Trigon downgrade, and Nabu and The Batman Who Laughs upgrade

[Transcending]

Speaking from a strategic point of view alone too, BWL has done some impressive things like this and this. For technology, this could also work.

 

[Transcending]

Yes, he's a version of Bruce from an alternative universe, I'm aware of that.



That's not at all what my objection was stated to be.

Being an alternate version alone wouldn't warrant all of those. Those things clearly indicate an equal intelligence, you cannot say someone can do the same things as the other person, but has a lower intelligence.

 

[Deagonx]

Speaking from a strategic point of view alone too, BWL has done some impressive things like this and this.

Impressive =/= Supergenius rating.

Being an alternate version alone wouldn't warrant all of those.

Disagree. All of those things could be said of pretty much any version of Batman from alternate universes, yet they have a wide gamut of accomplishments and a great deal of variability. The fact that a character is said to be Bruce but jokerized should not be used to scale them in every stat if it cannot be backed up with feats.

 

[Transcending]

I am obviously fine with if physics manipulation is placed in the equipment tabber in TBWL's powers and abilities section.

Done

 

[Transcending]

Impressive =/= Supergenius rating.

I mean, they did involve things related to the destruction of timelines.

Disagree. All of those things could be said of pretty much any version of Batman from alternate universes, yet they have a wide gamut of accomplishments and a great deal of variability. The fact that a character is said to be Bruce but jokerized should not be used to scale them in every stat if it cannot be backed up with feats.

They have accomplishments, but they don't have statements that they are equally as intelligent as main Batman, they don't have statements that they can do the same things, they don't have statements that they have the same mind, they don't have statements that they can think the same, that they are the exact same as Batman with the only difference being a difference in morality, and so on. In this case, we have multitudes of statements including ones from the author, artist, and BWL himself.

We also have statements that the main Batman is smarter than the rest of the Dark Knights(except BWL). In fact, BWL himself outsmarted them.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, they did involve things related to the destruction of timelines.

That was due to the power of the individuals involved, not because his strategic mind is so great that it literally destroys timelines.

but they don't have statements that they are equally as intelligent as main Batman, they don't have statements that they can do the same things, they don't have statements that they have the same mind, they don't have statements that they can think the same, that they are the exact same as Batman with the only difference being a difference in morality, and so on.

In often cases, yes, they literally do. All of these things are just bog standard descriptions of an alternate universe character.

We also have statements that the main Batman is smarter than the rest of the Dark Knights(except BWL). In fact, BWL himself outsmarted them.

It almost sounds as though the intelligence level is variable despite the fact that they all have the same mind, think the same, have the same DNA, etc.

 

[Transcending]

That was due to the power of the individuals involved, not because his strategic mind is so great that it literally destroys timelines.

No individual did anything. He outsmarted those in the Ultima Thule and made it crash into the center of the Multiverse in the first feat. In the second feat, he used his excellent knowledge of different weapons existing across the Multiverse and outsmarted the Justice League into giving him the last of Nth metal. He made some of the Dark Knights reverse the polarity of the Phoenix Cannon or whatever, and used that to darken the core of the Earth, after which he used Hawkman's mace to direct the Multiverse towards the Dark Multiverse.

In often cases, yes, they literally do. All of these things are just bog standard descriptions of an alternate universe character.

No? These details are very rarely given, in fact, most of the times the alternate reality versions don't even interact with the canon version.

It almost sounds as though the intelligence level is variable despite the fact that they all have the same mind, think the same, have the same DNA, etc.

Them having the same mind, think the same, have the same DNA and all were only stated for BWL. You are committing an Association fallacy, actually worse than that since we have direct statements that Batman's intelligence is only equal to BWL and is above those of the other Dark Knights, and the fact BWL outsmarted them.

 

[Deagonx]

He outsmarted those in the Ultima Thule and made it crash into the center of the Multiverse in the first feat. In the second feat, he used his excellent knowledge of different weapons existing across the Multiverse and outsmarted the Justice League into giving him the last of Nth metal. He made some of the Dark Knights reverse the polarity of the Phoenix Cannon or whatever, and used that to darken the core of the Earth, after which he used Hawkman's mace to direct the Multiverse towards the Dark Multiverse.

