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Ultima_Reality
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  • Hi Ultima,I have a question about tier 1:

    Should it be one to two higher levels of uncountably infinity greater than a standard universal model to reach low 1-C instead of just one to two higher levels of infinity?From what I understand simply being infinitely greater would not be enough,just like 2-A being infinitely bigger than low 2-C but never close to tier 1,so I think uncountably infinite is more correct
    Planck69
    Planck69
    In the context of the setting, they are. Each cosmos has its own River of Time and cosmoses are just small structures in the wider Primal Chaos Void, the present era of Cue Ying's Origin World. Though, there's not much else talked about regarding it. I'll check out any more quotes.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Is there any quote explicitly showing each cosmos has its own River of Time, though? If it's in the blog, then I probably missed it.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    There was IIRC, must've forgotten to put it in the blog, I'll go look for it and post it here.

    Though, that's the general implication at least. The River of Time doesn't contain the lifeforms of other cosmoses, which it would if it was shared. It's synonymous with the law system of a cosmos, of which each cosmos has its own. Flows of time vary etc.
    Sup, I was wondering; if a character has the same number of dimensions within their existence as the temporal dimension of the verse, would that count as Immeasurable speed?
    BluudyManikin777
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Say, if a character is 5 dimensional, and the temporal dimension of the character’s verse is also 5 dimensional, would they be given Immeasurable, via being able to move along that axis by nature of their existence?
    Not necessarily, no. If the setting is a multiverse, for instance, this character could also just be an inhabitant of a parallel universe that has 5 spatial dimensions, but is still bounded by 1 temporal dimension. If the higher coordinate space in which they exist is orthogonal to the time-axis itself and allows them to see it as a monolith to move through at will, though, then, yeah, Immeasurable would be warranted.
    BluudyManikin777
    BluudyManikin777
    I don’t understand some of the words, so if a character’s existence is 5D, and the temporal dimension of the verse is explicitly 5D as well, is that Immeasurable? I mean, since this example character has 5 dimensions in its physiology, it would automatically be assumed it can move along 5 dimensional axes right?
    Hi Ultima, could you give your opinion on this thread. To give a brief summary - a very certain demon fellow we know and love, absorbed and physically merged himself with a 4-D black hole and it became an actual part/extension of his physical being, so wouldn't this count as Higher-Dimensional Existence?
    Hi Ultima
    Sorry for these very stupid questions
    Is it possible for an infinite number of Tier 0 characters to exist in a certain verse? And even with enough evidence to prove they are indeed Tier 0 would it be accepted ?(I should have posted this to QA, but this is asking for your opinion). Even if these characters have only scaling, because they lack hax (same as Xeno goku but tier 0) or non smurf and glass canon (physically 10B or 10A)?
    And this verse is not a joke, fanfic or made up just for the sake of Debate and power bullshit like the Suggsverse (something on the wiki, be it Dragon ball or whatever)
    Emirp sumitpo
    Emirp sumitpo
    I'm not ultima but the Cthulhu mythos has an infinite amount of tier 0s via the archetypes, although that might change with the revision
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    It is possible, yeah.
    Hi ultima, sorry if this bothers you
    It's just that I have three questions regarding the Tiering system which are
    1. Destroy Aleph 2 universes as Low-1A or Low-1C (6D). Note that context and verse are the Set of real numbers and any other set whose cardinal is 2^Aleph 0 is greater than aleph 1 (unknown)
    2. If a verse has Higher realms/planes of existence and in the lowest plane of existence already contains both 3D universes and 2D pocket universes is a cross section of 3D. So is the difference between lower and higher planes of existence greater than the difference between dimensions? If so, what is their tier?
    3. As for the Composite hierarchy and the distinction between fiction and reality, if the entities in the Higher layer consider the stories or realities of the Lower layer to be nothing more than just fiction and tiny dimensions, even consider the difference between the sizes of each of them to be non-existent, so any story from finite size and setting of an ordinary person's life to the entire infinite set of multiverses (each is 2A) is the same, differ only in complexity. The "tiny dimensions" differ only in scale for entities in the higher layer in terms of numbers (i.e. 2 stories > 1 story regardless of the size and spacetime of the two sides), and even that distinction is even more meaningless if there is a story that contains all of them. So does each story have a Low-1C level in terms of nature? And the higher layer entity is 6D or just 5D? Also, this has to do with a verse that you made a revision (Supernatural)
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Destroy Aleph 2 universes as Low-1A or Low-1C (6D). Note that context and verse are the Set of real numbers and any other set whose cardinal is 2^Aleph 0 is greater than aleph 1 (unknown)
    Hard to say here, since Low 1-A is specifically supposed to be a space of dimension 2^aleph-0, which we just so happen to equate to aleph-1 by assuming the Continuum Hypothesis to be true, for simplicity's sake. If we just don't know if aleph-2 is equal to or larger than the cardinality of the continuum under the system which the verse presents, it's pretty complicated to tier. Closest thing I can think of would be an absurdly high level of 2-A, since Low 1-C is likewise supposed to be reached by a set of universes with cardinality 2^aleph-0, too.

    If a verse has Higher realms/planes of existence and in the lowest plane of existence already contains both 3D universes and 2D pocket universes is a cross section of 3D. So is the difference between lower and higher planes of existence greater than the difference between dimensions?
    Not necessarily, no, since, in this case, we'd just scale that above the size of the largest construct shown to be contained in the lower plane in question. So, a realm that stands immediately above it would just be Low 2-C with optimal assumptions.

