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Tokyo Revengers Speed Calcs Conclusion

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Syncornize

Syncornize

233
99
This is the sequel of this and this since in both threads a conclusion has never been reached so I'll try to summarize the main issues with all the calcs in the speed section:

Izana dashes at Mikey:
"Izana attempted to blitz Mikey after his appearance in the Tenjiku fight, but the attack was blocked by Mikey, however, the speed was so great that it absolutely terrified the other characters there"as the calc says this and treat "absolutely terrified" as a blitz which doesn't really look like one since they kinda react to it and nothing really suggests Izana traveled that distance before they could react despite "he's fast".
The calc uses 0,029 s as reaction when it's calc stacking following this rule "Examples of calc stacking that can not be applied: Character A moved so fast that character B couldn't react to him. So character A needs to have crossed the distance until he could be seen by character B again in the time that character B requires to react. Since we know from a calculation how long character B needs to react we can calculate the speed of character A based on that." Since there are no statements implying they have that reaction and the only way to prove it is from other calcs

Takemichi dodges a kick (2) :
First why is this even here when the other calc has been removed? (is literally the same feat)
The pixel scaling is completely wrong since to find the distance between Takemichi and the kick a line has been traced between the nose and the foot implying the kick is coming from the front when we clearly see the kick is coming from the side so angsizing is the only valid way to calculate that distance
The calc itself implies that Takemichi is several time faster than Mikey when he literally is barely dodging those kick, Mikey is also still superior than him in speed since he is top 1 in the verse and Mikey even scales up from this feat when the feat says he is slower than Takemihci, also I'll link this thread since it explains many issues of calculating this type of feat

Draken saves Takemitchi from bullets:
Only the speed of the bullet isn't assumed ("I estimate 1 meter for his starting point and 0.4 meter for projectile shot.").
We don't really know what happened and the only thing we know is that Draken was in there, we don't even know if he just blitzed the guy or if he truly ran after the first bullet was shoot
Another problem of this calc is that if the result was truly correct it doesn't make sense that Senju wasn't able to do anything in first place and needed Draken to come in when she should be faster than him, in less words it doesn't make sense that a character who is 4x time faster than a bullet couldn't just take Takemichi to go away and avoiding those bullets which are 4x times slower than her while also being several meters away.

Izana saves Kakucho from bullets:
The main problem here is that we don't know when Izana started to run and we just assume he started only after the first bullet was shoot when the context of the feat is that Izana's body moved by its own in order to protect Kakucho and the most reasonable time when he started to run is when he realized Kakucho was going to die and we have Kisaki saying die! so I have no idea why we just assume his body waited until the bullet was shoot. It's more likely the panels of Kisaki shooting and Izana pushing Kakucho are happening at the same time since the onomatopoeias are shared in both.
Kakucho is actually rated as supersonic/supersonic+ so dodging that bullet by his own shouldn't be a problem at all but still he couldn't and needed Izana's help to do it so I don't get why Izana should be worried about him in this situation

South deflects an umbrella:
"For the speed of the umbrella, I'm going to use baseline subsonic speed, because Senju is top tier character in the verse (a verse where even mid tiers can be scaled above baseline FTE) and the panel is drawn with a lot of motion blur, indicating that the umbrella was thrown at a very high speed." that's just a crazy assumption considering the speed you can move has nothing to do with the speed you can throw something and there aren't sources to find a reliable speed for a thrown umbrella especially when an umbrella isn't a thing meant to be thrown, also a point that has been made to justify that the umbrella is subsonic is that South couldn't properly percive it which implies that South can't percive subsonic speed but still the calc scales him to supersonic+, which doesn't make sense.

Also I want to point out that god tiers in the verse consider a pistol a dangerous weapon when low-mid tiers are supposed to be at least as fast as a bullet and god tiers are easily 3-4x times faster (scan)
We see Takemichi and Draken worried about Mikey when Izana was pointing at him with a gun and we know Mikey is supposed to be able to no diff a bullet in case Izana shot based on calcs results, especially Draken always fought on Mikey's size and knows what he is capable of, also Draken himself is supposed to be able to dodge that and still in this situation he is worried for Mikey who can easily blitz him which doesn't make sense at all
In the other scans we see Draken right after Draken saves Takemitchi from bullets that calls a gun "a dangerous weapon", so Draken who from that calc is supposed to be 3x time faster than that bullet calls the same gun he could outspeed a dangerous weapon? It just doesn't make sense and Takemichi who is supersonic to supersonic+ states "they went as far as using a gun" when he and Senju could easily dodge that by their own.

