are also 9 for Nard and Sauce

no definite votes for the 2/3 of the monster trio yet.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Isn't that also like a Sharingan thing? Zoro can do the same without something genetic / supernatural based.

nah this is baby sasuke before he had a sharingan, he only awakens his sharingan during the land of waves

Pretty sure they only copied some movements rather than Lee's entire set.

They copied the parts they saw, obviously they didnt cop the stuff they didnt see...given..you know the whole point of this is them being able to replicate the abilities they saw.

Imma look it up.

aight

 

[XDragnoir]

I think there are some wrong points on both sides, for example:

The Naruto side seems to be downplaying what Kenbu can do in its entirety and focusing on some weak points that may not even apply here (like focus).

But on the other hand, OP side was treating sleep as the same thing as being unconscious and ignoring the fact GJ entirely messes up with your mind (and like, they'd need to apply Koka to their brain to stop it? Is that even possible?)

Then comes the skill debates which I think are just pointless, neither side is winning this by virtue of being better at H2H.

And stamina then? Damn, people trying to use AP to scale Zoro and Luffy to, idk, Jinbe's Stamina or people even implying Naruto and Sasuke could fight for days at full power (many hours is fair, but they're not spamming Susano'os and Avatars for 2 days straight).

 

[LordGinSama]

Rare Dragnoir W.

 

[LordGinSama]

Although as for Genjutsu I do wonder if Luffy's DF would be effected. The Nika Nika fruit is directly stated to have a mind of it's own after all.

 

[Godernet]

The Naruto side seems to be downplaying what Kenbu can do in its entirety and focusing on some weak points that may not even apply here (like focus).

Where was Kenbun downplayed?

Outside of Future Sight it's just not as relevant in the fight since everything Luffy and Zoro can do with it can also be done by Naruto and Sasuke's sixth senses, not to mention they've fought people like Juubito, Madara, and Kaguya who can do all of this too.


List of all things granted by Kenbun besides Precog

• Extrasensory Perception (Precognition, Enhanced Sight, Life Detection; Can sense the life energy in others, seeing if they are alive and when they die[11])
• Telepathy (Can read the minds of others, hearing their voices and thoughts[11])
• Enhanced Senses
• Enhanced Awareness (Can sense those near the user[10])
• Enhanced Hearing (Can hear the conversations of peoples kilometers away[10])
• Enhanced Vision (Users in training like Enel's vassals are shown to see kilometers away[11], and Aisa could do the same at birth[14]. More potent Kenbunshoku allows the user to see much further into the future)
• Aura Vision (Can see the auras of others[20])
• X-Ray Vision (Can look through walls to see the aura of others[20])
• Panoramic Vision (Their Haki is omnidirectional, allowing them to see all around them[11])
• Emotion Vision (Regularly sense the emotions and feelings of others[10])
• Clairvoyance and Limited Cosmic Awareness (Visual Linking; Can see through the eyes of others in other dimensions[21])
• Information Analysis and Extrasensory Perception (Power Reading; Can sense the power levels of opponents[10][22])
• Enhanced Senses
• Enhanced Vision
• Neutral Vision (Can see Haki, which is invisible[10])
• Instinctive Reaction (Kin'emon can sense and fight even without connection to his other senses, as his legs and torso moved around Punk Hazard using only his Kenbunshoku Haki and not any others[23][24][25]. Big Mom and Whitebeard can sense and fight while they're sleeping[26][27]. Rayleigh said that Luffy could unconsciously sense the emotions of living things[6])

Naruto and Sasuke can quite literally do every single one of these with Sharingan, Sage Mode, Six Path Sage Mode, or Kyuubi Chakra Mode. Not to mention they've fought people with similar abilities along with being stronger and faster than Nard and Sauce and still won.

a lot of these types of abilities just aren't game-changers in a fight with those two.

If anything is being downplayed it's the extrasensory abilities that come with the Sharingan and even regular Sage Mode.

Also, my argument for Luffy needing to focus was specifically towards G5 who at least as far as we've seen is far less cautious in combat than regular Luffy as his pure freedom and joy and this form make him fight in whatever way he fancies. even being more willing to take hits when he would normally avoid taking unnecessary attacks.

But on the other hand, OP side was treating sleep as the same thing as being unconscious and ignoring the fact GJ entirely messes up with your mind

agreed

(and like, they'd need to apply Koka to their brain to stop it? Is that even possible?)

this probably wouldn't work even if they could cause Sauce GJ Layers > Haki mental resistant layers.

but they're not spamming Susano'os and Avatars for 2 days straight).

Hashirama and Madara can do this for at least 24 hours and Naruto and Sasuke >>>>>>

There are a lot of characters in Nard that can fight for entire days at full power or even longer if they really need to.

