If they channel/focus their energy into it then it’s High 1-A+. The only exception is if there’s something that’s a bigger aspect such as Pralaya being more powerful than the Creator, so his unconscious is more powerful than his aspect of Creation.
This just makes it a sort-of redundant tier, the Tier 0s simplicity makes it so its power and agency aren't different from his essence, so channeling that to an avatar would just make its tier variable, but up to Tier 0 as far as I'm concerned, unless you want a 'degree' in the Tier 0s power, which isn't possible. In addition to that, the Light is also an aspect of the Presence, so this argument could be made there as well, but it isn't, which is weird since it's also accepted as the canvas on which the Presence can make anything.
High 1-A+ is the power or some sort of space a 0 can generate if it is directly mentioned to be so. So there's really nothing to discuss this any further since the Light being an aspect of the Presence is in relation to 0 producing a lesser within the framework of a hierarchy and that “lesser” being that apex.
This is largely an incoherent paragraph, but if you're trying to say that the Voice is in some way 'more' of an intermediary of the Presence than the Light is, then that would have to be proven, which it remains to be so on the profile.
It is proven as seen in Swamp Thing, the Voice commanded the Word which spoke “let there be light.” This is literally how High 1-A+ is defined and we are going by the rules set in place. You can take your concerns and issues with it, but there's no discrepency between the relationship between the Presence and the Voice being higher than the Light.
Yeah, and that doesn't denote more important in story citation saying otherwise. Plus, the Voice acting on all levels isn't dismissed and it seems that is talking more about where it's most common. So the Voice existing in all places while not being limited to one lower plane is an obvious indication of its Omnipresence.
Well no, creating a 1-A being isn't a High 1-A+ feat, self-evidently.
Is this supposed to be rhetorical? A 0 directing its power would only suffice to one singular being unless it's saying the Cosmology is purely based on what 0 created(for example, DeMatteis). A High 1-A+ doesn't share that same logic, and if it did then 1-A is more probable since getting to High 1-A is a different requirement altogether without name-dropping possible worlds or entire planes of existence much above the qualitative hierarchy.
Back to my other post, then.
Not really, the Presence is using the Voice as its agency would suffice since 0 are immutable and not part of any hierarchy. 0 itself is its oneness and the Voice would be that intermediary between it and everything else.
That's the thing, I don't disagree. But since the Voice is clearly intended to be the manifest agency of the Presence in creation–hence the H1A+ tier–what you'd be saying is essentially that the potency of the Presence is limited to H1A+, which is sort-of shooting the Tier 0 rating in the foot.
It doesn't. 0 lacks size, division, quality, and sepretaion. Nothing outside itself can be 0. The Voice is still a “separation” thus is limited to the highest it can go without losing what makes it the “Voice” since 0 also has no self-identity.
Again, I don't think you realise that your arguments are self-defeating. What you're saying is essentially this:
Yeah, they're not the same at that moment. I've explained that 0 cannot be commuted at any level other than itself. Using its power is because the 0 is the one that's actualzing that so that High 1-A+ can use it.
I'll answer all these points. 0 powers are directly tied to itself, High 1-A+ is manifested to take the power it can within a certain framework because it is also in a framework, its limited in scope to 0 because 0 is just itself, nothing can scale to it nor scale down from it other than it working through aspect and because they're “aspect” they are inherently limited. Not being 0 at that and/or being High 1-A+ is not a footnote to claim that it should have 0 powers just because its acting as an agency from which the power is being channeled which the 0 is the reason or cause for that. The 0 being in question isn’t limiting its power, what it creates is separation from itself and because 0 is only itself, actualizing anything that's not itself is already limited ie High 1-A+.
I assume you haven't read how 0 and High 1-A+ work in correlation to each other. This is answered several times while you were gone.
As I've explained before, this isn't really a matter of whether or not they're the same thing, it's a matter of whether or not they share the same agency. According to you, they do:
As such, you agree with P1), P2) and P3) all the same, which puts a limit on how much power the Voice can exercise, which in turn is putting a limit on how much power the Presence can exercise as his own agency. It is inherently self-defeating.
Again, this is essentially just compromising the argument double-fold, since it just makes it so the Voice is not the Presences agency, as such, not even connected to the Presence in the first place, thus contradicting your previous post. But this is false, since most showings of the Voice, including the guidebook scan I sent above, show the Voice as just the Presences own agency manifesting through some creature in creation.
This is, matter of fact, sort-of unrelated to the two top tiers themselves, but how you guys just gave this rather arbitrary rating to one aspect of the Presences manifestations, and not the others.
It matters that they aren't the same thing given that even you would deduce 0 and High 1-A+ are different tiers. This reflects how the Voice is an aspect of the Presence, which already represents itself as lower. So the agency they share is the Voice works as a direct manifestation of the Presence which also means that the source in which it is being actualized remains separate from what it is as the Voice. I don't get why this is hard to understand.
You claim its self-defeating yet you fail to grasp the notion that a 0 itself is 0 and nothing else can be that when they are separate from it such as the Voice. That's as simple as it gets.
Ono, the Voice is acting through the Presence but separations and divisions are why it's rated as High 1-A as oppose to 0. Your guidebook doesn't discern anything other than what is already know. That's also given that we've also provided scans from the actual story as evidence as well.
Yeah, I already assumed you don't know how 0 and High 1-A+ work. Especially considering one aspect can be higher than another.