    As for the Composite hierarchy and the distinction between fiction and reality, if the entities in the Higher layer consider the stories or realities of the Lower layer to be nothing more than just fiction and tiny dimensions, even consider the difference between the sizes of each of them to be non-existent, so any story from finite size and setting of an ordinary person's life to the entire infinite set of multiverses (each is 2A) is the same, differ only in complexity.
    Not necessarily, no, unless there's more context to that difference: If, say, the difference between a higher layer and a lower one is explicitly greater than the difference between higher and lower-dimensional spaces, then it can be higher, yeah.
    Hey, Ultima.
    If you don't mind me asking, is it possible to surpass the Mathiverse?
    I know you might be busy so take your time to answer.
    Yo Ultima, do you think this can qualify for tier 1?
    liluzivert
    liluzivert
    Also, would you also get immeasurable for surpassing space and time?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Also, would you also get immeasurable for surpassing space and time?
    I'm not too sure about that, honestly. While, yes, the world which Mario accessed through Cutout is described as transcending the boundaries of space and time, the perspective which he accesses while using the ability seems to be purely spatial, and doesn't seem to include the temporal part of the universe at all, seeing as he clearly isn't witnessing past and future events in the timeline while using it.

    This connects to my uncertainties regarding Low 1-C, too. Is there anything reinforcing the statement on spacetime transcendence here?
    liluzivert
    liluzivert
    Actually yes. 4D would actually contradict the idea of it being a spatial dimension superior to time. If they wanted to imply that he was 4D, they would have said he's either crossing space time or going outside of it, but they use the specific kanji "cho" to say he is completely superior. It's clear they are referring to spatial dimensions (considering it's constant throughout the series), so it would be odd that Mario is stated to be superior to time and space dimensionally without actually being more than it.

    I was gonna add this to my blog, but I think a better interpretation of 5D is Mario viewing his entire world as a unrealistic sheet as opposed to a real place. A reality-fiction difference. Seeing as how it falls down on the screen for him to edit, as well as the fact that just cutting spacetime like paper specifically is unrealistic (even in this series.)

    The idea that it's flat too is something i kinda want to drop, because it seems confusing to people, but I'd also argue that 4D wouldn't work there either, if he was 4D then he would be able to see his timeline as space. It actually makes no sense for him to view a world that is a 4D space time continuum and then see the entire thing as flat. If he was going to a different 4D universe without viewing his world then I could see it, but here, seeing the entire world as flat as opposed to seeing time as a space means that 4D doesn't really work here.

    As a whole though, there's also multiple statements of the same "transcend time and space, transcend dimensions". And interdimensional range gets contradicted by both statements and visuals.
    hey Ultima, is this maybe Doctor who tier 1 statement

    Next up, we have the fact that pi is also a transcendental number. The concept of a transcendental number is quite a modern one given that it was only first defined in the 18th Century by a well-known mathematician called Leonard Euler (who incidentally also has an irrational number named after him – the number e).

    Transcendental numbers are briefly mentioned in a Big Finish Main Range audio drama starring the Sixth Doctor called …ish (2002), written by Phil Pascoe, who incidentally has also recently published The Black Archive entry on the Sixth Doctor serial Timelash. The script itself is quite a verbose one and is sure to appeal to any budding lexicographers as the plot itself involves a character trying to discover the ‘Omniverbum’, a word that is infinitely long and transcends all meaning. Anyone who uncovers its existence would then cease to exist as they fall victim to, and I mean this quite precisely, a literal black hole. However, Phil’s script rather unfortunately gets the definition… not quite correct. Here’s what one of the characters states near the beginning of Part Three:
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Late, but, if input is still needed: No. Transcendental numbers aren't proof of Tier 1 on their own, if that's what you're asking about.
    Oliver_de_jesus
    Oliver_de_jesus
    Thanks for your time
    You missed a very important detail in this thread that completely puts Low 1-C Kirby into perspective. People are starting to agree with it more and more.
    Can you come back to the thread and check this out please? No hurry though.
    Hi Ultima_Reality
    Can i ask a little question? Can a place with time be 1-A? I'm not talking about a character, I mean a place.
    Hi ultima
    Two questions about Higher dimensions of time that I hope you can answer for me
    1/ A "large" timeline containing both versions of the current timeline and the erased timeline (because someone rewind time in that timeline to create the current timeline or something that erased it) as those things exist in points/periods of time already exists on that "big" timeline. So is this large timeline eligible for Higher temporal dimension and L1C ?
    2/ A world where all timelines and all of Their past/future (The flow of time) gathers as its normal space or something on it, so doing heavy damage in this world will destroy all those timelines and All Rifts of time (which are Literally rifts of time and also isolated Spacetime/history) regardless of size from more than one planet to an entire 2A multiverse always appear in this world as Finite spheres in space (not its portals, but the literal Rifts themselves) and things that take time to recover (ex: Dragon balls in the DB) can all be used intermittently customary in this World for the reasons mentioned above. So is this world a Higher temporal dimension and eligible for L1C?
    Hello Ultima. I was wondering, do these two scans justify higher dimensions within DC having a reality to fiction difference over the lower?

