HST Showdown - (Round 6 - Villainous Façades)

[EldemadeDityjon]

I feel like this has been explained to you 15 times at this point. But Sasuke, Itachi, and Kabuto have all shown the ability to genjutsu Edo Tenseis.

Only thing which worked on Edo was MS Genjustu & Kabuto Senjustu feel free to send the scan for normal Genjustu working on souls. Burden of Proof falls on you.

the only genjutsu in the series that has that weakness is IT.

Only Genjustu worked on Edo was Senjustu amped Genjustu by Kabuto and MS. It's clearly not like all Genjustu works on souls it's headcanon without proof.

Soul reapers have this training ofc but stop acting like it’s completely in character for Soul reapers to walk around fighting with their eyes closed as if they would know what Itachis ability is and how to counter it as soon as the fight starts

Stop twisting my words I said all Soul reapers are trained to fight without their eyes open.

I just gave proof for gin capable of not opening his eyes during combat. It's your burden to prove specifically gin would directly jump into fight by opening his eyes against a enemy he just met

saying that Gin would just know to keep his eyes shut is headcanon.

It's just appeal to ignorance and your headcanon that he opens his eyes against Itachi without knowing what are Itachi Abilities

Show me proof for Gin fighting anyone with his eyes opened (beside Ichigo because Gin known all about Ichigo Abilities). He even fights Shinji with his eyes closed also even slices hiyori in half with his eyes closed.

you would need to prove it’s in character for Gin to close his eyes in combat against someone he’s never met.

You would need to prove Gin is an idiot and he would open his eyes to look at opponent even though he was vary of Aizen who also happens to have same Abilities but better and let his gaurd down.

What would be out of character is to know he’s fighting an illusions user and keep his eyes shut as if he knows the person he’s fighting’s arsenal.

Why would he need to when he can just slice him up and not to mention 13K range is still far from Itachi Genjustu range

Ephemeral works by him just pointing at you. And you looking at the finger.

So characters should look at the finger then it's not that Gin would do anyway

Itachi is capable of reading a person personality and motivations with extreme accuracy.

he’s been able to figure out a persons fears and motives with very minimal contact or knowledge of the person at all, practically just meeting him for the first time.

this isn’t even to mention the sharingan ability to read a persons memories.

he could easily figure out if Izanami would be effective against Gin. Tho I do think he would opt into Tsukuyomi first.

All this doesn't matter if he gets beated down by Shankar and Gin. Also It's not an easy feat for Itachi he needed to fight Kabuto for long time before Activating Izanami so stop making it look like instant spam.

He can make time for himself with clones, substitution, shuishin, AOE, Susanoo, and all his other abilities.

He never used that in character to spam 2 Izanami or MS Genjustu with Clones stop making headcanons. So you want to say Other character fights with in character set up but Itachi can fight according to your own ideas?
That's crazy.

 

[Godernet]

Only thing which worked on Edo was MS Genjustu feel free to send the scan for normal Genjustu working on souls. Burden of Proof falls on you.

Only Genjustu worked on Edo was Senjustu amped Genjustu by Kabuto and MS. It's clearly not like all Genjustu works on souls it's headcanon without proof.

You would need to prove that these three genjutsu that did affect Edos are outliers and that normally genjutsu can't affect Edos.

So far only IT has displayed any weakness like this.

That's not my burden to prove against overwhelming evidence and what we already accept on-site,

BTW here's the creator of Edo Tensei confused on why Infinite Tsukuyomi isn't affecting him. Implying its not a normal occurance for Genjutsu to not be capable of affecting Edos.

Stop twisting my words I said all Soul reapers are trained to fight without their eyes open.

I haven't twisted anything. Soul Reaper being able to fight without their eyes is cool and all but if its not a standard thing they do in character for entire fights it's meaningless.

I gave proof for gin capable of opening his eyes. It's your burden to prove specifically gin would directly jump into fight by opening his eyes against a enemy he just met

You haven't proved anything. From what it sounds like you seem to believe that Gin normally has his eyes closed and that it's not just a stylistic choice on Kubo's behalf.