Conclusion:
The calcs have many issues which are already been discussed in the previous threads and all the CGMs comments I saw imply the calcs are bad and have many problems :
- Comment 1
- Comment 2
- Comment 3
- Comment 4
- Comment 5
+ the author doesn't mean his character to be faster than a bullet but still these calcs scale them even 3-4x tme faster than a bullet.

NOTE:
Considering the only purpose of this thread is to reach a conclusion and not to discuss the calcs again it would better if someone who participated the last threads could summarize the points made by who wants to keep the calcs on the verse and just to wait for staff input. ( otherwise this thread will also became a mess like the other one)
 
The conclusion is all of those calcs are pretty much unusable as you seem to get in the OP and the some of feats themselves for some can't be done without breaking our cslc stacking guidelines and should just be ignored and only used for in series scaling purposes not for calculating feats
 
Disagree with literally everything, all of your points expect the Takemichi dodges a kick calc, but you also messed up its not the same feat as the other calc, just because there similar doesn't make em the same calc
 
MysticCarnage said:
Disagree with literally everything, all of your points expect the Takemichi dodges a kick calc, but you also messed up its not the same feat as the other calc, just because there similar doesn't make em the same calc
Click to expand...
This isn't a disagree thing, most of these are literally unusable and methods previously done were all flaked with calc stacking, assumptions for values without any ways to measure, and incorrect methods when used calculate feats. That's a fact and the links to several comments of the other CGMs from threads I also participated in and followed up on are a nail in the coffin.
 
The izana calc was debunked by a couple other users and several CGMs in other threads and these two calcs
Syncornize said:
Takemichi dodges a kick (2) :
First why is this even here when the other calc has been removed? (is literally the same feat)
The pixel scaling is completely wrong since to find the distance between Takemichi and the kick a line has been traced between the nose and the foot implying the kick is coming from the front when we clearly see the kick is coming from the side so angsizing is the only valid way to calculate that distance
The calc itself implies that Takemichi is several time faster than Mikey when he literally is barely dodging those kick, Mikey is also still superior than him in speed since he is top 1 in the verse and Mikey even scales up from this feat when the feat says he is slower than Takemihci, also I'll link this thread since it explains many issues of calculating this type of feat
Click to expand...
Syncornize said:
South deflects an umbrella:
"For the speed of the umbrella, I'm going to use baseline subsonic speed, because Senju is top tier character in the verse (a verse where even mid tiers can be scaled above baseline FTE) and the panel is drawn with a lot of motion blur, indicating that the umbrella was thrown at a very high speed." that's just a crazy assumption considering the speed you can move has nothing to do with the speed you can throw something and there aren't sources to find a reliable speed for a thrown umbrella especially when an umbrella isn't a thing meant to be thrown, also a point that has been made to justify that the umbrella is subsonic is that South couldn't properly percive it which implies that South can't percive subsonic speed but still the calc scales him to supersonic+, which doesn't make sense
Click to expand...
Are completely unusable considering guidelines established in this thread and the fact that they entertain calc stacking

Thread 'Common Calc Concern: Evading the punches of other characters' https://vsbattles.com/threads/common-calc-concern-evading-the-punches-of-other-characters.156252/
 
Syncornize said:
Izana dashes at Mikey:
"Izana attempted to blitz Mikey after his appearance in the Tenjiku fight, but the attack was blocked by Mikey, however, the speed was so great that it absolutely terrified the other characters there"as the calc says this and treat "absolutely terrified" as a blitz which doesn't really look like one since they kinda react to it and nothing really suggests Izana traveled that distance before they could react despite "he's fast".
The calc uses 0,029 s as reaction when it's calc stacking following this rule "Examples of calc stacking that can not be applied: Character A moved so fast that character B couldn't react to him. So character A needs to have crossed the distance until he could be seen by character B again in the time that character B requires to react. Since we know from a calculation how long character B needs to react we can calculate the speed of character A based on that." Since there are no statements implying they have that reaction and the only way to prove it is from other calcs

