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TOKYO REVENGERS CRT: THE IZANA KUROKAWA CONCLUSION.
- Thread starter Arnoldstone18
- Start date
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- #82
Youre not even acknowledging @MorrisHatesYou at all. Y'know, the person I am actually agreeing with instead of Dino because Morris is working with you.
Deagon there's nothing we are discussing here that has to do with the rule.
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Literally have
Not sure but the current discussion is pretty circular so I'll just have to do my own calc on monday, we did have Viott come and comment a couple of times without permission to argue with clover
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You're the only person IIRC that has the prerequisites. And we discussed and specifically rejected Dino being an exception when he asked, so I am confused as to how this thread is predominantly CGMs arguing with 3 people who don't meet the requirements.
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Also since I’m here, I might as well check out the current calc that’s being proposed. Though I know Dale’s planning on making his own calc, so I plan to weigh the two against each other and see which one I think makes more sense
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Ant gave 3 users (Dinozxd, MorrisHatesYou, and CorbinMLG) permission for this thread specifically as long as staff monitored the thread to insure that no rule violations occur.
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I recommend waiting for Dale's version of the calc so we can compare it to the calc presented by @MorrisHatesYou and the other calc presented by @Dinozxd
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I lost notos, didn't know
mastrad1234
She/Her- 266
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For me I agree with this one, this feat actually looking clear right now izana move after bullet.
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No one's really debating whether or not he moved...
Anywho @Antvasima @CloverDragon03 I've corrected everything and made my own blog for the feat.
We can get a couple CGMs to look at mine vs the OPs and determine which is best to use
Izana saves Kakucho (version 1 million)
vsbattles.fandom.com
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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Can you tell about the differences between the ends? The low and the mid end somewhat fit in the current scaling I would guess. Can you talk about the differences?No one's really debating whether or not he moved...
Anywho @Antvasima @CloverDragon03 I've corrected everything and made my own blog for the feat.
We can get a couple CGMs to look at mine vs the OPs and determine which is best to use
Izana saves Kakucho (version 1 million)
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What about them are you confused about?
Cause otherwise the differences are pretty clear since its just the distance
MorrisHatesYou
Username Only- 583
- 350
My phone battery is 8% atm, and we still haven't talked about if Izana run the entire distance or not, which I was planning to tackle.
I'll be back soon.
I'll be back soon.
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High end: Doesn't take the distance between POV and Kisaki's head and his leg length (as he fell down). Izana's arm movement also looks more than 90 degrees.
Mid end: Uses an anime only panel, the panel also suggests Kisaki moved multiple meters as even in the high end panel Kisaki is directly infront of Mikey and a meter away, in the mid end though he's way further and is to the right of Mikey.
Low end: Directly contradicts every single other manga panel that dictates the scene. Mikey, Kakucho and Izana are always seen directly in front of Kisaki but this scene shows kisaki to the side.
I'm planing on making a blog using the anime distances which will also not go aganist the "at least 1.5 meters between them" rule this blog suggests. I'm also also gonna use the panel which actually shows the direct distance between Kisaki and Kakucho, rather than aftermath panels.
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Y'all are gonna give me a headache ngl.
I suppose we can talk about this in-depth.
The distances used are different. Its a heavy point of contention which would be debated on soon.
I have a lot of thoughts about the calc, many of which are not good so I will have to drop from a neutral stance to actively take part in the debate.
I see Dino has already expressed his opinions, so you guys feel free to debate, im currently very busy irl but i can pop in and out whenever possible. Just remember to be respectful and try not to get frustrated with yourselves.
I suppose we can talk about this in-depth.
The distances used are different. Its a heavy point of contention which would be debated on soon.
I have a lot of thoughts about the calc, many of which are not good so I will have to drop from a neutral stance to actively take part in the debate.
I see Dino has already expressed his opinions, so you guys feel free to debate, im currently very busy irl but i can pop in and out whenever possible. Just remember to be respectful and try not to get frustrated with yourselves.
MorrisHatesYou
Username Only- 583
- 350
The high end is wrong because you should've taken distance to Kisaki's leg in account.No one's really debating whether or not he moved...
Anywho @Antvasima @CloverDragon03 I've corrected everything and made my own blog for the feat.
We can get a couple CGMs to look at mine vs the OPs and determine which is best to use
Izana saves Kakucho (version 1 million)
Mid end is badly animated, it's an anime version of the high end.