    The first scan features Allen Adam comparing how our universe appears from a higher dimensional perspective to how we see a comic book. Within the analogy he compares the perception of the universe to being flat like a comic book, and with moving through time being similar to flipping through comic book pages.
    Scan 1

    The second scan features a group sixth dimensional beings called the Cathexis who see the lower reality across flat screens.
    Scan 2
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    I'd say so, yeah. Captain Adam stating a higher-dimensional being could pick up a lower-dimensional continuum like a comicbook filled with weightless drawings is as blatant as you can get in that regard.
    Xearsay
    Xearsay
    Ok, thank you.
    Hello sir, sorry if I am disturbing you at this hour, can you tell me if a huge expanse 'X' is composed of 99+ timelines (each containing countless number of universes and on a much higher level of existence than the previous one), then will the expanse 'X' shall qualify as a low 1C structure or a 2B structure?
    Feel free to answer this question at anytime you want. It will be a huge help. Thank you.
    Hey ultima, i have a question. If a verse has a mahlo cardinal number of layers stacked, and each layer sees the lower layer as fiction, what tier is it?
    • Like
    Reactions: InfiniteCosmology
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Transcending the concept of dimensions is a statement whose tier depends on what the verse has demonstrated. We don't usually include higher cardinals in them, since they tend to exceed the syntax of the universe of sets in which lower ones are defined, and thus need to have their existence declared as a separate axiom. So, we usually just restrict it to 1-A or so. High 1-A if the verse entertains the notion of spaces with dimension 2^2^2-aleph-0 and onwards.
    Ultra_instinct_issei
    Ultra_instinct_issei
    Then, if a verse has shown a mahlo cardinal number of spatial dimensions, and THEN a statement saying saying "this character transcends the concept of dimensions" That will qualify for tier 0, correct?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Yeah, pretty much.
    Hey Ultima, can I ask you a question about universal space times? It’s being brought up in a thread, and is stopping progress. Only if you’re free, if not thanks anyways.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Sure, ask away.
    Comicgyal
    Comicgyal
    Thanks, the standards for it are still a bit confusing to me, but I think I’ve figured some stuff out.

    Anyways thanks to our translator, we’ve been able to get this statement from Bayonettas guidebook:

    “Aesir possessed the power of being an "observer of history", and was said to live in a dimension different from ours, observing history from a perspective that transcends time and space, where multiple possibilities overlap simultaneously.”

    I know a statement saying a character transcends time and space isn’t enough, but it’s a small start given what the quote is referring to. Since the dimension exists outside of their space time, and exists above it.

    So what other pieces am I missing exactly, to make the argument more sound?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Late again, but, whatever.

    In any case, to prove Low 1-C, you'd at least have to show that the dimension in question exceeds the spacetime continuum in some way, instead of just remaining outside of it, as you obviously can exist apart from some structure without being larger than it. The Tiering System FAQ page elaborates a bit on that, so, you could probably check it out.

    Without more context, this statement is just Cosmic Awareness, from what I gather, given that it doesn't seem to be talking about some superior state of being which Aesir exists in, but just to some ability that allows him to perceive the timeline as a monolith and therefore observe all of history, instead of having his point of view restricted to individual moments in time.
    Hi Ultima, a question regarding the latest SCP CRT
    Does an infinite number of multiverses (infinite number of universes in each multiverse) qualify for higher tiers like L1C if Verse treats it to be really infinitely larger than the Single infinite multiverse as finite objects? Do the same with larger sets qualify for higher tiers? Example: Epislon zero universes will be which Tier? (note they have been treated as Truly Greater than the lower Ordinal numbers as comparison between finite objects insted normal countably infinite sets)
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Why is it just higher level 2A? I mean not that the FAQ stated that any difference in AP at 2A should be Uncountably infinite and whether this does not have to blur the boundary between Above baseline 2A and Low-1C when both are mandatory. uncountably infinite larger than 2A baseline? Why would we treat Space to contain an infinite multiverse and claim the "transcendent" structure it contains as solid L1C like Blazblue instead of these instances? Is there an explanation for this (some examples include DND and SCP)

    Yeah, to clarify: The blurb you've quoted isn't really referring to AP differences within 2-A, but AP differences in general; there is no such thing as "uncountably infinitely above baseline 2-A" in the Tiering System, because that's just what Low 1-C is, at the minimum.

    Assuming there are two layers according to the composite hierarchy, the upper layer not only considers the lower layer (containing the Low-1A cosmology) as fiction but also transcends it to the point of any comparative concept like "stronger" and " weaker "is meaningless and cannot be applied. Will this grant Higher Layer H1A?

    Not on its own, no.

    Is there a Cardinal or Ordinal number corresponding to Tier 0 or higher than the H1A baseline?
    That'd be a Mahlo Cardinal, as it currently stands. But, I suppose you could also see Tier 0 as being just a proper class defined within the framework of a set theory in which the existence of inaccessible cardinals is included as an axiom.
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    Hi can I ask you a question if the Set of real numbers/C is not equal to Aleph 1 but instead is equal to or much greater than Aleph numbers greater than Aleph 1 like Paul Cohen's axiom. So are C number of universes L1C or L1A or even 1A+ ? If it's L1C does this devalue the other Alephs? (aka Aleph 1 universes is still 2A but much higher than baseline)
    "
    "A point of view which the author [Cohen] feels may eventually come to be accepted is that CH is obviously false. The main reason one accepts the axiom of infinity is probably that we feel it absurd to think that the process of adding only one set at a time can exhaust the entire universe. Similarly with the higher axioms of infinity. Now {\displaystyle \aleph _{1}}
    \aleph _{1}
    is the cardinality of the set of countable ordinals, and this is merely a special and the simplest way of generating a higher cardinal. The set {\displaystyle C}
    C
    [the continuum] is, in contrast, generated by a totally new and more powerful principle, namely the power set axiom. It is unreasonable to expect that any description of a larger cardinal which attempts to build up that cardinal from ideas deriving from the replacement axiom can ever reach {\displaystyle C}
    C
    .

