I disagree, I think we need more staff input for the other things before rejecting them, and the Sphere of the Gods Nabu stuff got basically no input. Also, no one refuted Kent being nearly equal to Jim Corrigan, that is, there's no argument for Jim retaining his "superior to Nabu".
Yes.
Trigon (Post-Crisis)
Minor revisions such as the ones in this thread can be approved with a single staff member if it's an Admin.
This does not matter. No one is obligated to personally address everything you say.
How exactly is this a minor revision? And where is it stated a single admin is enough?
Ok, so let me ask, where did anyone address BWL's Physics Manipulation?
I have finished updating BWL and Trigon. I made a mistake, we aren't changing Doctor Fate's page, we actually need this page unlocked to remove the "possibly higher" phrase from Unbound Spectre.
No. Physics Manip is a strong hax and I also suggested BWL being upgraded to Tier 2, which has some agreements. That's not removing a few qualifiers. Also, the intelligence upgrade is to Supergenius.
Where?
I handled it.
I think that I disagreed with Lex, due to that he has no feats on a Supergenius scale that I recall at the moment.
The change has been applied and those pages can all be locked again.
vsbattles.fandom.com
Seems goodShould we downgrade the following page to "At least Extraordinary Genius"?
Lex Luthor (Post-Crisis)
Lex Luthor, since his first appearance, has been the most consistent adversary of Superman. His origins have varied somewhat, from the son of an abusive household to the childhood friend of a young Clark Kent, but upon reaching the city of Metropolis, he used his genius intellect and scientific...
I think so, but we were discussing a possibility rating.
They're leaving out the context. This was done using Tarot Cards made of Nth Metal. It isn't an ability that BWL has.
I'm iffy because Nth Metal is pretty crazy no matter who is wielding it, it can even teleport you directly to Nil. But if you think it's worth adding I can add it.
The cards are already used to give BWL "Reality Warping" actually, I don't see why the cards should be used for that but not this.
I think that it seems uncontroversial as well.
Please write your draft here first.
Firstly, I will note that BWL has outsmarted Lex before, for example, when he got captured by Lex, that was actually all a part of his plan so that he can replace Lex as Perpetua's right-hand man. Another incident of BWL outsmarting Lex is this. For this incident, it was even explicitly stated things didn't go according to Luthor's plans.
Thank you but just wanted to confirm if you read this-
If you haven't, I request you to read it. If you have, then@Antvasima; I will try to summarize everything for you and others.
A) So in the beginning, Deagon gave some scans against my argument for Nabu~Unbound Spectre. This is his first scan. He's claiming because Kent said the power of Nabu was nothing to the Spectre's, Spectre is superior. First issue with this is that Kent wasn't referring to Nabu alone, he was referring to Nabu hosted by him. We know this because:
1: Kent was fighting Spectre, and he said this statement based on how he fought against Spectre. So it wouldn't make sense for him to refer to a hostless Nabu, as he has no knowledge over how Nabu would do. Kent says clearly-
Kent is clearly saying Nabu's power is nothing for the Spectre, in the fight, because he can't fight properly. It wouldn't make sense for him to confirm Nabu alone cannot do anything, as Nabu was not even fighting. He could have only confirmed his fears based on how he is able to fight. So for this, Kent was referring to Nabu hosted by him.
2: Spectre says this clearly-
Spectre explicitly and clearly says that Fate's weakness here was that he was hosted by a human and is not as powerful as True Nabu. So again, the scan was a reference to Fate(Kent) and not Nabu.
3: Spectre himself said Kent is nearly as powerful as him
So Spectre cannot be vastly above Fate, if Spectre was infinitely superior, he wouldn't have called Kent relative.
So in conclusion, Deagon's statement only applies to Fate, not Nabu.
B) Onwards to my next point, Deagon showed this scan, where Fate called Spectre the most powerful being in creation. The first issue is that, we have no evidence this "creation" refers to the Map. Creation could refer to the Orrery as well, and actually, I can't remember a single instance of "creation" being used to refer to the Map before the Metal era. We have evidence for creation referring to the Orrery though, plenty of times. The first example is the Multiversity Map, which also directly places the Lords of Order above Creation. If you cannot see it, WonderWorld was stated to orbit creation in the Map(WW orbits the Orrery) and Order was explicitly placed above it-
The second example of Creation=Orrery comes from Final Crisis-
That should be enough for now.
The second issue is that, I never argued Nabu is more powerful than Spectre, I only argued Nabu is relative to Spectre. So Spectre can be more powerful than him and my point stands.
So conclusion? Fate wasn't necessarily referring to Nabu, and even if he was, that wouldn't change my point. I will also add that by wiki rules, feats>statements. So the above statement, even if it supported Deagon, wouldn't go against me, as that's a statement which is contradicted by a feat supporting me.
C) Next up, he argued that because Nabu said "Why is it taking you so long to kill me, Spectre? You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days, you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself -- where did all that magic you captured actually go?", that Spectre can crush Nabu in an instant. The issue with this, is that the magic Nabu is referring to is an amp onto Spectre's base power. Before Nabu fought him, Spectre had been killing all the Lords of Order and Chaos. In the end, before his fight with Nabu, Spectre managed to kill everyone except Nabu, the most powerful Lord of the ninth age of magic
Onto Deagon's scan, Nabu was actually saying this magic, that he got from the Lords was absorbed by Eclipso. Nabu says clearly-
Spectre then says-
Nabu was very explicitly talking about the amp in magic Spectre received. He talks about how much raw magic Spectre devoured over the past few days, which can only refer to the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre then says he destroyed that magic. So did he destroy his base form?
