Problem with DC's 2-C ratings

[Ultima_Reality]

Taking this from the DC Cosmology Page:

This section will describe universes with a lowercase "u" when talking about individual universes within the Orrery, such as Earth-1 or Earth-2. DC's official stance is that each numbered "Earth" includes the universe itself + alternate timelines of that universe + alternate dimensions

So, currently we acknowledge this, where Dan DiDio says that Earths in DC contain not just the regular universe, but also all alternate timelines of that universe, as well as multiple alternate dimensions. Yet:

The Orrery of Worlds encompasses 52 universes and the Bleed Space between and around them and exists in four dimensions according to Mr. Mxyzptlk which, in Snyder's term, are point, line, depth and time. When Mxy described the dimensionality of the multiverse, he did so almost verbatim in a way that represented a 4-D space-time continuum, meaning the Orrery itself is 2-C. After that, there are other universes outside of those known to the inhabitants of the Orrery and an infinite number of timelines stored in Hypertime, making a 2-A structure.

So the Orrery of Worlds and the Bleedspace which it encompasses are treated as 2-C structures. Darkseid damaging the Orrery with his fall from the Sphere of the Gods is rated as a 2-C feat right now, and so is Perpetua and the Batman Who Laughs threatening to destroy the Bleed, the space containing the Earths, in their fight.

This in spite of the fact that the 52 universes contained in it each contain what is acknowledged to be an infinite number of timelines, meaning each of them should be 2-A.

So, yeah.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It seems good :3

 

[Ayewale]

Agree

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Welp, I've discussed this privately so me

 

[Deagonx]

We've discussed this on Discord to an extent, but one of the reasons why we don't currently treat it as 2-A is that the existence of timelines appears incidental to the state of the verse.

When Perpetua and BWL had their fight it was said that hypertimelines were dying out, as a second order effect of the fight. So with Darkseid damaging the Orrery, it doesn't actually require him to physically damage an infinite multiverse.

 

[Eseseso]

OHMIGOD IS ULTIMA UPGRADING DC AND UNDOING THE HORRIFIC DOWNGRADES

OP looks good.

 

[Planck69]

Seems alright to me.

 

[LordTracer]

Makes sense, I agree with the OP.

 

[KingTempest]

Wtf

Ok this looks good but damn

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We've discussed this on Discord to an extent, but one of the reasons why we don't currently treat it as 2-A is that the existence of timelines appears incidental to the state of the verse.

When Perpetua and BWL had their fight it was said that hypertimelines were dying out, as a second order effect of the fight. So with Darkseid damaging the Orrery, it doesn't actually require him to physically damage an infinite multiverse.

That doesn't really matter if you either:

a) Destroy the entirety of an Earth with no chain reaction involved

b) Damage the entire space in which those Earths are contained (Since said spaces would be 2-A due to containing 52 2-A structures)

Perpetua seems like she can do the former and does the latter in her fight with Batkek. And Darkseid seems to be rated as scaling to the whole of the Orrery, which would include the aforementioned containing space, so, yeah.

 

[MeiouHades]

So, did I happen to be thrown into one of those parallel worlds because this doesn't seem real.

Hard agree anyway.

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with Ultima on this, as insignificant as my vote may be due to my CGM status.

I will now tag some staff to take a look.

@Theglassman12 @Lonkitt @Emirp sumitpo @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Firestorm808 @LordGriffin1000 @Just_a_Random_Butler

 

[Eseseso]

So all 2-C people in DC will be 2-A, or just a few?

 

[Excellence616]

I agree

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

I agree

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This in spite of the fact that the 52 universes contained in it each contain what is acknowledged to be an infinite number of timelines, meaning each of them should be 2-A.

What's the evidence for this?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree simply because it adds to the list of likelihoods that it's an outlier for the Post-Crisis DC Heralds.

But in all seriousness, this looks accurate.

 

[Stefano4444]

So all 2-C people in DC will be 2-A, or just a few?

Characters like Darkseid, Anti-Monitor, Neron and The Spectre may scale, less unsure for the rest.