He made a ship crash and swindled some metal. He had his lackeys do something for him and used magic metal to move the multiverse. Truly a supergenius.

Them having the same mind, think the same, have the same DNA and all were only stated for BWL.

I guess all those other Bruce Waynes have different DNA.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Deagonx If you wish to report someone, you may do so here as the report button on a comment/post simply adds too much work for me and Antvasima and AKM sama instead of it being something all staff can get a fair share of checking the report.

@Transcending please stop being rude to Deagonx and calling him Pigheaded, thank you.

 

[Deagonx]

If you wish to report someone, you may do so here as the report button on a comment/post simply adds too much work for me and Antvasima and AKM sama instead of it being something all staff can get a fair share of checking the report.

Understood. I apologize, I was not aware of that about the report button. In the future I will do that.

 

[Firestorm808]

Regarding BWL and the Monitor, there seem to be two discussions happening atm.

1. How strong was the monitor when he was captured?
   1. Below Tier 2
   2. Tier 2 and Above
2. What is the intelligence level of BWL?
   1. Genius
   2. Supergenius

Is this correct? If so, what scenes are being used to support your answers?

 

[Deagonx]

Is this correct? If so, what scenes are being used to support your answers?

Yes for 1, no for 2. I'm fine with BWL supergenius, I just don't agree with scaling Lex and Batman to him, nor scaling him from Perpetua just because he manipulated her into making him her right hand man.

As for the Monitor, Ant and I agree that Monitor appears to be weakened. In fact, even Transcending has admitted this much.

Transcending's argument is that this weakening is "infinitesimal" -- and thus does not lower him below tier 2 -- on the basis that Monitor splintered into the Nil Monitors after COIE, and the Nil Monitors are tiered 4-B on this site. His reasoning goes that since there were a finite amount of Nil Monitors, they could have only represented an insignificant portion of his power (because finite additions of 4-B cannot reach tier 2), and therefore even though he was weakened in the story he was still tier 2.

I think that reasoning is silly enough to dismiss entirely. If the weakening was significant enough that it was mentioned in the story, and all three of us agree that it occurred, the notion that it was "infinitesimal" to Monitor's true power level is nonsensical, and the reasoning is poor to begin with as we have no idea that the weakening functioned in that manner, but he claimed that I must be the one to prove a different mechanism than the one he proposed even though he never provided evidence for it.

What are your thoughts on it?

 

[Firestorm808]

At the moment, we have The Monitor in the Multiverse as 2-C, possibly 2-A.

If we were to assume a weakened complete state, I would assume stronger than the splinters but weaker than his solid rating.

I would propose something like At least High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C. What do you think?

 

[Transcending]

@Transcending please stop being rude to Deagonx and calling him Pigheaded, thank you.

Regarding Pigheaded, it should be noted I never called him as such. I basically applied a fallacy called Argument by Pigheadness. That's a legit fallacy, take a look at these websites-

Website 1- https://media.discordapp.net/attach...676916556967987/Argument_by_Pigheadedness.png

Website 2- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1077677001495822356/image.png (Wikipedia btw)

Website 3- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1077677068524998716/image.png

Website 4- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1077677176301826068/image.png

Website 5- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/992073071785672704/1077677317729570946/image.png

And so on, this is an example of a problematic behaviour from him. He purposes paints me in bad light by severely misinterpreting by statements and assuming intentions.

 

[Firestorm808]

Can we not make a mountain out of a mole hill and move forward?

 

[Deagonx]

Regarding Pigheaded, it should be noted I never called him as such. I basically applied a fallacy called Argument by Pigheadness. That's a legit fallacy, take a look at these websites-

I explained that within the report. The fact that it is the name of a fallacy does not make it an appropriate thing to use amidst a discussion given that it is explicitly insulting. I explained this to your directly. If you want to make the assertion that I am ignoring evidence (I wasn't) then you can simply say that without using an insult.

Can we not make a mountain out of a mole hill and move forward?

