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Problem with DC's 2-C ratings
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
- Start date
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Don't we need a separate CRT to discuss who scales to this 2-A scaling?
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Likely, though it coincides with @Emirp sumitpo heralds thread
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Yeah, we'll discuss this later in Emirp's thread.
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Before we start accepting the Editor's statements, shouldn't we, you know, find in-comic scans that would support these alternate hypertime timelines existing within the Orrey?
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The statement is already accepted. It's in the cosmology page.
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It would seem that this WOG statement was overlooked at the time. As with any WOG statement, it needs to complement, reliable in-story statements.
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If you think it should not have been accepted in the first place, then that's a separate issue entirely. You should really just make another thread for it.
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So we are knowingly using a WOG statement without supporting scans for a Tier 2 change because it was part of the mass acceptance during the initial blog creation?
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"Mass acceptance"?
Didn't the blog take months of discussion to accept and eventually implement? And nobody caught this until now?
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The blog was utterly massive. It's easy to overlook these things. However, what Firestorm is saying aligns with our Editing Rules:
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Anybody got a response to this above? I get the OP and potentially agree but I wanted to know people's thoughts regarding this.The other thing is, we currently treat alternate timelines as independent numbered Earths, based on the fact that Jaxon's alternate timeline became Earth-295. In addition to the fact that the creation of the 52 Earths was described as happening through fractal branches in Hypertime
So I am not sure it fully stands to reason that each of these 52 also has infinitely many others via Hypertime. World Forger also notes that the universe was infinite, was reduced to a single universe, and then became 52 universes.
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Darkseid damaging the Orrery was him breaking the space-time/vibration around the New Earth's universe, which acts as the nexus point that the entire multiverse reacts to.
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I'm unsure how else can we interpret it though.
There is frankly, a truckload of evidence in DC that there are infinite realities in the material world. Some specific evidence in particular I want to focus on comes in Before Watchmen: Doctor Manhattan which describes the universe and its alternate timelines as completely built on Schrodingers cat, MWI, infinite possibilities, and just quantum mechanics stuff as a whole (I mean it's quite literally the entire theme of these 4 issues).
Considering this is pretty much what universes work on, just logically speaking, how exactly is there supposed to be just 52 spacetimes though? These 52 Earths are locked off from any other earth, so where do these alternate branches expand? I believe Didios statement just answers that, these alternate branches expand within each Earth. This might already be what's happening in DC by the way, the map for example describes "worlds within worlds" for example.
As for this
There is frankly, a truckload of evidence in DC that there are infinite realities in the material world. Some specific evidence in particular I want to focus on comes in Before Watchmen: Doctor Manhattan which describes the universe and its alternate timelines as completely built on Schrodingers cat, MWI, infinite possibilities, and just quantum mechanics stuff as a whole (I mean it's quite literally the entire theme of these 4 issues).
Considering this is pretty much what universes work on, just logically speaking, how exactly is there supposed to be just 52 spacetimes though? These 52 Earths are locked off from any other earth, so where do these alternate branches expand? I believe Didios statement just answers that, these alternate branches expand within each Earth. This might already be what's happening in DC by the way, the map for example describes "worlds within worlds" for example.
As for this
Earth-295 is a part of the Pre-Crisis Multiverse, or "Multiverse-2" as its called now. Hypertime itself grows and changes, and has always been the collection of all possible realities and timestreams. To say that Hypertime could have Earths that contain their own timelines within them isn't a far fetch, especially in iterations of the Multiverse where there are only 52 Earths and alternate futures and timelines have no where else to grow.
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In the main cosmology rejected earths simply sink down into the dark multiverse. It's hard to say where, if anywhere, the alternate timelines would be or are. The whole idea around Zero Hour was collapsing those timelines down. Anything we could say about timelines in DC is just going to depend on what source you are looking at and what era.
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I believe that all other Earths outside of the fifty-two known universes of the local multiverse are alternate possibilities stored somewhere in Hypertime. The Orrery of Worlds is the local multiverse of fifty-two universes and universes that are not known like the 53rd universe are somehow separate from it. Thus, creating or destroying at the Orrery level should be considered a 2-C feat.
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Massive Agree
Anything to crawl back out of the downgrades
Anything to crawl back out of the downgrades
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So, I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. While it is true that DC often states that there are worlds within worlds and universes within universes (For example Spectre vol 2 #7), but I feel like, inless it specifically is attacking the timeline of that universe (Such as Time Trapper, Parallax Hal, Darkseid's fall, or Perpetua) or the Bleed, we shouldn't assume it's destroying the branch realities/alternate futures.
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Another example of it following Many Worlds interpretation is Spectre vol 4 #27
"Each choice spins out a new chain of events, a world, a universe"
"Each choice spins out a new chain of events, a world, a universe"
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I think the worlds within worlds are valid in DeMatteis cosmology but not in the cosmological interpretation handled by Morrison, Snyder, Tynion, and Williamson.
