Trigon downgrade, and Nabu and The Batman Who Laughs upgrade

[Transcending]

Would you be willing to update both of their VSB wiki pages accordingly if I unlock them?

I can't rn, but I can by Saturday or Sunday.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The Monitor should scale from the World Forger's supergenius intelligence though.

 

[Antvasima]

I can't rn, but I can by Saturday or Sunday.

Okay. Tell me here when I should unlock the Post-Flashpoint Lex Luthor and Batman pages.

 

[Transcending]

The Monitor should scale from the World Forger's supergenius intelligence though

Actually he's already Supergenius, Forger is just "likely Supergenius" though.

 

[Antvasima]

Ah. The Forger should have a straight Supergenius rating.

 

[Transcending]

And, idk if this means much but in the recent Failsafe arc Batman got a few good feats, He has batarangs made of New Genesis steel and trying to defeat Failsafe, a creation by his subconscious, by time travel, would dangerously damage the timeline.

@Antvasima; Would these count for anything?

 

[Antvasima]

Ah. The Forger should have a straight Supergenius rating.

This page also needs to be edited btw.

@Antvasima; Would these count for anything?

I am afraid that it is not sufficient for a Supergenius rating.

 

[Transcending]

Okay. Tell me here when I should unlock the Post-Flashpoint Lex Luthor and Batman pages.

I can edit now. But on the topic of Forger, I was thinking about giving Perpetua her old ratings? I checked the downgrade thread and the OP didn't address the reasons for the previous ratings(scaling above the Source Wall). Additionally, she destroyed Low 1-C realms like New Genesis and Apokolips so I think 2-A is lowballing her. OP also didn't address the reasons for the Ultra-Monitor's upgrade, so I think he should retain his tierings too. Lastly, in Perpetua's profile, the scans for her controlling Hypertime doesn't work.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Sphere of gods have 28 dimensions to nigh infinite based on composite cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

I can edit now. But on the topic of Forger, I was thinking about giving Perpetua her old ratings? I checked the downgrade thread and the OP didn't address the reasons for the previous ratings(scaling above the Source Wall). Additionally, she destroyed Low 1-C realms like New Genesis and Apokolips so I think 2-A is lowballing her. OP also didn't address the reasons for the Ultra-Monitor's upgrade, so I think he should retain his tierings too. Lastly, in Perpetua's profile, the scans for her controlling Hypertime doesn't work.

I will begin by unlocking the Post-Flashpoint Batman, Luthor, and World Forger pages. I do not think that this is the right place to make snap decidåsions about controversial tier changes.

 

[Antvasima]

You can edit them now. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Swerzye29038]

No?

Yes she did

 

[Swerzye29038]

Firstly, I will note that BWL has outsmarted Lex before, for example, when he got captured by Lex, that was actually all a part of his plan so that he can replace Lex as Perpetua's right-hand man. Another incident of BWL outsmarting Lex is this. For this incident, it was even explicitly stated things didn't go according to Luthor's plans.

But I actually think Batman can be argued to be as intelligent as the Batman Who Laughs. For starters, Batman was stated to be able to think like BWL. Secondly, when Batman was jokerizing himself, he was consistently stated to be the same as BWL. Batman also outsmarted BWL and beat him. Additionally, BWL and Batman have the same voice and DNA, and they are identical on a cellular level. Here Batman explains how BWL is Batman himself, with the only difference being a lack of rules and morals. Here BWL confirms that he and Batman are equals and that he is just Batman when he stops holding back, forgets about all his morals. Here BWL says he has Batman's mind(intelligence) and Joker's insanity, making him an apex predator. This matches what Scott Snyder told us in interviews. Scott Snyder has stated that Batman without morals is an Apex Predator, and BWL is just that, Batman without morals. And Jock, the artist for BWL has stated that the Batman Who Laughs is Batman.

There are more stuff but the point is that Batman and BWL are equally intelligent. This was the point of the Metal era, to show how much Batman holds back and what would happen if Batman decides to simply, stop doing so. Batman is supposed to be able to do everything BWL can, that was certainly the author's intent. Batman simply has worse feats because he holds back, he has limits and he wouldn't break them, but if he did, he can do all of this. And, idk if this means much but in the recent Failsafe arc Batman got a few good feats, He has batarangs made of New Genesis steel and trying to defeat Failsafe, a creation by his subconscious, by time travel, would dangerously damage the timeline.