There's even lore of Hagaromo and Hamura fighting Kaguya to prevent her from destroying the world for months straight.

 

[Godernet]

Although as for Genjutsu I do wonder if Luffy's DF would be effected. The Nika Nika fruit is directly stated to have a mind of it's own after all.

Zoan fruits in general are stated to have wills of their own but there's no real proof that doesn't necessarily mean there's multiple minds inside Zoan users.

Iirc the statement was made more to mean Zoan DFs naturally gravitate towards people with similar affinities to the animal said fruit contains.

 

[LordGinSama]

Iirc the statement was made more to mean Zoan DFs naturally gravitate towards people with similar affinities to the animal said fruit contains.

Doubtful considering The Nika Nika no Mi was actively avoiding the World Government.


Anyway that's irrelevant to this thread as that was my own curiosity. I definitely disagree with Nard and Sasuke being more skilled, more strategic? Sure but Zoro's swordsmanship is a lot better than Sasuke's and I'd say that Luffy and Naruto are both comparable to one another so ultimately skill probably isn't much of a factor here.


Outside of that how many layers does Sasuke's Genjutsu have?

 

[LordGinSama]

Naruto and Sasuke can quite literally do every single one of these or have fought and defeated people who can do all of these + more with their senses.

When have Naruto or Sasuke ever fought people that can read minds?

 

[XDragnoir]

Although as for Genjutsu I do wonder if Luffy's DF would be effected. The Nika Nika fruit is directly stated to have a mind of it's own after all.

I mean, is that mind "independent" enough to take full control of his body akin to Biju in a Jinchuriki and wouldn't sasuke simply be able to GJ it again? Seems interesting but not a solution.

Juubito, Madara, and Kaguya

Which of these 3 has AoE mind reading paired with intent reading and power/presence sensing?

all of these + more with their senses.

I am also interested on what you mean by "+ more", what can they do that Kenbu can't?

Hashirama and Madara can do this for at least 24 hours and Naruto and Sasuke

Two days is 48 hours, unless you can give some solid numbers you're not doubling the time just because, mainly because Naruto's and Sasuke's own jutsu should also consume a lot more, meaning the number should probably just even out at the end.

I am not objectively saying they can't, I don't know that much about Naruto, but y'all should explain things better if you want to use it as an argument.

 

[Godernet]

I definitely disagree with Nard and Sasuke being more skilled, more strategic? Sure but Zoro's swordsmanship is a lot better than Sasuke's and I'd say that Luffy and Naruto are both comparable to one another so ultimately skill probably isn't much of a factor here.

I heavily disagree with Zoro or Luffy being on the level of Naruto or Sasuke in skill but you're right we don't have to get into that today.

Outside of that how many layers does Sasuke's Genjutsu have?

10(for now)

 

[Cass5373]

Vote for Naruto and Sasuke

 

[LordGinSama]

heavily disagree with Zoro or Luffy being on the level of Naruto or Sasuke in skill but you're right we don't have to get into that today.

I'll happily slam you in a Sasuke vs Zoro skill debate. Sasuke objectively is not on Zoro's level in terms of swordsmanship.

10(for now)

Has that been verified on the layers evaluation thread?

 

[Godernet]

Which of these 3 has AoE mind reading paired with intent reading and power/presence sensing?

all three have intent reading and power/presence sensing, they have mind reading to an extend via analytical prediction and true mind reading via GJ. sasuke and other rinnegan users can read minds by touching you via the human path.

I am also interested on what you mean by "+ more", what can they do that Kenbu can't?

see and sense things that reside in other dimensions.

Nard has used Sage Mode senses to watch the Fourth Great Ninja war and everything that was happening in it from countries away.

Nard can see things with layered invisibility via Sage Mode(King of Hell is invisible even to the sharingan that can already see invisible things).

The Sharingan can see energy and matter down to a cellular level.

The Sharingan can also let you understand a persons movements and skill almost to a form of photographic memeory to the point that you can just straight up copy and use other people’s fighting styles and ninjutsu after seeing it done once.

Two days is 48 hours, unless you can give some solid numbers you're not doubling the time just because, mainly because Naruto's and Sasuke's own jutsu should also consume a lot more, meaning the number should probably just even out at the end.

It’s not doubling just cause, it’s because a persons chakra is directly drawn from their stamina pool. If a person has vastly more chakra they also have more stamina to work with.

Another example if you prefer this one is that the 3rd Raikage can fight an army of thousands of Shinobi for three days straight and Naruto has incomparably more stamina and chakra than anyone in the verse by the end of the series.

 

[Godernet]

I'll happily slam you in a Sasuke vs Zoro skill debate.

“Nah I’d win”

Sasuke objectively is not on Zoro's level in terms of swordsmanship.