Can you prove that Gin's eyes are always closed and not just slanted as an artistic choice from Kubo?

Show me proof for Gin fighting anyone with his eyes opened (beside Ichigo because Gin known all about Ichigo Abilities). He even fights Shinji with his eyes closed also even slices hiyori in half with his eyes closed.

Again, imma need proof that his eyes are actually closed.

Why would he need to when he can just slice him up and not to mention 13K range is still far from Itachi Genjustu range.

this is making the assumption that Gin could attack him successfully from that range when Itachi has like 8 abilities to block, avoid, and keep attacks from Gin at a distance. plus his enhanced perception and analytical prediction would make it easy to avoid attacks while coming up with a plan.

So characters should look at the finger then it's not that Gin would do anyway.

Can you prove that Gin would never look at Itachi's finger if he pointed at him?

All this doesn't matter if he gets beated down by Shankar and Gin. Also It's not an easy feat for Itachi he needed to fight Kabuto for long time before Activating Izanami

Izanami is activated by a pattern of 3 and takes nowhere near as long as you're implying.

so stop making it look like instant spam.

I've never said that he would spam Izanami. But he can use it which is an additional wincon for him.

the problem you seem to be having is that you're trying to argue for an absolute concrete outcome when there isn't one.

In a fight like this, a lot of factors are at play and a lot of things could be outside of our expectations. If a character has more wincons than another it's more likely that they win more times than not.

And rn it's looking like Itachi has a lot more wincons than Shanks or Gin.

He never used that in character to spam 2 Izanami

idk where you thought I said Izanami spam. Bros imagining things.

or MS Genjustu with Clones stop making headcanons.

he used exploding clones against Kakashi and regular ones against opponents in his novel. stop making absolute statements without reading his profile.

Also, Itachi is a very cautious and creative person. He will use anything and everything in his arsenal if he needs to for a win. It wouldn't take him long to read Gin's fighting style and personality traits either with his Extraordinary Genius and Sharingan.

So you want to say Other character fights with in character set up by Itachi can fight according to your own ideas?

Every time I bring up an ability I reference the fight it took place in and why it's a strong possibility.

You tried to argue that Gin would shut his eyes when the fight starts as if he would know Itachi will genjutsu him if he looks his direction when he's never done anything like that.

That's crazy.

frankly, I think arguing with you on this is a waste of time since you seem to have made up your mind, have ignored the context in my arguments, and regularly misinterpret my words, not to mention you haven't dropped any actual proof for any of your arguments/claims. And a lot of your arguments have been addressed by others and are kinda ass as wincons.

So if anything go read Itachi's profile and let me know if you need clarification on anything. And lmk if you find any proof for your arguments.

I'm not opposed to changing my vote if the arguments are actually good.

I'll be back later.

Good night

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You would need to prove that these three genjutsu that did affect Edos are outliers and that normally genjutsu can't affect Edos.

So far only IT has displayed any weakness like this.

That's not my burden to prove against overwhelming evidence and what we already accept on-site,

BTW the here's the creator of Edo Tensei confused on why Infinite Tsukuyomi isn't affecting him. Implying its not a normal occurance for Genjutsu to not be capable of affecting Edos.

There are other characters who can use normal Genjustu you can grab a scan where they affecting Edo. I will concede but this scan doesn't prove your premise.

I haven't twisted anything. Soul Reaper being able to fight without their eyes is cool and all but if its not a standard thing they do in character for entire fights it's meaningless.

Except for Him does that in character so you should prove he opens his eyes without analysing Itachi skills. Especially there is also Shanks so he would just use him as bait to lure out Itachi Techniques.

You haven't proved anything. From what it sounds like you seem to believe that Gin normally has his eyes closed and that it's not just a stylistic choice on Kubo's behalf.

Can you prove that Gin's eyes are always closed and not just slanted?

Again, imma need proof that his eyes are actually closed.