Low end just doesn't make sense since Kakucho ran towards Kisaki in a straight line but that panel in question says "no".
Also like I previously mentioned, by the time Izana completed his movement, the bullet doesn't doesn't reach the screen. So, 0.64m should always be subtracted since that's the distance between Kakucho's face and the edge of the screen.
The main problem:
The panels during the feat is happening (both the manga and the anime) and the panels after everything happened contradicts each other.
However, I would argue that using the panels during the feat is happening is better since we get the direct distance between the Gun and Kakucho.
The bird's eye view just doesn't make any sense because like I mentioned, Kisaki and Kakucho aren't in the same line anymore.
In the other one, we didn't even get to see the direct distance between the guys, let alone the direct distance between the gun and Kakucho.
Are we seriously gonna use the distance which had to be derived from different panels, over the ones where we get a direct shot ?
The panels are inconsistent. Wakui guy is not very consistent in general, but to say a distance that had to be derived from two panels, where everything already happened, where they were all already on the ground is more accurate than a distance where we can find the direct distance between the gun and the guy, just doesn't sound right with me.
That's my take on that.
Once this gets resolved, I'll try to address Izana running from his starting point after the gun was fired.
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I honestly believe Kisaki moved from his spot after the feat because there is a panel where he is no longer in shooting position and seems dazed.
The only argument provided is that its "head canon" when the opposing assumption isn't equally as head canon for some reason. Either way, shots after the feat that literally anything off panel could happen to skew pixel scaling values are to not be used to make calcs to give desirable results.
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You've had several CGMs disagree that the full run is not applicable here as its of screen and all of izanas movement would've been blocked by kakucho, you can't definitively say he was or wasn't already moving from the manga but the anime already had him coming up from behind kakucho as the first shot was fired so more likely than not they're showing he was already running after him
You you're blatantly headcanoning with him moving back from falling so I'm not even gonna address that and nope he moved his arms 90 degrees
Mid end is also the same deal where I've provided numerous scans that clearly show what you've said isn't the case so nothing here again
Low end, is once again also the same deal where everything aside from the same 2 panels yall used clearly shows the bullet's travel was at least 1.5m by the end
Literally the same deal as before and you can't just say no its actually poorly animated that's a non argument here and not worth my time. Not even sure what you're in about with that last part
Kisaki is quite literally in the same position you can clearly tell usung the wide shot and the numerous panels that show the angle kisaki and Mikey are at, Kisaki would be behind Mikey in this case and the anime also supports this so especially so you claiming its an animation error is false as they correctly represented something consistent throughout numerous manga panels
Once again this is a non arguement
@Deagonx since Ant is gonna be in vacation can I rely on you to help out here with moderation, also any staff really that can keep this from going like 1000 pages that you'd want if you're not available
Also lemme ping some some CGMs to review these arguments, the OPs blog, and my own blog.
@CloverDragon03 @M3X_2.0 @DMUA @SeijiSetto
Izana saves Kakucho (version 1 million)
vsbattles.fandom.com
Here's my blog
Serlock_Holmes
He/Him- 3,651
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I understand nothing regarding the feats, which I'm sure cgms will more properly evaluate. Just please don't turn this into a fruitless thead as this topic is better solved now.
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Just have the CGMs assess the calc and we can move on. The whole reason for the rule was to avoid you guys being forced to engage with a never ending argument from the verse supporters, I think Ants decision was well intended but ultimately rendered it moot so I'm going to ask that we go a different direction with this.
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Okay then I'll wait for the CGMs I pinged
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What? I never even suggested that in the first place? Kisaki literally falls down which means he has to extend his legs which is a distance that you need to subtract.
?
What scans are you talking about exactly? The existence of the panel you used literally contradicts with the whole feat.
I wasn't even talking about that. The birds eye view shot literally contradicts the fact that Kakucho runs in a straight line and how Izana comes up behind him which makes him on the same straight line as Kakucho as well?
Answering to some arguments would actually speed up the process. I don't understand how any of the arguments that were made in your argument debunk any of my arguments when you literally got 90 percent of my arguments wrong.also any staff really that can keep this from going like 1000 pages that you'd want if you're not available
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If ya actually went into my blog and read it instead of just seeing a slower end result you'd have seen numerous scans got all of this.