Of course, he's being stubborn about this because he wants the Overvoid to be top tier. He’s made that pretty clear in the past and decides to derail this thread based on some weird preconceived notion that an agency of 0 needs to have some sort of prowess of 0 traits despite two tiers representing two different things.
To make sure we are on the same ground, keep in mind what the definition of 'agency' is: agency is the capacity of some subject to act in and of itself.
Genetic fallacy, and no, I don't have any ulterior motives, I do believe this is an issue, nothing more.
Yeah, but the simple truth is that they're different as well. The Presence being 0 isn’t making the Voice 0 as well by virtue of sharing the same agency, which also has several meanings, one being intermediary which the Voice fills which also means itself is not 0.
How about we just end the conversation. You're going off something that's not how we determine things in the Wiki. I suggest you read how the relationship works or make a CRT for all your concerns.
Yeah, sure, since it seems you're the only one with issues concerning the tiering. Then I believe this thread can be closed. Your concerns can be put elsewhere.
Yeah, but an avatar that reflects Tier 0's power and activities would be High 1-A+, but I don't think The Voice is at this point. I agree with NHTkenshin2 on this point.
The closest analogy to what I was talking about is something like this: Imagine a puppeteer controlling a puppet to fight another puppet. Instead of allowing their puppet to engage in the fight, the puppeteer directly intervenes and physically attacks the opposing puppet themselves.
One correction. Scott didn't say anything like The Presence being a manifestation of the Source. He just said they are interchangable entities. Moreover, there're scans supporting the fact that The source is the power the presence wields. In my opinion, The overvoid and the source are the tools The Presence uses to exercise his powers.
This would be more likely and would fit with the idea that the Overvoid/Source is a tool (paper) on which creation was drawn.
Here they are fighting for the source which is somehow sitting in the silver city for some reasons xD (DC Comics never make sense) Edited - this is godwave which is the echo of the source
Where the last scan come from?
DC Comic Encyclopedia Pg. 146
I may not be the best person to answer this question, but the comic book material is a more reliable source. I think as long as it doesn't contradict what's been established in the comics, it should fine.
There is only the puppeteer, and everything else is a puppet. If the puppeteer executes his movements through that one puppet, it means that the puppet can do everything within the puppeteer's playfield. However, assuming it is still a puppet compared to the puppeteer, yes, it cannot be 0. But if it performs everything specifically 'through the puppeteer's hand,' as opposed to others, this places it in a special classification. If other puppets move through a mechanism set up by the puppeteer, this would make them limited. By the way, I didn’t like the example.
This is something Tyler, who has spoken privately with Scott multiple times, confirms. Otherwise, the Presence and the Source of course replace each other, and sometimes who is the "superior identity" changes. But the most likely case is that they are exactly the same thing. The problem is that the One True Creator cannot be both at the same time. The scan of source material you cited is now mostly out of date. At the very least, it wouldn't be an accurate interpretation for the Presence to be the creative force using the Source. So in summary, I want to say that they are both manifestations or two sides of the same thing. It is not quite correct to assume that the One True Creator is The Presence.
vsbattles.fandom.com
This is generally a difference in how the Presences 'lore' concucts itself in different stories, like, the 'mainline' Presence or whatever is generally accepted to adopt a much more Christian theology than, say, the Eastern theology that someone like J.M. DeMatteis adopts: where creation exists only ostensibly, everything is an illusion and we're actually all one with God, and whatnot.
I think it's a bit redundant honestly, since I do believe it should be Tier 0 like the Presence, on the basis that it's just the 'voice' of the Presence in existence, and there isn't really a separation between 'acts by the Presence' and 'acts by the Voice': they're the same will, but one is revealed through some creature.Should "The Voice" have a High Outerverse level+ tier or not? From what I remember, it only had such statistics for attack potency and range, so I also added a + sign for striking strength and durability for the sake of consistency. Was this inaccurate? Should "The Voice" "only" be High Outerverse level?
Also, I have unlocked The Great Darkness, so the errors there can be corrected.
The Great Darkness
The Great Darkness is the primordial darkness that preceded everything, before the creator emanated light into creation. It was so cold and dark for so long that the birth of a burning light was imperceptible, but the flickering light grew until nothing was no longer everything and the darkness...
0 is not tied down to any theological belief per se. This is why Ultima literally clarifies that you can get 0 by being a Monad or the Good which is a lot closer to Christian theology(the latter literally is used by Gnostics teaching to describe God as the father in his perfect unison with his other facets), over something like Hinduism or Buddhism with illusory reality and true reality.
This is plain-out false as well and seem like you're making it out on the spot. There's a medium to all this and that's the description of how God can break into different vessel within Creation as oppose to being eternally blissful in his oneness. This is why some Catholic and Orthodox docturine sees no difference in metaphysical parts of God and say they act as one and the same with just one singular entity with one personality.
That's if they have no difference in their nature as one singular essence. For example, Ultima made a sandbox for Dante’s deception of “God” and he gave all three aspects: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost(Spirit) all 0 because Dante was Catholic believing in some sort of absolute divine simplicity.
No, he's not and you literally answered this yourself.
Yeah so, you seem to (still) believe that I am calling the Voice itself as a composite, finite creature, Tier 0, which is evident in the fact that you immediately resort to the Divine person of the Son instead of acknowledging the unity of agencies at hand here, or comparing the Voice and the Presence to Arianism (?), despite earlier you agreeing that they share the same agency. So the comparison here, obviously, wouldn't make much sense.
plan, sir.