You’d be surprised

Has that been verified on the layers evaluation thread?

As far as I’ve heard from Slayer yes, but there are also arguments for more layers that haven’t been made yet.

lowkey 10 layers is conservative for god tier GJ

 

[Epiccheev]

You’d be surprised

Skill debate incoming

 

[Eminiteable]

Zoan fruits in general are stated to have wills of their own but there's no real proof that doesn't necessarily mean there's multiple minds inside Zoan users.

Iirc the statement was made more to mean Zoan DFs naturally gravitate towards people with similar affinities to the animal said fruit contains.

Zoan Fruits have made inanimate objects like swords, cannons and poisonous gas living creatures with their own minds etc. The fruits themselves do have a will of their own and this includes effecting the user themselves, one of the risks of zoan awakening is the innate nature of the zoan consuming the user because of this.

 

[Nierre]

nard and sauce clear fra

 

[Loyd]

Leaning towards Nah toe and Sus guy FRA.

Probably use their Megazord mode more times than Bankai spammers

 

[Godernet]

Zoan Fruits have made inanimate objects like swords, cannons and poisonous gas living creatures with their own minds etc. The fruits themselves do have a will of their own and this includes effecting the user themselves, one of the risks of zoan awakening is the innate nature of the zoan consuming the user because of this.

I actually forgot that point about zoans absorbing the users.

Tho tbf it wouldn’t change much as far as GJ is concerned.

 

[DivineAura44]

11 - 0 is crazy
The match over, y'all didn't get the memo???

 

[Padaruyos]

Damn a Naruto sweep

 

[MintyBoi1]

Rasengan is too hard

 

[Carfusso]

Alright I know this is pointless (expecially since I agree with the outcome even though I disagree with 99% of the arguments) but still let me waste some time...

the T.L.D.R. is that I agree that the ninjas very likely win but that is (almost...AP helps quite a bit too) solely due to the fact that genjutsu is stupid and I'm not convinced haki can counter it.

HOWEVER
1)The skill point is...annoying:
A lot of people seem to be ignoring the difference between tactical and combat skill and.... (poetically) true to the nature of each series Nausuke 100% have the better tactical minds but Lufforo slam in the CQC department almost as hard without even counting Kenbun and their speed (Zoro's first real move vs Hachi in Arlong park alone outdoes most feats in Naruto). Once we get to kenbun (and their significant speed advantage) that all but nullifies any 500IQ plans the ninjas can pull off (try outplanning someone that can read your mind AND see several seconds into the future...see how that turns out for you) but, on the other hand, I doubt this fight will get down to hardcore CQC because Genjutsu is (again) stupid and AP means the ninjas only need very few hits with their MASSIVE AoEs to win, couple that with flight and the fight gets quite hard.

2)mid tier Kebun is just better:
Not saying Narusuke don't have great sensing of their own but their only real edge there is the (irrelevant) interdimentional range, as for any practical purposes the red eye reads muscle movent while kenbun lets you know exactly what they're doing b4 they even move, Nardo can sense emotions and intent while kenbun does the same on top of reading their minds and seeing how strong they are. I'm forgetting stuff but I'm more than willing to bet that mid tier kenbun outdoes any precognition and senses Narusuke have in anything but range...and Luffy has Future sight on top of all that (and no the "being calm" requirement doesn't mean they can't use it when fighting hard, EXTREME emotional distress is needed to turn it off...Satori himself admits he's just bad at it)

3)Most other hax vs buso
As far as I'm aware all hax but genjutsu is covered by buso (whether directly or emission stopping the TSO from making contact...and those can still be dodged) so stuff like Sasuke moving them with the "darts-target-eye" (sorry, don't want to spell it wrong) is not happening.

There are obviously other factors as well but these were some of the more relevant Imo.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

all three have intent reading and power/presence sensing, they have mind reading to an extend via analytical prediction and true mind reading via GJ. sasuke and other rinnegan users can read minds by touching you via the human path.

Sasuke can also just casually retrieve memories and information with the sharingan as well.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Godernet spittin

Naruto and Sauce FRA

grace started here btw

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

(try outplanning someone that can read your mind AND see several seconds into the future...see how that turns out for you)

Base Jiraiya and Kid Boruto already did this

 

[karo_senpaii]

Base Jiraiya and Kid Boruto already did this

This made me chuckle. It felt like he didn't actually think there would be a response to this

 

[Godernet]

as for any practical purposes the red eye reads muscle movent while kenbun lets you know exactly what they're doing b4 they even move,

actually the sharingan does do this

Nardo can sense emotions and intent while kenbun does the same on top of reading their minds and seeing how strong they are.