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In your own scan you can clearly see izana did not start with his arm fully extended straight ahead in front of him and then bring it back to push the man
You can see he starts his push not with his even extended in front of him, he starts pushing from kakucho's back arm not even from his center mass so if you really want to be honest its even less than 90 degree arm movement in the scans you showed
Anywho I already made my points and have all my scans so I'm going to be waiting for CGMs to determine what's best and will not be responding here until then
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- Thread starter
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Alright Dale, its you and me now... The supporters would have to relay information through me and I will let you guys know what is being suggested by the supporters. None of you guys should respond further unless absolutely necessary. @Deagonx do not rush this discussion, just make sure to delete comments that add nothing to the thread so things can stay civil.
At the moment we will discuss the manner of Izana pushing Kakucho.
In the anime, Izana pushes Kakucho at a 90 degree angle as @Dalesean027 correctly outlined. However, this is different from the manga which implies Kakucho was spun and thrown to the side rather than pushed. If we look at the manga shot, Kakucho is shown face backwards and more violently thrown to the side. This type of shot can't be obtained by a simple push. Izana must have grabbed Kakucho's right side (possibly right shoulder) and spun him to his left side for that panel shot display. This makes further sense because Izana is coming from directly behind Kakucho for a more complex push to get Kakucho out of the way and not from his side for a simple 90 deg push.This means the arm movement is greater than 90 degrees but not more than 180 degrees.
@Dalesean027 what are your thoughts?
TOPIC 1: ARM MOVEMENT
Note: I will treat the manga as a primary source and anime as a secondary source for clarification purposes.
At the moment we will discuss the manner of Izana pushing Kakucho.
In the anime, Izana pushes Kakucho at a 90 degree angle as @Dalesean027 correctly outlined. However, this is different from the manga which implies Kakucho was spun and thrown to the side rather than pushed. If we look at the manga shot, Kakucho is shown face backwards and more violently thrown to the side. This type of shot can't be obtained by a simple push. Izana must have grabbed Kakucho's right side (possibly right shoulder) and spun him to his left side for that panel shot display. This makes further sense because Izana is coming from directly behind Kakucho for a more complex push to get Kakucho out of the way and not from his side for a simple 90 deg push.This means the arm movement is greater than 90 degrees but not more than 180 degrees.
@Dalesean027 what are your thoughts?
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I think we can just wait in the other CGMs and yes you can violently knock someone down who is running unprepared from a push to the side even just shoving them from a 90 degree as izana did.
Now arnold please follow Deagons decision and wait on the CGMs to come give their opinions. You yourself aren't above the decisions made by staff and neither am I so we're going to both wait for commentd from the CGMs
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- #109
Yes, this is true but I also mentioned that the subject is spun and facing backwards which doesn't happen with a simple push to the side.
If Izana is really coming from directly behind Kakucho, a 90 degree push would be physically impossible as well.
I don't mind if you disagree, but I still want to ask if you agree?
I do not wish to wait and rush this without a discussion, I want us to talk about this. Like we used to do for my previous calc back then outside of TR.
Besides this way, CGMs can make a well informed decision.
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Its not really rushed at all, this has already gone on for 3 pages (nearly 4 now) for what should be something quite simple
You see he clearly pushes him when he's at his side, manga also shows this. It's very much so not impossible to do what he did nor to get that kind of violent push on someone who you shove who's unprepared for it and sprinting. This ain't even a vs battles thing atp that's just common sense a recipe for a very bad fall
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- #111
A CRT like this shouldn't end in 3 pages. Its not a simple discussion considering all the nuances in this thread. We are simply clarifying them.
You didn't tackle my points about Izana being directly behind Kakucho and not at his side. If you believe Izana was at his side in the anime then Izana really did slightly more than we think to save Kakucho. The arm movement isn't a heavy point for me, I just wanted to see if i could change your mind, 90 degrees it is, moving on to the next topic.
Ive updated the OP
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TOPIC 2: SOURCE OF DISTANCE
Most of us have agreed to use the on panel distances alone,
@Dalesean027. Originally you were okay with using distances from the time of the feat. Why are you now comfortable with using distances from after the feat? Wouldn't that skew pixel scaling results? It certainly does skew the values in your calc and here is why:
Using Bird Eye View from after the feat
Kisaki might have moved his body an undeterminable distance soon after he found out Izana saved Kakucho. The reason I used the word "undeterminable" is due to the fact that his lower body was not shown in that panel i linked and we don't know what he did while the focus was shifted away from him. Therefore one of two things could've happened, Kisaki would've either moved multiple steps backwards or not moved at all before falling on the ground. You can't ignore the possibility of one or the other, any solid stance taken would be equally as "head canon".
