HST Showdown - (Round 6 - Villainous Façades)

[LordGinSama]

Haoshoku Haki, also known as Hao, Conqueror's Haki, or Color of the Supreme King, is the rarest of the three types of Haki, as only one in several million people are born with this type of haki. Stated to be the manifestation of the spirit, this is an ability used to manipulate the user's own willpower and killing intention in the form of an aura burst, allowing them to dominate the willpower of their enemies.

 

[LordGinSama]

Japanese 上級 成圧感で気絶させる! 心技体を備えた真の覇者は、気迫を高めるのみで覇気を全方位に発散!!その迫力は船を震わせ、すれ違いざまに歴戦の猛者をも倒す…!! シャンクスのでは、白ひげ海賊団船員すらこの有様!!


English Advanced Stage Stun them with a sense of pressure! A true champion, equipped with mind, technique, and body, only needs to raise his spirits to release his supreme energy in all directions! His power shakes the ship and defeats even the fiercest warriors as they pass by...! In front of Shanks, even the crew of the Whitebeard Pirates are like this!

Hao is constantly stated to be spiritual not mental. Fear manipulation is just one indirect byproduct, Hao itself is not mind based. It's soul based if anything.

 

[LordGinSama]

Killer of Observation doesn't even knock people out, nor does it cause paralysis. All the ability does is stop you from seeing the future, Predictions, etc.

 

[Godernet]

This is also false, Haki in general is a hell of a lot closer to being soul based than it is to being mental based. Having a strong will is essentially the same as having a strong soul, so no you'd be wrong and the profiles even state it. Also it's literally never been stated once that Hao is mental based, if so provide scans.



Through sheer willpower they can resist losing their mind when absorbing shadows through the Kage Kage no Mi. Shadows belonging to strong willed people are difficult to control, allowing them to rebel against Moria's pact which usually immediately submits a shadow to his supremacy and orders. Spiritual energy is contained within one's soul/life; this energy is represented by the fighting power or the Haki itself. Those with strong souls, which are homologous to shadows, resist the effects of Brook's soul manipulation.

Hao and Buso are two different things.

Buso and Kenbun are closer to life force/soul while Hao is will power related which is in turn mental manipulation.

not only is this what is accepted on site but it's also what your other knowledgeable supporters like KT have told me it is off-site.

if anyone is asserting their own interpretations it's you. Go. Make. a . CRT.

so no, Hao is closer to spiritual nonsense than it is mental nonsense.

add the ability for Hao to invoke its abilities via soul manipulation then.

No it's not? It's literally stated to be canon, that's a pretty ignorant claim to make.

where?

Hao isn't mental.

Initial Stage​

• Willpower Manipulation, Explosive Aura Burst, and Shockwave Creation (Users of this Haki are capable of manipulating their willpower into a large aura which shoots out in all directions, causing shockwaves to occasionally push others backwards and destroy the surroundings[20])
• Fear-Inducing Aura, Status Effect Inducement, Empathic and Fear Manipulation (By directly dominating the willpower of opponents, victims often fall unconscious and are extremely shaken by this Haki, and even those who aren't are still slightly scared[63][62][1][4]. Boa Marigold and Sandersonia obeyed Luffy's command of not harming the petrified warriors[20]. Those with barely enough willpower black out for a small period of time and get mild headaches[53])

The only things BA Hao adds:

Beyond Advanced Stage​

• Precognition Negation (Users of this Haki can prevent an opponent from being able to predict the future[78])
• All the abilities under Kenbunshoku Haki Negation

Weakness of Hao:

• Those with sufficient willpower are capable of managing to slightly stay conscious against the effects of Haoshoku Haki, usually getting headaches[53].
  • Those with even stronger willpower are capable of completely ignoring its effects[63].

All of this came from your Haki Page.

Your the one asserting shit here buddy, Haki is spiritual but offers resistances to mind jazz. Haki, in of itself is not mental based but spiritual. This is accepted in the profiles now quit telling me to make CRT's whenever it's literally already accepted. Your just being dismissive at this point.

Buso Haki is a life force-based power, Hao Haki is willpower, and willpower is mental fortitude.

There seems to be a disconnect between your words and what's accepted so I suggest talking with some of the more knowledgeable members to get a better idea of what Hao is currently accepted as.

 

[Godernet]

Haki, also known as "Ambition", "Presence", "Spirit", "Aura", and many more names, is an energy system found in is present within every living creature in the One Piece world. It is a power that allows people to utilize their spiritual energy for various purposes.


mental my ass.

this isn't how Hao works this is what Haki is in general.

Haoshoku Haki, also known as Hao, Conqueror's Haki, or Color of the Supreme King, is the rarest of the three types of Haki, as only one in several million people are born with this type of haki. Stated to be the manifestation of the spirit, this is an ability used to manipulate the user's own willpower and killing intention in the form of an aura burst, allowing them to dominate the willpower of their enemies.

