misconception about DC comic supreme being.

[Swanyee9t76]

I think we should update the Crisis Cosmology section with this new information.

* The Great Darkness is a self-referential void that can only be referenced through an opposite and that opposite is The Source. Total darkness can only be defined as an absence of light and life and The Source is thus the untainted and incomprehensible purity in all existences.

Where does it say that void is the great darkness? Let’s break it down the paragraph shall we?

“The Source, I theorize, is a product of a self-referential void. The great darkness could only reter to itseli hrough the presence of another. For total darkness can only be defined as an absence of light... of life.”

This posits a fundamental relationship between the self-referential void, the Source, and the Great Darkness. At its core, it reflects the idea that the void is the ultimate origin of all existence, while the Great Darkness and the Source are expressions of the void’s infinite potential. Let’s unpack what this means step by step:

1. The Self-Referential Void: The True Origin

The self-referential void is a concept that describes a state of infinite potential—a reality beyond all oppositions, contradictions, and limitations.


• It is non-dual: neither light nor dark, neither life nor death.


• It is self-aware in a way that generates everything but cannot itself be defined as anything.

In this, the void is the primordial reality. Everything—including light (Source) and darkness (Great Darkness)—emerges from it as a reflection of its boundless creative power.

2. The Source as a Product of the Void

The Source, often viewed as the fountainhead of creation in DC cosmology, represents light, life, and order. Your statement, “The Source is a product of a self-referential void,” means that the Source is a manifestation of the void’s generative power.


• The void gave “birth” to the Source as the light of existence—the creative force that establishes life, structure, and meaning.


• The Source is, therefore, not the ultimate origin but a secondary expression of the void. It operates within creation, embodying order and illuminating existence.

3. The Great Darkness as a Reactive Force

The Great Darkness, in contrast, represents absence—the absence of light, life, and order. This aligns with this statement that “total darkness can only be defined as an absence of light… of life.”


• The Great Darkness cannot exist on its own. It is dependent on the Source (light) for its definition. Without light, there is no darkness.


• It is not an independent force like the void but a shadow or reaction that arises when light manifests.

4. Light and Darkness: The Duality Born from the Void

In this, the self-referential void does not directly create light or darkness—it generates a state of duality where both can arise.


• Light (Source) emerges first, as a manifestation of life and order.


• Darkness (Great Darkness) follows, not as a creation of the void but as a necessary opposite to light.

This duality—light versus dark, creation versus destruction—defines much of DC cosmology. However, both are lesser forces compared to the void, which transcends and encompasses both.

5. The Key Insight: The Great Darkness Cannot Exist Alone

This statement, “The Great Darkness could only refer to itself through the presence of another,” highlights a critical limitation of the Great Darkness.


• The void is self-referential—it exists in and of itself, without the need for external validation or definition.


• The Great Darkness, however, is relational. It can only exist in contrast to light. Darkness is meaningless unless light exists to create a standard for its absence.

This dependency makes the Great Darkness subordinate to both the Source and the void:


1. To the Source: Because light defines it.


2. To the void: Because the void generates the system in which light and dark operate.

6. The Philosophical Implication

This theory establishes a hierarchy of reality in DC cosmology:


1. The Void: The ultimate origin and reality. It is beyond duality and opposition, existing as pure potential and self-awareness.


2. The Source: A manifestation of the void, representing light, life, and creation. It is the first dualistic expression of the void’s potential.


3. The Great Darkness: A shadow or reaction to the Source. It represents absence, death, and destruction but depends on the Source for its existence.

In essence, this means that while the Great Darkness is powerful and primal, it is not the ultimate reality. The void’s self-referential nature proves its supremacy—it is the source of all, including the duality of light and dark.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Hate to break it to you but TGD said dark crisis, not every crisis. Thus your point of JLI being false information is completely invalid

Yes every crisis, read dark crisis: deadly green, the great darkness literally said all he did is sitting in the dark and doing nothing but looking at life (light) with fascination. Beside in death metal: multiverse end, perpetua is directly stated to be mother of all crisis. Perpetua is still canon now as her name is mentioned in “all in” dc comic current runs.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Are you having reading comprehension?? The source is a product of self referential void. This line is followed up this line. The great darkness could only refer to itself through an absence of another. This void is clearly The great darkness.

Nope read my explanation on other replies

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Not anymore, that was like three or four years ago. Outdated. As long as source is the light, it will be not equal to the presence who brought the light

Only said God bring the light and currently we are seeing who that God is. It is overvoid. Since scott is still in dc comic and running now.

 

[Weaver261]

Yes every crisis, read dark crisis: deadly green, the great darkness literally said all he did is sitting in the dark and doing nothing but looking at life (light) with fascination. Beside in death metal: multiverse end, perpetua is directly stated to be mother of all crisis. Perpetua is still canon now as her name is mentioned in “all in” dc comic current runs.

That panel is from deadly green. The great darkness didn't say he did nothing but looking at life. What TGD said was he has nothing but fascination to life meaning he doesn't want to destroy life but rather want to understand it. This doesn't mean he did nothing or he has no hands in past crisis.

Perpetua being the mother of all crisis was rectonned by JLI already.

 

[Weaver261]

Only said God bring the light and currently we are seeing who that God is. It is overvoid. Since scott is still in dc comic and running now.

God is literally the presence. Which kind of god say "let there be light" ?? The presence is christian god. Let there be light comes from the genesis iirc. Moreover the overvoid is the result of light grewing in the great darkness. JLI #4 clearly showed that.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I see it comes down to actual reading comprehension which you seemingly lack. Here is the explanation in another thread going over whom the self-referential void is and worhactual evidence from the stories:

Post in thread 'DC Crisis Cosmology: Update — Source & Great Darkness'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-crisis-cosmology-update-source-great-darkness.176468/post-6951075

Post in thread 'DC Crisis Cosmology: Update — Source & Great Darkness'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-crisis-cosmology-update-source-great-darkness.176468/post-6951230

Post in thread 'DC Crisis Cosmology: Update — Source & Great Darkness'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-crisis-cosmology-update-source-great-darkness.176468/post-6951329

I recommend you read them.

This posits a fundamental relationship between the self-referential void, the Source, and the Great Darkness. At its core, it reflects the idea that the void is the ultimate origin of all existence, while the Great Darkness and the Source are expressions of the void’s infinite potential. Let’s unpack what this means step by step:

It doesn't say that at all. Especially considering the Source came from the Darkness which sums up “product of a self-referential void” which was the Darkness prior to the light of creation as a void of nothingness.

1. The Self-Referential Void: The True Origin

The self-referential void is a concept that describes a state of infinite potential—a reality beyond all oppositions, contradictions, and limitations.

It does not mean that. It means it was referenced to being a void that can be described by its nature. You're overcomplicating stuff and randomly making things that were not said.

• It is non-dual: neither light nor dark, neither life nor death.


• It is self-aware in a way that generates everything but cannot itself be defined as anything.

The Darkness was that prior to the Light.

In this, the void is the primordial reality. Everything—including light (Source) and darkness (Great Darkness)—emerges from it as a reflection of its boundless creative power.

It never said anything along these lines. The Source emerged from the Darkness and the Darkness was an eternal nothingness preceding the Light of Creation.

2. The Source as a Product of the Void

The Source, often viewed as the fountainhead of creation in DC cosmology, represents light, life, and order. Your statement, “The Source is a product of a self-referential void,” means that the Source is a manifestation of the void’s generative power.

The Void didn't give it “power” nothing suggest this. It simply say the Source was a “product” of it meaning it came from that Void. Which its highlighted in four different sources that it was the Darkness from which the Source came.

• The void gave “birth” to the Source as the light of existence—the creative force that establishes life, structure, and meaning.

Yeah, the Light/Source came from the Source. It wasn't directly created by it. Since that goes to the Presence.

• The Source is, therefore, not the ultimate origin but a secondary expression of the void. It operates within creation, embodying order and illuminating existence.

Again, this was never said. You're making things up.

3. The Great Darkness as a Reactive Force

The Great Darkness, in contrast, represents absence—the absence of light, life, and order. This aligns with this statement that “total darkness can only be defined as an absence of light… of life.”

Darkness existed prior to the Light. It didn't come in the same time as the Light. How can you forget that darkness far existed in eternities before the Light was made?

• The Great Darkness cannot exist on its own. It is dependent on the Source (light) for its definition. Without light, there is no darkness.

I’ll have you know the darkness was “nothing and everything” and by itself before the Light. So it being named “darkness” is because of the light yet it did exists as an eternal canvas of nothing for a very long time before the Light was born in defiance it it like it mentioned in Deadly Green.

• It is not an independent force like the void but a shadow or reaction that arises when light manifests.

4. Light and Darkness: The Duality Born from the Void

In this, the self-referential void does not directly create light or darkness—it generates a state of duality where both can arise.

It absolutely does not say this. Headcanon.

• Light (Source) emerges first, as a manifestation of life and order.


• Darkness (Great Darkness) follows, not as a creation of the void but as a necessary opposite to light.

The Darkness already existed before the Light. The Light didn't create it, how can you ignore the many statement saying the darkness existed before light? It's an easy concept to understand that darkness predates life and light.

This duality—light versus dark, creation versus destruction—defines much of DC cosmology. However, both are lesser forces compared to the void, which transcends and encompasses both.

5. The Key Insight: The Great Darkness Cannot Exist Alone

This statement, “The Great Darkness could only refer to itself through the presence of another,” highlights a critical limitation of the Great Darkness.

It doesn't because you say it is.

• The void is self-referential—it exists in and of itself, without the need for external validation or definition.


• The Great Darkness, however, is relational. It can only exist in contrast to light. Darkness is meaningless unless light exists to create a standard for its absence.

This dependency makes the Great Darkness subordinate to both the Source and the void:

Making things up again.

1. To the Source: Because light defines it.


2. To the void: Because the void generates the system in which light and dark operate.

6. The Philosophical Implication

This theory establishes a hierarchy of reality in DC cosmology:


1. The Void: The ultimate origin and reality. It is beyond duality and opposition, existing as pure potential and self-awareness.


2. The Source: A manifestation of the void, representing light, life, and creation. It is the first dualistic expression of the void’s potential.


3. The Great Darkness: A shadow or reaction to the Source. It represents absence, death, and destruction but depends on the Source for its existence.

In essence, this means that while the Great Darkness is powerful and primal, it is not the ultimate reality. The void’s self-referential nature proves its supremacy—it is the source of all, including the duality of light and dark.

The Void was never pitted as “supreme” just older than the Source which the Darkness is indeed older than the Source.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

It doesn't support your notion much less matters than the actual printed material. You do understand how “Death of the Auhtor” works, right?

You're not very clear on your point nor are you even sure. That was not a lesser manifestation, it was a visual representation manifesting a convincible shape, which the story never implies or directly states as “lesser.” Its Jim Starlin tacky writing about wanting Darkseid to overtake the supreme deity as the whole purpose of taking the Soulfire formula was to replace the Source itself.

Its not an official interview and there's is no reference of it being a thing other than Michael Julius randomly writing it. That aside even if it were a “legitimate” interview it was very lead on and Steve Orlando hadn't dealt with the original work of Final Crisis. Steve is very vocal and even told me what he says doesn't matter invoking the idea authors and writers do not determine canon but what is written.

God has multiple faces also means different facets or aspects. They aren't the full entity itself especially considering that “God” is a single title and is just seen through many shapes from different depictions through different belief systems. That's rather an easy concept to understand since God would permeate any and all its aspects/faces.

Right and new information clearly states the Overvoid is the Light as would the Source being the very Light as well.

The Presence is God? The Presence literally created the Light as did God. I don't know how this isn't made obvious. You can't play the card ignorance is bliss. Your just downright ignoring the obvious.

If they don't scale to their true form then obviously they aren't as powerful. I make no distinction that the manifestation is the entity itself. Regardless, the Presence is clear on being a manifestation of a truer being. The Source is just the Source with rare mentions of it having a true form, if not at all. The Source is a manifestation of the Creator’s powers and creativity also helps that notion.

The Presence not being “God” is the dumbest mental gymnastic I've ever heard. Now we're going to deny the Presence who is God and has been called God or the Creator way more often than the Source as being “God.” I'm going to assume you're joking here.

Same with the Presence rarely being mentioned by name other than being called God, Creator, or something analogous to those titles. Though, Overvoid stand-ins are immaculate perfection, light, or void(in certain scans).

You're not getting the scan are you? The Darkness originally was everything and nothing since all that was(everything) was nothing. It had no name, no consciousness, or no state of being it was only the Great Darkness in contrast to the Light which it still predates and is described as just a small twinkling light in its endless canvas.