I'd like to, but I am not keen on being called "pigheaded" every time he does not like something I say, and I have asked him repeatedly to stop it. Note that he's also using the less common name for the fallacy as an excuse to call people pigheaded. It's prudent IMO that it is made clear that it's insulting and not appropriate for the forum.

 

[Deagonx]

I would propose something like At least High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C. What do you think?

Well, the context is that he wants BWL to receive a tier upgrade "with prep" based on this device that he used to imprison monitor while he was weakened, whereas currently it simply has "Unknown" with prep. I am just not entirely comfortable giving tier 2 based on something that vague.

 

[Transcending]

How strong was the monitor when he was captured?

1. Below Tier 2
2. Tier 2 and Above

Firstly it should be noted that the Monitor was never explicitly stated to be weakened, and definitely not significantly so, like Deagon is implying here-

If the weakening was significant enough that it was mentioned in the story

Deagon's entire argument comes from BWL saying this-

I know it's a lot for you. After all, you have only just started re-form after the last Multiversal crisis

Nowhere is it stated Monitor was weakened, let alone significantly. We can understand he was weakened due to him just getting back his splinters but, there's nothing to say he was significantly weakened, that's a baseless assumption added by Deagon.

Deagon is arguing that the "lot" BWL mentioned was in reference to Mar's physical state and so that Mar was significantly weakened, but it's obviously referring to his mental state, and I provided an analogy to support my case further. This is that-

Getting this project must be a lot for you, after all, you just finished a large homework

So there's that. I still recommend reading this post by me- https://vsbattles.com/threads/trigo...batman-who-laughs-upgrade.148717/post-5451703

But the basic gist of it is that there's nothing implying anything other than the Monitors weakened him, and Deagon has never proved something weakened him as such. It would be a complete assumption to assume he was weakened by something else, and if this assumption works here, we can apply it to every other CRT including scalings and say that "Character X could have been weakened" without any proof.

I then used an analogy where 10000 is split into a 1000 and a 100, which would reduce it to 8900. We don't say it got reduced to 8000, that's basic math. What happened to the missing 900? Deagon has not answered that.

Similarly, there's no reason to assume Mar lost any power more than that of the split off Monitors. Monitors have a certain level of power, that's all he lost. Deagon is asserting that Mar lost the Monitors' power, and that they also somehow took infinite power from Mar, which they somehow lost? And where was the Monitors losing such kind of power even stated? Did the power randomly go out of Mar when he was split, separate from the Monitors? Why, and when was that stated? Deagon's argument is completely based on assumptions and he has failed to address the numerous holes in his "theory".

What is the intelligence level of BWL?

1. Genius
2. Supergenius

He himself agrees BWL should get Supergenius but then, for some reason decided to straw man my argument for why Batman should get it. Naturally, his new arguments are also based on assumptions. My full evidence for the upgrade can be seen here- https://vsbattles.com/threads/trigo...batman-who-laughs-upgrade.148717/post-5463094

They have been stated to be equally intelligent specifically numerous times, along with a zillion other things that proves they are equals. Deagon is straw manning my argument into me scaling Batman to BWL purely because BWL is an alternate version of Batman, ignoring the evidence that states they are specifically equal, hell, we have statements from BWL himself for this. He ignored everything.

And the worst part of his argument is how he uses the Dark Knights to say they have different intelligence, because the Dark Knights don't scale to Batman or BWL in intelligence. But, why can't some alternate versions have different intelligence while some don't? Deagon has no answer. Opposite to what was stated for BWL, it was explicitly stated main Batman is smarter than the Dark Knights twice, and BWL fooled them. The Dark Knights are not as intelligent as Batman or BWL, but Batman and BWL are equals, which makes sense as well since the Dark Knights were supposed to be the powerhouses of their team while BWL was the brain. I see no reason why some alternate versions can have different intelligence and some can't the same.

So for this too, Deagon has nothing more than baseless assumptions, false assumptions at that.

 

[Transcending]

I explained that within the report. The fact that it is the name of a fallacy does not make it an appropriate thing to use amidst a discussion given that it is explicitly insulting.