"Using spirit to invoke willpower into dominate the will power of others is a mental ability" thats pretty much the exact thing the sharingan can neg with its mental resistances and inherent use of the soul/chakra.

Killer of Observation doesn't even knock people out, nor does it cause paralysis. All the ability does is stop you from seeing the future, Predictions, etc.

thats why its an advance application of an existing ability.

none of this is proof that BA Hao is fundamentally different from regular Hao.

 

[speedster352]

I don't care, he doesn't have the thing during the arc we're using, so he wouldn't have it during this fight either.

That’s not fair though that’s like removing a characters item like their sword.

 

[speedster352]

I don't care, he doesn't have the thing during the arc we're using, so he wouldn't have it during this fight either.

Also it’s standard equipment so you can’t restrict it.

 

[Deceived3596]

That’s not fair though that’s like removing a characters item like their sword.

It isn't, Gin always has his sword on him, especially while in this arc, he doesn't have his cloak in this arc, so I'm not giving it to him.

 

[Godernet]

Also it’s standard equipment so you can’t restrict it.

its his thread ofc he can

stop being goofy

 

[speedster352]

Also it’s standard equipment so you can’t restrict it.

It isn't, Gin always has his sword on him, especially while in this arc, he doesn't have his cloak in this arc, so I'm not giving it to him.

 

[speedster352]

its his thread ofc he can

stop being goofy

Whatever my vote for Gin remains because of his layered sleep manipulation and his ranged and haxed bankai which is his first move.

 

[Deceived3596]

I can restrict it because this match doesn't go on the profiles, It shouldn't even be countered as standard equipment in the first place, so I'll change that up in the future.

 

[Godernet]

alright Decieved give him the cloak but in exchange give us Edo Itachi

 

[LordGinSama]

Hao and Buso are two different things.

The statement isn't for Buso but Haki in general so there goes that argument.

Buso and Kenbun are closer to life force/soul while Hao is will power related which is in turn mental manipulation

Haki in general is spiritual not just Buso and Kenbunshoku.

not only is this what is accepted on site but it's also what your other knowledgeable supporters like KT have told me it is off-site.

It's not accepted as being solely mental, stop dodging context.

if anyone is asserting their own interpretations it's you. Go. Make. a . CRT.

Right. Back. At. You.


stop shifting the burden of evidence whenever the evidence is directly in front of you.

where?

Read it and weep. Stop talking out your ass as if you know everything whenever most of what you do is undermine shit.

Weakness of Hao:

• Those with sufficient willpower are capable of managing to slightly stay conscious against the effects of Haoshoku Haki, usually getting headaches[53].
  • Those with even stronger willpower are capable of completely ignoring its effects[63].

All of this came from your Haki Page.

Yet you continue to twist up things and manipulate what's in front of you. That's the weakness for Hao conquering WILLS, not the weakness for Hao in general. That doesn't stop from other Hao abilities from working.


learn what context is.

this isn't how Hao works this is what Haki is in general.

Nice contradiction.

There seems to be a disconnect between your words and what's accepted so I suggest talking with some of the more knowledgeable members to get a better idea of what Hao is currently accepted as.

It's not a disconnect, your just either misunderstanding how Hao works or intentionally being manipulative of the information shown in front of you.

Also I'm one of the most knowledgeable supporters of One Piece so you can quit frankly get off my ass with that disrespect.

 

[Godernet]

Whatever my vote for Gin remains because of his layered sleep manipulation

Do you mean the one he has to look into Itachi's eyes to use? lol

and his ranged and haxed bankai which is his first move.

that isn't hitting Itachi with his analytical prediction and enhanced perception

plus I thought you said earlier his first move was to sit back and watch?

 

[LordGinSama]

Shanks killing your observation is not a result of him fear haxxing or mind haxxing you. Shanks hitting you with advanced Hao is not him fear haxxing or mind haxxing you.


Hao is not just the ability to overpower wills, you can continue to be ignorant, apply weaknesses to where they don't apply, manipulate information to fit your own narrative or do whatever you want.



Advanced and Beyond Advanced Hao are not abilities that effect the mind. Shanks doesn't knock you out or cause you to go to sleep with BA Hao, it has more applications than just will power domination.

 

[speedster352]

Do you mean the one he has to look into Itachi's eyes to use? lol

that isn't hitting Itachi with his analytical prediction and enhanced perception

plus I thought you said earlier his first move was to sit back and watch?

Sorry for that I just thought the sleeping kido would work as a last resort he doesn’t start off with it. Yes he does sit back and watch and would snipe with his bankai.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Is there anywhere stated only perfect Sussano can hold 2 people. Also from what I can tell from Kabuto fight Itachi Sussano doesn't protect him from all angles. Only thing that protects him is Yata mirror. Kabuto slices him even though his sussano was active.