Takemichi dodges a kick (2) :
First why is this even here when the other calc has been removed? (is literally the same feat)
The pixel scaling is completely wrong since to find the distance between Takemichi and the kick a line has been traced between the nose and the foot implying the kick is coming from the front when we clearly see the kick is coming from the side so angsizing is the only valid way to calculate that distance
The calc itself implies that Takemichi is several time faster than Mikey when he literally is barely dodging those kick, Mikey is also still superior than him in speed since he is top 1 in the verse and Mikey even scales up from this feat when the feat says he is slower than Takemihci, also I'll link this thread since it explains many issues of calculating this type of feat
Click to expand...
I'm fine with removing these, though the first one could be good with the reasoning that Mikey has been stated to be faster than eye, and he should be able to react to attacks with similar speeds, but he could barely block that kick from Izana.

Dalesean027 said:
The izana calc was debunked
Click to expand...
No it wasn't.
 
CorbinMLG said:
I'm fine with removing these, though the first one could be good with the reasoning that Mikey has been stated to be faster than eye, and he should be able to react to attacks with similar speeds, but he could barely block that kick from Izana.


No it wasn't.
Click to expand...
The izana dashing at Mikey one.. Yes it was
 
Dalesean027 said:
This isn't a disagree thing, most of these are literally unusable and methods previously done were all flaked with calc stacking, assumptions for values without any ways to measure, and incorrect methods when used calculate feats. That's a fact and the links to several comments of the other CGMs from threads I also participated in and followed up on are a nail in the coffin.
Click to expand...
Yes it is a disagree thing, TR scalers have been arguing for these calcs for a while, when I wasn't on the site I saw a couple arguments relating to these calcs and I agreed with the TR calcers in most instances, We can debate this for a longggggggggggggggg time
Dalesean027 said:
The izana calc was debunked by a couple other users and several CGMs in other threads and these two calcs

Are completely unusable considering guidelines established in this thread and the fact that they entertain calc stacking

Thread 'Common Calc Concern: Evading the punches of other characters' https://vsbattles.com/threads/common-calc-concern-evading-the-punches-of-other-characters.156252/
Click to expand...
It was never debunked, the gun calc has gotten downgraded

Huh ?! Have you read the series ? What are your concerns that relate to this calc
 
Syncornize said:
We don't really know what happened and the only thing we know is that Draken was in there, we don't even know if he just blitzed the guy or if he truly ran after the first bullet was shoot
Click to expand...
If we were to go strictly based on the order of the panels, the gun was shot first.
Syncornize said:
Another problem of this calc is that if the result was truly correct it doesn't make sense that Senju wasn't able to do anything in first place
Click to expand...
Base Senju*
This Senju is not that strong, her brother himself saw her as inferior to Wakasa and Benkei, who aren't that strong in the first place.
Syncornize said:
Izana saves Kakucho from bullets:
The main problem here is that we don't know when Izana started to run and we just assume he started only after the first bullet was shoot when the context of the feat is that Izana's body moved by its own in order to protect Kakucho and the most reasonable time when he started to run is when he realized Kakucho was going to die and we have Kisaki saying die! so I have no idea why we just assume his body waited until the bullet was shoot.
Click to expand...
He would be reacting to the gun being fired because it's the most impactful one, if it was the "die", the author would've shown him sooner, but guess what? He was only shown after 3 panels where each of the panels contained important events (gun being fired).
Syncornize said:
It's more likely the panels of Kisaki shooting and Izana pushing Kakucho are happening at the same time since the onomatopoeias are shared in both.
Click to expand...
I see you're coming from that terrible tiktok debunk. Terrible I must say, reading starts from right side. This should be common sense/knowledge.
Syncornize said:
also a point that has been made to justify that the umbrella is subsonic is that South couldn't properly percive it which implies that South can't percive subsonic speed but still the calc scales him to supersonic+, which doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
No dude, it's because baseline subsonic is the fastest thing we can use here. South being unable to properly perceive the umbrella doesn't mean he has a problem with dealing subsonic attacks universally, if you were to calculate Mikey blitzing takemichi right before Takemichi got the precognition, using 0.08 or 0.0291, you'll get low-mid end Subsonic results in most of them. Does that mean that Takemichi has trouble dealing with low-mid end Subsonic attacks? No, because he fought on par with Kakucho.
 