How exactly is it insulting to use a fallacy? People can't use fallacies now? If I called you "pigheaded" alone then I did insult, but I didn't, I said you committed "Argument by Pigheadedness", that's not an insult.

I explained this to your directly. If you want to make the assertion that I am ignoring evidence (I wasn't) then you can simply say that without using an insult.

A fallacy is an error in an argument, and it's perfectly fine to assert someone committed a fallacy.

I'd like to, but I am not keen on being called "pigheaded" every time he does not like something I say, and I have asked him repeatedly to stop it. Note that he's also using the less common name for the fallacy as an excuse to call people pigheaded. It's prudent IMO that it is made clear that it's insulting and not appropriate for the forum.

I didn't say "Invincible Ignorance" because I didn't know Invincible Ignorance was another name for the fallacy, my knowledge of the fallacy had purely come from here-

Website 1- https://media.discordapp.net/attach...676916556967987/Argument_by_Pigheadedness.png

I did know Invincible Ignorance existed but I didn't know it was an alternate name for Argument by Pigheadedness, until I researched other websites for my post. Either way, what name I used is completely irrelevant. It's a real name for a fallacy whether you like it or not, and that is certainly valid. I am not obligated to use other names of a fallacy to please you.

 

[Deagonx]

We can understand he was weakened due to him just getting back his splinters but, there's nothing to say he was significantly weakened, that's a baseless assumption added by Deagon.

You readily admit that he was weakened, but at the same time claim this weakening meant literally nothing in terms of his actual power -- which is completely antithetical to the concept of being weakened. This argument makes no sense whatsoever.

But the basic gist of it is that there's nothing implying anything other than the Monitors weakened him, and Deagon has never proved something weakened him as such. It would be a complete assumption to assume he was weakened by something else

As usual, you have taken the approach of assuming your theory should he accepted by default without proof, and yet others must meet an arbitrary burden to point out the alternatives and then prove them in a way that you never did for your own claim.

We have no reason to think he was weakened by finite subtraction of each Nil Monitor's individual power. That's a total assumption.

They have been stated to be equally intelligent specifically numerous times

No, they haven't. You've attempted to extrapolate that from the scans, but they do not support your argument in the way you're suggesting. They merely speak to the basic fact that BWL is Bruce Wayne too.

It's a real name for a fallacy whether you like it or not, and that is certainly valid. I am not obligated to use other names of a fallacy to please you.

You've been asked by a mod to stop. Are you really going to bicker back and forth for the sole purpose of trying to retain your ability to call people pigheaded in the middle of a discussion rather than simply stating that you think they're overlooking evidence? That's a waste of everyone's time.

And to be clear, even removed from this specific example, your habit of constantly namedropping fallacies in a discussion is inflammatory and juvenile and should be done away with altogether. If you think there is an error in the reasoning, describe and demonstrate it rather than throwing out the name of a fallacy.

 

[Transcending]

You readily admit that he was weakened, but at the same time claim this weakening meant literally nothing in terms of his actual power -- which is completely antithetical to the concept of being weakened. This argument makes no sense whatsoever.

How doesn't it make any sense? If infinitesimal pieces of you get removed from you, you get infinitesimally weakened, that is, technically weakened but has no real impact.

As usual, you have taken the approach of assuming your theory should he accepted by default without proof, and yet others must meet an arbitrary burden to point out the alternatives and then prove them in a way that you never did for your own claim.

My "theory" isn't baseless, it has a base, that is, that only finite 4-B beings split from Mar and 4-B never reaches infinity, no matter how much you add it, finitely. A finite number subtracted from an uncountable infinity is still an uncountable infinity, that's math.

In your case however, you are bringing possibilities without any base, and asserting them as true. That's called Appeal to Possibility.

Random possibilities don't count here. If I try to downgrade Golden Wonder Woman by saying "TDK could have been infinitely weakened", it would get rejected immediately.

No, they haven't. You've attempted to extrapolate that from the scans, but they do not support your argument in the way you're suggesting. They merely speak to the basic fact that BWL is Bruce Wayne too.