Morrison's GL run mentions the Overvoid once(which they don't even call it by name). The information of the Metal series and Dark Crisis is far more recent.

Yeah, because the despection of the Overvoid during Snyder's run is just a corrosive void outside the Multiverse and not some ontological plane of nothingness preceding creations.

Yeah, and the scan itself isn't showing Dax Novu whose idea was erased during Superman Beyond. Which the Justice League Incarnate scan shows Final Crisis #7 which was Rox and not Dax. Rox was only “Mandrakk” because he was corrupted by Dax being the only one referred to as Mandrakk itself.

I don't know what you mean here other than people conception of the darkness intention being wrong. Regardless, if appeared during Swamp Thing directly and that's rather clear.

Ok, stop with this nonsense you got from Michael Julius and claiming you don't know him. You used a comic vine thread he randomly posted, used his logic on Vandal Savage, and now using his logic that Perpetua was what Darkseid perceived. Ok, you “totally” don't know him. What’s next Perpetua is just Universal and readies in a bubble timeline that Darkseid created?

Yeah, and that Great Darkness isn't the same one we see in Deadly Green. Which Deadly Green was released a month after #6 of Justice League vs Legion of Superheroes. Not to mention all the story following saying the Darkness was indeed aware and seen the events as it chose just to watch meaning it very much is real. The Darkness that lives on or any form is up for anyone to decide as real or not.

That's what Michael Julius never clarifies and gets mad at fans for “wrongly” interpretation what he says. He doesn't say the Darkness exists or that it was just Pariah’s madness. He says at the very core that the Darkness doesn't entirely exists at all.

Can you post valids scans from the story disapproving Light and Dark not being dichotomies?

Kinda dumb if you ask me.

The Greater Omniverse and the Overvoid were interchangeable in Death Metal. So it stands to reason the Source whom Synder describes to Tyler from the Imaginary Axis as the pinnacle of all things would be more or less the Creator of the Greater Omniverse as well. Considering the “Void” has an end as stated several times within the stories. Death of the New Gods other than Grant Morrison is literally just ignored. Given your weird interpretation of things, I'm not surprised you see it like that with no evidence to suggest anything of the sort. I'm pretty sure you're not even confident in saying that.

Does Flash not make it clear that the Source and Light are one? Does multiple stories say the Presence created Light which made the Darkness which is treated as non-existent? What information do you like using yet you filter so much of it to fit your narrative.

I don’t think you’re understanding my point. The concept of the death of the author actually aligns with providing specific answers to claims. The interviews I’ve referenced are meant to support the evidence from the printed material, and VSB also relies on these author confirmations—such as how Presence was influenced by external forces and Morrison’s statements. I don’t see any issue here, as I’ve simply used these to reinforce the evidence from the JLA scans.

I think it’s better to stop with your headcanons. The manifestation in the context refers to how The Source manifested itself as a yin-yang entity to maintain the balance of the multiverse. The manifestation mentioned isn’t the visual form of The Source but rather a lesser manifestation, which is why they said so." It's reshaping its visual manifestation... a form that our limited minds can comprehend " and Source itself stated that " My time on this plane of existence has ended ". Now, you can clearly see that Metron stated that sentence because Source came from higher plane and Source manifested itself as a form which new gods can comprehend.

I don't have any idea about ur claim, I don't know who is Michael Julius and If it's fan-made, I want u to provide the evidence behind ur claim.

So, you got my point about Source being aspect of God and the Presence that spectre finding is Source.

I've already provided about Overvoid being Source or Light is false, I think this might be ur opinion rather than actual debunking.

No? If you claim the Presence is God, then the Overvoid would also qualify as God simply because it lacks specific providences or evidence. Instead of asserting the Presence as God, it would be more consistent to consider the Overvoid as God, as Morrison explicitly stated and JLI#4 never wrote a single word about Overvoid being light and the flaw just appeared on the surface of Source, then Overvoid noticed.

Just because Presence is Source. A two names that reside into one focues point and Creator isn't Presence. Since it only stated Overvoid is supreme being of Greater Omniverse and Greater Omniverse is The Source itself, So, Presence is basically Source. Hope this help.
I never said Source is creator or god but a manifestation or lesser aspect, Presence never stated as Creator or something, but supreme being of Greater Omniverse like Source, If there's any evidences that support Presence as supreme being, I'd recommend u to provide instead of denying my points with ur opinions.

Where is the context of Presence being mentioned as GOD or the Creator, transcending everything? Immaculate perfection is a part of the Overvoid, which refers to the surface of the Source ( it re-confirmed in JLI#4 ). A space of complete darkness represents perfection, just as a space of nearly complete light also signifies perfection. The Overvoid only regarded the multiverse as a flaw.

I'm just making things sense and why would I provide a scan that ur knowing, I also provided before. I think ur forgetting about the existence of God. If u claim " There's no things before light " it would contradicted to " Let there be light ", the definition of total darkness is absense of light, thus why writer added that sentence + Overvoid is also canves.

Because Overvoid is referring to Void,God or anything else you'd like to called ( which Morrison already stated twice ). I don't see anything's hard to understand here and Dark Crisis is like self-contradiction which is Darkseid's understanding in origin and TGD's confirmation + timelime conflict, and Death Metal's one supported my evidence.

The information about the Overvoid was already provided during Morrison's era, so why would it need to be established twice? Instead or providing twice, he provided that Overvoid is the void that encompassess all things.

Then, it's incorrect lol. It direct stated " Though Mandrakk, the first monitor and the first that corrupted by darkness ". The first monitor is Dax novu, he's also first dark monitor and not even Rox Ogama.

It's great evil beast, What's hard to grasp here? Great evil beast isn't Great Darkness itself but an aspect.

I don't really know who's Michael Julius, If I guess correctly, u are trying to accuse with a person that had probelm with u and tf is the claim? Perpetua resides in bubble of darkseid's timeline? It may rude but u should check ur mental state.

Certain related future events are often announced before the main event and it directly stated as Great Darkness, I think it's clear.

Okay but that's not my problem, + don't even know who's Michael Julius is. Hope this help.

I understand ur point rn, ur claiming Overvoid as Light, I've already provided an information about Overvoid isn't Source ( whch is Light ) and Light and Darkness are dual, thus why they said " Everything was no longer nothing " and " Everything almost become nothing once again " just because Everything is Light and Nothing is Darkness.

Okay but where? Greater Omniverse is an collection of infinte multiverses and it never stated directly but Morrison's clarified it as " they existed someone in the Void ". Instead of relying on uncertain canons, we should prob head onto certain canon, end of the void has different interpretations, prob refering to the center of greater omniverse where Source resides and which used to be " Universe was void and without forms "

Okay, I agree Light = Source but never said they aren't same and where's the context of Presence is getting referred as Creator or God?

 

[Swanyee9t76]

God is literally the presence. Which kind of god say "let there be light" ?? The presence is christian god. Let there be light comes from the genesis iirc. Moreover the overvoid is the result of light grewing in the great darkness. JLI #4 clearly showed that.

Okay I've been asking both you and goofytoddler to provide a scan of Presence getting mentioned as Creator or God but none of u provided.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don’t think you’re understanding my point. The concept of the death of the author actually aligns with providing specific answers to claims. The interviews I’ve referenced are meant to support the evidence from the printed material, and VSB also relies on these author confirmations—such as how Presence was influenced by external forces and Morrison’s statements. I don’t see any issue here, as I’ve simply used these to reinforce the evidence from the JLA scans.

Morrison never truly made a statement about the Presence. The Presence being shaped by forces external is part of the Vertigo Universe which is separated from the main DC story in this Wiki.

The story in which Morrison wrote about the “Presence” revolves around the idea he made the Universe as “making the Heavens and the Earth.”

I think it’s better to stop with your headcanons. The manifestation in the context refers to how The Source manifested itself as a yin-yang entity to maintain the balance of the multiverse. The manifestation mentioned isn’t the visual form of The Source but rather a lesser manifestation, which is why they said so." It's reshaping its visual manifestation... a form that our limited minds can comprehend " and Source itself stated that " My time on this plane of existence has ended ". Now, you can clearly see that Metron stated that sentence because Source came from higher plane and Source manifested itself as a form which new gods can comprehend.

It literally says “It's reshaping its visual manifestation” its just reshaping how it looked in the lower plane to help the New Gods comprehend its form at that level, not at all saying there's a higher Source as that's just the Source itself.

The Yin-Yang was talking about the nature of the Source, not the Source manifesting itself as Yin-Yang. Its clear from how the Source was talking to them that it was indeed itself and the “plane of existence” statement was just it going back. I don't think that's hard to misunderstand.

I don't have any idea about ur claim, I don't know who is Michael Julius and If it's fan-made, I want u to provide the evidence behind ur claim.

It is fan-made. You need to show proof that's it a reliable source it's on you to provide that's it's even real before I need to disprove it.

So, you got my point about Source being aspect of God and the Presence that spectre finding is Source.

I've already provided about Overvoid being Source or Light is false, I think this might be ur opinion rather than actual debunking.

Its already accepted in the Wiki with a plethora of examples and evidences. You haven't made an argument that's well reasoned nor contextually makes sense to disprove it.

No? If you claim the Presence is God, then the Overvoid would also qualify as God simply because it lacks specific providences or evidence. Instead of asserting the Presence as God, it would be more consistent to consider the Overvoid as God, as Morrison explicitly stated and JLI#4 never wrote a single word about Overvoid being light and the flaw just appeared on the surface of Source, then Overvoid noticed.

“Immaculate Perfection” is what the Overvoid is. Not to mention its literally taken from Multiversity: Guidebook story and requires the entire event. In the story, the Overvoid was never even called God.

Just because Presence is Source. A two names that reside into one focues point and Creator isn't Presence. Since it only stated Overvoid is supreme being of Greater Omniverse and Greater Omniverse is The Source itself, So, Presence is basically Source. Hope this help.
I never said Source is creator or god but a manifestation or lesser aspect, Presence never stated as Creator or something, but supreme being of Greater Omniverse like Source, If there's any evidences that support Presence as supreme being, I'd recommend u to provide instead of denying my points with ur opinions.

The Creator is a term that's signifies a dirty creating something. So the Presence creating the DC Universe gives credence that he is indeed the “Creator.” That's literally simple logic.

Where is the context of Presence being mentioned as GOD or the Creator, transcending everything? Immaculate perfection is a part of the Overvoid, which refers to the surface of the Source ( it re-confirmed in JLI#4 ). A space of complete darkness represents perfection, just as a space of nearly complete light also signifies perfection. The Overvoid only regarded the multiverse as a flaw.

Immaculate perfection wasn't describing something that came from the Overvoid, it is the Overvoid. It literally tells us in Multiversity: Guidebook;

An imperceptible flaw is discovered in a hitherto to immaculate perfection.

I don't know if you know how to read, but that clearly tells us the Overvoid is the immaculate perfection which found the Flaw growing within it. Justice League Incarnate just repeats the same notion.

I'm just making things sense and why would I provide a scan that ur knowing, I also provided before. I think ur forgetting about the existence of God. If u claim " There's no things before light " it would contradicted to " Let there be light ", the definition of total darkness is absense of light, thus why writer added that sentence + Overvoid is also canves.

There's certainly nothing before Light and the story called it the Darkness.

If the total darkness is the absence of Light then clearly it also existed before it as mentioned in several stories. There's nothing to confuse this logic since darkness predates light is a concept not just found in DC, but pretty much any/all philosophy.

Because Overvoid is referring to Void,God or anything else you'd like to called ( which Morrison already stated twice ). I don't see anything's hard to understand here and Dark Crisis is like self-contradiction which is Darkseid's understanding in origin and TGD's confirmation + timelime conflict, and Death Metal's one supported my evidence.

Again, Dark Crisis is an event like any other that happened which is more recent than Final Crisis. Morrison hadn't writing about the Overvoid or for DC for a while. He doesn't determine anything, this shouldn't be hard to grasp.

The information about the Overvoid was already provided during Morrison's era, so why would it need to be established twice? Instead or providing twice, he provided that Overvoid is the void that encompassess all things.

Dark Crisis isn't Morrison’s era which was long gone. Are you suggesting we stick to the past? If so, then you don't know how canoncity works which current information supersedes previous ones.

Then, it's incorrect lol. It direct stated " Though Mandrakk, the first monitor and the first that corrupted by darkness ". The first monitor is Dax novu, he's also first dark monitor and not even Rox Ogama.

The scan shows Rox and was referring to the final moments of darkness in #7 of Final Crisis. Mandrakk(Dax Novu) was already gone in Superman Beyond #2.

It's great evil beast, What's hard to grasp here? Great evil beast isn't Great Darkness itself but an aspect.