In the end, we could scale Batman to BWL and Lex to Batman.

I agree that Batman should have Supergenius rating

 

[Swerzye29038]

Well, all of that makes sense from a writer perspective, but from an in-story perspective both Batman and Lex Luthor just do not have any feats that remotely approach a tier 2 or higher freely reality-warping scale that is required for Supergenius ratings. I could see tbem get "At least Extraordinary Genius (list of their own feats), potentially Supergenius (by scaling to TBWL)".

is BWL not stating/implying that he and Batman are equally intelligent not enough?

 

[Transcending]

Yes she did

Are you referring to JL #35?

 

[Transcending]

I will begin by unlocking the Post-Flashpoint Batman, Luthor, and World Forger pages. I do not think that this is the right place to make snap decidåsions about controversial tier changes.

Okay, we can discuss them during or after the split

 

[Transcending]

is BWL not stating/implying that he and Batman are equally intelligent not enough?

If we do go with a full Supergenius rating I think it would be important to note he only uses that level of intelligence when bloodlusted. So something like-

Extraordinary genius, Supergenius without morals

 

[Transcending]

I will begin by unlocking the Post-Flashpoint Batman, Luthor, and World Forger pages.

They are still locked? For Batman and Lex, we might need more discussion going by what @Swerzye29038 stated. I think we can edit BWL(Physics Manip), Forger, and Spectre(scaling to Kent Nelson and not Nabu) in the meantime.

 

[Transcending]

BUMP

 

[Transcending]

Bump

Hail Supreme Lion!

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Hail lord Hippopotamus!

 

[Antvasima]

is BWL not stating/implying that he and Batman are equally intelligent not enough?

No, it is not. For example, Moon Girl is officially stated to be smarter than Reed Richards and Doctor Doom, but she has no actual feats remotely approaching their scale as far as I am aware, so it is likely a claim without substance.

 

[Antvasima]

They are still locked? For Batman and Lex, we might need more discussion going by what @Swerzye29038 stated. I think we can edit BWL(Physics Manip), Forger, and Spectre(scaling to Kent Nelson and not Nabu) in the meantime.

I unlocked the pages that were not already unlocked earlier. If you cannot edit them anyway, your wiki account is likely either not old enough or does not have a confirmed email address.

 

[Vasco]

No, it is not. For example, Moon Girl is officially stated to be smarter than Reed Richards and Doctor Doom, but she has no actual feats remotely approaching their scale as far as I am aware, so it is likely a claim without substance.

BWL is technically still batman, just his an evil nightmare version from the dark multiverse but you're right on batman not having feats to that level perphaps a possibly or likely since they are technically the same character.

 

[Transcending]

I unlocked the pages that were not already unlocked earlier. If you cannot edit them anyway, your wiki account is likely either not old enough or does not have a confirmed email address.

I edited Lex, Forger, and Batman

 

[Transcending]

Where did it say Magic powered the Sphere? To the contrary, it said the Sphere is the source of magic.

He also said Magic would die.

Where is it stated he was using the Otherkind to assist in his task? He just says he and the other Lords would destroy the Sphere when they eat Earth's magic.

No? There are a million different reasons for him to lure the Otherkind.

To support my point even more, SOG was stated here to sustain magic, not the other way around

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

BUMP

HAIL SUPREME LION!

 

[Antvasima]

What currently needs to be done here?

Also, thank you for helping out with the editing. I locked the pages in question earlier.

 

[Transcending]

What currently needs to be done here?

Also, thank you for helping out with the editing. I locked the pages in question earlier.

Now we need to-

1: Edit BWL for Physics Manipulation
2: Change Spectre's superior to Nabu to superior to Kent Nelson
3: Discuss if BWL's prep tier can be upgraded to Tier 2
4: Discuss if the destroying the Sphere of the Gods feat makes Nabu Low 1-C

 

[Transcending]

Also, @Firestorm808 stated he would give input for these a few days back-

3: Discuss if BWL's prep tier can be upgraded to Tier 2
4: Discuss if the destroying the Sphere of the Gods feat makes Nabu Low 1-C

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Now we need to-

1: Edit BWL for Physics Manipulation
2: Change Spectre's superior to Nabu to superior to Kent Nelson
3: Discuss if BWL's prep tier can be upgraded to Tier 2

This seems reasonable, as long as physics manipulation is only for his optional equipment.