If I am wrong can you share his sussano protecting him without yata mirror defence and as far as I can tell it's only one angle that gets protected attacks from backside still Works

It depends. If itachi has the ribcage up then an attack from the back wouldn't work
The PS can hold more then 2 people the lower stages aren't as big

 

[speedster352]

It depends. If itachi has the ribcage up then an attack from the back wouldn't work
The PS can hold more then 2 people the lower stages aren't as big

Would it block Gin phasing bankai? Even if it did wouldn’t the susano along with itachi desolve?

 

[AppleLord]

Nothing stopping Itachi from keeping the solo king crown. One Piece character is irrelevant in this fight.

 

[LordGinSama]

Nothing stopping Itachi from keeping the solo king crown. One Piece character is irrelevant in this fight.

Shanks folding Gin.

 

[Nierre]

Itachi FRA

 

[Godernet]

Nothing stopping Itachi from keeping the solo king crown. One Piece character is irrelevant in this fight.

is this a vote for Itachi?

 

[LordGinSama]

Also so we talked about it and me and Godernet were both simultaneously right and wrong with our arguments but for all the wrong reasons.


Killer of Observation can't be bypassed via resistance to mind manipulation


But it also won't work on Itachi due to his stuff being different than Kenbunshoku Haki. Would work on Gin to my knowledge however.

 

[Kachon123]

it also won't work on Itachi due to his stuff being different than Kenbunshoku Haki

It stops all abilities that Kenbun gives. Not just Kenbun specifically.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also what are the reasons for Gin? To be frank a lot of them seem faulty, especially the whole eyes closed and soul argument. Itachi to my knowledge has Genjutsu that can work on blind people, so even with that argument Itachi can still Genjutsu him.


Itachi and Shanks are the smartest of the two and can relay information to one another, and with their abilities being able to provide information to another another, topped their intelligence leads me to believe they'd both see Gin as the mutual thread due to Gin being the character with the most destructive capacities and the most amount of range.

 

[Stryker861]

Itachi and Shanks are the smartest of the two and can relay information to one another, and with their abilities being able to provide information to another another, topped their intelligence leads me to believe they'd both see Gin as the mutual thread due to Gin being the character with the most destructive capacities and the most amount of range.

Nard and op goons ganging up on bleach is something i love to see tbh

 

[LordGinSama]

It stops all abilities that Kenbun gives. Not just Kenbun specifically.

Yadayada something about Sharingan stuff being different, Yadayada.

 

[Kachon123]

Yadayada something about Sharingan stuff being different, Yadayada.

Bullshit

 

[LordGinSama]

Nard and op goons ganging up on bleach is something i love to see tbh

Kishi and Oda are broski's ofc

 

[LordGinSama]

Bullshit

Reasons?

 

[Kachon123]

Reasons?

"Sharingan is different" in what way?

Different than what? Hao simply stops those abilities. Since Sharingan has those abilities, they will be stopped.

It doesn't matter how it allows Itachi to use sensory abilities. Because BA Hao negates it, he will not be able to use it. Simple as that.

 

[speedster352]

Also what are the reasons for Gin? To be frank a lot of them seem faulty, especially the whole eyes closed and soul argument. Itachi to my knowledge has Genjutsu that can work on blind people, so even with that argument Itachi can still Genjutsu him.


Itachi and Shanks are the smartest of the two and can relay information to one another, and with their abilities being able to provide information to another another, topped their intelligence leads me to believe they'd both see Gin as the mutual thread due to Gin being the character with the most destructive capacities and the most amount of range.

Izangi sacrifices his eye and also he has to memories the fight basically he activated it by using hand to hand combat with kabuki while his eyes are closed that’s the activation. Also Gin stays from range and bankai snipes. Shanks would be too busy with itachi to notice Gin even if he does it will be too late and he would get hit. Also I thought the sharigan only predicts muscle moves and trajectories sorry to say but Gin banaki phases trough things and actually turns into dust. For a short while of course so it can’t be read normally or blocked. That’s his win con his standard equipment and bankai range spam.

 

[Godernet]

"Sharingan is different" in what way?

it's not precog. thats the main difference.

the way KT described BA Hao is that it takes control of Shanks's own presence to neg Obv Haki users not necessarily afflicting something onto his opponents.

Analytical Improvement users whose prediction is reliant on the user's movements and have this ability as a passive result of having their Sharingan active doesn't work the same as it doesn't require anything involving Shanks's presence.

Different than what? Hao simply stops those abilities.

Itachi's superior Mental resistances neg Basic Hao, and BA Hao seems to function differently anyways.