    Thus {\displaystyle C}
    C
    is greater than {\displaystyle \aleph _{n},\aleph _{\omega },\aleph _{a}}
    \aleph_n, \aleph_\omega, \aleph_a
    , where {\displaystyle a=\aleph _{\omega }}
    a = \aleph_\omega
    , etc. This point of view regards {\displaystyle C}
    C
    as an incredibly rich set given to us by one bold new axiom, which can never be approached by any piecemeal process of construction. Perhaps later generations will see the problem more clearly and express themselves more eloquently."
    Rabbit2002
    Rabbit2002
    Some additions: I'm asking this isn't just an assumption, it's related to something like SCP
    This quote has been considered L1A, but I think it could be higher due to the use of The Real Space which heavily implies is the set of real numbers and also contain uncountable infinite number of Aleph numbers (Aleph0, Aleph 1, Aleph2,...)
    "Unfortunately, the world is not dynamic. Everything's already over, I've already read it. All of this? It's just going through the motions. This is just a tiny subset of the world at large. I'd call it the 'real' word, but it's just as real as we are in here. The larger space that we're in… much larger, in fact, uncountably infinite expanses in uncountably infinite dimensions… we fill that space. And yet, here, we're discretised. Collapsed into words and nothing more, even if we're something so much greater.

    See, sometimes the infinite can be reduced to something simpler. Look here: ℵ0 and ℵ1 and ℵ2 and so on. Simple, yes, but they can each contain the world. You can glimpse it, if you look hard enough. Just breathe in, breathe out. Think about infinity. Not just countable, but uncountable, and the dimension of it goes up into uncountability too. If you think you've really understood it, you aren't thinking hard enough. Sure, zoom past the pitstops. 5, 23, 3333. They're all beautiful, but so horrendously finite. Fly past it all and keep going and going. Minds have died wishing for a fraction of what I can see. So breathe slowly, and think about it.

    Really think about it, and the world seems like nothing.

    I hope you've been paying attention."
    Hey ultima.
    They are statements of parallel worlds and infinite dimensions in a verse/boundless dimensions was also stated.
    And time again the verse is stated to have an infinity of dimensions.
    The writer of this stated all universe have infinite higher dimensions.
    Another time,its stated as infinity of dimensions...worlds beyond ...worlds beyond worlds.
    Another scan says they are innumerable dimensions in the universe.
    Which the writer says are higher dimensions.

    Another scan says all things are layered on themselves endlessly,and perception twist around it's own axis until it is blinded by .fullness,crippled by infinite repetition.

    the context of the bold ones depends on the context once you see the scans.

    Sorry about my bad English tho.

    But I want you to help me scale this cosmology please.
    Hey Ultima I heard that Higher layers of existence are infinitely higher then the Lower layers of existence based on higher infinites from set theory right? Tho I still don't understand isn't this basically the same thing as Infinite x infinite = infinite (aleph null)? Like how does it increase your Cardinality exactly? Can you give me a full explanation?
    Hello Ultima, a question

    If a universe is declared a Higher dimension (regardless of whether it refers directly to a actually higher dimension of space, I mean a Higher Plane of existence, not a metaphor or a Flowery language for something like advanced. tech or similar) to explain the role it serves as the "interdimensional highway" which allows access to all universes of the lower dimension that threaten all existence, while also containing those universes (countless possibly infinite) in the form of much smaller finite objects like ordinary planets and trivialize it to the extent that it can be destroyed from there like normal planets instead of special pocket universes or similiar , besides it is even inaccessible by people who can access everywhere of space and time, including coutless possibly infinite universes and everywhere of it, then they are even reach further on "dimensions beyond their grasp before" and The place/realm transcendent and separate from space and time
    Would that Universe qualify for Low-1C, and the "dimensions beyond their grasp" I mentioned too?
    Howdy there! Sorry if I’m disturbing you at this hour. I’m sure you are busy currently, but when you have the chance, could you check out this CRT? Your input will prove to be most beneficial to the entire thing, thank you now!
    Hey, I know dc is one of you Verses, so those Dimensions Rama Kushna talked about right? Are those spatial dimensions?
    Hello Ultima! Great work on the Cthulhu Mythos revisions but I have a couple concerns.

    So is the family tree still relevant? The one a Lovecraft drew up charting his and fellow writer Clark Ashton Smith's (a friend of his who jokingly claimed descent from Jupiter) shared descent from Azathoth, through Lovecraft's creation Nyarlathotep and Clark-Smith's Tsathoggua, respectively?