Not my burden when I already gave instance where Gin has shown to open his eyes during Ichigo fight and closed his eyes during all other instance which already proved my stance regarding his eyes always being shut 90% of time.

this is making the assumption that Gin could attack him successfully from that range when Itachi has like 8 abilities to block, avoid, and keep attacks from Gin at a distance.

Gin has teleportation Technique he can sneak inside the Sussano and use his Bankai in an close range and it's not my burden to prove when it's just you should appeal to ignorance.

I already gave feats for Hisagi capable of fighting without his eyes opening where it was stated every squad member before passing the school gets that training.

Can you prove that Gin would never look at Itachi's finger if he pointed at him?

Not my burden when I never claimed it. My point was him not opening his eyes.

Izanami is activated by a pattern of 3 and takes nowhere near as long as you're implying.

He needed Sasuke and him to fight Kabuto for some time before using Izanami in other words it does takes time and additionally I don't see shanks and Gin sitting still. Not like Itachi has his brother this time. Additionally I don't see Itachi having infinite energy to keep spamming shadow clones. It's obvious shadow clones chakra gets divided means they will be weaker than normal

I've never said that he would spam Izanami. But he can use it which is an additional wincon for him.

It's a Wincon Against one character sure but he is fighting 2 characters at once . So it's useless unless you prove which character he is going to use it agaisnt

the problem you seem to be having is that you're trying to argue for an absolute concrete outcome when there isn't one.

Never did. I was just giving counters for Genjustu.

In a fight like this, a lot of factors are at play and a lot of things could be outside of our expectations. If a character has more wincons that another it's more likely that they win more times than not.

Yes Wincons without having counters but if they have some way to counter it it's not a Wincons

And rn it's looking like Itachi has a lot more wincons than Shanks or Gin.

He doesn't his Genjustu can be countered many ways only thing which is dangerous is Izanami and Shinsui eyes but it's not like Itachi spams both without thinking twice and analysing his opponents.

idk where you thought I said Izanami spam. Bros imagining things.

he used this against Kakashi and against opponents in his novel. stop making absolute statements without reading his profile.

Also, Itachi is a very cautious and creative person. He will use anything and everything in his arsenal if he needs to for a win. It wouldn't take him long to read Gin's fighting style and personality traits either with his Extraordinary Genius and Sharingan.

Every time I bring up an ability I reference the fight it took place in and why it's a strong possibility.

Gin himself is an Genus of his own who was able to identify KS secrets and weakness so I don't see much difference Itachi can do here to gin. Gin can do the same thing.

You tried to argue that Gin would shut his eyes when the fight starts because he knows Itachi will genjutsu him if he looks his direction when he's never done anything like that.

Never said Gin knows about Itachi Abilities. I am talking about Gin knows about Aizen abilities and he would obviously vary of his opponents having similar kind of deadly Abilities. He was not a stupid he was able to work under Aizen and deceive him even without getting out under KS.

Even even Toshiro fought Aizen Gin was beside him and not affected in other words there were many times he could have seen it but he was sure not.

frankly, I think arguing with you on this is a waste of time since you seem to have made up your mind, have ignored the context in my arguments, and regularly misinterpret my words, not to mention you haven't dropped any actual proof for any of your arguments/claims. And a lot of your arguments have been addressed by others and are kinda ass as wincons.

So if anything go read Itachi's profile and let me know if you need clarification on anything. And lmk if you find any proof for your arguments.

I'm not opposed to changing my vote if the arguments are actually good.

Good night

I should be one saying this because you constantly Ignoring & asking same thing regarding Gins eyes which was already clarified to you by many people here. Also why he doens't opens his eyes in the battle normally.

I also can say the same it seems you just made up your mind and thinking Gin would open his eyes just so Itachi can spam Genjustu. But it's completely out of character for gin to do that.

---

Let me break it down if Itachi used his normal Genjustu which can be broken down by Zanpackto spirits.

There are 2 people fighting Itachi so Izanami is no no and even if he uses It will take time and we don't see whom he will use it against.

Shinsui eyes are dangerous but same thing we don't know Against whom he would spam that. Beside it's a one time use same as Izanami. So he needs to analyse the situation before Using that.

