Trigon downgrade, and Nabu and The Batman Who Laughs upgrade

[Deagonx]

I'm fine with possibly SG for both of them.

I disagree with scaling Batman's intelligence to BWL in the absence of feats. Their stats are different in several areas, and BWL has demonstrated a greater level of technical prowess IMO. I think "Extraordinary Genius" is good enough for the evidence we have.

 

[Firestorm808]

I disagree with scaling Batman's intelligence to BWL in the absence of feats. Their stats are different in several areas, and BWL has demonstrated a greater level of technical prowess IMO. I think "Extraordinary Genius" is good enough for the evidence we have.

If we can determine that BWL learned new stuff from people that Batman didn't meet to do his SG feats, that should be fine.

 

[Antvasima]

The "Supergenius" and "Extraordinary Genius" ratings are largely about knowledge of science and technology, not the kind of political maneuvering that BWL engaged in to supplant Lex as Perpetua's right-hand-man, and we should not scale them that way. Light Yagami for instance is only rated as Genius, even though the manipulation he engaged in was arguably a lot more complex than what BWL did to ingratiate himself to Perpetua.

Agreed. It isn't like the schemes themselves were particularly remarkable, mainly because the real world writer for that story does not possess genius-level intelligence.

Further, BWL -> Batman -> Lex is also dubious. I do not agree with scaling them just because BWL is Batman from another universe.

Yes, agreed. It doesn't fit for any of the feat that the main Batman has displayed in practice.

 

[Antvasima]

That should be fixed then, that's not a valid basis for being a Supergenius.

Agreed. Feel free to do so if you wish.

 

[Deagonx]

If we can determine that BWL learned new stuff from people that Batman didn't meet to do his SG feats, that should be fine.

Yeah, see this scan:

BWL says "I've been reading up." Notice the books the robins are holding. The DC Multiversity book, and a guide that says "How to destroy the multiverse."

He also said that Barbatos showed him the Dark Multiverse, so it seems to me that he was learning a lot of things that Bruce wasn't. In order to defeat the Spectre, for example, he said "I had to scour every tome of dark magic to find a means to cage him and kill him."

 

[Antvasima]

Upon reflection, the only piece of evidence that really speaks to possibly Supergenius is the machine, which BWL says: "Destroy everything, that's the idea. With positive energy (you), negative energy (the Anti-Monitor's astral brain), and dark energy (me), we'll blow apart the realm above."

I think that is possibly Supergenius if we interpret that as being able to destroy the multiverse. However, outsmarting Perpetua is not "Supergenius" level, and manipulating her is not "Supergenius" level, and absolutely shouldn't be included in the justification. Torturing and capturing the Monitor doesn't qualify IMO because Monitor was weakened.

That was due to the power of the individuals involved, not because his strategic mind is so great that it literally destroys timelines.

These are good points. Should we reduce TBWL's intelligence to "At least Supergenius" given that blowing up the local (comparatively tiny) multiverse is his only true potential Supergenius feat, and it may have strictly been due to the combined power of the Monitor and Anti-Monitor?

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree with scaling Batman's intelligence to BWL in the absence of feats. Their stats are different in several areas, and BWL has demonstrated a greater level of technical prowess IMO. I think "Extraordinary Genius" is good enough for the evidence we have.

Agreed.

 

[Deagonx]

Should we reduce TBWL's intelligence to "At least Supergenius" given that blowing up the local (comparatively tiny) multiverse is his only true potential Supergenius feat, and it may have strictly been due to the combined power of the Monitor and Anti-Monitor?

We could do "Extraordinary Genius, possibly Supergenius"

 

[Firestorm808]

Yeah, see this scan:

BWL says "I've been reading up." Notice the books the robins are holding. The DC Multiversity book, and a guide that says "How to destroy the multiverse."

He also said that Barbatos showed him the Dark Multiverse, so it seems to me that he was learning a lot of things that Bruce wasn't. In order to defeat the Spectre, for example, he said "I had to scour every tome of dark magic to find a means to cage him and kill him."

Sounds about right.

 

[Antvasima]

We could do "Extraordinary Genius, possibly Supergenius"

I suppose that seems like the least bad solution, yes.