No they don't, that's a blatant misinterpretation of the scans. Things like Batman being able to think like BWL, having the same mind, able to do everything BWL can, the only difference between them being in their morality, etc is decisive proof of equal intelligence.

You've been asked by a mod to stop. Are you really going to bicker back and forth for the sole purpose of trying to retain your ability to call people pigheaded in the middle of a discussion rather than simply stating that you think they're overlooking evidence? That's a waste of everyone's time.

The mod, I presume, haven't read my case and only yours. It's important to listen to both sides before a verdict, and so I think I can present my case, especially since you misinterpreted "Argument by Pigheadedness" into simply "pigheaded".

And to be clear, even removed from this specific example, your habit of constantly namedropping fallacies in a discussion is inflammatory and juvenile and should be done away with altogether. If you think there is an error in the reasoning, describe and demonstrate it rather than throwing out the name of a fallacy.

I don't constantly call out fallacies, calling out fallacies more than you does not mean I always do, if I wanted to call out every single fallacy you committed then a post as large as my previous large summarisation would have been made.

And it's not like you never call out fallacies either.

 

[Firestorm808]

Let's start off simple with Batman's intelligence.

What is the highest intelligence feat that he has on his own?

 

[Transcending]

Let's start off simple with Batman's intelligence.

What is the highest intelligence feat that he has on his own?

My personal favorite is that how he separated his subconscious from himself, and that subconscious created a robot called "Failsafe". Failsafe is so powerful that-

1: It could tank 8th metal charged with 3 quadrillion watts

2: Easily fight against members of the Justice League like Superman

3: Trying to beat it via time travel would dangerously damage the timeline

He also managed to create the Final Batsuit with Element X, a metal so powerful-

1: It was stated to forge everything in existence

2: It could warp the entire Multiverse

3: Was stated to be Bleed when refined

4: Is above Nth metal

 

[Firestorm808]

So I'm looking at Batman's Post-Flashpoint profile, and it says: At least Extraordinary Genius, potentially Supergenius.

Which feat on his profile gave him that possibly rating?

 

[Transcending]

So I'm looking at Batman's Post-Flashpoint profile, and it says: At least Extraordinary Genius, potentially Supergenius.

Which feat on his profile gave him that possibly rating?

First I want to note that I edited my previous post to add another feat.

Other than that, the "potentially" does not have any feat as of now, but because he was consistently stated to be equal to BWL, @Antvasima suggested adding it.

 

[Transcending]

Also, just pointing out that the Low 1-C Nabu discussion is still up.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have no issues with scaling Batman Int to BWL Int, but I am confused as to how BWL got Supergenius.

Did he do something that fits the criteria below?

Supergenius: The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence who are capable of creating impossibly advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology for extremely diverse purposes.

Take note that for a Supergenius rating to be given based on technological prowess, the character in question should be able to essentially warp reality as they wish on an at least universal (3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well.

 

[Transcending]

I have no issues with scaling Batman Int to BWL Int, but I am confused as to how BWL got Supergenius.

Did he do something that fits the criteria below?

Supergenius: The highest level of non-omniscient intellect, possessed by individuals with unfathomably superhuman intelligence who are capable of creating impossibly advanced physics-defying and reality-warping fantasy technology for extremely diverse purposes.

Take note that for a Supergenius rating to be given based on technological prowess, the character in question should be able to essentially warp reality as they wish on an at least universal (3-A) scale with their inventions, or even use them to overpower tier 1 entities for higher cases. Simply defying the laws of physics with futuristic technology is very common for Extraordinary Geniuses as well.

Isn't overpowering Tier 2 beings Supergenius?

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not exactly sure.

 

[Transcending]

I'm not exactly sure.

Just in case it's not, BWL was going to use the Monitor, the Astral Brain, and himself, to destroy the whole Multiverse and before that, he was going to destroy the Multiverse by messing with some frequency. Refer to this-

For technology, this could also work.

 

[Transcending]

So I found this scan on BWL int=Batman int, perhaps the most decisive one yet- https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/918540111065526312/1077964532196057198/image0.jpg

What's even better is that after saying BWL is just as smart as Batman, the scan said Luthor is the smartest man alive, meaning Luthor>Batman=BWL. Both Luthor and Batman should scale to BWL's int.