Clones would reduce Itachi AP and Durability. He doens't have sage mode like Naruto to get any amps anyway.

Itachi doesn't have 13K range even if Gin opens his eyes I don't see Itachi putting gin under MS Genjustu on that range

Gin also has teleportation he can sneak into Itachi Sussano i don't see it blocking Teleportation.

 

[Deceived3596]

Itachi wouldn't be using regular Genjutsu in this fight, he generally uses MS Genjutsu, which does have feats of affecting entirely spiritual beings like Tailed Beast. I don't get this constant questioning of Itachi's ability to interact with souls with his Genjutsu when it's been explained multiple times he can, in fact, interact with souls with his Genjutsu.

Even baseline Genjutsu can interact with spiritual beings as it uses Ying-Release for its applications. With Yin-Release representing the spiritual aspect of Chakra. Spiritual energy can interact with spiritual entities, just like how physical energy can interact with physical entities.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Itachi wouldn't be using regular Genjutsu in this fight, he generally uses MS Genjutsu, which does have feats of affecting entirely spiritual beings like Tailed Beast. I don't get this constant questioning of Itachi's ability to interact with souls with his Genjutsu when it's been explained multiple times he can, in fact, interact with souls with his Genjutsu.

Some other guy brought up that Itachi Using normal Genjustu for some reason. I do agree his MS Genjustu working on souls. I don't have any problems with that.

If he doesn't use normal Genjustu that's Also fine.

 

[Eminiteable]

BA Hao is just juiced Hao. It works under the same conditions of fear manipulation but has far more potency and an added effect.

That's even whats described on the Haki page I pulled from.

If you have some extra evidence that contradicts it please present it instead of just saying I'm wrong.

The statement says he does it by controlling his presence or some shit.

Just like how Hao infusion doesn't require the opponent to be afraid for the AP amp to function the effects of BA Hao don't correlate to basic hao.

 

[speedster352]

Itachi wouldn't be using regular Genjutsu in this fight, he generally uses MS Genjutsu, which does have feats of affecting entirely spiritual beings like Tailed Beast. I don't get this constant questioning of Itachi's ability to interact with souls with his Genjutsu when it's been explained multiple times he can, in fact, interact with souls with his Genjutsu.

Even baseline Genjutsu can interact with spiritual beings as it uses Ying-Release for its applications. With Yin-Release representing the spiritual aspect of Chakra. Spiritual energy can interact with spiritual entities, just like how physical energy can interact with physical entities.

But for the sake of this argument, Itachi can't see or sense gin because of layered invisibility nd resistance to esp and can't counter his bankai range spam that phases trough things so the susano is useless. Also, Gin is more of a background character he would just watch and see them use their abilities and wait until one of them wins then uses Bankai or he watches them fight and then Bankai range spam. Again the strongest genjutsu in the series didn't work on the edo tensei.

 

[AppleLord]

Itachi still solos. Gin doesn’t need to open his eyes like how Naruto was caught under GG with his eyes closed.

 

[speedster352]

Itachi still solos. Gin doesn’t need to open his eyes like how Naruto was caught under GG with his eyes closed.

Actually, he saw Itachi finger. Also are you really a bleach supporter?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Itachi still solos. Gin doesn’t need to open his eyes like how Naruto was caught under GG with his eyes closed.

Never happened

 

[Godernet]

The statement says he does it by controlling his presence or some shit.

Just like how Hao infusion doesn't require the opponent to be afraid for the AP amp to function the effects of BA Hao don't correlate to basic hao.

I mean so far we don’t have any concrete that BA Hao is completely fundamentally different from regular Hao it should still work the same fundamentally but with its added abilities and superior potency

It controls your presence by subduing the persons will with Shanks own will.

which should still be cancelled out via superior Conq Haki/Willpower/Mental resistances to Shanks.

 

[Eminiteable]

It controls your presence by subduing the persons will with Shanks own will.

which should still be cancelled out via superior Conq Haki/Willpower/Mental resistances to Shanks.