I agree simply because it adds to the list of likelihoods that it's an outlier for the Post-Crisis DC Heralds.

For most Post-Crisis sure, but i do think that Rebirth may had better argument to scale if Pre Crisis feats can be apply to them.

 

[Robo432343]

What's the evidence for this?

ok

 

[Stefano4444]

ok

Wasn't that in reference to the Hypertime rather than the Universe?

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

I agree with this, it seems consistent with other statements of universes containing infinite timelines or futures such as this, this, and this. IIRC the Timestream (aka the New Earth Universe during the 90s) was somewhat depicted as a 4D universe containing numerous timelines.

 

[MeiouHades]

When I'm in a controversial threads competition and my opponent is Ultima:

 

[Firestorm808]

Will reread our current stuff on Hypertime and get back.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

I agree with Ultima on this, as insignificant as my vote may be due to my CGM status.

they should mod you up with thread mod too

also agree

 

[Eseseso]

Including Ultima, the current tally is 5 in favor of 2-A and 1 against.

Are we just waiting for Firestorm or?

 

[Firestorm808]

At the moment, DiDio is just an Editor's statement. I'm looking for in comic scans that would support these alternate hypertime timelines existing within the orrey.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I agree simply because it adds to the list of likelihoods that it's an outlier for the Post-Crisis DC Heralds.

The DC heralds upgrade has already been accepted and just hasn't been applied yet. If this thread passes, all feats affecting an entire Earth will henceforth be 2-A in DC.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

The DC heralds upgrade has already been accepted and just hasn't been applied yet. If this thread passes, all feats affecting an entire Earth will henceforth be 2-A in DC.

On that note, will the DC Heralds be 2-A because of this?

 

[LordTracer]

On that note, will the DC Heralds be 2-A because of this?

Can we wait until this thread is actually finished before worrying about that?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

On that note, will the DC Heralds be 2-A because of this?

The exact scaling hasn't been figured out yet. This is the list of feats, some of which affect one or multiple Earths:

• Infinite-Man's power can sculpt space-time, could destroy the Universe, including the timestream(Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September 1994)
• Orion's Astro-Force is considered capable of stopping what can annihilate the cosmos(Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol. 1 #4, June 1997)
• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
• Superman trades blows with Time Trapper Superman-Prime, but is overpowered. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #5, September 2009)
• Ion could remake the Universe(Green Lantern Vol. 3 #145, February 2002)
• Mr Terrific, who was certain Wally had Infinite and Incalculable power, isn't certain he's more powerful than Superman, implying he considers Superman to also have Infinite Power (The Flash (Rebirth) #775, October 2021)
• Superman states he could make the entire Phantom Zone cease to exist if he really put his head to it. (Superman Vol 5 #5 January 2019) and Superman shakes the Phantom Zone with one punch(Superman (2018) (Rebirth) #6, February 2019)
  • The Phantom Zone is an anti-Universe (Action Comics Vol. 2 #11, September 2012)
  • The Phantom Zone has been called Infinite (JLA Vol. 1 #36, December, 1999)
• Superman punches out Barbatos(Dark Nights: Death Metal Trinity Crisis, November 2020)
• Wonder Woman withstands and deflects a fireball with infinite power. (Wonder Woman Vol. 2 #21, October 1988)
• Superman could have stopped Hank Hall Monarch. (Adventures of Superman Annual #3, October 1991)
• Child Brainiac gained the power of an infinite space Tesseract and Superman and Ultraman are capable of taking attacks from him. (Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #605, August 2002)
• Superman's clash with his Golden Age counterpart shattered the boundaries of Space-Time and changed timelines(Superman Vol. 2 #226, April 2006, Action Comics Vol. 1 #836, April 2006, Adventures of Superman Vol. 1 #649, April 2006)
• Captain Atom is sent flying by someone he compares to an out of control Superman, and believes he'd need all his power to defeat her(Captain Atom: Armageddon Vol. 1 #7, June 2006)
• Superboy is able to damage Superboy-Prime(Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
• Superman tanks a blast from Mordru and harms him. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds Vol. 1 #4, June 2009)
• The GLC Central Battery can become as large as and destroy the entire Universe(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #224, May 1988)
  • Context: The yellow impurity was seizing control of the battery, so now it’s reclaiming all the green energy, pulling it back into itself in order to keep that impurity contained. Soon, the Central Power Battery will siphon all of the green energy back into itself. It will go on to overload, causing a massive power buildup. This will, in turn, trigger an explosion, transforming OA itself into an immense black hole, large enough to draw the entire universe into it.
• Hal escapes (Crispus Allen) Black Lantern Spectre's grasp and knocks out Black Lantern Crispus Allen’s jaw(Green Lantern Vol 4 #50 March 2010)
• Hal kills Krona with a blast through the chest (Green Lantern Vol 4 #67 August 2011)
  • Krona takes Atrocitus' Napalm breath and bite to his neck. (Green Lantern Vol 4 #62 March 2011)
  • Atrocitus peak scales to the Butcher (Green Lantern Vol 4 #61 February 2011)
    • Butcher James Kim is able to severely damage CA Spectre
    • Atrocitus’s spear construct pierces Butcher James Kim
    • Atrocitus was confident to chain the Butcher
• Superman one-shot Auteur.io(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #21, October 2021)
  • Auteur.io created the Archive of Worlds, an archive of realities (Batman/Superman Vol. #19, August 2021),
  • and could destroy them if he didn't like them(Batman/Superman Vol. 2 #17, June 2021)
• Flodo encompasses and destroys an evil Galaxy(Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #219, December 1987)
  • Calculation
• Supergirl survived a barrage that could've brought down Galaxies (Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow Vol. 1 #7, March 2022)
• Characters with Infinite Man's power had Infinite Power (Legionnaires Vol. 1 #18, September, 1994), as was stated many times(Valor Vol. 1 #23, September 1994)
  • Infinite Man is as powerful as Darkseid (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #18, January 1986) and stalemated the Time Trapper (Legion of Super-Heroes Vol. 3 #50, September 1988)
• Superman survives the collapse of the universe. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Death implies that WITS really happened. (Superman: Where Is Thy Sting, 2001)
  • Lois references WITS in Rebirth. (Action Comics Vol. 1 #1030, June 2021)
• Superman overpowers Nebula Man, who is stated to be a universe. (JLA Classified #2, March 2005)
  • Nebula Man is confirmed to be a universe. (Seven Soldiers: Frankenstein #4, May 2006)
  • Nebula Man was going yo destroy the universe. (Stargirl: The Lost Children #6, May 2023)
• Ganthet creates a construct to shield himself from the Big Bang (Green Lantern: Ganthet's Tale, November 1992)
• Random Gods of New Genesis are capable of creating universes. (Mister Miracle Vol. 3 #1, April 1996)
• Superman staggered the Red King, made him yell in pain, and survived an attack from him while weakened (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007), and was confident he could fight the Red King for an extended period of time(JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
  • The Red King destroyed realities (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #35, April 2007) multiple times, with these realities containing multiple Universes (JLA Classified Vol. 1 #36, May 2007)
• Hal Jordan knocks off Spectre (Crispus Allen)'s jaw, staggering him and freeing the Guardians, and stabs him with help from the Guardians (Green Lantern Vol. 4 #50, March 2010)
• Wally West fights Pre Crisis Reverse Flash (The Flash Vol.2 #224, September 2005)
• Starbreaker overpowered the person who merged Universes(Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
  • Superman and Hal Jordan have fought Starbreaker's pull (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #29, March 2009), and Icon and John Stewart have staggered Starbreaker (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #34, August 2009)
• Superman survives Aztek's self destruction of 4th Dimensional energy(JLA Vol. 1 #41, May 2000)
  • Aztek's energy had previously been described as Limitless 4th Dimensional energy (JLA Vol 1 #10 September, 1997)
• Superman fights and takes hits from the Entropy Aegis while explicitly stated to be holding back. (Superman: The Man of Steel #134, March 2003). The Entropy Aegis is stated to be the power to remake and destroy the universe. (Superman Versus Darkseid: Apokolips Now, March 2003)
• Superman briefly fights Time Trapper Superman-Prime. (Final Crisis: Legion of Three Worlds #4, June 2009)
• Superman, Captain Atom, Darkstar and the Ray contribute to the energy of a Big Bang. (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
• Dreggs have the power of a Universe(New Gods Vol. 3 #26, May 1991)
  • Darkseid could've destroyed Dreggs if they weren't already did (New Gods Vol 3 #6, July 1989)
• The Guardians believed Kyle Rayner could kill Alan Scott possessed by the Starheart, (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #47, September 2010), and fought an Obsidian/Jade merge (Justice League of America Vol. 2 #48, October 2010), both the halves of the light and dark of the Starheart(Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #42, October 2010), while gradually losing power.
  • The Starheart can obliterate reality (DC Comics Official Website)
• Hal Jordan created Willworld, an entire Universe inside his ring that's described as an Infinite Sea(Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • This is said to be something in all Lantern's rings (Green Lantern: Willworld, July 2001)
  • Kyle Rayner is also stated to have a world with no end inside his ring (Green Lantern Vol. 3 #80, November 1996)
  • Hal Jordan having a Universe inside his ring was brought back up in Rebirth (The Green Lantern Vol. 1 #7, July 2019)
• Hal Jordan sent tremors across the entire Emotional Spectrum (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps September, 2016), which has been called an infinite web of interlinked planes and realms (The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained, November, 2021)
• Extant defeats Kent Nelson Doctor Fate (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time Vol. 1 #3, September 1994)
• Guardians and Controllers have Big Bang level power(Justice League: A Midsummer's Nightmare Vol. 1 #3, November 1996)
  • As mentioned before, human Lanterns have fought Guardians when they were amped. They also fought and overpowered the Controllers before being mind controlled (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #36, March 2018). Hal also believes he could defeat someone who defeated the Guardians (Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps Vol. 1 #32, January 2018), with Guardians being compared in power to individual power batteries (Doomsday Annual, December 1995).
• Kyle Rayner survives being blasted by the Zero Hour Big Bang (Zero Hour: Crisis in Time #0, September 1994)
• The U-Bomb was created to specifically test Hal's relationship with his own ring, and off of him disarming it, they decided to make him a component for the Miracle Machine, specifically noted to be able to easily remake the Universe here. (The Green Lantern #12, October 2019)
• Hal Jordan contained and reduced the explosion of Golden Destroyer to below atomic scale, which would have destroyed 2 universes. (The Green Lantern: Season Two #9, January 2021)
• Post-Crisis Superman fought the Anti-Monitor alongside Pre-Crisis Flash and Supergirl (Superman: Lois and Clark #1, December 2015)