Great Evil Beast isn't a term ever coined in the story. That's a fan-made name. The Darkness we see in Swamp Thing is the Darkness itself.

I don't really know who's Michael Julius, If I guess correctly, u are trying to accuse with a person that had probelm with u and tf is the claim? Perpetua resides in bubble of darkseid's timeline? It may rude but u should check ur mental state.

You've brought this point because you mentioned of a similar claim where he stated that Perpetua was just Darkseid imagination. I didn't say it was true, I just said I believed you followed that same logic, if you didn't then that's on me.

Certain related future events are often announced before the main event and it directly stated as Great Darkness, I think it's clear.

Okay but that's not my problem, + don't even know who's Michael Julius is. Hope this help.

The story doesn't take place in the same timeline as when Constatine met with the actual Darkness. Stop randoming claims.

I understand ur point rn, ur claiming Overvoid as Light, I've already provided an information about Overvoid isn't Source ( whch is Light ) and Light and Darkness are dual, thus why they said " Everything was no longer nothing " and " Everything almost become nothing once again " just because Everything is Light and Nothing is Darkness.

Whats your point here? Everything being nothing just means everything “is” nothing. They were the same concept, not dual. Light represents everything after “everytbingness” differentiates from nothingness is dual but that's after the Light was born in defiance of the Darkness.

Okay but where? Greater Omniverse is an collection of infinte multiverses and it never stated directly but Morrison's clarified it as " they existed someone in the Void ". Instead of relying on uncertain canons, we should prob head onto certain canon, end of the void has different interpretations, prob refering to the center of greater omniverse where Source resides and which used to be " Universe was void and without forms "

You rely on statements made in the mid-late 2000’s. It's 2025 catch up on current information.

Okay, I agree Light = Source but never said they aren't same and where's the context of Presence is getting referred as Creator or God?

Its in the blog please read it.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

I see it comes down to actual reading comprehension which you seemingly lack. Here is the explanation in another thread going over whom the self-referential void is and worhactual evidence from the stories:

Post in thread 'DC Crisis Cosmology: Update — Source & Great Darkness'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-crisis-cosmology-update-source-great-darkness.176468/post-6951075

Post in thread 'DC Crisis Cosmology: Update — Source & Great Darkness'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-crisis-cosmology-update-source-great-darkness.176468/post-6951230

Post in thread 'DC Crisis Cosmology: Update — Source & Great Darkness'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dc-crisis-cosmology-update-source-great-darkness.176468/post-6951329

I recommend you read them.

It doesn't say that at all. Especially considering the Source came from the Darkness which sums up “product of a self-referential void” which was the Darkness prior to the light of creation as a void of nothingness.

It does not mean that. It means it was referenced to being a void that can be described by its nature. You're overcomplicating stuff and randomly making things that were not said.

The Darkness was that prior to the Light.

It never said anything along these lines. The Source emerged from the Darkness and the Darkness was an eternal nothingness preceding the Light of Creation.

The Void didn't give it “power” nothing suggest this. It simply say the Source was a “product” of it meaning it came from that Void. Which its highlighted in four different sources that it was the Darkness from which the Source came.

Yeah, the Light/Source came from the Source. It wasn't directly created by it. Since that goes to the Presence.

Again, this was never said. You're making things up.

Darkness existed prior to the Light. It didn't come in the same time as the Light. How can you forget that darkness far existed in eternities before the Light was made?

I’ll have you know the darkness was “nothing and everything” and by itself before the Light. So it being named “darkness” is because of the light yet it did exists as an eternal canvas of nothing for a very long time before the Light was born in defiance it it like it mentioned in Deadly Green.

It absolutely does not say this. Headcanon.

The Darkness already existed before the Light. The Light didn't create it, how can you ignore the many statement saying the darkness existed before light? It's an easy concept to understand that darkness predates life and light.

It doesn't because you say it is.

Making things up again.

The Void was never pitted as “supreme” just older than the Source which the Darkness is indeed older than the Source.

Done.

Great Darkness was used to describe as nothing which is opposite of everything and not even nothingness. Ram V also made it clear that TGD can be only defined as total absense of Light.

Okay but TGD isn't self-referntial void but an absense of light which already stated later.

They are balanced.

U don't seems to understand, Void is God and God is the one that said " Let there be light " they prob upgraded the existence of God/Void being just a blank page.

TwT, Light/Source came from Overvoid and Presence aka supreme being of greater omniverse is Source aka supreme being of greater omniverse.

Light and Darkness isn't dual? bro seriously? Do I even need to provide an idea of duality?

Okay and? It doesn't match my point.

lol, keep in mind, I was trying to make things sense.

Like I said before.

Morrison described Void as oneness state that transcend everything ( all contradictions,all possible thoughts + everything ).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Done.

Great Darkness was used to describe as nothing which is opposite of everything and not even nothingness. Ram V also made it clear that TGD can be only defined as total absense of Light.

Absence of light literally implies that nothing was itself absent of any concept including Light. We know this because several scans had said the Light came from the Dark to which was when the war between opposite happened.

That's why Ram V clarifies that like the Source it manifest in opposition to things like uncreation, absence of idea, but down to its purest is complete absence of existence entirely.

Okay but TGD isn't self-referntial void but an absense of light which already stated later.

Self-referential Void was talking about where the Source came from. The Source or the Light came from the Dark.

They are balanced.

U don't seems to understand, Void is God and God is the one that said " Let there be light " they prob upgraded the existence of God/Void being just a blank page.

The Void is the Darkness and the Darkness is the antithesis of God light’s when he created it. That's not the same thing.

TwT, Light/Source came from Overvoid and Presence aka supreme being of greater omniverse is Source aka supreme being of greater omniverse.

Light is the Source which is the Overvoid and they all came from the Darkness when the Presence created all things from the Dark.

Light and Darkness isn't dual? bro seriously? Do I even need to provide an idea of duality?

Light and Dark are duality, yeah. Darkness as just nothingness prior to the Light wasn't dual because no such things existed because it was entirely absent of light. How would it be dual, if there wasn't anything but it?

Okay and? It doesn't match my point.

lol, keep in mind, I was trying to make things sense.

Like I said before.

Morrison described Void as oneness state that transcend everything ( all contradictions,all possible thoughts + everything ).

Well, Morrison hasn't written any significant things about the Overvoid since Multiversity, and a brief cameo in Green Lantern. More information supersedes his.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Morrison never truly made a statement about the Presence. The Presence being shaped by forces external is part of the Vertigo Universe which is separated from the main DC story in this Wiki.

The story in which Morrison wrote about the “Presence” revolves around the idea he made the Universe as “making the Heavens and the Earth.”

It literally says “It's reshaping its visual manifestation” its just reshaping how it looked in the lower plane to help the New Gods comprehend its form at that level, not at all saying there's a higher Source as that's just the Source itself.

The Yin-Yang was talking about the nature of the Source, not the Source manifesting itself as Yin-Yang. Its clear from how the Source was talking to them that it was indeed itself and the “plane of existence” statement was just it going back. I don't think that's hard to misunderstand.

It is fan-made. You need to show proof that's it a reliable source it's on you to provide that's it's even real before I need to disprove it.


Its already accepted in the Wiki with a plethora of examples and evidences. You haven't made an argument that's well reasoned nor contextually makes sense to disprove it.

“Immaculate Perfection” is what the Overvoid is. Not to mention its literally taken from Multiversity: Guidebook story and requires the entire event. In the story, the Overvoid was never even called God.

The Creator is a term that's signifies a dirty creating something. So the Presence creating the DC Universe gives credence that he is indeed the “Creator.” That's literally simple logic.

Immaculate perfection wasn't describing something that came from the Overvoid, it is the Overvoid. It literally tells us in Multiversity: Guidebook;

I don't know if you know how to read, but that clearly tells us the Overvoid is the immaculate perfection which found the Flaw growing within it. Justice League Incarnate just repeats the same notion.

There's certainly nothing before Light and the story called it the Darkness.

If the total darkness is the absence of Light then clearly it also existed before it as mentioned in several stories. There's nothing to confuse this logic since darkness predates light is a concept not just found in DC, but pretty much any/all philosophy.

Again, Dark Crisis is an event like any other that happened which is more recent than Final Crisis. Morrison hadn't writing about the Overvoid or for DC for a while. He doesn't determine anything, this shouldn't be hard to grasp.

Dark Crisis isn't Morrison’s era which was long gone. Are you suggesting we stick to the past? If so, then you don't know how canoncity works which current information supersedes previous ones.

The scan shows Rox and was referring to the final moments of darkness in #7 of Final Crisis. Mandrakk(Dax Novu) was already gone in Superman Beyond #2.

Great Evil Beast isn't a term ever coined in the story. That's a fan-made name. The Darkness we see in Swamp Thing is the Darkness itself.

You've brought this point because you mentioned of a similar claim where he stated that Perpetua was just Darkseid imagination. I didn't say it was true, I just said I believed you followed that same logic, if you didn't then that's on me.

The story doesn't take place in the same timeline as when Constatine met with the actual Darkness. Stop randoming claims.

Whats your point here? Everything being nothing just means everything “is” nothing. They were the same concept, not dual. Light represents everything after “everytbingness” differentiates from nothingness is dual but that's after the Light was born in defiance of the Darkness.

You rely on statements made in the mid-late 2000’s. It's 2025 catch up on current information.

Its in the blog please read it.

So, u ignored my points that I've established.

Grant Morrison, who wrote Final Crisis and The Multiversity, interprets the Presence as a manifestation of something within the Sphere of the Gods.

Because it was manifested by Source.

Metron already saw an orginal orb of Yin/Yang entity. H edoesn't need to shaped a form to see them as they are able to saw their original manifestation.

I meant, u are the one who said it's fake yea? I'd like u to show cuz Morrison already stated similar idea in comic.

Not my problem actually + It's like ur head-canon which u didn't even debunk.

Okay but where did it say about Overvoid being immculate perfection? It later directly stated that was Light and Morrison never stated Overvoid as God because Void and God are one and Overvoid is both at same time.

Okay but he only created a things inside Omniverse, Creator isn't Presence ( bear in mind ).

It was Light TwT....! You can claim it as " It appeared on Overvoid " because Light is part of Overvoid.

Okay but it sees head-canon since it never stated and if it's so, Feel free to provide evidence because it already stated that It's light in JLI#4

JLI#4 only confirmed that, that perfection is Light because Multiversity didn't mention specific + both comic didn't mentioned a single word of Overvoid in those sentences.

So, God doesn't exist?

It re-bring ideas of Morrison's era not only that but everything.

Okay but Darkness is TGD so, u agree that TGD is just absense of Light?

Dark Crisis has multiple conflections with previous stories + F.C is the main event that Overvoid was appeared.

True it's Rox but what aboutv first monitor + Mandrakk is still existed after Final Crisis.

Well then, the hand of TGD which fought with hand of light.

Well, I've never say any of these yet. Seems like ur mental state bad even though it's rude but we are out of topic, u've been keep mentioning these cases like Michael Julius or Perpetua's bubbles or idk. Can't we just focus main point?

Great Darkness is still Darkness lol and it directly stated but ur denying???

Light represents everything, while Darkness symbolizes nothing. Darkness once embodied both nothingness and everything, but no longer, as Light now plays a separate role. However, consider this: if Light is everything and Darkness is nothing, the Overvoid encompasses both—everything and nothing—from the very beginning. That’s my point. The Great Darkness (TGD) was once stated to be omni-awareness void( Cuz there's no one but Overvoid and Darkness ), but it no longer holds that status because Light has assumed a distinct role, while the Overvoid remains both everything and nothing simultaneously.

They are directly connected and Presence never stated to be God or Creator.

I don't see anything like that lmao. It only says God aka Presence lol.

 

[Elizio33]

JLI issue 4 literally became false information issues by the time at the end of Dark Crisis On Infinite Earth (deadly green too) because The Great Darkness stated that he didn’t do anything any of crisis. Also in current New Gods 2024 run, issue 1, stated that Source and Light is the same thing and product of overvoid. The Source and The Presence is directly stated to be the same thing too. So overvoid being light is completely false. Which means Overvoid created the source, the light, the Presence.

JLI 4 did not give entirely false information, no. What was false was that the Great Darkness was behind every Crisis. The intention of the Great Darkness was just misunderstood. The Deadly Green does not undo what was said about The Light and The Overvoid in JLI 4.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think you should take @Weaver261 words about moving on due to you not wanting to use current information.

Because it was manifested by Source.

I like how the scan does not imply that at all. It’s saying the Presence first made manifest on which its saying the Presence manifested through himself many faces. The scan does not mention the Source, Sphere of Gods, or the Overvoid.