 

[Deagonx]

Blurbs on promotional material are no replacement for actual feats

 

[Transcending]

Blurbs on promotional material are no replacement for actual feats

The scan isn't some random blurb, it's from an actual comic(Titans: Burning Rage #5) and the scan wasn't some pure promotional material, it was an official scan by DC giving an expert analysis of the characters and an explanation of their abilities. Why would DC lie about the characters' abilities? Why would they give a false expert analysis?

Also, here's another scan by Scott Snyder explaining BWL is the same as Batman with the only difference being that he's evil-

Anyway, I am not gonna help you in stonewalling this thread any longer, if you want to address this post, feel free to, a mod is fine with scaling Batman to BWL. I will continue the discussion with him.

 

[Deagonx]

The scan isn't some random blurb, it's from an actual comic(Titans: Burning Rage #5) and the scan wasn't some pure promotional material, it was an official scan by DC giving an expert analysis of the characters and an explanation of their abilities.

I am aware that the blurb was in a comic. I never said otherwise.

Why would DC lie about the characters' abilities? Why would they give a false expert analysis?

I never said they "lied." I never said the expert analysis was "false." You're putting words in my mouth.

Also, here's another scan by Scott Snyder explaining BWL is the same as Batman with the only difference being that he's evil-

This is what the scan actually says.

"The Batman Who Laughs is a Bruce Wayne with no morality at all."

As I have repeatedly said, all of these scans just repeat -- almost ad nauseum -- that BWL is an alternate-universe version of Bruce. All of these statements about them having the same skills and mind are fine for a general heuristic and understanding of the character, but it does not mean that in practice that they are capable of exactly the same things. My objection is, as it has been since the beginning, that being an alternate universe version of Batman isn't enough for scaling if the reality of their feats is different.

And we know that they are different in some ways. Batman explicitly said that BWL is faster, but Batman is stronger. So their strength and speed are not identical, even though you post several scans that said they're "the same."

So, no, BWL is not just "Batman without morals." Their stats are different, we know definitively from the comic that BWL is faster but weaker. Based on their feats, he appears to be smarter as well. You can continue piling on these random statements of them being "the same" but in the context of the story we know that isn't literally true in the way you're attempting to apply it.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

I am aware that the blurb was in a comic. I never said otherwise.


I never said they "lied." I never said the expert analysis was "false." You're putting words in my mouth.


This is what the scan actually says.

"The Batman Who Laughs is a Bruce Wayne with no morality at all."

As I have repeatedly said, all of these scans just repeat -- almost ad nauseum -- that BWL is an alternate-universe version of Bruce. All of these statements about them having the same skills and mind are fine for a general heuristic and understanding of the character, but it does not mean that in practice that they are capable of exactly the same things. My objection is, as it has been since the beginning, that being an alternate universe version of Batman isn't enough for scaling if the reality of their feats is different.

And we know that they are different in some ways. Batman explicitly said that BWL is faster, but Batman is stronger. So their strength and speed are not identical, even though you post several scans that said they're "the same."

So, no, BWL is not just "Batman without morals." Their stats are different, we know definitively from the comic that BWL is faster but weaker. Based on their feats, he appears to be smarter as well. You can continue piling on these random statements of them being "the same" but in the context of the story we know that isn't literally true in the way you're attempting to apply it.

Even if it was a blurb, why would that make it invalid? You didn't say it wasn't from a comic, but it being from a comic means that it's an official material by DC itself in the source material. Saying it is a blurb does not dismiss it.

Firstly, not all of the scans say BWL is an alternate version of Batman, and even the ones that do, say something else to support the idea of them having the same intelligence. Transcending's argument is not that they have equal intelligence because they are alternate versions and the scans directly support his actual claims. BWL wouldn't say he has the mind of Batman and the Joker's insanity if Batman isn't as smart as him and the Joker isn't as insane as him. Now, being an alternate version alone isn't enough of course, which is why Transcending's argument is different. In the cases alternate versions aren't equals, either nothing is stated implying they are, and/or there are statements against them being equals(as in the case of the Dark Knights, who, btw, also had their origins in the same comic as that of BWL).