    I also wish to know if the works of other writers count in the Cthulhu mythos cosmology. (August Derleth and Ramsey Campbell are two examples.)

    if so I may have a few information on Azathoth and The mythos Cosmology worth hearing.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    The current profiles are mostly restricted to the things written by Lovecraft's personal circle of friends. Derleth is an exception, since his version of the Mythos paint a completely different picture of it, and severely contradict basically everything Lovecraft wrote, at least when it comes to the higher parts of the setting.
    Hey Ultima. The Dragon Ball thread actually made me think about something so I'd like to ask a question.

    Is it actually possible for an infinite expanse to have an edge or would the presence of an edge contradict it being infinite in the first place?
    Hello i have question

    'But don't you define a god as something that's infinite?
    How can an infinite thing be smaller than infinity?"
    'An infinite set may be contained within an infinite set.
    An infinite set may contain an infinity of infinite subsets."

    Is this Low 1-A?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    What they're referring to is in principle very clear here, but the lack of elaboration by the text makes the statement a lot more ambiguous: It could either be referring to higher-dimensional spaces ranging from Low 2-C to High 1-B, or to sets of different cardinalities altogether, which would be 1-A+ instead. Without more evidence, we assume the former.
    megaraptor
    megaraptor
    It's something like similar higher dimensionality
    Hello. I have a question.

    Let's say there are 2 levels, and each level has a single universe in it.
    To destroy the universe on level 1, you would need Low 2-C AP.
    It's then stated that Low 2-C AP can't destroy normal objects on level 2. This is because everything on level 2 is extremely more durable.

    Now if I'm not mistaken, High 3-A AP and Low 2-C AP can be separated because Low 2-C AP is uncountably infinite, while High 3-A is just infinite.

    It's been established that level 1 4-D AP (Low 2-C AP) can't destroy level 2 3-D objects. It's then safe to say that level 1 4-D AP won't be able to destroy the level 2 4-D universe.
    Since it always requires some kind of uncountably infinite 4-D AP to destroy a 4-D object, and we know that normal uncountably infinite 4-D AP won't be able to destroy 3-D objects, let alone the 4-D universe on level 2, does that mean that level 2 is a higher level of existence, and would possibly qualify for something like Low 1-C?

    This theory might be completely incorrect, but I was thinking since it might require a higher uncountably infinite AP to destroy the level 2 object, level 2 might be a higher level of existence.

    Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
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    imZer0Null
    imZer0Null
    Hello Ultima.
    Since you haven't responded for about two weeks, can I assume you are no longer interested in this topic?
    That is ofc fine, but I kindly ask of you to just let me know you don't plan on discussing this further, so that I don't keep waiting for a response.
    If you are still interested, but don't have time to reply rn, then I apologize if I seem like I'm pushing you to give an answer.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Sorry for the late answers. Been struggling with connection issues for the past few weeks, so, my online activity in general has been reduced pretty significantly.

    You could argue that all deeper world inhabitants have resistance to baseline concept manipulation, but that's way more unlikely than their concepts just being from higher levels of existence.

    Why, exactly? Refer to the above: General concepts being stronger and harder to destroy in a deeper world isn't inherently grounds for assuming an uncountably infinite difference, especially with how vague of a concept "power" becomes, at these scales, far more so than the concept of size, which is why we treat the two as separate things entirely (Lest we start treating any character who is portrayed as vaguely stronger than a baseline Low 2-C as Low 1-C, which simply doesn't work for a myriad of reasons).

    Again, it's really no different from there being a character who has a feat of being unfazed by an attack from a Low 2-C; we'd just rate said character as unquantifiably stronger than the one who did the attack in the first place, but not any higher than that.

    Let's consider Layer 1 as the 'base' layer, and every layer after that to be "stronger".
    Everyone in Layer 2 would be unquantifiable into Low 2-C, seeing as they can easily destroy space-time continuums and would also be unaffected by Low 2-C AP.
    I'm still unsure about this, but if it requires higher uncountably infinite AP to then destroy space-time continuums in layer 2, wouldn't Layer 3 be a higher level of existence, seeing as they would easily be able to destroy this 'higher uncountably infinite' space-time continuum..?
    This scenario makes a mistake in that it automatically assumes that a deeper layer holds uncountably infinite power in comparision to a shallower one without justifying this conclusion in the first place.

    I can exemplify why we wouldn't treat it as such in any case by borrowing from the hypothetical that I outlined above, but I can modify it slightly, too: Imagine there are a two Low 2-C characters, both of which exist as the personifications of spacetime continuums, and now suppose that Character A launches an attack at Character B, who is completely undamaged by it, and states that they could effortlessly destroy Character A if they so desire. Once again, we obviously wouldn't rate Character B any further than an quantifiably higher level of Low 2-C.

    Secondly, while deeper layers don't literally see shallow worlds as shogi pieces, they are still so inferior that a deeper world inhabitant can destroy them as easily as they would a shogi piece, and as you already know, shallow world inhabitants would be unable to significantly affect a deeper world inhabitant in any way, physically and 'metaphysically' (I don't know if that's the correct word, but they won't be able to affect deeper world inhabitants' sources)
    Sure, but the issue is that, from what I've gathered in this case, the shallower layer is being seen as a literal shogi piece to be played around with. It's evidently not like in verses such as Umineko, where a lower world is so utterly transcended by a higher plane that it is metaphysically represented within the latter by a chessboard. So, again, it'd just showcase that deeper worlds are far superior to shallower onee, but not much other than that.
    imZer0Null
    imZer0Null
    Thanks for the reply. Sorry again if it seems like I'm pushing you for answers. I'm completely fine with receiving late answers, but if you lose interest in the topic, just let me know and I will stop bothering you.