Post in thread 'Calc Stacking in Tokyo Revengers' https://vsbattles.com/threads/calc-stacking-in-tokyo-revengers.154723/post-5821492






Apparently though no CGMs ever commentrd on any of this right?
Syncornize said:
Conclusion:
The calcs have many issues which are already been discussed in the previous threads and all the CGMs comments I saw imply the calcs are bad and have many problems :
- Comment 1
- Comment 2
- Comment 3
- Comment 4
- Comment 5
Click to expand...
Everyone just said these were fine right

And surely those calcs were fine by these standards Right??
Dalesean027 said:
Thread 'Common Calc Concern: Evading the punches of other characters' https://vsbattles.com/threads/common-calc-concern-evading-the-punches-of-other-characters.156252/
Click to expand...

Like we're really gonna sit here and bullshit
 
Dalesean027 said:
Thread 'Common Calc Concern: Evading the punches of other characters' https://vsbattles.com/threads/common-calc-concern-evading-the-punches-of-other-characters.156252/
Click to expand...
I have no idea how to feel about this, M3X said that you can't use speeds which contradicts the profiles and KLOL and you seem to agree with it.

But agnaa said this
Fair enough if you think that, but the line we draw for assumptions on these sorts of feats is "something that humans can do". Everything else has to be derived from within that scene itself. So them having Supersonic+ feats elsewhere is irrelevant, in our eyes. They could have half a dozen FTL statements, and in a scene that doesn't have them, we'd assume them to be peak human.
Click to expand...
Which itself is a contradiction.
 
Dalesean027 said:
Post in thread 'Calc Stacking in Tokyo Revengers' https://vsbattles.com/threads/calc-stacking-in-tokyo-revengers.154723/post-5821492






Apparently though no CGMs ever commentrd on any of this right?
Everyone just said these were fine right

And surely those calcs were fine by these standards Right??

Like we're really gonna sit here and bullshit
Click to expand...
All of these expect one are directed at the first two calculations and the umbrella one. I have already agreed with removing the Takemichi kick dodging calculation, and provided a new reasoning that could work for the Izana dashing calculation. I believe the umbrella calculation can be discussed further.
 
MorrisHatesYou said:
I have no idea how to feel about this, M3X said that you can't use speeds which contradicts the profiles and KLOL and you seem to agree with it
Click to expand...
literally every CGM in this thread is in general agreement and M3X is absolutely right
MorrisHatesYou said:
But agnaa said this

Which itself is a contradiction.
Click to expand...
I can't speak on Agnaa as they've been very busy and couldn't comment on the new thread but just about every CGM in that thread has commented on some TR stuff before and we're pretty much all in agreement those sorta calcs don't work and that if the shit is contradictory to the profiles and narrative then it shouldn't be used in calcs and even then what you're trying to do in TR with calculating these Supersonic feats from like basic punches, kicks, and hell throwing an umbrella is get values in higher speed ranges to justify the usage of subsonic speeds on calcs which is just hidden calc stacking which is covered in that thread. I highly recommend you to actually read whats been proposed there.
 
In fact this is a golden opportunity for yall to ask directly in their with all the eyes in that thread if those calcs are fine by the defined standards and see what answers you get, worse that can happen is that the comment is ignored best case scanario you get an answer that answers this entire thread in one go so go for it
 
I agree

I want to add one more comment about the calcs from DMUA (doesn't say much, just that they are bad) and yeah... I can tell most CGMs don't agree with the calcs
 
Dalesean027 said:
In fact this is a golden opportunity for yall to ask directly in their with all the eyes in that thread if those calcs are fine by the defined standards and see what answers you get, worse that can happen is that the comment is ignored best case scanario you get an answer that answers this entire thread in one go so go for it
Click to expand...
So mystic took this chance to comment in the thread and as i said before these calcs don't work, the umbrella, the dash, and the kick would all be not work going by this thread
 
Dalesean027 said:
So mystic took this chance to comment in the thread and as i said before these calcs don't work, the umbrella, the dash, and the kick would all be not work going by this thread
Click to expand...
Rip to all the other Tier 9 verses who got their speed results from punches and kicks, most of them are gonna get removed, RIP.
 