Metron already saw an orginal orb of Yin/Yang entity. H edoesn't need to shaped a form to see them as they are able to saw their original manifestation.

Yeah, that was indeed the Source as oneness as opposed to duality. So the manifestation part was changing shape, not emanating down from a different, bigger, Source as you're claiming.

I meant, u are the one who said it's fake yea? I'd like u to show cuz Morrison already stated similar idea in comic.

No, it was very lead-on by Michael Julius. It's been since debunked as not being real.

Not my problem actually + It's like ur head-canon which u didn't even debunk.

Okay but where did it say about Overvoid being immculate perfection? It later directly stated that was Light and Morrison never stated Overvoid as God because Void and God are one and Overvoid is both at same time.

Void and Overvoid are the same thing. I don't know why you're placing this notion the Overvoid is some sort of super void. There was only one Void, that was the Overvoid(now called Light, not Void) and with new information, it isn't God/Creator.

Okay but he only created a things inside Omniverse, Creator isn't Presence ( bear in mind ).

I'm going to ignore this point and assume you're joking here.

It was Light TwT....! You can claim it as " It appeared on Overvoid " because Light is part of Overvoid.

Okay but it sees head-canon since it never stated and if it's so, Feel free to provide evidence because it already stated that It's light in JLI#4

JLI#4 only confirmed that, that perfection is Light because Multiversity didn't mention specific + both comic didn't mentioned a single word of Overvoid in those sentences.

It doesn't need to when it's literally reference Morrsion Multiversity: Guidebook story. Which the specific scan was just about the Overvoid and Flaw. If you're not keen on saying its the Overvoid because it doesn't mention it by name then why do you have a problem when a story says God or the Creator instead of the Presence? You're being very picky here.

So, God doesn't exist?

What does this even mean?

It re-bring ideas of Morrison's era not only that but everything.

Okay but Darkness is TGD so, u agree that TGD is just absense of Light?

That also precedes and predates Light.

Dark Crisis has multiple conflections with previous stories + F.C is the main event that Overvoid was appeared.

Final Crisis wasn't even about the Overvoid specifically. Dark Crisis mentions of the Light a lot more than Final Crisis does to the Overvoid.

True it's Rox but what aboutv first monitor + Mandrakk is still existed after Final Crisis.

The scan is from Final Crisis which is borrowed to fit the narrative of Dark Crisis. It doesn't matter about the description that was Rox.

Well then, the hand of TGD which fought with hand of light.

Well, I've never say any of these yet. Seems like ur mental state bad even though it's rude but we are out of topic, u've been keep mentioning these cases like Michael Julius or Perpetua's bubbles or idk. Can't we just focus main point?

I have not been rude. You're attacking my mental state as if I had problems, that's rude. Yeah, we can move on from this point but play ignorant all you want. You know him.

Great Darkness is still Darkness lol and it directly stated but ur denying???

Yeah, and Darkness predates Light. That Darkness was an anomoly created by a lantern ring. I don’t know why you think they're the same thing.

Light represents everything, while Darkness symbolizes nothing. Darkness once embodied both nothingness and everything, but no longer, as Light now plays a separate role. However, consider this: if Light is everything and Darkness is nothing, the Overvoid encompasses both—everything and nothing—from the very beginning. That’s my point. The Great Darkness (TGD) was once stated to be omni-awareness void( Cuz there's no one but Overvoid and Darkness ), but it no longer holds that status because Light has assumed a distinct role, while the Overvoid remains both everything and nothing simultaneously.

I don't consider the Overvoid as encompassing both. That's strictly you since I already said the Overvoid is the Light. The stories don't even support you since it was also said the Flaw was the “everything” to the Overvoid “nothing.” It indeed didn't remain everything and nothing.

They are directly connected and Presence never stated to be God or Creator.

Yeah, because God and Creator are synonymous terms with the Presence. The Presence is an entity, God or the Creator are just titles.

I don't see anything like that lmao. It only says God aka Presence lol.

This is meant to be productive?

 

[AndrewBennet]

Green Lantern have never stated the darkness was preceded by the Void as much as these stories saying the darkness is the Void. You're completely making a fan theory here.

Overvoid is retconned as the light and its compared to flickering candle when in its compared to the great darkness . The only true Void is DC is the Divine presence which is referred to as the void beyond all the voids .

 

[Xearsay]

You're not getting the point. Most of the writers tend to either be religious or somewhat weary on using the Presence as a stand-in for the Judeo-Christian God hence why they don't randomly make the character seem weaker than it needs to be. They're not just randomly going in their way to bash out the character which may stir some sort of controversy especially if they pivot the character largely as the supreme deity not unlike most Western conceptions of God. This is very obvious when you read the story.

Ignoring your baseless theory that writers would have to favor the Presence because of their assumed religious beliefs, the Presence is a fictional character, that has been disrespected by other characters, threatened, painted in a non-positive way multiple times, and even got killed and turned evil at one point. DC fans generally couldn’t care less about the Presence being “bashed”(whatever that means), and you are definitely a minority in thinking an abrahamic based character deserves favoritism.

Swamp Thing has never even used the implication that God doesn't use aspect. Especially when you consider they didn't even coined the term “The Presence” until very much later with Lucifer's story. So this is just a theory of yours as prior stories still agree the light is “of” God and created by God. Not a very difficult concept to understand especially if God or the Presence transcends Heaven and created Creation rather than just an extension of its will and can easily destroy it with no more than just a word.

Are you implying that the entity seen in that story wasn’t the Presence? If so that’s blatantly false, as he was literally called the Spectre’s master in that same issue. Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, the story still presents the Presence as being equal to a mere fraction of the Upside Down Man, as evident from said fraction being considered the Presences “shadow partner locked in endless fight”, and the multiple instances that would come after showcasing them evenly matched while arm wrestling.

You love using the Upside Downman example when Justice League Dark depiction or more so just James Tynion isn't even up to date. Especially when you consider that the darkness that surrounds the Sphere is literally located as less than the totality of the Light represented by all of Creation.

Ram V rectify this and called the Upsdie Downman as just a reflection of Hecate fear which produce him as a result of Hecate disgust rather than a fully fledged opposite of existing with her since she became magic first resident in the Sphere.

I don't why you keep using this horrible example but Upside Dowman is nowhere more powerful than the Great Darkness or else like Darkseid wouldn't caught the power beyond the Multiverse whom is “eternal and infinite” as a canvas of nothingness where the Light twinkle as a small flickering star in its endless canvas which Upside Downman is nowhere near matched in that description. It's no surprise you keep using this example when considering Tynion worked with Snyder and it's very clear Snyder treated the Source as this supreme entity with the Presece as another way of saying the Source. That also takes into the fact that Tynion is the one that writes the major cosmological aspect while Snyder focuses on the story telling aspect.

The great darkness didn’t surround the sphere of gods, and the Light and Darkness extend to the same extent as each other so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Also btw, Tynion himself has said that the Presence is powered by belief and exist within the Silver City, sitting on premium mobile. So it seems that he’s not on board with your ultimate reality interpretation.

No, it’s not. We literally see that she, herself, is the first resident of the Sphere of Gods. The Presence was a term coined in the same manner as the Source that birthed the connective energy that created the Multiverse which includes Hecate. The Presence long existed before the Silver City and wasn't randomly created as a myth within the Sphere to which his energy literally supplemented and created the Sphere. Hecate literally just exists as the first resident when magic and all it's raw potential are produced her, its quite clear the Presende far predates and supersedes her.

There is not a single statement saying the Presence predates creation myths.

Also you can’t just dismiss entire stories because they don’t align with your interpretation’s Goofy. Hecate’s origin starts before the Godsphere within the Collective Unconscious which they would call a raw state of magic. From this Hecate would shape and give herself form in response to humanities first dream of the impossible. So she wasn’t the first resident of the Godsphere, she was the Collective Unconscious itself and the reality from which all the Godsphere realms were derived. There’s absolutely nothing in this origin suggesting that he created the Sphere of Gods or Hecate, and I don’t even know how you could claim such a thing considering how he’s depicted in JLD. This story literally has a scene where the Presence is directly acknowledged as locking up Heaven because of the Upside Down Man, meaning he was in the Godsphere during this time and is afraid of Hecate’s opposite. Additionally, while accessing the Upside Down Man’s power, Nabu and the Lords of Order were on the verge of storming heavens gates and burning his realm down, a claim which would be backed by credible magical characters like Swamp Thing. If the Presence was this simplex, ultimate reality type of God like you’re making him out to be none of this would be happening.

 

[Robo432343]

@Deagonx

 

[AndrewBennet]

Absence of light literally implies that nothing was itself absent of any concept including Light. We know this because several scans had said the Light came from the Dark to which was when the war between opposite happened.

That's why Ram V clarifies that like the Source it manifest in opposition to things like uncreation, absence of idea, but down to its purest is complete absence of existence entirely.

Self-referential Void was talking about where the Source came from. The Source or the Light came from the Dark.

The Void is the Darkness and the Darkness is the antithesis of God light’s when he created it. That's not the same thing.

Light is the Source which is the Overvoid and they all came from the Darkness when the Presence created all things from the Dark.

Light and Dark are duality, yeah. Darkness as just nothingness prior to the Light wasn't dual because no such things existed because it was entirely absent of light. How would it be dual, if there wasn't anything but it?

Well, Morrison hasn't written any significant things about the Overvoid since Multiversity, and a brief cameo in Green Lantern. More information supersedes his.

Should Great darkness get a seperate key since it's non dual before the concept of light.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

I think you should take @Weaver261 words about moving on due to you not wanting to use current information.

I like how the scan does not imply that at all. It’s saying the Presence first made manifest on which its saying the Presence manifested through himself many faces. The scan does not mention the Source, Sphere of Gods, or the Overvoid.

Yeah, that was indeed the Source as oneness as opposed to duality. So the manifestation part was changing shape, not emanating down from a different, bigger, Source as you're claiming.

No, it was very lead-on by Michael Julius. It's been since debunked as not being real.

Void and Overvoid are the same thing. I don't know why you're placing this notion the Overvoid is some sort of super void. There was only one Void, that was the Overvoid(now called Light, not Void) and with new information, it isn't God/Creator.

I'm going to ignore this point and assume you're joking here.

It doesn't need to when it's literally reference Morrsion Multiversity: Guidebook story. Which the specific scan was just about the Overvoid and Flaw. If you're not keen on saying its the Overvoid because it doesn't mention it by name then why do you have a problem when a story says God or the Creator instead of the Presence? You're being very picky here.

What does this even mean?

That also precedes and predates Light.

Final Crisis wasn't even about the Overvoid specifically. Dark Crisis mentions of the Light a lot more than Final Crisis does to the Overvoid.

The scan is from Final Crisis which is borrowed to fit the narrative of Dark Crisis. It doesn't matter about the description that was Rox.

I have not been rude. You're attacking my mental state as if I had problems, that's rude. Yeah, we can move on from this point but play ignorant all you want. You know him.

Yeah, and Darkness predates Light. That Darkness was an anomoly created by a lantern ring. I don’t know why you think they're the same thing.

I don't consider the Overvoid as encompassing both. That's strictly you since I already said the Overvoid is the Light. The stories don't even support you since it was also said the Flaw was the “everything” to the Overvoid “nothing.” It indeed didn't remain everything and nothing.

Yeah, because God and Creator are synonymous terms with the Presence. The Presence is an entity, God or the Creator are just titles.

This is meant to be productive?

I've already engaged a dicussion with him last night.
Lmao, he implied that Presence was manifested by someone and name of Presence's just a manifestation of someone and Death Metal re-confirmed that Presence is another name of Source.

The phrases "My time on this plane" and "Shaping a form that we are able to comprehend" seem to conflict with your opinion. However, they indirectly suggest that the Source originates from a realm beyond the sphere of the gods. This is implied by the statement, "My time on this plane is ended," and further supported by Metron's remark, "The Source is shaping into a form that we are able to comprehend." Together, these ideas align with the notion that, in Death of the New Gods, the Source comes from a higher plane.

You keep mentioning that randomly. Feel free to ask that person if they know me or not. This will be my final response regarding that person.

Morrison explicitly stated that the Overvoid is the Page itself (not merely a white page, but the Page in essence), and the Page represents both God and the Void simultaneously. The term "Overvoid" originated from the appearance of a flaw, with characters recognizing it as a Void. Consequently, Allen Adam referred to the Overvoid as a "transparent, eternal Void." There is no specific mention of the Overvoid being associated with Light. If you are referencing Multiversity or JLI, your interpretation is incorrect. These works clarified the vague notion of "immaculate perfection" as the "Perfection of Light," which definitively proves that this refers to Light and not the Overvoid.