There have been several examples suggesting that the Orrery has a finite number of fifty-two universes, most notably in Snyder's stories with the World Forger saying that the multiverse was once infinite before the Crisis on Infinite Earths which collapsed it to a single universe until the Infinite Crisis that brought the multiverse back with a number of fifty-two universes, which was even confirmed by Perpetua. In Morrison's stories, for example, the Monitors mapped the multiverse into fifty-two universes. The most logical explanation for the other universes/timelines is that they are confined or hidden within Hypertime which has been described as an infinite network of timestreams outside of the local multiverse. There is no evidence in the comics that supports the statements regarding the worlds in worlds other than DeMatteis' stories, which almost depicted the universes as "quantum universes".
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Minor correction: worlds within worlds from Spectre vol 2 #7 is from Doug Moenech.
I think the infinite multiverse/MWI was mentioned in Earth 2 World's End #1 by Marguerite Bennett, Mike Johnson, and Daniel H. Wilson and I think a few other places.
I personally always interpreted it as the "Bleed" of a universe holds the timelines, but I'm not arguing for or against it.
I think the infinite multiverse/MWI was mentioned in Earth 2 World's End #1 by Marguerite Bennett, Mike Johnson, and Daniel H. Wilson and I think a few other places.
I personally always interpreted it as the "Bleed" of a universe holds the timelines, but I'm not arguing for or against it.
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Thanks for the clarification. I still think that these infinite universes/timelines are within Hypertime and were only truly part of the multiverse since the end of Death Metal, when each iteration of the multiverse was rendered into a web of infinite multiverses constituting a small Omniverse. Anyway, I'm not going to argue either.
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I'm a little confused why exactly the Dark Multiverse would be where these alternate timelines are, I'm pretty sure the whole idea of the Dark Multiverse is that "everything bad that could happen, happens in here," its practically described as infinite realities of nightmare, so not really sure why we would even assume that all of these alternate branches are "realities of nightmare", or why would they even grow there, that seems like a massive leap with no evidence.
You do also bring up something pretty important, Zero Hour, which also has a pretty interesting scan to this discussion. This one, which explicitly says that the universe dying also collapses a multitude of its timelines, which is of course pretty important to this conversation, considering there was one earth by the time of Zero Hour, and showcases that the Earth collapsing also collapses its timelines, which would obviously make no sense unless that Earth encompasses its timelines.
Another point that I'd also bring up is The Next, which also explicitly mentions the concept of the "Metaverse" having the whole logic of each moment creating infinite timelines of its own, all within a Metaverse. A pretty peculiar thing that's referenced repeatedly in this run is that the metaverse is pretty much just one spacetime continuum, this is seen here for example, where the collapse of the spacetime continuum also collapses the metaverse with it, similarly to Zero Hour, this too happens due to time as a whole unfolding in on itself. This idea is also seemingly referenced a couple of times where the main universe is described as a "reality-cluster," which is also referenced a couple of times throughout that entire run. Obviously showcasing that these Earths contain separate, infinite realities within them.
As for Elizios comments: I would have made that assumption if the editor himself didn't say that they were within the earths, it just seems like ignoring that piece of evidence even though it would make the most sense.
Also inducing the weird, vague split rules that were supposedly not even fully reviewed after a whole year by the team doesn't make sense when 1. You guys treat universes as constants unbound by the split 2. DiDio was an editor, its an official DC statement not just some Word of God.
There seems to be a whole lot of agreements here and a whole week has passed, I myself did not change my opinion, do we apply the changes or wait further?
You do also bring up something pretty important, Zero Hour, which also has a pretty interesting scan to this discussion. This one, which explicitly says that the universe dying also collapses a multitude of its timelines, which is of course pretty important to this conversation, considering there was one earth by the time of Zero Hour, and showcases that the Earth collapsing also collapses its timelines, which would obviously make no sense unless that Earth encompasses its timelines.
Another point that I'd also bring up is The Next, which also explicitly mentions the concept of the "Metaverse" having the whole logic of each moment creating infinite timelines of its own, all within a Metaverse. A pretty peculiar thing that's referenced repeatedly in this run is that the metaverse is pretty much just one spacetime continuum, this is seen here for example, where the collapse of the spacetime continuum also collapses the metaverse with it, similarly to Zero Hour, this too happens due to time as a whole unfolding in on itself. This idea is also seemingly referenced a couple of times where the main universe is described as a "reality-cluster," which is also referenced a couple of times throughout that entire run. Obviously showcasing that these Earths contain separate, infinite realities within them.
As for Elizios comments: I would have made that assumption if the editor himself didn't say that they were within the earths, it just seems like ignoring that piece of evidence even though it would make the most sense.