Yeah, the authors were clearly not saying they were equal physically, they were pretty explicit on their intension about intelligence. I mean, physically speaking, the teeth alone is enough to say they aren't the same. Saying the authors were referring to physically would be a large misinterpretation of what they were saying.

 

[Transcending]

I never said they "lied." I never said the expert analysis was "false." You're putting words in my mouth.

I just wanna take care of this rq. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, it was pretty clearly the implication you were giving, combined with your past behaviour against blurbs. Like in some of our previous arguments on blurbs, you argued they have no level of validity(despite being official material, although in this case, the material is from the comics themselves while the blurbs were from websites last time, making the current "blurb", even more reliable).

If the blurb here is not valid, considering you disagree with what it is saying, you would indeed be saying it lied and that the analysis is false.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Deagonx

In your opinion, does BWL or Batman have any feats that meet Supergenius requirements?

 

[Deagonx]

Even if it was a blurb, why would that make it invalid? You didn't say it wasn't from a comic, but it being from a comic means that it's an official material by DC itself in the source material. Saying it is a blurb does not dismiss it.

The source material is the actual events of the comic, the statements that characters make, and what actually happens in the story line. Blurbs and promotional material are extremely low-quality evidence and should generally be disregarded. Multiple staff have confirmed this in other discussions about the use of blurbs as evidence.

It's not in the book, it's in the publicity blurb, which is outside the book, and unless you demonstrate otherwise, isn't written by the author and is by nature hyperbolic.

Yeah I'm with damage here. This would be like using the back of novel covers as canon feats or power scaling justifications. Those nexts are editor hype blurbs that are to get readers interested in the next chapter/issue. They're not present in the volumes because there's nothing to hype. Its at best secondary canon and really should just generally not be used.

Yeah, I agree they're printed in the magazine version. But I disagree with them being considered canon.

Also it comes from a cover blurb that means little in terms of usability

Promotional material and blurbs are not considered good evidence nor are they generally canon or written by the authors.

Transcending's argument is not that they have equal intelligence because they are alternate versions and the scans directly support his actual claims. BWL wouldn't say he has the mind of Batman and the Joker's insanity if Batman isn't as smart as him and the Joker isn't as insane as him

Transcending produced multiple scans in which he said, as justification for this scaling, that BWL and Batman are "the same." You cannot backpedal this now and claim it was just about intelligence when the argument was repeatedly made that they are the same except different in morals, therefore their intelligence should scale.

 

[Deagonx]

@Deagonx

In your opinion, does BWL or Batman have any feats that meet Supergenius requirements?

Maybe for BWL, but I haven't seen any for Batman. I agreed to BWL receiving Supergenius because I didn't really have strong feelings about it one way or the other, but this was the justification provided:

The Batman Who Laughs beat the Monitor and constructed a machine to destroy the Multiverse using him, the astral brain, and himself(Dark Nights: Metal #6). He also tortured him(Justice League #27) and there was nothing the Monitor could do to beat him(Dark Nights: The Batman Who Laughs #1). Additionally, he made a plan to betray, outsmart, and beat Perpetua as BWL(something he succeeded on) and manipulated her into replacing Lex Luthor with him. So he should get Supergenius intelligence and an upgrade in his AP with preparations.

Upon reflection, the only piece of evidence that really speaks to possibly Supergenius is the machine, which BWL says: "Destroy everything, that's the idea. With positive energy (you), negative energy (the Anti-Monitor's astral brain), and dark energy (me), we'll blow apart the realm above."

I think that is possibly Supergenius if we interpret that as being able to destroy the multiverse. However, outsmarting Perpetua is not "Supergenius" level, and manipulating her is not "Supergenius" level, and absolutely shouldn't be included in the justification. Torturing and capturing the Monitor doesn't qualify IMO because Monitor was weakened.

 

[Firestorm808]

If that's the case, I'm fine with possibly SG for both of them. Shouldn't be that controversial. We just have to cut out the unnecessary stuff on BWL's profile.