I keep asking you to provde a evidence of Presence being creator from starting but everytime I asked, you just provided ur opinion.

The discussion revolves around the Overvoid and Flaw. Perfection is often attributed to the Overvoid, but here’s the twist: perfection is reaffirmed as Light. You could argue that Flaw emerges from the perfection of the Overvoid, as the Overvoid encompasses both Light and Darkness. Therefore, any existence tied to Light or Darkness is inherently connected to the Overvoid.

Just because, you are always saying like " There's nothing before light " meanwhile, God literally brought Light onto Darkness, which disprove ur opinion of " Nothing existed before Light " + Self-referential void is God.

So, it's just an opposite part of Light lol.

flaw is flaw bro, however you tryna to say, most of them are conflicting with previous origins except Light appeared on Darkness.

Meanwhile, bro literally accused me of siding with someone he had a conflict with and even threw around the term "mental gymnastics," which is basically defined as making baseless arguments supported only by opinions.

Just because the story directly implied as " Great Darkness " like twice, there's no specific evidence of mentioning " Tgd in that comic isn't actual Tgd " these are just head-canons.

No. Presence is Source, they shared same concept like Judo-christianity god,Supreme being of greater omniverse, a manifestation that came down to keep balance multiverse. There's no specific evidence of Presence getting described as " Creator ' or " God ".

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Ignoring your baseless theory that writers would have to favor the Presence because of their assumed religious beliefs, the Presence is a fictional character, that has been disrespected by other characters, threatened, painted in a non-positive way multiple times, and even got killed and turned evil at one point. DC fans generally couldn’t care less about the Presence being “bashed”(whatever that means), and you are definitely a minority in thinking an abrahamic based character deserves favoritism.


Are you implying that the entity seen in that story wasn’t the Presence? If so that’s blatantly false, as he was literally called the Spectre’s master in that same issue. Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, the story still presents the Presence as being equal to a mere fraction of the Upside Down Man, as evident from said fraction being considered the Presences “shadow partner locked in endless fight”, and the multiple instances that would come after showcasing them evenly matched while arm wrestling.


The great darkness didn’t surround the sphere of gods, and the Light and Darkness extend to the same extent as each other so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Also btw, Tynion himself has said that the Presence is powered by belief and exist within the Silver City, sitting on premium mobile. So it seems that he’s not on board with your ultimate reality interpretation.


There is not a single statement saying the Presence predates creation myths.

Also you can’t just dismiss entire stories because they don’t align with your interpretation’s Goofy. Hecate’s origin starts before the Godsphere within the Collective Unconscious which they would call a raw state of magic. From this Hecate would shape and give herself form in response to humanities first dream of the impossible. So she wasn’t the first resident of the Godsphere, she was the Collective Unconscious itself and the reality from which all the Godsphere realms were derived. There’s absolutely nothing in this origin suggesting that he created the Sphere of Gods or Hecate, and I don’t even know how you could claim such a thing considering how he’s depicted in JLD. This story literally has a scene where the Presence is directly acknowledged as locking up Heaven because of the Upside Down Man, meaning he was in the Godsphere during this time and is afraid of Hecate’s opposite. Additionally, while accessing the Upside Down Man’s power, Nabu and the Lords of Order were on the verge of storming heavens gates and burning his realm down, a claim which would be backed by credible magical characters like Swamp Thing. If the Presence was this simplex, ultimate reality type of God like you’re making him out to be none of this would be happening.

In essence, Presence is simply a manifestation of Source, and Source is another name for Presence because Presence itself is the manifestation of it.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Overvoid is retconned as the light and its compared to flickering candle when in its compared to the great darkness . The only true Void is DC is the Divine presence which is referred to as the void beyond all the voids .

Where did it mention Overvoid as Light?

 

[AndrewBennet]

The Source is literally said to be born out of Dark .

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ignoring your baseless theory that writers would have to favor the Presence because of their assumed religious beliefs, the Presence is a fictional character, that has been disrespected by other characters, threatened, painted in a non-positive way multiple times, and even got killed and turned evil at one point. DC fans generally couldn’t care less about the Presence being “bashed”(whatever that means), and you are definitely a minority in thinking an abrahamic based character deserves favoritism.

I like how you overshot what I said. I never claimed “Writers have a bias toward the Presence due to rigorous belief.” I'm quite sure that most, if not all writers can differentiate between what’s real and what's fictional. The point I made was that the audience especially in the Western market typically has some sort of monotheistic view and a lot of the time “God” in these stories is easier to define through that view, which isn't surprising given that most time “God” or the Presence creating Creation reflects a lot upon Judeo-Christain mythology. Even without all the religious debacle, a lot of these stories do paint the Presence as a supreme fountainhead(something you can't deny.)

Your problem stems from the fact you think every mention of “God or gods” means that would include the Presence——which is obviously wrong. Most stories clarify matters on what they denote as “God” in a supreme sense or just a conventional God of regular endeavor. Most times these things come from villains monolgouing about how great they are and spill some sort of “I’m greater than God” stigma. Sort of like the case for Blight and the Presence.

Are you implying that the entity seen in that story wasn’t the Presence? If so that’s blatantly false, as he was literally called the Spectre’s master in that same issue. Regardless of what your personal beliefs are, the story still presents the Presence as being equal to a mere fraction of the Upside Down Man, as evident from said fraction being considered the Presences “shadow partner locked in endless fight”, and the multiple instances that would come after showcasing them evenly matched while arm wrestling.

The Swamp Thing story already referenced God existing beyond the duality of light and darkness. So, it's more pronounced to say the Darkness matches God’s “light” as opposed to God entirely.

Again, Justice League Incarnate version of the Darkness takes precedence over Justice League Dark due to the publication order. Regardless, he wrote Death Metal alongside Snyder and I highly doubt that Tynion would inject a view about the Presence being lesser than his own energy.

The great darkness didn’t surround the sphere of gods, and the Light and Darkness extend to the same extent as each other so I don’t know what you’re talking about. Also btw, Tynion himself has said that the Presence is powered by belief and exist within the Silver City, sitting on premium mobile. So it seems that he’s not on board with your ultimate reality interpretation.

You tend to want to filter out information. Firstly, the Presence aspects live in Heaven due to how emanation works. A lot of these stories always claim they can't fully comprehend his true form and it exists outside Creation. Due to the concept of Omnipresence he can be in Heaven and outside Creation at the same time.

Using your logic that he is above Spectre and Eclipso. Then I can take it as Eclipso>=Hecate>=Upside Downman. There we go easy as that.

There is not a single statement saying the Presence predates creation myths.

It’s very apparent in almost every story. I'm going to guess you’re being satirical here.

Also you can’t just dismiss entire stories because they don’t align with your interpretation’s Goofy. Hecate’s origin starts before the Godsphere within the Collective Unconscious which they would call a raw state of magic. From this Hecate would shape and give herself form in response to humanities first dream of the impossible. So she wasn’t the first resident of the Godsphere, she was the Collective Unconscious itself and the reality from which all the Godsphere realms were derived. There’s absolutely nothing in this origin suggesting that he created the Sphere of Gods or Hecate, and I don’t even know how you could claim such a thing considering how he’s depicted in JLD. This story literally has a scene where the Presence is directly acknowledged as locking up Heaven because of the Upside Down Man, meaning he was in the Godsphere during this time and is afraid of Hecate’s opposite. Additionally, while accessing the Upside Down Man’s power, Nabu and the Lords of Order were on the verge of storming heavens gates and burning his realm down, a claim which would be backed by credible magical characters like Swamp Thing. If the Presence was this simplex, ultimate reality type of God like you’re making him out to be none of this would be happening.

The story quite literally said she was the first resident. She was easily replaceable with other foreign things as such she didn't embody “Chaos Magic” which came from the Dark Multiverse and Circe needing Eclipso to finally bind herself as “Magic” itself despite her replacing Hecate.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Should Great darkness get a seperate key since it's non dual before the concept of light.

No, that's not necessary. @NHTkenshin2 can interpret what “self-referential” means all he likes. It doesn't require self to reference self, just if it refers to oneself. The Source and Darkness relation is perfectly fine as I explained above.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

The Source is literally said to be born out of Dark .

Source isn't Overvoid. I've already debunked that, there's no specific evidence about Light getting described as Overvoid.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I've already engaged a dicussion with him last night.
Lmao, he implied that Presence was manifested by someone and name of Presence's just a manifestation of someone and Death Metal re-confirmed that Presence is another name of Source.

The statement literally say they are of equal status. It does not mention “manifestation.”

The phrases "My time on this plane" and "Shaping a form that we are able to comprehend" seem to conflict with your opinion. However, they indirectly suggest that the Source originates from a realm beyond the sphere of the gods. This is implied by the statement, "My time on this plane is ended," and further supported by Metron's remark, "The Source is shaping into a form that we are able to comprehend." Together, these ideas align with the notion that, in Death of the New Gods, the Source comes from a higher plane.

First of all, he formed the Fifth World and that was the plan of the Source. So “his time on this plane being done” is because he did what he wanted to do.

Secondly, you can manifest yourself within Creation and be outside it at the same time. The Source is aspatial and timeless as well as Omnipresent. It's not impossible to imagine that it could do that.

You keep mentioning that randomly. Feel free to ask that person if they know me or not. This will be my final response regarding that person.

If you break and dissect my argument then it'd be easier to tell what point of mine you're referring to.

Morrison explicitly stated that the Overvoid is the Page itself (not merely a white page, but the Page in essence), and the Page represents both God and the Void simultaneously. The term "Overvoid" originated from the appearance of a flaw, with characters recognizing it as a Void. Consequently, Allen Adam referred to the Overvoid as a "transparent, eternal Void." There is no specific mention of the Overvoid being associated with Light. If you are referencing Multiversity or JLI, your interpretation is incorrect. These works clarified the vague notion of "immaculate perfection" as the "Perfection of Light," which definitively proves that this refers to Light and not the Overvoid.

The page is the white page, he even says it himself. Is there a black, green, red, blue—-or any of the colour spectrums I am missing here? Most depictions of a “blank page” especially ones that comics are written in is “white.”

Also, we've discussed this “Immaculate Perfection” or just “Perfection” in general refers to the Overvoid.

I keep asking you to provde a evidence of Presence being creator from starting but everytime I asked, you just provided ur opinion.

No, it's in the Cosmology page. How about you just read it there.

The discussion revolves around the Overvoid and Flaw. Perfection is often attributed to the Overvoid, but here’s the twist: perfection is reaffirmed as Light. You could argue that Flaw emerges from the perfection of the Overvoid, as the Overvoid encompasses both Light and Darkness. Therefore, any existence tied to Light or Darkness is inherently connected to the Overvoid.

No, the Darkness was the cause of the Flaw, not the Overvoid which it found as a foreign thing. It did not cause it nor created it.

Just because, you are always saying like " There's nothing before light " meanwhile, God literally brought Light onto Darkness, which disprove ur opinion of " Nothing existed before Light " + Self-referential void is God.

Yeah, nothing existed before Light and that's the Darkness. God in this case would be beyond everything and nothing, which is not the Overvoid.

So, it's just an opposite part of Light lol.

Never once did they mention the Darkness as being dual with the Light, they do certainly mention the Light being the Overvoid, though.

flaw is flaw bro, however you tryna to say, most of them are conflicting with previous origins except Light appeared on Darkness.

I prefer listening to current information and origin story than previously established ones because the more recent story takes precedence over older ones.

Meanwhile, bro literally accused me of siding with someone he had a conflict with and even threw around the term "mental gymnastics," which is basically defined as making baseless arguments supported only by opinions.

I stand by this point.

Just because the story directly implied as " Great Darkness " like twice, there's no specific evidence of mentioning " Tgd in that comic isn't actual Tgd " these are just head-canons.

You can read the story. It's explained very well.

No. Presence is Source, they shared same concept like Judo-christianity god,Supreme being of greater omniverse, a manifestation that came down to keep balance multiverse. There's no specific evidence of Presence getting described as " Creator ' or " God ".

Imma ignore this point based on how dumb it sounds.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

The statement literally say they are of equal status. It does not mention “manifestation.”

First of all, he formed the Fifth World and that was the plan of the Source. So “his time on this plane being done” is because he did what he wanted to do.

Secondly, you can manifest yourself within Creation and be outside it at the same time. The Source is aspatial and timeless as well as Omnipresent. It's not impossible to imagine that it could do that.

If you break and dissect my argument then it'd be easier to tell what point of mine you're referring to.

The page is the white page, he even says it himself. Is there a black, green, red, blue—-or any of the colour spectrums I am missing here? Most depictions of a “blank page” especially ones that comics are written in is “white.”