    Simply by the nature of concept manipulation as whole, you can't resist it by just vaguely "being more powerful", if I'm not mistaken. You can only resist it if you have actual resistance to it or if you're in a higher level of existence, and thus unaffected by powers from the lower level. You say that we can't assume the difference is uncountably infinite, which I agree with since it makes sense, but what doesn't make sense is that we then have to assume everyone from a deeper world, even extremely weak characters, would have resistance to baseline concept manipulation. That seems nonsensical to me tho, and I personally think it's a bigger assumption than assuming each layer is simply a higher level of existence.
    This also isn't the same as character X being unfazed by Low 2-C character Y, since once again, we're dealing with concept manipulation. Assuming countless universes from a deeper layer with countless individuals present in them all have baseline resistance to concept manipulation, when there was never mention of something like that, instead of assuming these characters are simply from a higher level of existence doesn't really make sense.
    It's fine tho, since I think it ultimately comes down to the evidence being too vague, which is a fair point.

    My argument about the stronger layers was just a theory, and I also doubted if it actually worked like that, thus I asked you so that you could possibly help me out with it. Thanks for clearing up my misconception about that.
    So just to confirm, it takes uncountably infinite AP to destroy an entire timeline, right?
    My assumption was that since uncountably infinite AP from layer 1 couldn't destroy matter from layer 2, it would take higher uncountably infinite AP to destroy the entire timeline from layer 2.
    I was thinking that if object X couldn't be destroyed by uncountably infinite AP, it would obviously be 'stronger', but not uncountably infinite times 'stronger'. It's at least safe to assume that object X is unquantifiable into Low 2-C tho.
    I then thought that if you were to destroy object X across all of time, meaning an uncountably infinite number of times, it would then qualify as 'higher uncountably infinite AP'.
    Basically, since matter from a deeper world is stronger than the entirety of a shallow world (the entire space-time continuum), I assumed that destroying a deeper world (the entire space-time continuum) would be similar to destroying a shallow world an uncountably infinite number of times.
    But, if I'm understanding what you said correctly, this assumption of mine is wrong. Destroying something that is unquantifiable into Low 2-C across all of time, meaning an uncountably infinite number of times, doesn't mean they have 'higher uncountably infinite AP', and simply means they are even more unquantifiable into Low 2-C.
    Is this correct?

    I'm not really knowledgeable about metaphysical stuff, but if I'm understanding correctly, since the shogi pieces are technically literally the shallow worlds, and not metaphysically represented because of transcendence, it doesn't qualify as something for Tier 1? Is it simply because they literally use the shallow worlds as shogi pieces, or is it again because the evidence is too vague? If we later on found more evidence relating to some type of transcendence, would this shogi piece stuff still be useable, or is it completely useless since they literally use the shallow worlds as shogi pieces?
    Hi Ultima,I have a question about tier 1 and since you're expert about it,I think I should ask you for clarification
    Can a tier 2 character interact with tier 1 character if they fight in the same place due to SBA condition?Given that this tier 2 character is non-smurf and tier 1 character is not omnipresent and can't perceive tier 2 character as fiction
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    If they are both physically lower-dimensional and only have Tier 2 and Tier 1 power, respectively, then, yeah.
    Delta333
    Delta333
    thanks for answering me,so if tier 1 character is not physically lower dimensional,that tier 2 character will not interact with it even they're in same place?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Yeah. The Tier 1 character would be just too large to exist within the same space as the Tier 2 character.
    Hi Ultima, I heard you are an expert on dimensions. I was wondering, would a black hole that can devour even space-time itself be considered a 4th dimensional black hole? From what I've understood normal black holes are a regions/curvatures in space-time (could be wrong tho lol) but they can't really devour the universe itself. If a black hole can devour space-time itself would that black hole be considered to be of a higher dimension or 4D since it could just suck up the entire timeline?
    Hey Ultima, I have a question.

    So, the Vast Expanse is a multiverse, with its own overarching time. Now, when a character attempts to manipulate space, he sees countless "dimensional spaces" i.e. spatial dimensions beyond the regular 3, that stretch out across the entire multiverse in terms of length.

    Would this be High 1-B (Since it means infinite in context) or just still 2-B?
    Planck69
    Planck69
    By the way, here's the context;

    "What is space...?” Meng Hao murmured. The sound of his voice echoed out, causing the starry sky to shake. Although his eyes were closed, in his mind, he could see numerous dimensional spaces, spreading out in all directions, stretching out over such a vast area that they seemed limitless.
    “Length ... is space ...
    “Height ... is space ...
    “Breadth ... is also space ...

    “Size, can also be an expression of space...” Among the countless dimensional spaces, he saw that they could be described in terms of length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portion of what space was. Those were all... descriptions of space.
    However, Meng Hao still didn't understand everything clearly. There was something he was missing, something he hadn’t grasped.''

    "Space... is nothing more than countless threads, formed together into a pattern. The patterns formed by those threads... are space!” Meng Hao shook his head, then waved his hand, causing a circle to appear beneath his feet.
    “I am currently within space,” he said, looking down. Then he smiled as his enlightenment deepened. As for the sea of flames that was the Outsider Dao Sovereign, it appeared to be on the verge of consuming Meng Hao, but to the Dao Sovereign’s utter shock, he realized that the flames were stuck to the outside of the thread that formed the circle!