The conclusion is very simple. Nabu's statements have no relations to how they can fight in base. Nabu was only referring to how Spectre would crush him when Spectre had his own powers amped by the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre had his usual powers in his fight and yet Nabu was able to match him.
D) Deagon's next argument is that Spectre killed him in the fight, and so that he's superior. The issue with this is that Nabu purposefully died. He came there to let Spectre kill him so that the ninth age of magic ends and wouldn't linger on. This is so that the a fresh tenth age of magic begins, and because The Presence would give Spectre a new host, meaning he wouldn't continue rampaging across existence. And even during this incident, when Nabu wanted to die, Spectre didn't easily kill him, he had to grasp everywhere at once to get just the amount of magic needed to kill Nabu.
The alternative to Nabu dying was Nabu managing to convince Spectre to stop his rampage and make him see reason, after which they would both work together restore the ninth age. This actually only supports my point, as this shows Nabu was possibly holding back but definitely did not want to win or genuinely fight. If Nabu managed to beat Spectre, the outcome would overall be against the world, since a broken ninth age would continue to prevail. So Nabu wanted to either reason with Spectre or die. Neither options led him to victory. The reasoning part obviously failed though, so Nabu kept on angering Spectre, until he lost all reason and control-
Nabu throughout the fight was trying to trigger Spectre as much as possible so Spectre kills him, and even when Spectre pushed himself beyond to his utmost limits, Nabu didn't instantly die, rather, he continued talking, a LOT, and even managed to give away his helment. So Nabu is consistently relative to Spectre, and him dying doesn't prove anything.
E) He said Unbound Spectre has "possibly higher" because the Presence can give Spectre more power. However, where is it stated that's the reason Spectre has it? I would like to see evidence.
Alright, so that's all for the Nabu section. Now let's get to BWL!
F) Deagon is arguing Mar Novu was weakened when BWL fought him. For this, I don't feel like explaining again so I will just link to this-
His response to this has problems like usual. For example, he responded to my second paragraph with-
However, my first paragraph was all about establishing why the comic does indicate this. Each of my paragraphs were a build-up to the next, they don't work if you ignore the previous paragraph. So his counter here makes no sense. If he's trying to suggest Mar Novu was weakened beyond the Monitors, he will need to explain what other than the Monitors fragmenting from him weakened him. If he cannot explain, assuming something other than the Monitors weakened Mar would be a total assumption. On the other hand, if he's saying the Monitors fragmenting from Mar weakened him more than the totality of their power, by an uncountably infinite amount, he will have to explain and prove that. It's an extraordinary claim. Using my previous analogy, if 10000 loses a 100 and a 1000, it's not going to reduce to 8000, it's going to reduce to 8900. The 900 doesn't go missing. If this is indeed Deagon's claim, I would like to know what happened to Mar's "900"(an uncountable infinity in his case, to be more precise)?
If he's claiming neither of these, I would like him to explain what exactly he's claiming. I will then write a suitable counter or concede.
I think that's the only counter for BWL he presented, if there's any counter I missed for BWL or Nabu other than the ones above, let me know and I will address it.
Now as for my last words-
1: Corrigan cannot keep his "superior to Nabu" under any circumstance. He was never shown to be on Nabu's level and we have actually seen Kent being relative to him and Nabu being relative to Unbound Spectre.
2: Deagon wrote this counter-
As I explained before, the extra magic he had gathered was an amp to his base power. So that wouldn't count, we don't give characters a higher rating just because they can gather extra power from others. We would just give them Absorption hax or something. If it's a permanent amp, we would give them a separate key or remove their unamped form from the page entirely if it only lasted for a few small time(like in the case of The Darkest Knight, we removed his "Pre-Crisis Energy" key).
That's all!
Ok, I now agree with the Nabu justification change, but not sure about the BWL-Monitor partThank you but just wanted to confirm if you read this-
If you haven't, I request you to read it. If you have, then
Well, all of that makes sense from a writer perspective, but from an in-story perspective both Batman and Lex Luthor just do not have any feats that remotely approach a tier 2 or higher freely reality-warping scale that is required for Supergenius ratings. I could see tbem get "At least Extraordinary Genius (list of their own feats), potentially Supergenius (by scaling to TBWL)".
Yeah, that's good with me
That seems fine, since unbound Spectre is the one who has fought Nabu, first in ancient Egypt and then during the Spectre's war against magic, as far as I recall.
Creating a miniature universe and its laws of physics through systematic design is a supergenius feat if it is supported by other feats of that scale, but I do not think that simply caging one is, given its comparatively very limited size.
Would you be willing to update both of their VSB wiki pages accordingly if I unlock them?
He didn't actually create it, the universe was brought from the World Forge. It doesn't need to be added if it's controversial, I just asked because the feat is used for the Monitors' Supergenius rating(along with a few others)- https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/T...anotechnology powered by caged baby universes