Also, we've discussed this “Immaculate Perfection” or just “Perfection” in general refers to the Overvoid.

No, it's in the Cosmology page. How about you just read it there.

No, the Darkness was the cause of the Flaw, not the Overvoid which it found as a foreign thing. It did not cause it nor created it.

Yeah, nothing existed before Light and that's the Darkness. God in this case would be beyond everything and nothing, which is not the Overvoid.

Never once did they mention the Darkness as being dual with the Light, they do certainly mention the Light being the Overvoid, though.

I prefer listening to current information and origin story than previously established ones because the more recent story takes precedence over older ones.

I stand by this point.

You can read the story. It's explained very well.

Imma ignore this point based on how dumb it sounds.

I'm talking about JLA comic.

I'm not talking about his plan, I'm talking about Source's mentioning " Plane ", Time on this plane is ended actuallu indicates that Source came from different plane and Metron statement actually confirmed that Source came from higher plane.


Yea? I'm countering your claim of "It's not manifestation but Source itself "

???

He implied Source as White page, which he also stated that's sort of god. Meanwhile, he implied Overvoid as Page which is God itself and you are forgetting that Nature of Overvoid was stated as a page that encompassing everything at once and Allen Adam stated Overvoid as Transparent void which isn't Light or Dark.

It reconfirmed as "Perfection of light" but it's related to Overvoid cuz Overvoid contains both Light and Dark.

I don't see anything that can solve with my question outta there.

It actually has multiple conflictions, TGD confessed that, he never did any of these things and Flaw was dropped by someone. I agree that the flaw appeared upon Overvoid and Light but I disagree that was caused by scream of darkness.

There's no specific evidence of God exists beyond the influence of nothing and everything. God already existed along with Darkness and I already proved that, Overvoid is the closest one to be God.

Blackest Nights directly implied Source as opposite of TGD + they are balancing. You are keep saying about Multiversity and JLI one as they already reconfirmed that, It appeared on perfection of Light.

The current information ( JLI ) have multiple flaws, it has contradiction between Perpetua being mother of all crisis and The Great Darkness's plans, Dax Novu and Rox Ogama, Deadly Green and Vandal Savage's plans conflicting with JLI.

So, u confessed about u offended me first?

Sure, I've already read that comic twice but it doesn't fit with ur head-canon.

I've already countered Elizio's providence about Presence being Supreme being. You can freely read it in Elizio's thread.

 

[Elizio33]

You didn't contradict anything. The Presence or the Abrahamic God being the God of the DCU is something most stories agree on and is not limited only by the Sphere of the Gods. The scan from Death Metal does not contradict the fact that The Source could be an aspect or emanation of The Presence as it could be the same as The Word as I said previously in my thread.

And JLI's information that the Great Darkness is the cause of all bad things in the DC Multiverse was falsified by the Great Darkness itself in the Deadly Green. So Perpetua is still the cause of the Crises while the origins of the Light and the Great Darkness is true. The Overvoid has been retconned to be the same as The Light, that's all.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I'm talking about JLA comic.

The JLA scan doesn't mention anything. The only scan I can think of is when it was said the Presence made self-manifest which means he created his consciousness within the Void. This aligns with a lot of stories since the Presence in his true form is this state of pure existence as opposed to an entity that his creations can interact with a lesser form.

I'm not talking about his plan, I'm talking about Source's mentioning " Plane ", Time on this plane is ended actuallu indicates that Source came from different plane and Metron statement actually confirmed that Source came from higher plane.

That's not at all what the scans say nor does it imply. He did what he needed to do and decided to leave, that's not something that's hard to interpret.

Yea? I'm countering your claim of "It's not manifestation but Source itself "

You're doing a bad job at it I hope that was clear.

He implied Source as White page, which he also stated that's sort of god. Meanwhile, he implied Overvoid as Page which is God itself and you are forgetting that Nature of Overvoid was stated as a page that encompassing everything at once and Allen Adam stated Overvoid as Transparent void which isn't Light or Dark.

Do you miss interpret everything being said? “Sort of Void” is talking about the specifics around the Source which he claims is one with the Overvoid:

Morrison: Yeah, it's a bit of that. It's also the idea that they're like angels as well. For me, the cool, essential idea of all stories being real creates this great cosmology to play with. It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible. As I dug down closer to the very root of the activity I find myself engaged in as a career, I was thinking "what is the basis of the comic book story? What actually is it?"

Literally said by him up above that they're the same thing.

It reconfirmed as "Perfection of light" but it's related to Overvoid cuz Overvoid contains both Light and Dark.

It says when the Light was perfect.

It actually has multiple conflictions, TGD confessed that, he never did any of these things and Flaw was dropped by someone. I agree that the flaw appeared upon Overvoid and Light but I disagree that was caused by scream of darkness.

The Great Darkness affirms he didn't start “Dark Crisis” not that he didn't do anything.

After the Darkness screamed it said “this caused” meaning it was the cause of the Flaw, which the Overvoid finds to be interesting.

There's no specific evidence of God exists beyond the influence of nothing and everything. God already existed along with Darkness and I already proved that, Overvoid is the closest one to be God.

The Presence “is” God thus not only is it closer, but it is the very thing itself. Light represent “everything” and Darkness “nothing” would mean God is above both. The Cosmology blog also shows it.

Blackest Nights directly implied Source as opposite of TGD + they are balancing. You are keep saying about Multiversity and JLI one as they already reconfirmed that, It appeared on perfection of Light.

Blackest Nights didn't do anything major on the scale of understanding what the Light and Dark are.

Yeah, the Overvoid appeared as a perfection of light.

The current information ( JLI ) have multiple flaws, it has contradiction between Perpetua being mother of all crisis and The Great Darkness's plans, Dax Novu and Rox Ogama, Deadly Green and Vandal Savage's plans conflicting with JLI.

Death Metal heavily contradicts Final Crisis as well. Obviously, writing styles and story origins changes all the time. Welcome to the world of fiction.

So, u confessed about u offended me first?

I never said anything offensive. You did.

Sure, I've already read that comic twice but it doesn't fit with ur head-canon.

Ironic.

I've already countered Elizio's providence about Presence being Supreme being. You can freely read it in Elizio's thread.

No, your points are horrible, and not all supported by the comics.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

You didn't contradict anything. The Presence or the Abrahamic God being the God of the DCU is something most stories agree on and is not limited only by the Sphere of the Gods. The scan from Death Metal does not contradict the fact that The Source could be an aspect or emanation of The Presence as it could be the same as The Word as I said previously in my thread.

And JLI's information that the Great Darkness is the cause of all bad things in the DC Multiverse was falsified by the Great Darkness itself in the Deadly Green. So Perpetua is still the cause of the Crises while the origins of the Light and the Great Darkness is true. The Overvoid has been retconned to be the same as The Light, that's all.

Lol, the scan I've posted contradicted with ur claim. It seems like u are trying to put your head-canon over canon interpretation, which already stated that Abrahamic God's just Supreme being of God sphere. Lmao, Scott putted them in same position, same Source of energy, they didn't mentioned Source as manifestation of Presence. The voice is manifestation of Presence which is Supreme being in multiverse ( but not possibly in greater omniverse ). And, " the word " or similar entities are created by yours but not by DC.

It's should be correct until TGD confessed in Deadly Green. So, it actually turned back to Perpetua being mother of all crisis. This would be 5th time confessing, I AGREE LIGHT APPEARED ON GREAT DARKNESS BUT DOESN'T AGREE WITH OTHER'S. Overvoid never get retconned as Light, I've already proved it for multiple times

 

[Xearsay]

I like how you overshot what I said. I never claimed “Writers have a bias toward the Presence due to rigorous belief.” I'm quite sure that most, if not all writers can differentiate between what’s real and what's fictional. The point I made was that the audience especially in the Western market typically has some sort of monotheistic view and a lot of the time “God” in these stories is easier to define through that view, which isn't surprising given that most time “God” or the Presence creating Creation reflects a lot upon Judeo-Christain mythology. Even without all the religious debacle, a lot of these stories do paint the Presence as a supreme fountainhead(something you can't deny.)

Translation: He’s an abrahamic God and America has a large Christian population so he has to be the supreme being of the verse.

You basically said all of what I claimed you were saying but with extra steps. Also you directly did include the writers being religious in one of your previous responses to me, so let’s not start lying. If you could prove the Presence was supreme based off nothing but the comic book material, then why are you even using these non-comic related arguments at all?

Your problem stems from the fact you think every mention of “God or gods” means that would include the Presence——which is obviously wrong. Most stories clarify matters on what they denote as “God” in a supreme sense or just a conventional God of regular endeavor. Most times these things come from villains monolgouing about how great they are and spill some sort of “I’m greater than God” stigma. Sort of like the case for Blight and the Presence.

It was established in Trinity of Sin that the Presence could never kill Blight and that he could only be driven back into the Collective Unconscious, which once again contradicts the Presence being anywhere near how you’re interpreting him.

The Swamp Thing story already referenced God existing beyond the duality of light and darkness. So, it's more pronounced to say the Darkness matches God’s “light” as opposed to God entirely.

The Presence was already identified as the light matching the darkness in Swamp Thing #50. So the non-dual God at the end of Swamp Thing #75 would transcend both the Presence and the Darkness, which is you know, what’s literally shown in that same issue. You cant just rewrite the story and claim the Presence is a character that he’s directly shown not to be, to fit your interpretation.

Again, Justice League Incarnate version of the Darkness takes precedence over Justice League Dark due to the publication order. Regardless, he wrote Death Metal alongside Snyder and I highly doubt that Tynion would inject a view about the Presence being lesser than his own energy.

Lmao, there is no Justice League Incarnate version vs Justice League Dark version of the Darkness, it’s literally the same character taking place in the same canon. Publication order is also entirely irrelevant to my claims since I don’t consider the Great Darkness contradictory across both stories.

How are you gonna doubt what I just proved is the case? You talked up and down this thread about writers like Tynion’s interpretation of the Presence being in alignment with yours, despite Tynions own statements going against that notion completely. Instead, Tynion goes on to support every notion that I’ve been saying such as the Presence existing within Heaven and relying on belief to sustain his power, both of which are things you routinely deny because they dismantle your ridiculous non-dual, ultimate reality interpretation of the character.

You tend to want to filter out information.

Nah that’s definitely what you’re doing.

Firstly, the Presence aspects live in Heaven due to how emanation works. A lot of these stories always claim they can't fully comprehend his true form and it exists outside Creation. Due to the concept of Omnipresence he can be in Heaven and outside Creation at the same time.

Wrong, the Presence does not have an emanation in Heaven, and that’s never been stated anywhere. In fact the Presence himself has been stated and implied to be in Heaven multiple times throughout the comics, which is something writers like Tynion even support. Also having a true form, doesn’t mean he exist beyond the Godsphere considering all the denizens their have true forms. The omnipresent argument falls flat too as it’s never been demonstrated to extend anywhere near what you’re trying to claim. In fact, there’s actually been repeated instances of other characters being saved by entering locations that are directly stated to be outside of his reach, which is an obvious contradiction if he was truly omnipresent like you’re claiming.

Using your logic that he is above Spectre and Eclipso. Then I can take it as Eclipso>=Hecate>=Upside Downman. There we go easy as that.

No, you can’t because Eclipso was only created out of fear of Hecate in the first place. As acknowledged in the origin, Hecate was unbounded due to the Upside Down Man never manifesting into reality as her opposite. So the great powers(the presence, etc) would craft a being tied to the moon(Hecate) that would act as a dark reflection of her magic, hence the name “Eclips-o”. He’s a shadow that eclipses the moon(Hecate). And as acknowledged earlier, the story directly states that this something they needed to do to give themselves a means of fighting back, because without such a weapon, Hecate was “unstoppable.” So this really isn’t the gotcha moment you think it is. All this does is prove that without Eclipso, the Presence would undoubtedly lose to Hecate and that he needs Eclipso just so he can have a fighting chance against her.

It’s very apparent in almost every story. I'm going to guess you’re being satirical here.

The story quite literally said she was the first resident. She was easily replaceable with other foreign things as such she didn't embody “Chaos Magic” which came from the Dark Multiverse and Circe needing Eclipso to finally bind herself as “Magic” itself despite her replacing Hecate.

There is not a single statement saying she was “replaceable” and I genuinely don’t even know what the means in the context of how you’re using it, so whatever.

Chaos magic came from the Upside Down Man who is literally her other half born out of her taking form and shape, so I don’t know what you think you’re proving by bringing that up. And as for the Circe thing, you’re misunderstanding what’s going on in the story. Circe wanted to become Hecate in her unbounded state, aka untethered from an opposite. Eclipso negates that from happening, hence why she was trying to free him and absorb him into herself. Hecate as she is, unbounded, is still very much beyond the Presence, and her true state as the entire Collective Unconscious is even further beyond the Presence.