    [...]
    Meng Hao’s expression was calm as he looked at the circle formed by the thread, within which he stood. Then he smiled. '“As for these threads... doesn't the Essence I have gained enlightenment of consist of more than just the threads themselves?
    “Within these threads are length, height, breadth, and size. They are limitless, and that is space....
    They are flat, but actually....” He waved his right hand, causing a thread to stretch out from the circle, and then pass over him. In the blink of an eye, the circle of threads was no longer flat, but had transformed into... a sphere!
    With an additional thread, it is no longer a circle, but a sphere, like a world ...''

    Meng Hao saw countless dimensions of space, all of them different sizes. Some were blurry, others were clear. They transformed into countless threads, threads that Meng Hao was very familiar with; every time he unleashed the Eighth Hex, these threads would appear, bind whoever was the target of the magic, and seal their cultivation base as well as their Nascent Divinity.
    Originally, Meng Hao had assumed that the threads were natural laws of Heaven and Earth. But now that he could see them clearly, he understood that they... were definitely not natural or magical laws!
    They were dimensional spaces!''
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Yeah, it seems like the "threads" are referring to the individual axes comprising a dimensional space, so, if there are infinite of those, it'd be High 1-B.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    Thanks man. You the MVP.
    Hey I have a question: I have a question, if a character is as large as multiple Low 2-C structures, what speed would they get? Like say, they are 2-C via sheer size. Would they get immesurable?
    Emirp sumitpo
    Emirp sumitpo
    Curious but why infinite? Wouldn't covering across multiple Low 2-C structures be immesuarable as it's technically moving across multiple space time continuums?
    Planck69
    Planck69
    Infinite is if the universes are infinite in size.

    Not quite. There's a difference between moving across the time stream because of range and because of speed.
    Emirp sumitpo
    Emirp sumitpo
    Ah, so if you were to be as big as several Low 2-C universes, you would only have that much range but wouldn't be immesuarble in speed? I see
    Hey Ultima, I have a question.

    A timeline is uncountably infinite times larger than a 3-dimensional universe because it's essentially uncountably infinite snapshots of it, if I got this right So, would this apply for a timeline with a 3-dimensional aspect of any size? If not then is there a specific reason?
    Hey, on the Fireman's profile, it should say "High 6-A to at least Low 1-A" instead of "High 6-A to At least Low 1-A" for both tier and attack potency.
    SonicMDC
    SonicMDC
    Well, actually Multi Continent level to at least Low Outerverse level for Attack Potency.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Didn't notice that. Thanks.
    SonicMDC
    SonicMDC
    You're welcome! Anytime!
    Yo, I just saw the vsb tiering system, and it seemed that to reach outerversal you need to have the cardinality of Aleph 2. How does dc and marvel reach there?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Set theory just acts like a skeleton making sure comparisions between verses are possible to begin with. It's just a measuring stick, and a verse doesn't need to mention spaces of any given cardinality to reach 1-A.
    Amakasu
    Amakasu
    So, if the trancendense is big enough they can qualify for that tier right?
    Ultima_Reality
    Hello, I have a small question regarding temporal dimensions.

    Say, Alice can move through time like it is space, punch you in the crotch 3 days from now etc. Basically, she has Immeasurable speed. Now, her timeline is one among many others embedded in a higher overarching Time. Would she still have Immeasurable speed from the perspective of this higher timeline or be unable to move through it like space?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Not necessarily, no, unless she is explicitly capable of doing that. In all likelihood, this overarching time flow would just be the timeline which she abides by, as opposed to the timeline of any individual universe.
    Planck69
    Planck69
    Ah, I see. Thanks.
    Hello, i have a doubt can you answer me if any character that is low 1-C (or above) receives large size type 10 by default?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Not really, no. You can be both Tier 1 and human-sized, or anything-sized, for that matter.
    ZeryTyol
    I see, but what if the character in question is the embodiment of an infinite multiverse, or the void that surrounds that multiverse? Anyway thanks for the answer.
    Heyyy, mind helping out on this ctr? Just a calc and some scaling that needs to be agreed or disagreed on. Thanks in advance!
    A question about HDE.

    In this CRT it was pointed that Mechikabura can absorb time and timelines in his being (and I repeat, absorb, not fuse), is that enough for him being HDE or not?
    StrymULTRA
    StrymULTRA
    Bump
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Depends. If he absorbs them and they become extensions of his physical body in the process, then, yeah, but if they're just dumped in a pocket dimension inside of him (Or something similar), then, no.
    Small question. Alice has 2-A range and Bob can destroy 2 2-A multiverses. Now, both their APs are baseline but what about their ranges? Are they equal or is Bob's range higher?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Bob has better range, yeah. We would still assume these multiverses are spatio-temporally isolated and separated by some higher space, so, crossing or encompassing the distance between them is still a range feat, even if not very useful to scale AP from.
    Hi buddy

    I hope you to be safe.... I was wondering if you can answer a question of mine:

    If is possible to Azathoth as a supreme Archetype God (a being superior to other Tier 0's) to totally destroy other tier 0 characters below him?