With that possibility of Kisaki moving or staying in position in mind, look at the bird's eye view your calc uses. It is from after the feat had taken place and after the panel i sent of Kisaki's body in a different position from shooting position one page afteer. The bird's eye view also shows that Kisaki was no longer in the same straight line path Kakucho and Izana were running which supports the fact that Kisaki moved a bit before falling to the ground. The skewed trajectory alone makes the use of the bird's eye view invalid even if you disagree there is a possibility Kisaki moved from his shooting spot.
This is a much better shot (Albeit harder to pixel scale but ill try) because it is as clear as the bird's eye view and it is from prior the feat ever happened. And to top it off, Kisaki is in a straight line path with Kakucho and Izana. Kisaki is also in that same exact shooting position till after the feat,
This makes the Low End version of your calc, invalid.
The Problem With Using Panels, Each From Seperate Chapters, Multiple Chapters After The Feat
Aside from the fact that the shots you used are from multiple chapters after the feat (Did the anime cover multiple chapters in one episode or something?)
Much like the case of the possibility Kisaki might've moved a bit, we know for sure that Mikey definitely moves around throughout multiple chapters. The distance between Mikey and Izana here (Chapter 177) is completely different from the distance between Mikey and Izana here (Chapter 179). Why? look at all of these panel that exists between those two shots (all from chapter 179). Mikey is not standing by Izana otherwise he would be in the same panel with this dude Rindou, meaning Mikey is constantly walking around at different points in time. he obviously walked back to a position closer to Kisaki.
These movements here there and back immediately invalidates the high and mid end of the calc, hence why its safer to use shots from chapters closer to the feat. Maybe if you used this shot, you wouldve made a more accurate end because that shot is closer to the feat and this shot you used.
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Its not a point to tackle my guy we're literally shown it in the anime and manga, I've already shown as much
Literally provided scans enough to show he doesn't move in my blog so this is such a non point
Same deal as before we know how much Kisaki moved the anime and manga make it clear he sat in place from the scans I've already provided in my blog
most images you sent are broken links and besides that you've clearly ignored numerous panels also once again provided in my blog that in fact show Mikey directly next to them
All in all these are bunch of non points and you're doing a lot of talking with no real substance so I'm just not going to argue anymore since my blog already covers all this with the scans and explanations provided
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OPs calc
vsbattles.fandom.com
My Calc
vsbattles.fandom.com
@Agnaa @DMUA @CloverDragon03 @Therefir @SeijiSetto
Can we get input here in determining which is best to use and an evaluation of my blog
Izana saves Kakucho (REVISED)
vsbattles.fandom.com
My Calc
Izana saves Kakucho (version 1 million)
vsbattles.fandom.com
@Agnaa @DMUA @CloverDragon03 @Therefir @SeijiSetto
Can we get input here in determining which is best to use and an evaluation of my blog
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- Thread starter
- #115
I will go ahead and replace all the broken links in my argument with imgur links
You did not actually prove Kisaki did not move with any scan provided in that blog. You can't
All you did was send scans that Kisaki is at a certain distance using every scan after the feat.
If you insist on using these clearly invalid distances, I will go ahead and make a blog myself to replace the calc in the OP.
edit: Low end will use bird's eye view and high end using a better scan
You did not actually prove Kisaki did not move with any scan provided in that blog. You can't
All you did was send scans that Kisaki is at a certain distance using every scan after the feat.
If you insist on using these clearly invalid distances, I will go ahead and make a blog myself to replace the calc in the OP.
edit: Low end will use bird's eye view and high end using a better scan
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Now Arnold be real here....like be 100% real
Exact quote from the blog complete with a screenshot of exactly there that also dhows highlighted portions that hold multiple scans. But hey apparently you can't prove anything right? Mind you the only relevant movement kisaki has after shooting them both was simply sitting in place in shock with his feet still planted at the same position. Why do we know this I wonder...hmm maybe because it was the only relevant movement kisaki did so saying otherwise is complete bs especially when I've linked the scene in both the anime and manga.