So this is how things should look really.

Unmanifested Hecate > unbounded Hecate & Upside Down Man > bounded Hecate & Upside Down Man > Presence/GEB(a fraction of the Upside Down Man’s bounded power).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Translation: He’s an abrahamic God and America has a large Christian population so he has to be the supreme being of the verse.

Not what I said.

You basically said all of what I claimed you were saying but with extra steps. Also you directly did include the writers being religious in one of your previous responses to me, so let’s not start lying. If you could prove the Presence was supreme based off nothing but the comic book material, then why are you even using these non-comic related arguments at all?

Writers being religious =/= The Presence must be supreme. All I said was that they appeal to a larger audience when they use the Judeo-Christain God as their basis for a supreme deity and that's commonly seen in several stories. Nothing about the Presence being Omnipotent or supreme was purely based on that reasoning, I just pointed out that a lot of these stories share that sort of mythology.

It was established in Trinity of Sin that the Presence could never kill Blight and that he could only be driven back into the Collective Unconscious, which once again contradicts the Presence being anywhere near how you’re interpreting him.

No, it was said that he could destroy Blight and all the evil from the world with a word. Constantine already knew that he could when they visited the Voice in Heaven, not to mention Phantom Stranger was told he has a plan with all plans and he didn't want to stop Blight because that would mean tuning Christopher chance at redemption which was the plan all along.

That's also J.M. DeMatteis writing of the Presence and I've talked with him a lot. If there's one being supreme to him in DC, that's the Presence.

The Presence was already identified as the light matching the darkness in Swamp Thing #50. So the non-dual God at the end of Swamp Thing #75 would transcend both the Presence and the Darkness, which is you know, what’s literally shown in that same issue. You cant just rewrite the story and claim the Presence is a character that he’s directly shown not to be, to fit your interpretation.

The Presence wasn't even mentioned by name in #50. Especially since its commonly addresses that the Voice “of” God, being an aspect of God, loved in Heaven as with his “light” as well. I highly doubt they wanted to make the Presence as one and the same as the Light it created. So there's nothing there to detere that wasn't the true shape of God which would refer to the Presence.

Lmao, there is no Justice League Incarnate version vs Justice League Dark version of the Darkness, it’s literally the same character taking place in the same canon. Publication order is also entirely irrelevant to my claims since I don’t consider the Great Darkness contradictory across both stories.

Yeah, and we see that the Upside Dowman isn’t the Darkness as you claim he is.

How are you gonna doubt what I just proved is the case? You talked up and down this thread about writers like Tynion’s interpretation of the Presence being in alignment with yours, despite Tynions own statements going against that notion completely. Instead, Tynion goes on to support every notion that I’ve been saying such as the Presence existing within Heaven and relying on belief to sustain his power, both of which are things you routinely deny because they dismantle your ridiculous non-dual, ultimate reality interpretation of the character.

The Presence can live in Heaven and also be outside of it at the same time ie Omnipresence. More importantly, Tynion has never even mentioned the Presence by name until Death Metal when it was said to be the source of energy that the Hands use to create Multiverses which contains beings like Hecate and the Upside Downman.

Nah that’s definitely what you’re doing.

No, I think you just simply love downplaying the Presence. You had since forever in every forum even when the majority of knowledgeable people say otherwise.

Wrong, the Presence does not have an emanation in Heaven, and that’s never been stated anywhere. In fact the Presence himself has been stated and implied to be in Heaven multiple times throughout the comics, which is something writers like Tynion even support. Also having a true form, doesn’t mean he exist beyond the Godsphere considering all the denizens their have true forms. The omnipresent argument falls flat too as it’s never been demonstrated to extend anywhere near what you’re trying to claim. In fact, there’s actually been repeated instances of other characters being saved by entering locations that are directly stated to be outside of his reach, which is an obvious contradiction if he was truly omnipresent like you’re claiming.

No, he wasn't as we seen in Multiverse’s End where the Source/Presence sits outside the Multiverse at the center of the Greater Omniverse.

Also, they haven't mentioned him to be in Heaven and chronological if you follow Lucifer is still out in the Greater Omniverse. If you said it comes in Creation every once in a while then that's fine or that his aspect lives in Heaven.

No, you can’t because Eclipso was only created out of fear of Hecate in the first place. As acknowledged in the origin, Hecate was unbounded due to the Upside Down Man never manifesting into reality as her opposite. So the great powers(the presence, etc) would craft a being tied to the moon(Hecate) that would act as a dark reflection of her magic, hence the name “Eclips-o”. He’s a shadow that eclipses the moon(Hecate). And as acknowledged earlier, the story directly states that this something they needed to do to give themselves a means of fighting back, because without such a weapon, Hecate was “unstoppable.” So this really isn’t the gotcha moment you think it is. All this does is prove that without Eclipso, the Presence would undoubtedly lose to Hecate and that he needs Eclipso just so he can have a fighting chance against her.

You've already discussed this with other people in the past. If the Presence can create something equal to Hecate in power, then he can definitely stop her. Not to mention, he commands beings much greater than Hecate who technically indirectly created Hecate called the Hands.

There is not a single statement saying she was “replaceable” and I genuinely don’t even know what the means in the context of how you’re using it, so whatever.

Circe replaced her. Also, it was mentioned she hated “magic” had become and wanted to writer her own books of magic untainted by the Lords of Chaos and Order. She's a symbolism for the Moon and the Collective Unconscious, not the thing itself or else her death at the hands of the Upside Downman would have ended magic entirely which is just a byproduct of the Presence’s energy.

Chaos magic came from the Upside Down Man who is literally her other half born out of her taking form and shape, so I don’t know what you think you’re proving by bringing that up. And as for the Circe thing, you’re misunderstanding what’s going on in the story. Circe wanted to become Hecate in her unbounded state, aka untethered from an opposite. Eclipso negates that from happening, hence why she was trying to free him and absorb him into herself. Hecate as she is, unbounded, is still very much beyond the Presence, and her true state as the entire Collective Unconscious is even further beyond the Presence.

Chaos Magic didn't come from the Upside Downman, it was tied down in the Dark Multiverse.

Also, Hecate was trying to win back the Magic the others tainted. She's not synonymous with the term Magic as you think she is. Circe didn't want to become Hecate, she said she wanted to be better.

So this is how things should look really.

Unmanifested Hecate > unbounded Hecate & Upside Down Man > bounded Hecate & Upside Down Man > Presence/GEB(a fraction of the Upside Down Man’s bounded power).

Ok, I guess this is where the fan canon begins.

 

[Xearsay]

Not what I said.

Yes it is.

Writers being religious =/= The Presence must be supreme. All I said was that they appeal to a larger audience when they use the Judeo-Christain God as their basis for a supreme deity and that's commonly seen in several stories. Nothing about the Presence being Omnipotent or supreme was purely based on that reasoning, I just pointed out that a lot of these stories share that sort of mythology.

Holy backpedal. Brother, your first reply to me was literally you claiming that all DC writers as an undisclosed rule, put the Presence at the top due to either their own religious beliefs or to appease their American audience that you’ve presupposed to be Christian-centric.

“However, almost every writer always puts the Presence at the top, it's very evident that is their undisclosed rule as an interview with a guy who works for DC makes it clear. Quite clear since America in general is very Christian-centric and most of the writers won't bash a character like the Presence hence why all the scans talking about “God” in some sort lesser isn't in most cases, if ever at all referring to the Presence.”

^This is literally taken from your own comment. And while sure this wasn’t your only reason for the Presence being supreme, the fact that it was a reason at all is the problem I have.

No, it was said that he could destroy Blight and all the evil from the world with a word. Constantine already knew that he could when they visited the Voice in Heaven, not to mention Phantom Stranger was told he has a plan with all plans and he didn't want to stop Blight because that would mean tuning Christopher chance at redemption which was the plan all along.

No, that was never said at all. The claim was “drive all evil out of the world” which is not the same as destroying it. This is proven at the end of the whole blight arc, when after defeating Blight, Zauriel would directly answer the Phantom Stranger question about if blight was gone, and confirm that Blight is not and cannot be destroyed and can only driven back into the Collective Unconscious.

That's also J.M. DeMatteis writing of the Presence and I've talked with him a lot. If there's one being supreme to him in DC, that's the Presence.

Huh? lol didn’t you just say on page 1 that writers interpretations don’t matter?

“Writers do not determine any interpretation as readers can come to the conclusion they want. In other words, what they say is meaningless and only the printed material truly matters.”

If writers interpretations don’t matter then it seems Dematteis’s interpretation doesn’t automatically invalidate mine or anyone else’s either. Which is you know, something he’s actually told you multiple times, but I’m sure you already know that.

The Presence wasn't even mentioned by name in #50. Especially since its commonly addresses that the Voice “of” God, being an aspect of God, loved in Heaven as with his “light” as well. I highly doubt they wanted to make the Presence as one and the same as the Light it created. So there's nothing there to detere that wasn't the true shape of God which would refer to the Presence.

Right bro, because being called the Spectre’s God and existing in the Silver City is definitely not enough proof for us to identify this as the Presence, and instead we need to see him on panel getting called the “Presence” verbatim for us to prove that it’s him, because being the Spectre’s God, having an army of angels, and existing in the Silver City is definitely not enough.

Yeah, and we see that the Upside Dowman isn’t the Darkness as you claim he is.

He’s the Great Darkness as presented within the Collective Unconscious, which JLI or Dark Crisis haven’t contradicted.

The Presence can live in Heaven and also be outside of it at the same time ie Omnipresence. More importantly, Tynion has never even mentioned the Presence by name until Death Metal when it was said to be the source of energy that the Hands use to create Multiverses which contains beings like Hecate and the Upside Downman.

He’s nigh-omnipresent on the material world and some of the astral realms, but that’s all there’s evidence for. Also the Presence was mentioned verbatim in Justice League Dark which Tynion wrote around this exact same time so that’s just not true.

No, I think you just simply love downplaying the Presence. You had since forever in every forum even when the majority of knowledgeable people say otherwise.

Or I just want this verse to make sense and the Presence being supreme is a pretty nonsensical interpretation that gets in the way of that, hence why you’re creating your own canon by butchering stories that are way to hard for you to reconcile with your interpretation.

No, he wasn't as we seen in Multiverse’s End where the Source/Presence sits outside the Multiverse at the center of the Greater Omniverse.

Also, they haven't mentioned him to be in Heaven and chronological if you follow Lucifer is still out in the Greater Omniverse. If you said it comes in Creation every once in a while then that's fine or that his aspect lives in Heaven.

This wasn’t what your original claim was. You started off this conversation claiming that the Presence was beyond the Source, and that the Source was an aspect of him, but now you’re claiming he’s the equivalent of the Source. I don’t know if you’re aware but this is a concession, and if you agree to concede on this point I’ll address your new stance about him being the Source, but until then I’ll wait for your response.

It was implied as that’s exactly where Etrigan was returning from with a message to lock up heavens gates, which he angrily stressed came specifically from the Presence.

You've already discussed this with other people in the past. If the Presence can create something equal to Hecate in power, then he can definitely stop her. Not to mention, he commands beings much greater than Hecate who technically indirectly created Hecate called the Hands.

Circe replaced her. Also, it was mentioned she hated “magic” had become and wanted to writer her own books of magic untainted by the Lords of Chaos and Order. She's a symbolism for the Moon and the Collective Unconscious, not the thing itself or else her death at the hands of the Upside Downman would have ended magic entirely which is just a byproduct of the Presence’s energy.

Because the surrounding context that you’re leaving out makes it so that’s impossible.

1. The Presence didn’t craft Eclipso by himself. He did it with a group called the “great powers.”

2. It was established that this was something they needed to do to stand a chance against Hecate, meaning without Eclipso, The Presence and his group stood no chance against her.

3. Eclipso’s power is tied to the moon, which is Hecate, implying that his connection which negates Hecate is intrinsically related to Hecate’s own power, meaning they used Hecate’s own power against her, making this not even a showing of power for the presence and his group.

I don’t get what you mean by replaced or what you’re getting with the lords of order and chaos thing, so I’m not gonna waste time making assumptions. As for your point about Hecate’s death, her essence/energy still existed, it just went back to her chosen vessels. Her form as Hecate is what died, which was really only born out of her trying to assimilate with the Gods, despite knowing that she’s beyond them.

Chaos Magic didn't come from the Upside Downman, it was tied down in the Dark Multiverse.