It doesn't matter how it allows Itachi to use sensory abilities. Because BA Hao negates it, he will not be able to use it. Simple as that.

Obv Precog and Sharingan Analytical improvement just work too differently

Based on the very little we know about it, it shouldn't work on Sharingan.

 

[Kachon123]

Itachi's superior Mental resistances neg Basic Hao, and BA Hao seems to function differently anyways.

Killer of Observation can't be bypassed via resistance to mind manipulation

Obv Precog and Sharingan Analytical improvement just work too differently

Kenbun is much more than precog.

 

[Godernet]

Kenbun is much more than precog.

I agree but Sharingan's analytical prediction is different in every conceivable way to Obv haki


Obv Haki Summary

Kenbunshoku Haki, also known as Kenbun, Observation Haki, Color of Observation, or Mantra, is one of the two most common shades of Haki. It provides a sort of sixth sense to the user, allowing them to sense the presence of others even if they are concealed from view or too far away to see normally. Every living creature emits a "voice", and Kenbunshoku is capable of listening to that voice, providing them with abilities based on reading said voice[15]. It can also provide certain other abilities beyond just enhancing the senses. Known as the ability of perception, it allows the user to sense the presence of living things and the emotional changes surrounding them[1]. It is not used only in fights but is effective in helping the user foresee dangers and evade them.

Summary: Kenbun operates based on sensing the presence/voice/spirit of living things for precog, analytical prediction, etc.


BA Hao Haki Summary

• Beyond Advanced Stage: Haki users at this stage are capable of using Haoshoku Haki beyond the level of advanced users. Utilizing the "Observation Killing" ability, they can negate the enemy's ability to predict and see into the future, and this technique is usually used against Kenbunshoku Users.
  • Examples include Shanks

Summary: BA Hao allows Shanks to suppress this voice/spirit/presence so Obv Haki users have nothing to look for. It's kinda similar to how in DBZ characters can suppress their Ki to the point where they cant be found at all by Ki sensing.


Sharingan's Analytical Predictions

Sharingan Analytical prediction is based on enhanced vision and enhanced perceptions via sight. It's all a passive ability of the Sharingan that allows you to perfectly counter the moves of the opponent based on watching their movements down to their muscles and analyzing the information and incredible deciphering speed of the Sharingan.

Summary: Because Itachis predictions are based on sight. BA Hao can't really stop it since all it does is erase Shanks's presence not his actual body from Itachi's sight.

 

[Nierre]

Kenbun and Sharingan work differently to achieve similar results. Not sure why Shanks' Hao would affect Itachi.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Also what are the reasons for Gin?

• 13KM range attacks
• Self Teleportation so even if characters reaches him he can just avoid them by using that or Shunpo can do the same with single step. Idk Arc was saying it would give few KM distance in Tosen match Gin obviously scales above him
• Durability Negation, Well Corrosion Manipulation and Poison Manipulation with his BanKai.
• His Eyes will be closed as In character so far. So He wouldn't be affected by Genjustu.
• Also Itachi stamina sucks. Let's say he makes multiple clones it would just reduce his chakra not like it would make him stay in fight longer. It's not Edo Itachi anyway. Knowing he also has health issues I don't know what to say.

This is my argument for Gin Wincons Against Itachi

As for Shanks @AStaticVoid arguments made sense I am going with that. Also he already made a pretty Good counter for MS Genjustu also.

To be frank a lot of them seem faulty, especially the whole eyes closed and soul argument. Itachi to my knowledge has Genjutsu that can work on blind people, so even with that argument Itachi can still Genjutsu him.

Nah. Itachi Genjustu never shown or implied to work on blind people. They atleast should look at him once.

Itachi and Shanks are the smartest of the two and can relay information to one another, and with their abilities being able to provide information to another another, topped their intelligence leads me to believe they'd both see Gin as the mutual thread due to Gin being the character with the most destructive capacities and the most amount of range.

Gin is also a prodigy and able to earn Aizen trust and join his team. I think it's upto interpretation if they would team up or not. Even if they team up I don't see them catching Gin who can use teleportation or Shunpo to distance him from them again.

 

[Godernet]

His Eyes will be closed as In character so far. So He wouldn't be affected by Genjustu.

the fact that you're still using this argument without making any attempt to prove his eye are actually closed lol

• Also Itachi stamina sucks. Let's say he makes multiple clones it would just reduce his chakra not like it would make him stay in fight longer. It's not Edo Itachi anyway. Knowing he also has health issues I don't know what to say.

look at the OP, this is healthy Itachi, even Sick Itachi can use his chakra continuously for three days straight while on 70% chakra(check his Part 2 stamina section if you don't remember what I'm talking about)

 

[Nierre]

Nah. Itachi Genjustu never shown or implied to work on blind people. They atleast should look at him once.

You need to read his profile