 

[Deagonx]

I suppose that seems like the least bad solution, yes.

Okay, his current intelligence justification reads as follows:

Intelligence: Supergenius. As the Batman of Earth-22, The Batman Who Laughs' intellect is only matched by his fiendish cunning and pragmatic ruthlessness. Now completely unhinged and free of any moral fiber to dictate his choices, he was able to single-handedly wage war on the entire world, wiping out the entire Justice League with ease and even killing cosmic entities like The Spectre in his rampage. As the most trusted lieutenant of Barbatos, he is privy to all of the evil god's plans, successfully playing the Justice League of Earth-0 for fools and causing them to do everything he needed to fulfill his goal of destroying the multiverse until they obtained the Tenth Metal. Aside from his terrifying intellect and strategic thinking, he retains his status as one of the finest hand-to-hand combatants on Earth, overwhelming his Prime Earth counterpart until the latter received help from his own version of the Joker. Although he is absolutely insane, it doesn't hinder his monumental intellect in virtually any way. Using his intellect, he was able to capture and torture a weakened Monitor and link him with the Anti-Monitor's astral brain in order to destroy all of reality. He also successfully outsmarted Perpetua. | Nigh-Omniscient. The Batman Who Laughs perceives time in a non-linear fashion. This means that he sees the past, present, and future simultaneously. His powers allow him to view everything throughout time as well as the workings of the multiverse. The Batman Who Laughs is also aware of every Batman from the Dark Multiverse, and was able to pull aspects of the most terrifying and vicious of them, including their skills and experiences, and stitch them into his own mind.

To me, this has a lot of fluff as it is, and reads more like a promotional blurb about him than how it ought to be. So I propose the following re-write:

Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius, possibly Supergenius. As the Batman of Earth-22, The Batman Who Laughs' intellect is comparable to that of Bruce Wayne, without his moral code. Using his intellect, he researched the multiverse and how to destroy it, and was able to capture a weakened Monitor and link him with the Anti-Monitor's astral brain in order to destroy the multiverse. He scoured tomes of dark magic in order to capture and kill the Spectre. | Nigh-Omniscient. The Batman Who Laughs perceives time in a non-linear fashion, seeing the past, present, and future simultaneously. His powers allow him to view everything throughout time as well as the workings of the multiverse. The Batman Who Laughs is also aware of every Batman from the Dark Multiverse, and was able to pull aspects of the most terrifying and vicious of them, including their skills and experiences, and stitch them into his own mind.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that your version of TBWL's intelligence justification is considerably better. Feel free to replace the currently used version if you wish. I will unlock the page in question for you. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Deagonx]

I think that your version of TBWL's intelligence justification is considerably better. Feel free to replace the currently used version if you wish. I will unlock the page in question for you. Tell me here when you are done.

Done. I also added references and noted in the "Nigh-Omniscient" section that BWL obtained the abilities of Dr Manhattan and included a link to his VSBW profile so that it's clearer why/how he had that ability, and I tweaked the format to be aligned with how abilities are supposed to be annotated (with parentheses after the ability rating, less like a paragraph and more like sentence stems)

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks a lot for helping out.

I will lock the page again.

 

[Deagonx]

As to the remaining matter of Jim Corrigan's justification: Fate tells Spectre (Jim Corrigan) "You were the only one of the Seven who I could not have compelled to do so" and then here Fate says Spectre's power dwarfs even his own. Then again here he says "You've stopped me with a mere gesture. Not even Nabu himself ever faced such mystic might." Here Fate says "he has long since become the most powerful being in the cosmos."

Here it is said that the force of the Spectre represents the power that created the Lords of Order, and can unmake them.

So, notably. Spectre in general is repeatedly stated to be far far beyond the power of Nabu, and Fate said about Jim Corrigan Spectre specifically that he was the "most powerful being in the cosmos" and that "not even Nabu himself ever faced such mystic might."

So to that point, I think Jim Corrigan Spectre's "superior to Nabu" is acceptable.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine then. Is there anything left to do here, or should we close this thread?

 

[Deagonx]

should we close this thread?

That was the last point of contention I am aware of.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will close this thread then.

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.