It was literally pulled from the Upside Down Man’s realm and into the material world by Hecate. Which shouldn’t be surprising since you acknowledged that it’s from the Dark Multiverse, where the source of magic is the Otherplace, which is the Upside Down Man.

Also, Hecate was trying to win back the Magic the others tainted. She's not synonymous with the term Magic as you think she is. Circe didn't want to become Hecate, she said she wanted to be better.

Ok, I guess this is where the fan canon begins.

Where are you getting any of that from? She’s directly acknowledged to be magic itself on panel, going nuh uh, is not a counterargument. Also you’re misreading things with Circe again. She stated that she wouldn’t let herself get used by the Gods or mortals like Hecate did, not that she would become more powerful than Hecate ever was.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yes it is.

Your claim is that I said “The Presence is supreme due to religious bias.” I’ve made no such claims.

You're not getting the point. Most of the writers tend to either be religious or somewhat weary on using the Presence as a stand-in for the Judeo-Christian God hence why they don't randomly make the character seem weaker than it needs to be. They're not just randomly going in their way to bash out the character which may stir some sort of controversy especially if they pivot the character largely as the supreme deity not unlike most Western conceptions of God. This is very obvious when you read the story.

All what was said above was typically the Presence is used as a stand-in for the Judeo-Christian God either that they want to handle the topic carefully or using some sort of mysticism surrounding the character particualry when it comes to creation origin and the hierarchy.

Holy backpedal. Brother, your first reply to me was literally you claiming that all DC writers as an undisclosed rule, put the Presence at the top due to either their own religious beliefs or to appease their American audience that you’ve presupposed to be Christian-centric.

I already said writers know what to differentiate between real and fiction. They use the “Presence” as a stand-in for it, mostly to get most of their audience since a lot of them in the western market are familiar with it. I never mentioned “writer's bias” and the mention of writer being religious is that they're using their background knowledge of it, they're not making it a one-to-one as that's against the literal codes of ethics they're bound to.

“However, almost every writer always puts the Presence at the top, it's very evident that is their undisclosed rule as an interview with a guy who works for DC makes it clear. Quite clear since America in general is very Christian-centric and most of the writers won't bash a character like the Presence hence why all the scans talking about “God” in some sort lesser isn't in most cases, if ever at all referring to the Presence.”

^This is literally taken from your own comment. And while sure this wasn’t your only reason for the Presence being supreme, the fact that it was a reason at all is the problem I have.

Yeah, supports nothing you said unless you want to misinterpret what was said.

No, that was never said at all. The claim was “drive all evil out of the world” which is not the same as destroying it. This is proven at the end of the whole blight arc, when after defeating Blight, Zauriel would directly answer the Phantom Stranger question about if blight was gone, and confirm that Blight is not and cannot be destroyed and can only driven back into the Collective Unconscious.

The statement of driving all the evil out the world only has one meaning. It doesn't just apply to Blight but all the dark psyche of human consciousness which Blight is but one of. The reasoning for Blight being there is because he forms from all the negativity of human consciousness which again the Presence could easily destroy all of Creation that he’s dreaming of.

Huh? lol didn’t you just say on page 1 that writers interpretations don’t matter?

What he says is supported in the story(not that it matters, but a writer supporting his very direct writing is better than nothing). Of course, a background knowledge on a writer does help abit and that's considering that all of his stories share that all of Creation is nothing but a dream of God. So Blight doesn't remotely even matter anymore than anyone else as stated by the Presence was part of his plan and he is the center of all centers.

“Writers do not determine any interpretation as readers can come to the conclusion they want. In other words, what they say is meaningless and only the printed material truly matters.”

I didn't base my argument on that. I just wanted you to know nothing of the story nor the author supports your point.

If writers interpretations don’t matter then it seems Dematteis’s interpretation doesn’t automatically invalidate mine or anyone else’s either. Which is you know, something he’s actually told you multiple times, but I’m sure you already know that.

I'm sure you already know how he writes God/Presence in his story and that Blight doesn't come anywhere near him or his aspect.

Right bro, because being called the Spectre’s God and existing in the Silver City is definitely not enough proof for us to identify this as the Presence, and instead we need to see him on panel getting called the “Presence” verbatim for us to prove that it’s him, because being the Spectre’s God, having an army of angels, and existing in the Silver City is definitely not enough.

The Presence literally has been called by name in multiple instances. You can name-drop God in several instances that applies to both aspect and true form.

He’s the Great Darkness as presented within the Collective Unconscious, which JLI or Dark Crisis haven’t contradicted.

It does since Darkseid literally claims that he alongside many others(Upside Downman included) are trying to control it. Not to mention, Pariah literally enslaved the Upside Downman with a fraction of the Darkness's power.

He’s nigh-omnipresent on the material world and some of the astral realms, but that’s all there’s evidence for. Also the Presence was mentioned verbatim in Justice League Dark which Tynion wrote around this exact same time so that’s just not true.

No, he wasn't? None of what Tynion wrote ever mentions of the Presence being limited to the material plane and Heaven. That's a random headcanon of yours.

Or I just want this verse to make sense and the Presence being supreme is a pretty nonsensical interpretation that gets in the way of that, hence why you’re creating your own canon by butchering stories that are way to hard for you to reconcile with your interpretation.

That's rich coming from you.

This wasn’t what your original claim was. You started off this conversation claiming that the Presence was beyond the Source, and that the Source was an aspect of him, but now you’re claiming he’s the equivalent of the Source. I don’t know if you’re aware but this is a concession, and if you agree to concede on this point I’ll address your new stance about him being the Source, but until then I’ll wait for your response.

Again, you're misinterpreting what I said. I claimed the Source is an aspect of the Presence as that's been my clear stance since this thread first started. You mentioned the “Presence” doesn't have emanation within Creation which I literally mention the “Source” an aspect of the Presence that existed outside the Multiverse.

The problem at hand was the claim from you saying the Presence is only himself and only within Heaven. Which is ludacris given that an aspect of him exists in the Greater Omniverse. Unlike you I've been very keen on saying the Presence can come in many form of the same name as long as we know which it applies as just an aspect or the full entity itself. I wouldn't been making random changes in my interpretation so I suggest you get that idea down that when I say Source/Presence, I'm referring to an aspect of God.

It was implied as that’s exactly where Etrigan was returning from with a message to lock up heavens gates, which he angrily stressed came specifically from the Presence.

“Implied” to no one but you.

Because the surrounding context that you’re leaving out makes it so that’s impossible.

1. The Presence didn’t craft Eclipso by himself. He did it with a group called the “great powers.”

I was going at the notion that the Presence did create him. However, it was quite clear that Eclipso had an origin change. Which the old powers was referring to the gods that pissed Hecate whom walked the earth which the Presence never had nor had even interacted with Hecate. So he wasn't part of the “old powers” but he could certainly create him by himself

2. It was established that this was something they needed to do to stand a chance against Hecate, meaning without Eclipso, The Presence and his group stood no chance against her.

The Presence in literally every depiction does not use other pantheons as lackeys. If it were made clear they would of mentioned the Presence directly as one of them but he's not.

3. Eclipso’s power is tied to the moon, which is Hecate, implying that his connection which negates Hecate is intrinsically related to Hecate’s own power, meaning they used Hecate’s own power against her, making this not even a showing of power for the presence and his group.

They certainly created Eclipso to mirror her power. However, the story also mentions that the power also eclipses her own. Not to mention Diana literally stating she couldn't stop Eclispo on her own nor did she ever control it. Also, that Eclipso had more power than all the gods that walked the Earth includes Hecate.

I don’t get what you mean by replaced or what you’re getting with the lords of order and chaos thing, so I’m not gonna waste time making assumptions. As for your point about Hecate’s death, her essence/energy still existed, it just went back to her chosen vessels. Her form as Hecate is what died, which was really only born out of her trying to assimilate with the Gods, despite knowing that she’s beyond them.

You're really unbelievable.

As the witchmark faded, she felt the death rattle of Hecate echo through magic itself.

I don't know how anyone else can intrepret that other than her death. Which is made clear when Circe became the new goddess of “magic” in the next panel.

It was literally pulled from the Upside Down Man’s realm and into the material world by Hecate. Which shouldn’t be surprising since you acknowledged that it’s from the Dark Multiverse, where the source of magic is the Otherplace, which is the Upside Down Man.

I don't know if you read the story, however, nothing of what you said is true. The Dark Magic was tied to the Dark Multiverse which far preceded the Upside Downman who claims it was “theirs” indicating it was a possession of his since he ruled the Dark, or specifically just the Otherplace. Like how Hecate isn't the creator of the Sphere nor Magic itself but her possession was that raw potiental of magic when she was the first resident of the Sphere.

And with all her might and fury, she reached through the veils of the Multiverse into its dark double, and pulled a piece of the dark magic into the world.

^I don't see where Upside Downman is mentioned, but I do see a “Multiverse dark double” which is of course is referring to the Dark Multiverse.

We all know the Otherplace was just the twisting of Upside Downman of the Void which was a control of will. Now, I’m not going to lose hope that you would say something on the lines of “Upside Downman is the Darkness and the Dark Multiverse.” In the same story, it clarifies he's neither.

Beneath the Sphere of the Gods, there was a darker…..Otherplace. Tied to a darker, other Multiverse. As she formed from the light, he formed from the darkness. Upside-down staring at her

Where are you getting any of that from? She’s directly acknowledged to be magic itself on panel, going nuh uh, is not a counterargument. Also you’re misreading things with Circe again. She stated that she wouldn’t let herself get used by the Gods or mortals like Hecate did, not that she would become more powerful than Hecate ever was.

That's because she isn't acknowledged as magic itself. It said she was the first magical being of a realm of potential. Magic also didn't die when she died. Circe also said she was manipulating the two pillars of magic with her own power which signifies that magic is separate. She's just the goddess of magic and was easily replaced after her death.

The only scan says she was Magic was JLD #16 and even in that story, it's proven she wasn't after all it took place after her death, and Circe ruled the Collective Unconscious as she was all that was there. Entire story arc of Witching Hour including the same issues denote she was trying to take control of magic again. Which again literally tells us she is not magic itself.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Your claim is that I said “The Presence is supreme due to religious bias.” I’ve made no such claims.

All what was said above was typically the Presence is used as a stand-in for the Judeo-Christian God either that they want to handle the topic carefully or using some sort of mysticism surrounding the character particualry when it comes to creation origin and the hierarchy.

Head-canon + doesn't make Presence supreme being.

Okay but where did it mentioned Presence as Judo-Christianity God? there's no specific evidence. Creating heaven or similarity doesn't make Presence as Christanity God as Heaven also exists in other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Head-canon + doesn't make Presence supreme being.

Not headcanon. They called him “Yahweh” all throughout Lucifer. They also claimed he created the Heavens and the Earth, etc….he very much had that sort of origin.

Okay but where did it mentioned Presence as Judo-Christianity God? there's no specific evidence. Creating heaven or similarity doesn't make Presence as Christanity God as Heaven also exists in other religions like Buddhism and Hinduism.

He created Heaven alongside having angelic servants who see him as their creator and father figure. He very much was intended s ssuch that's such an easy concept to understand.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Not headcanon. They called him “Yahweh” all throughout Lucifer. They also claimed he created the Heavens and the Earth, etc….he very much had that sort of origin.

He created Heaven alongside having angelic servants who see him as their creator and father figure. He very much was intended s ssuch that's such an easy concept to understand.

Doesn't make him Christianity's God and Light created Earth's.

Source also created new genesis which is based on genesis and Source was stated to be direct biblical God so, Source prob closer than Presence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Doesn't make him Christianity's God and Light created Earth's.

He is a monotheistic God, not exactly the Christianity God since we don't index things like that. The Light being an aspect of the Presence does indicate anything it does is through the medium of him.

Source also created new genesis which is based on genesis and Source was stated to be direct biblical God so, Source prob closer than Presence.

No, it's not. The Source comparison is allegorical, there's no such thing as “new gods” or “new gensis.” However, a creator entity ruling in Heaven over angels and the Host is. What kind of conclusion is that?

 

[Swanyee9t76]

He is a monotheistic God, not exactly the Christianity God since we don't index things like that. The Light being an aspect of the Presence does indicate anything it does is through the medium of him.

No, it's not. The Source comparison is allegorical, there's no such thing as “new gods” or “new gensis.” However, a creator entity ruling in Heaven over angels and the Host is. What kind of conclusion is that?

So, The Source does? He's also not Monotheistic God because he is Source.

Jack Kirby already stated in his interview that he based new gods and all of his comics on Bible and Source is Christianity God + there are multiple heavens across different religions and Angles also existed in some religion like Buddhism,they are known as Nats. Ruling heaven doesn't make him Christianity God, Source has affirmation to be Christianity God but Presence isn't.