It works by controlling the user's own "sign of presence", not the other person's.

 

[Godernet]

It works by controlling the user's own "sign of presence", not the other person's.

Wait so it’s not nulling a targets sensory abilities but making the user impossible to find?

 

[Eminiteable]

Wait so it’s not nulling a targets sensory abilities but making the user impossible to find?

No it literally says he stops them from seeing into the future after it just describes it via him controlling his own "sign of presence" or whatever.

 

[AppleLord]

Never happened

[ISPOILER]Ephemeral GG[/ISPOILER]

 

[Kidkinsey]

"Gin will sneak inside the sussano" that's a ride for 1 buddy that's not happening lmao

But for the sake of this argument, Itachi can't see or sense gin because of layered invisibility nd resistance to esp and can't counter his bankai range spam that phases trough things so the susano is useless. Also, Gin is more of a background character he would just watch and see them use their abilities and wait until one of them wins then uses Bankai or he watches them fight and then Bankai range spam. Again the strongest genjutsu in the series didn't work on the edo tensei.

There's literally a specific reason why IT didn't work on the edo. We KNOW genjutsu works on souls that's not a issue here

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

"Gin will sneak inside the sussano" that's a ride for 1 buddy that's not happening lmao

Mind sharing the proof for Sussano blocking Teleportation

 

[Godernet]

No it literally says he stops them from seeing into the future after it just describes it via him controlling his own "sign of presence" or whatever.

Itachi's analytical improvement is muscle movements and his enhanced vision/perception, not Precog so I'm not sure if controlling his own sign of presence would prevent Itachi from reading him.

Not to mention Hao wouldn't work on Itachi to begin with for reasons I went over earlier.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Mind sharing the proof for Sussano blocking Teleportation

It can't block teleportation but how is Gin teleporting inside there's literally no room for him lol

 

[LordGinSama]

Itachi's analytical improvement is muscle movements

Kenbunshoku haki users have X-ray vision, I'm pretty sure they can see muscle movement and what what memory serves me there's a databook statement regarding "body movement." or something with Kenbunshoku.

 

[Godernet]

Kenbunshoku haki users have X-ray vision, I'm pretty sure they can see muscle movement and what what memory serves me there's a databook statement regarding "body movement." or something with Kenbunshoku.

eh sure I guess,

but even then you can't null the Sharingan without superior mental potency to its resistances.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It can't block teleportation but how is Gin teleporting inside there's literally no room for him lol

Sussano can hold atleast 2 people what do you mean by it has no room?

 

[Epiccheev]

Gin teleports inside his Akatsuki cloak and things get awkward.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Gin teleports inside his Akatsuki cloak and things get awkward.

Gin isn't Orochimaru

 

[Kidkinsey]

Sussano can hold atleast 2 people what do you mean by it has no room?

The perfect and complete version with legs yeah

 

[LordGinSama]

but even then you can't null the Sharingan without superior mental potency to its resistances.

Its not mental based or based on fear. It's based on the domination of wills for Hao and I don't believe it's been insinuated that Observation killing is based on the manipulation of fear or the mind.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The perfect and complete version with legs yeah

Is there anywhere stated only perfect Sussano can hold 2 people. Also from what I can tell from Kabuto fight Itachi Sussano doesn't protect him from all angles. Only thing that protects him is Yata mirror. Kabuto slices him even though his sussano was active.

If I am wrong can you share his sussano protecting him without yata mirror defence and as far as I can tell it's only one angle that gets protected attacks from backside still Works

 

[Deceived3596]

But for the sake of this argument, Itachi can't see or sense gin because of layered invisibility nd resistance to esp and can't counter his bankai range spam that phases trough things so the susano is useless. Also, Gin is more of a background character he would just watch and see them use their abilities and wait until one of them wins then uses Bankai or he watches them fight and then Bankai range spam. Again the strongest genjutsu in the series didn't work on the edo tensei.