Sage Mode also tells you how strong people are. The Sharingan Genjutsu can also read minds, Rinngan users can read minds either by touching people or stabbing them with a black receiver, along with the fact that some people in Nard can glance at someone and know everything about them with their intelligence alone including their thoughts, fears, and lifestyle.

I'm forgetting stuff but I'm more than willing to bet that mid tier kenbun outdoes any precognition and senses Narusuke have in anything but range..

not really, Obv haki's only advantage is precog. the Sharingan grants a lot more utility

aside from doing everything Kenbun can do(except FS) it can also:

• potentially give its users a form of photographic memory
• letting them copy the movements, fighting styles, and ninjutsu of others.
• reading lips and seeing through walls or seeing invisible things.
• being able to see things at a cellular lvl including energy, viruses, or physical matter.
• astrally project yourself into peoples minds(not genjutsu either just invading their subconscious)

3)Most other hax vs buso
As far as I'm aware all hax but genjutsu is covered by buso (whether directly or emission stopping the TSO from making contact...

- Buso emission is just Buso Haki(spiritual energy) flowing outside the body, so TSO just destroys it like any other spiritual energy.

- and there are a lot of hax that Luffy and Zoro can't deal with that the Narusuke duo have, some that I didn't even mention like the Human Path.

and those can still be dodged) so stuff like Sasuke moving them with the "darts-target-eye" (sorry, don't want to spell it wrong) is not happening.

Sasuke can TP them into attacks where there is room to dodge.

The Momoshiki fight also showed us he can swap jutsu with things people are already touching.

he can swap Luffy's straw hat or one of Zoro's swords with a TSO that they would already be holding.

 

[Carfusso]

Base Jiraiya and Kid Boruto already did this

Ignoring the fact that this doesn't necessarily mean Naruto or Sasuke can do the same...
No one in Naruto can straight up see several seconds into the future and as for the mind reading...when did that happen? (haven't read nor seen Boruto but in Jiraya's case I'm quite sure)

actually the sharingan does do this

The sharingan is reading what's about to happen based on how they're moving, not before they move and it can only predict stuff based on movement while kenbun can also tell you (e.g.) where Goku is about to instant transmission to. (or, more relevant to this discussion, where and what does Sasuke want to TP)

Sage Mode also tells you how strong people are. The Sharingan Genjutsu can also read minds, Rinngan users can read minds either by touching people or stabbing them with a black receiver, along with the fact that some people in Nard can glance at someone and know everything about them with their intelligence alone including their thoughts, fears, and lifestyle.

Didn't remember that about sage mode, I'll just trust you.
GJ mind reading is irrelevant, if you're in a GJ without means to break out you already lost and if you can break out it's still irrelevant because...well...you're out, no mind reading. Unless you can bring an example of anyone ever reading someone's mind and not have them in an illusion that instawins regardless.
The Rinnegan point is even worse since they can only do that while these conditons are met during the fight, unlike Kenbun as that acts like a second pair of ears while it's active.
The third part...I only really remember Naruto and Sasuke being able to do that to each other, mind posting some proof?

not really, Obv haki's only advantage is precog. the Sharingan grants a lot more utility

aside from doing everything Kenbun can do(except FS) it can also:

• 
  
  • potentially give its users a form of photographic memory
  • letting them copy the movements, fighting styles, and ninjutsu of others.
  • reading lips and seeing through walls or seeing invisible things.
  • being able to see things at a cellular lvl including energy, viruses, or physical matter.
  • astrally project yourself into peoples minds(not genjutsu either just invading their subconscious)
  [*]

Don't act like precog (in a straight up fight at least) isn't more useful than most of these combined (copying would hold some merit if there was anything to copy here, Luffy and Zoro's fighting style isn't based on stuff Sasuke could copy exept maybe Zoro's long range slashes but Sasuke has better ranged options regardless) and Haki does "see" through walls



- Buso emission is just Buso Haki(spiritual energy) flowing outside the body, so TSO just destroys it like any other spiritual energy.


That would mean equalizing chakra to haki when they couldn't be more different (devil fruits ironically have more in common with chakra than haki does), if it was in the OP sure, but I must have missed it.

- and there are a lot of hax that Luffy and Zoro can't deal with that the Narusuke duo have, some that I didn't even mention like the Human Path.

I can't remember all the names...isn't human path the soul one? I'm pretty sure haki resists soul fuckery AND doesn't it require contact?

Sasuke can TP them into attacks where there is room to dodge.

The Momoshiki fight also showed us he can swap jutsu with things people are already touching.

he can swap Luffy's straw hat or one of Zoro's swords with a TSO that they would already be holding.

Haki resists space manipulation, Luffy, Zoro and anything they hold is very much safe from the swap.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Isn't haki literally just the use of spiritual energy within themselves?