 

[Deagonx]

The other thing is, we currently treat alternate timelines as independent numbered Earths, based on the fact that Jaxon's alternate timeline became Earth-295. In addition to the fact that the creation of the 52 Earths was described as happening through fractal branches in Hypertime

So I am not sure it fully stands to reason that each of these 52 also has infinitely many others via Hypertime. World Forger also notes that the universe was infinite, was reduced to a single universe, and then became 52 universes.

 

[Stefano4444]

The exact scaling hasn't been figured out yet. This is the list of feats, some of which affect one or multiple Earths:

We would also need to be careful about the context to see if the Universal feats where about just the regular universe, or if it could all other all alternative timelines and dimensions.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[TimeTrapperFanBoy]

So the current tally is 6 staff agrees and 2 staff disagrees, Grace?

 

[KLOL506]

Content Mod votes and CGM votes don't count.

I suppose I can tag just a few more.

@Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Emirp sumitpo

 

[Eseseso]

Content Mod votes and CGM votes don't count.

I suppose I can tag just a few more.

@Elizhaa @LordGriffin1000 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Emirp sumitpo

Including Ultima, the current tally of voting staff is 5 in favor of 2-A and 1 or 2 against.

 

[Elizhaa]

OP is fine.

 

[Lonkitt]

Pretty straightforward. I agree

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Agreed, honestly.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

And that's wraps