Also inducing the weird, vague split rules that were supposedly not even fully reviewed after a whole year by the team doesn't make sense when 1. You guys treat universes as constants unbound by the split 2. DiDio was an editor, its an official DC statement not just some Word of God.
There seems to be a whole lot of agreements here and a whole week has passed, I myself did not change my opinion, do we apply the changes or wait further?
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Not exactly. They don't collapse, they blend into one singular timeline.
"As the universe dies while time collapses, a multitude of timelines -- each as real as our own -- have begun to blend into one."
The point being, the whole thing with Zero Hour was removing all the alternate timelines.
I'm not sure why or how this comic would be of particular relevance. The writer of this comic only wrote this comic and a brief Aquaman run for DC. It doesn't appear to be in any continuity specifically and isn't a good source for how DC actually works.
Our rules for author statements are that they must be supported by in-comic evidence.
What quote are you referring to? I don't see anything that says something like that.
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Excellence616
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Bump
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Seems fine.
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bump
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when apply
TimeTrapperFanBoy
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I believe we’re waiting for Ultima to discuss this more with Deagonx, when they both have the time.
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Aka, in 2025.
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His debate with DT isn't gonna end until at least 2043.
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WHYYYYYY
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Okay so from what is known
Following the Infinite Crisis that brought back the multiverse, new branches formed through Hypertime. (Multiversity Guidebook Vol 1 #1) What had been infinite was contained to a set number of fifty-two universes (Justice League Vol 4 #27), walled off from the Greater Omniverse. (Infinite Frontier Vol 1 #0)
Each of the fifty-two universes, including the main reality, has hundreds to potentially infinite possible futures. (Justice League Vol 4 #31 & Justice League Vol 4 #33)
While these possible futures are Earth's futures, they all burrow through Hypertime. Brainiac was collecting several possible futures of Earth-0 through Hypertime, a network of timestreams outside the multiverse.
At this point I think the Orrery of Worlds was supposed to be finite and contained, closed off from the Greater Omniverse, but the Hands removed those boundaries when they have restarted multiverse. Where there once stood fifty-two universes, there are now countless new universes growing with multiverses integrating into an Omniverse now known as "Infinite Frontier".
The Orrery of Worlds should stay at Low Multiverse level and universes outside of it should be considered as possible futures or possible pasts that formed and existed within Hypertime until the Hands made these realities part of the Infinite Frontier/Omniverse.
Following the Infinite Crisis that brought back the multiverse, new branches formed through Hypertime. (Multiversity Guidebook Vol 1 #1) What had been infinite was contained to a set number of fifty-two universes (Justice League Vol 4 #27), walled off from the Greater Omniverse. (Infinite Frontier Vol 1 #0)
Each of the fifty-two universes, including the main reality, has hundreds to potentially infinite possible futures. (Justice League Vol 4 #31 & Justice League Vol 4 #33)
While these possible futures are Earth's futures, they all burrow through Hypertime. Brainiac was collecting several possible futures of Earth-0 through Hypertime, a network of timestreams outside the multiverse.
At this point I think the Orrery of Worlds was supposed to be finite and contained, closed off from the Greater Omniverse, but the Hands removed those boundaries when they have restarted multiverse. Where there once stood fifty-two universes, there are now countless new universes growing with multiverses integrating into an Omniverse now known as "Infinite Frontier".
The Orrery of Worlds should stay at Low Multiverse level and universes outside of it should be considered as possible futures or possible pasts that formed and existed within Hypertime until the Hands made these realities part of the Infinite Frontier/Omniverse.
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Given the new context behind Hypertime and Omniverse with Flashpoint. It's safe to say that Hypertime is the collection of all time. That means it almost always has been a part of a system not contained with the Orrery. Thus although some of those were lost during the Infinite Crisis, they could have been still within Hypertime.
Honestly, I just think we have to use this “Crisis-Cosmology” to blend it together to make sense of how big these universes can get. I finally do believe each universe holds a finite amount but expands possibilities to ad infinitium. I think there are maybe infinite timelines within these universes. Just because some authors do not touch back on some works doesn't really dismiss these ideas. Nevertheless, there is most likely finite as a sensible degree between source material.
Honestly, I just think we have to use this “Crisis-Cosmology” to blend it together to make sense of how big these universes can get. I finally do believe each universe holds a finite amount but expands possibilities to ad infinitium. I think there are maybe infinite timelines within these universes. Just because some authors do not touch back on some works doesn't really dismiss these ideas. Nevertheless, there is most likely finite as a sensible degree between source material.
Scottycj256
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the prophecy
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Scottycj256
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from what I can tell according to the DC rescaling thread, all of the heralds will be upgraded to 2-C, but will probably not be affected by this considering how much superior characters such as Godhead Darkseid and Diminished Perpetua/BWL are
Very Quick Edit: Just scanned through the OP again yeah all heralds would be 2-A as well