Gin doesn't have layered invisibility, that's deactivated as explained in the OP, and I don't get the idea that Gin has a resistance against ESP, unless you're referencing his Reiatsu Concealing Cloak, if you're then Gin doesn't have that either. The key we're using in this fight is FKT Gin. He doesn't have that as standard equipment during the arc, he only arguably has it as standard equipment during the TBTP Arc and Isshin's flashback with White.

Itachi can counteract Gin's bankai range through multiple abilities and strategies, abilities like Shushin would allow Itachi to cross the distance between the two through a couple steps, Itachi could also use Shadow Clones as distractions, granting him time to continually shorten the distance between the two until gets line of sight with Gin to place him under a Genjutsu, which Gin doesn't have any notable resistances to. Why exactly would Gin's bankai phase through Itachi's Susanoo?.

Itachi acts exactly the same way as Gin, alongside his higher intelligence, why would Shanks and Itachi be the two fighting against each other while Gin stands back and evaluates when it's more in-character for Gin to attack his opponents head on than Itachi?. It's more likely that Itachi would be the one standing back and evaluating all the abilities, fighting style and quirks about each character, not Gin.

Itachi doesn't have Infinite Tsukuyomi, so that doesn't matter, MS Genjutsu has feats of affecting purely spiritual beings like Tailed Beast, Gin will be affected by Itachi's Genjutsu, regardless if he's a soul or not.

 

[LordGinSama]

why would Shanks and Itachi be the two fighting against each other.

Oh yeah that's true, both are capable of relaying information to one another (Crows and such for Itachi, Kenbunshoku for Shanks.) so if anything I'd see Shanks and Itachi trying to eliminate Gin first.

Both are very capable of advanced coordination after all.

 

[Godernet]

Its not mental based or based on fear. It's based on the domination of wills

my guy, willpower is mental fortitude, Hao Haki is willpower, It's the reason people with a strong enough mental can just resist the dominating will Haoshoku invokes onto its targets. something that's been stated several times in the series.

even on the Haki page, it's described as fear manipulation so if you believe this is inaccurate make a CRT for it.

for Hao and I don't believe it's been insinuated that Observation killing is based on the manipulation of fear or the mind.

It's how basic Hao works and there's nothing to imply it's fundamentally different.

you'd have to be able to prove that it is.

 

[LordGinSama]

No it literally says he stops them from seeing into the future after it just describes it via him controlling his own "sign of presence" or whatever.

^

 

[Majinere566]

Yeah Shanks fra

 

[Godernet]

^

thats the added effect of BA Hao, which doesn't matter because for one Itachi doesn't look into the future and it doesn't change that Hao is fundamentally Mind Manipulation which won't work on Itachi with Shank's lvl of potency.

 

[LordGinSama]

thats the added effect of BA Hao.

Exactly, so you literally cannot asset your own interpretation as if it's a fact whenever Oda hasn't even fully explain the mechanics of Killer of Observation. "Sign of presence." hasn't been implied to be based upon Hao's fear manipulation.

it doesn't change that Hao is fundamentally Mind Manipulation which won't work on Itachi with Shank's lvl of potency.

Sign of presence mechanics =/= Hao blasts mechanics.


Or are you telling me Shanks can't even hit Itachi with Advanced Hao because Itachi is resistant to mind manipulation? Not all applications of Hao are based on the domination of wills my dude.

 

[LordGinSama]

even on the Haki page, it's described as fear manipulation so if you believe this is inaccurate make a CRT for it.

Don't be misleading here.


That's for the lower forms of Hao and such. Hao isn't only capable of will manipulation, there's other shit it does.

 

[Godernet]

Exactly, so you literally cannot asset your own interpretation as if it's a fact whenever Oda hasn't even fully explain the mechanics of Killer of Observation. "Sign of presence." hasn't been implied to be based upon Hao's fear manipulation.

You have to remember that in the manga there is no such thing as BA Hao, its a stage we came up with for the convenience of power scaling.

in reality, Shanks' Hao is so powerful that it invokes these extra effects. which we define on vs wiki as BA Hao.

If you are trying to assert the claim that they are fundamentally different when that's not even what's accepted or implied by Oda's statement, bring evidence and make a CRT on it.