    Thanks in advance!
    Hello ultima, i want to ask.

    What tier whould this?

    A world in the Shinken Universe. It is a kind of multiverse that contains countless branching worlds inside. The branches themselves are innumerable, but the length of the branches (the life span of the world) is finite. When the lifespan of a world is exhausted and it dies, the time axis of the world itself disappears and becomes the material for creating a new branch. In addition, one of the branched worlds becomes an infinite multi-layered world that continues forever. In other words, infinite multi-layered world x infinite world x multiple worlds of temporal branches = branching world.
    GreatIskandar14045
    GreatIskandar14045
    Just 2-A since we don't even treat any countably infinity as higher than the baseline infinity, in example an infinite*infinite*infinite*infinite*infinite multiverse is no superior than the baseline 2-A unless the verse treat so, it's just a better range feat.
    megaraptor
    megaraptor
    Okey

    Uncountable Infinity question​


    Can a multiverse that is created through (specifically only by) infinite possibilities get low 1-C/5D Via.

    If 1 universes branches off with infinite universes and then those universes have their own branching Multiverse and then those have their own unique set of Multiverses branching off from those individual universes and this process continues eternally (Those universes already exist and not in a process of creation)

    A universe branching off to infinite universes and then those universes have their own unique set of branched off Infinite universes so on so on so on

    That should be an uncountably Infinite amount of universes, right????
    Emirp sumitpo
    Emirp sumitpo
    I'm not ultima but just to point out here, afaik: Uncountably infinite universes is low 1-C, but uncountable infinite universes is just 2-A. There's a difference
    Yo ♪

    Hello there, Ultima. I'm gonna say it bluntly: what are the effects of having factorial time dimensions based on the space dimensions? When I said factorial I was talking about three space, three time. Mostly because I want to understand better that fact so I could write something I think has sense and not only poetry.

    Could you know the values that could be taken as a reference for calculating said values?

    And also... Take care of anyone you care about. Volim te, Ultima
    When does the Almalexia profile finally get posted?

    Should Abnur Tharn be Low 2-C because he held off pretty well against Mannimarco?
    Hello, wanted to ask that what tier or dimensionality would be a Super-Dimension that exists beyond the reach of Euclidean Geometry?
    InfiniteDay
    InfiniteDay
    Euclidean Geometry (I believe) extends to any finite dimension. So maybe High 1-B, i'm not to good with tiers.
    Small question. A universe is made of 3 spatial + 1 temporal dimension. Now this universe is infinite in all four "directions". If a person created every possible variation of this universe, would it be 2-A or 2-B?
    Sorry to bother you but Ogbunali told me that you are one of the experts for the universal stuff on the site. So I was hoping to see if you could give your input here on this thread as it talks about universal stuff.
    Hey I hate to bother you but I know you are one of the main experts when it comes to the elder scrolls. If you know other staff members that are knowledgeable on the elder scrolls that would be good, so I don’t need to rely on you and Matt when I have big questions.

    The reason I’m commenting here is because more and more people are starting to say some Deadric Artifacts are high 1-B by themselves (I personally disagree). This has started to pour over into versus debates so I’ve made a thread over it: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-e...rtifacts-tier-and-powers.110280/#post-3463014
    Can you come back to this CRT and give your input based on everything that’s happened so far? We only have proper, up-to-date input from 1 staff member so far, and we’re in a deadlock vote. Agreeing with the time stop side has 6 votes, one being a staff, and infinite speed side has 9 votes, none being staff.
    Hi, Ant has requested you gave some input here regarding Dooms Hell being Low 1-C, I recall you are knowledgeable on the matter.
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Is there evidence that Hell is outright superior to space and time as physical phenomena, instead of just lacking them? The only thing hinting at this in its profile is it supposedly encompassing the entire multiverse, but I don't really understand the logic behind the scan used as evidence for that to say if it suffices or not.
    KieranH10
    KieranH10
    We should have the discussion on my wall on the wiki where it has been requested. Dark seems to remember you were the one who presented the evidence.
    Saudações, meu consagrado

    I have one question, Destiny had a CRT recently, and one of the evidences supporting tier 1 was higher dimensional vectors, but it wasn't accepted. It wasn't accepted because the system does not allow or because in this case it was too vague?
    Ultima_Reality
    Ultima_Reality
    Oh wew, I completely missed this.

    In that case, it was because the statement was too vague, yeah.
    XDragnoir
    XDragnoir
    Sem problema (até onde sei, tu é brasileiro tbm, mas n tenho certeza)

    Anyway, thanks, i will keep that in mind, it may help in the future.
    Hello again, I've recently been working on a cosmology page for a verse that reaches up to at least High 1-A and wanted to have it checked over by one of the wiki experts on high tiered stuff like this.

    Would you mind checking out this blog?
    Duedate8898
    Duedate8898
    I was wondering if you still haven't, that you might instead check out this thread I created to upgrade the verse for a bit more context.
    Duedate8898
    Duedate8898
    Hello again, I would ask that you comment on the thread once more, since I responded to your message and posted drafts of what the new profiles would look like with the agreed upon changes.
    Duedate8898
    Duedate8898
    Sorry to keep bothering you, but if I could get one last check for the thread before attempting to add in these changes that would be greatly appreciated. I've once again updated the drafts of the profiles, this time to be firmly High 1-A without any Tier 0 mentioned within them.
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