Dalesean027 said:
So mystic took this chance to comment in the thread and as i said before these calcs don't work, the umbrella, the dash, and the kick would all be not work going by this thread
Click to expand...
So now we just wait for some staff to approve to remove the calc? (it would be hard considering the reputation this verse has on the wiki)
 
Suppose someone could call some staff here and another CGM wouldn't hurt
MorrisHatesYou said:
Rip to all the other Tier 9 verses who got their speed results from punches and kicks, most of them are gonna get removed, RIP.
Click to expand...
Yeah but shit we can't go halfway with this stuff and some of that stuff is really sus so it has to go
 
Its not the end of the world if they have legit feats from stuff that isn't just punching and kicking look at say unordinary that's one of such tier 9 verses that has hypersonic via electricity dodging so its not unrealistic to have actual feats like this from lower tiered verses.

vsbattles.fandom.com

UnOrdinary

The world is not perfect. Learning to deal with its flaws is just a normal part of life. But there comes a point where these imperfections spawn a crushing realization... that something needs to change... UnOrdinary is a urban fantasy webtoon by an artist known as Uruchan. The main character...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The OP makes a solid point of this and explains why such verses like lookism or this one for example have some shit that's definitely not valid being used to jump up to insane tiers speedwise that are contradicted in the narrative.

Hell marvel and DC have had major revisions for this same shit and got their street tiers who used to be like MHS-MHS+ downgraded to Hypersonic up to High Hypersonic+ its just making shit more consistent to the in universe portrayal of the characters and not wanking with high ends and not inventing non feats to use hidden calc stacking on


All that said I'd say seek another CGM opinion on the izana bullet feat
 
MysticCarnage said:
Yes it is a disagree thing, TR scalers have been arguing for these calcs for a while, when I wasn't on the site I saw a couple arguments relating to these calcs and I agreed with the TR calcers in most instances, We can debate this for a longggggggggggggggg time
Click to expand...
There's no debate here. The calcs objectively go against our standards and are unusable as a result
 
I’m with Uchiha on this. If the calc members are saying that the calcs in question go against how we handle this stuff, then we can’t use them
 
Lonkitt said:
I’m with Uchiha on this. If the calc members are saying that the calcs in question go against how we handle this stuff, then we can’t use them
Click to expand...
UchihaSlayer96 said:
I'm not a CGM, nor am I very knowledgeable on Tokyo Revengers, but if the CGMs all agreed that the calcs are bust, then they definitely are.
Click to expand...
Alright, thanks for the evaluation, I'll apply the changes and I'll put a peak human/superhuman speed for now until a new calc gets accepted since there are no other calcs on the page now.
 
@Syncornize: None of the messages are about the bullet outspeeding calculations, which the verse mainly scales to. If you start changing the speed statistics despite this, I will report you.
 
CorbinMLG said:
@Syncornize: None of the messages are about the bullet outspeeding calculations, which the verse mainly scales to. If you start changing the speed statistics despite this, I will report you.
Click to expand...
CGMs are referring to all calcs and in the last thread Dalesean specifically talked about Draken's one and I'm pretty sure in the calc stacking one at least 2 cgm talked about Izana's one
 
Zefra3011 said:
CGMs are referring to all calcs and in the last thread Dalesean specifically talked about Draken's one and I'm pretty sure in the calc stacking one at least 2 cgm talked about Izana's one
Click to expand...
No. All of them refer to the ones that hide calculations, not the bullet outpacing ones.
 
CorbinMLG said:
@Syncornize: None of the messages are about the bullet outspeeding calculations, which the verse mainly scales to. If you start changing the speed statistics despite this, I will report you.
Click to expand...
the discussion was about all calculations and was specified in the context. The thread moderetors have responded by saying they are no good. if the links of complaints I have shown are not enough I can retrieve the others to make a " complete circle" of all the calocles. after saying this, do what you want. I told the Thread Mod that I was going to edit the page and he didn't have a problem with it
 
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