Sign of presence mechanics =/= Hao blasts mechanics.


Or are you telling me Shanks can't even hit Itachi with Advanced Hao because Itachi is resistant to mind manipulation? Not all applications of Hao are based on the domination of wills my dude.

false equivalence.

Adv Hao is coating yourself in haki to boost AP which is completely separate from the Hax potency/resistance aspect of Hao.

BA Hao is just extremely potent Hao Hax with added effects

 

[speedster352]

Gin doesn't have layered invisibility, that's deactivated as explained in the OP, and I don't get the idea that Gin has a resistance against ESP, unless you're referencing his Reiatsu Concealing Cloak, if you're then Gin doesn't have that either. The key we're using in this fight is FKT Gin. He doesn't have that as standard equipment during the arc, he only arguably has it as standard equipment during the TBTP Arc and Isshin's flashback with White.

Itachi can counteract Gin's bankai range through multiple abilities and strategies, abilities like Shushin would allow Itachi to cross the distance between the two through a couple steps, Itachi could also use Shadow Clones as distractions, granting him time to continually shorten the distance between the two until gets line of sight with Gin to place him under a Genjutsu, which Gin doesn't have any notable resistances to. Why exactly would Gin's bankai phase through Itachi's Susanoo?.

Itachi acts exactly the same way as Gin, alongside his higher intelligence, why would Shanks and Itachi be the two fighting against each other while Gin stands back and evaluates when it's more in-character for Gin to attack his opponents head on than Itachi?. It's more likely that Itachi would be the one standing back and evaluating all the abilities, fighting style and quirks about each character, not Gin.

Itachi doesn't have Infinite Tsukuyomi, so that doesn't matter, MS Genjutsu has feats of affecting purely spiritual beings like Tailed Beast, Gin will be affected by Itachi's Genjutsu, regardless if he's a soul or not.

He still has access to the cloak it’s on his profile.

 

[LordGinSama]

my guy, willpower is mental fortitude, Hao Haki is willpower, It's the reason people with a strong enough mental can just resist the dominating will Haoshoku invokes onto its targets. something that's been stated several times in the series.

This is also false, Haki in general is a hell of a lot closer to being soul based than it is to being mental based. Having a strong will is essentially the same as having a strong soul, so no you'd be wrong and the profiles even state it. Also it's literally never been stated once that Hao is mental based, if so provide scans.



Through sheer willpower they can resist losing their mind when absorbing shadows through the Kage Kage no Mi. Shadows belonging to strong willed people are difficult to control, allowing them to rebel against Moria's pact which usually immediately submits a shadow to his supremacy and orders. Spiritual energy is contained within one's soul/life; this energy is represented by the fighting power or the Haki itself. Those with strong souls, which are homologous to shadows, resist the effects of Brook's soul manipulation.



so no, Hao is closer to spiritual nonsense than it is mental nonsense.

You have to remember that in the manga there is no such thing as BA Hao, its a stage we came up with for the convenience of power scaling.

No it's not? It's literally stated to be canon, that's a pretty ignorant claim to make.

in reality, Shanks' Hao is so powerful that it invokes these extra effects. which we define on vs wiki as BA Hao.

Hao isn't mental.

If you are trying to assert the claim that they are fundamentally different when that's not even what's accepted or implied by Oda's statement, bring evidence and make a CRT on it.

Your the one asserting shit here buddy, Haki is spiritual but offers resistances to mind jazz. Haki, in of itself is not mental based but spiritual. This is accepted in the profiles now quit telling me to make CRT's whenever it's literally already accepted. Your just being dismissive at this point.

 

[Deceived3596]

He still has access to the cloak it’s on his profile.

I don't care, he doesn't have the thing during the arc we're using, so he wouldn't have it during this fight either.

 

[LordGinSama]

Haki, also known as "Ambition", "Presence", "Spirit", "Aura", and many more names, is an energy system found in is present within every living creature in the One Piece world. It is a power that allows people to utilize their spiritual energy for various purposes.


mental my ass.