But no what's most egregious and disingenuous of all is the entire notion that yall have came up with that kisaki had any further movment to begin with and where the logic of that lies. The only reason that yall even tried to argue that he had this supposed extra movement to begin with is because of the numerous shots that clearly contradict the calculated values yall came up with in trying to blatantly wank this feat. And yes wank. I've no problem with being blunt here because you're genuinely a disappointment to me for even trying to pursue an argument this disingenuous. The logic that kisaki moved at all outside of the movement we saw him actually have (which I've provided scans for that show he hasn't moved from where he was standing with his feet when he sat) is literally born about just because yall otherwise would have had the your calculated values clearly go against the visuals presented, its logic born about by trying to take the highest end and shorten the distance the lowest you can get for your hypersonic ratings to work using visuals that are very very consistently shown to be contradictory to the over half a dozen scans I have posted in my blog to show positioning and the kisaki sitting scene. Without using the same 1 or 2 scans the both yall have shown its very consistent visually that kisaki is bare minimum 1.5m away from izana's final position and that's with his arm fully extended and the gun in his hand, its only when you try and use the shot of kakucho running at kisaki that you run into said problem and try and work your way out of it contradicting numerous visuals that show a larger distance by saying well kisaki had off screen movement instead of just fessing up to using a contradictory scan to get the highest results.
Yeah I'm waiting for other CGMs at this point. I don't want to even entertain your ass anymore after you tried that.
@Deagonx I'd appreciate your help here atp since no CGMs seem to want to respond to my pings here, would you be willing to give a try for me so we can get this resolved
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Bro, it's on you to actually prove he moved. The thing is, we don't see him move back. Sure the distances might be fucky, but so what? They aren't THAT fucky and given the medium, it's entirely likely, and honestly, probably the case, that the author just didn't draw shit perfectly in every panel because who actually gives a shit about this except some nerds on the internet?
It's pretty clear he didn't really move, if he fell back, his feet would still be in the same place as when he was standing because that's how falling works. He sure as hell didn't jump back, and if he crawled back, you'd think they'd draw some lines in the snow to convey that right?
The burden isn't on dale to prove he didn't move, but on you to prove he DID move. And while I usually go with calcing the feat AS it happens, if EVERY panel after that short instance shows a larger distance, I'm going to assume THAT'S the intended distance imo and the former is the odd one out.
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Dalesean, I will refrain from replying to your arguments because the manner of your post is clearly making me out to look bad.
I will simply focus on making a blog of my own using this scan (the most accurate scan which shows Kisaki standing up and pointing the gun) and the bird's eye view since I can't prove Kisaki did not move (neither can you prove he didn't move) for comparison because to be frank with you, your source of scans for your mid and high end are very disingenuous and misleading and I have given you the benefit of a doubt that you simply made a mistake when gathering scans. You can't do shit like that and get away with it.
Once I am done, I will help you contact staff to wrap this up.
I will simply focus on making a blog of my own using this scan (the most accurate scan which shows Kisaki standing up and pointing the gun) and the bird's eye view since I can't prove Kisaki did not move (neither can you prove he didn't move) for comparison because to be frank with you, your source of scans for your mid and high end are very disingenuous and misleading and I have given you the benefit of a doubt that you simply made a mistake when gathering scans. You can't do shit like that and get away with it.
Once I am done, I will help you contact staff to wrap this up.
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That's the thing, Dale says he doesn't move like there isn't a panel where Kisaki moves with only his upper body shown suggesting there might be some movements involved. I am not asking him to prove that he did not move, I am saying that the distance between Kisaki and Izana clearly grew which strengthens the possibility that Izana moved one or two steps before falling.
There are also more pressing matters than Kisaki moving, ill show you as soon as I fix the broken link in this post.
Also thank you for coming.
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But like, DID it though? Yeah it grew, but that could very well just be due to inconsistency and the author not giving a **** (they 100% dont).
In which case what's actually more consistent? If every panel afterward shows a larger distance, would that not implicate the author's desired intent more?
That's the issue here, we 100% can't say that he moved, like it's actually unironically nothing but a "guess", at absolute BEST, this would give you a "possibly" rating, and that's being very, very, generous as the wiki for the most part doesn't do that. We need reason to think he stepped back, but nothing actually implies it beyond some inconsistent distances between shots and if he fell back like I've seen said over a dozen times now, well, his feet would still be in the same spot. Which trust me, that shit is so common you wouldn't believe