4: Discuss if the destroying the Sphere of the Gods feat makes Nabu Low 1-C

I do not know. It may be an inconsistency.

@Deagonx @Firestorm808

What do you think?

 

[Deagonx]

I'm fine with physics manipulation. I do not agree with changing Spectre's justification as there are multiple instances where he is directly indicated to be superior to Nabu. I do not agree with upgrading BWL's prep tier because as you indicated Ant, Monitor's power level in his weakened state is unclear.

As for the Sphere, it's worth pointing out that we only have a page for Classic Fate, not modern Fate. However in the context of the story I am not persuaded that it confers Low 1-C and the potential scaling chains are ridiculous. I think the matter should probably wait either way, since the tiering of the Sphere in that cosmology is soon to be discussed.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm fine with physics manipulation.

Okay. Would somebody experienced here be willing to apply it please?

I do not agree with changing Spectre's justification as there are multiple instances where he is directly indicated to be superior to Nabu.

Okay. Never mind about that then.

I do not agree with upgrading BWL's prep tier because as you indicated Ant, Monitor's power level in his weakened state is unclear.

Well, I was thinking of scaling him from The Spectre, but he likely used hax and a specific weakness, as Batmen usually do.

As for the Sphere, it's worth pointing out that we only have a page for Classic Fate, not modern Fate. However in the context of the story I am not persuaded that it confers Low 1-C and the potential scaling chains are ridiculous. I think the matter should probably wait either way, since the tiering of the Sphere in that cosmology is soon to be discussed.

Yes, agreed. Both regarding the revised tiering and that we would need a new character profile page for the modern Doctor Fate.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, I was thinking of scaling him from The Spectre, but he likely used hax and a specific weakness, as Batmen usually do.

Tynion also clarified that the Dark Multiverse Spectre was not directly comparable to the real Spectre.

Would somebody experienced here be willing to apply it please?

I can do that.

 

[Antvasima]

Tynion also clarified that the Dark Multiverse Spectre was not directly comparable to the real Spectre.

Okay. Never mind then. I think that only the physics manipulation should be applied then. The rest of this discussion can end here.

I can do that.

Thank you for helping out.

I will unlock the page in question then. Tell me here when you are done please.

 

[Transcending]

This seems reasonable, as long as physics manipulation is only for his optional equipment.

What about Powers and Abilities?

Okay. Never mind about that then.

There's no evidence actually, please don't listen to him blindly, and read my essay. Ignoring the fact he provided no evidence Jim Corrigan Spectre is superior to Nabu, I addressed all his evidence for Unbound Spectre being vastly superior to Nabu. The only real evidence for Unbound Spectre>Nabu by a significant amount is the scan from Spectre(1998), but even then, Nabu actually survived Spectre, even though it took everything out of him. In fact, Deagon himself admitted Spectre isn't infinitely superior, so they would have the same tier.

Anyway, the Unbound Spectre revisions are done since he's been downgraded, the issue right now is if Jim Corrigan scales to Nabu and he doesn't. Deagon himself admitted Kent is relative to Jim-

supports

Wiki is acting worse than it usually is on phone for some reason, so I am only being able to quote a single word. But the sentence the word is from is enough.

Well, I was thinking of scaling him from The Spectre, but he likely used hax and a specific weakness, as Batmen usually do.

He used magic.

Tynion also clarified that the Dark Multiverse Spectre was not directly comparable to the real Spectre.

He did, but BWL confirmed Dark Multiverse Spectre was above the Phantom Stranger, and we know the PS is relative to Spectre from New 52's PS run. So the difference in power is minimal.

would

I have read most of the stories featuring Post-Flashpoint Fate and there's not really much for a good tier, he seems to be in the same tier as Heralds. Nabu has good feats naturally, but Classic Fate's page's Powers and Abilities section is very bad. I think that should be revised, if no one else is willing, I am reading some Fate related comics right now and I will make a CRT a few months or years later.

 

[Transcending]

Okay. Never mind then. I think that only the physics manipulation should be applied then. The rest of this discussion can end here.

I do not accept.

1: Don't blindly listen to Deagon, you should form your opinion after reading both our sides, in my case, the essay I made. I know you are busy but it's just one post.

2: BWL's Tier 2 and Nabu's Tier 1 stuff falls under controversial revisions. As such they need the disagreement of at least 3 staff to reject. I confirmed this with @KLOL506 myself.

3: Firestorm said he will check this thread. I think we should ping him and wait for him to give his input.