Trigon downgrade, and Nabu and The Batman Who Laughs upgrade

[Firestorm808]

Currently away from home. Will refamiliarize myself with the points later tonight.

 

[Transcending]

Currently away from home. Will refamiliarize myself with the points later tonight.

Thank you! This is the most important post here IMO-

@Antvasima; I will try to summarize everything for you and others.

A) So in the beginning, Deagon gave some scans against my argument for Nabu~Unbound Spectre. This is his first scan. He's claiming because Kent said the power of Nabu was nothing to the Spectre's, Spectre is superior. First issue with this is that Kent wasn't referring to Nabu alone, he was referring to Nabu hosted by him. We know this because:

1: Kent was fighting Spectre, and he said this statement based on how he fought against Spectre. So it wouldn't make sense for him to refer to a hostless Nabu, as he has no knowledge over how Nabu would do. Kent says clearly-

Kent is clearly saying Nabu's power is nothing for the Spectre, in the fight, because he can't fight properly. It wouldn't make sense for him to confirm Nabu alone cannot do anything, as Nabu was not even fighting. He could have only confirmed his fears based on how he is able to fight. So for this, Kent was referring to Nabu hosted by him.

2: Spectre says this clearly-

Spectre explicitly and clearly says that Fate's weakness here was that he was hosted by a human and is not as powerful as True Nabu. So again, the scan was a reference to Fate(Kent) and not Nabu.

3: Spectre himself said Kent is nearly as powerful as him

So Spectre cannot be vastly above Fate, if Spectre was infinitely superior, he wouldn't have called Kent relative.

So in conclusion, Deagon's statement only applies to Fate, not Nabu.

B) Onwards to my next point, Deagon showed this scan, where Fate called Spectre the most powerful being in creation. The first issue is that, we have no evidence this "creation" refers to the Map. Creation could refer to the Orrery as well, and actually, I can't remember a single instance of "creation" being used to refer to the Map before the Metal era. We have evidence for creation referring to the Orrery though, plenty of times. The first example is the Multiversity Map, which also directly places the Lords of Order above Creation. If you cannot see it, WonderWorld was stated to orbit creation in the Map(WW orbits the Orrery) and Order was explicitly placed above it-

The second example of Creation=Orrery comes from Final Crisis-

That should be enough for now.

The second issue is that, I never argued Nabu is more powerful than Spectre, I only argued Nabu is relative to Spectre. So Spectre can be more powerful than him and my point stands.

So conclusion? Fate wasn't necessarily referring to Nabu, and even if he was, that wouldn't change my point. I will also add that by wiki rules, feats>statements. So the above statement, even if it supported Deagon, wouldn't go against me, as that's a statement which is contradicted by a feat supporting me.

C) Next up, he argued that because Nabu said "Why is it taking you so long to kill me, Spectre? You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days, you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself -- where did all that magic you captured actually go?", that Spectre can crush Nabu in an instant. The issue with this, is that the magic Nabu is referring to is an amp onto Spectre's base power. Before Nabu fought him, Spectre had been killing all the Lords of Order and Chaos. In the end, before his fight with Nabu, Spectre managed to kill everyone except Nabu, the most powerful Lord of the ninth age of magic

Onto Deagon's scan, Nabu was actually saying this magic, that he got from the Lords was absorbed by Eclipso. Nabu says clearly-

Spectre then says-

Nabu was very explicitly talking about the amp in magic Spectre received. He talks about how much raw magic Spectre devoured over the past few days, which can only refer to the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre then says he destroyed that magic. So did he destroy his base form?

The conclusion is very simple. Nabu's statements have no relations to how they can fight in base. Nabu was only referring to how Spectre would crush him when Spectre had his own powers amped by the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre had his usual powers in his fight and yet Nabu was able to match him.

D) Deagon's next argument is that Spectre killed him in the fight, and so that he's superior. The issue with this is that Nabu purposefully died. He came there to let Spectre kill him so that the ninth age of magic ends and wouldn't linger on. This is so that the a fresh tenth age of magic begins, and because The Presence would give Spectre a new host, meaning he wouldn't continue rampaging across existence. And even during this incident, when Nabu wanted to die, Spectre didn't easily kill him, he had to grasp everywhere at once to get just the amount of magic needed to kill Nabu.

The alternative to Nabu dying was Nabu managing to convince Spectre to stop his rampage and make him see reason, after which they would both work together restore the ninth age. This actually only supports my point, as this shows Nabu was possibly holding back but definitely did not want to win or genuinely fight. If Nabu managed to beat Spectre, the outcome would overall be against the world, since a broken ninth age would continue to prevail. So Nabu wanted to either reason with Spectre or die. Neither options led him to victory. The reasoning part obviously failed though, so Nabu kept on angering Spectre, until he lost all reason and control-

Nabu throughout the fight was trying to trigger Spectre as much as possible so Spectre kills him, and even when Spectre pushed himself beyond to his utmost limits, Nabu didn't instantly die, rather, he continued talking, a LOT, and even managed to give away his helment. So Nabu is consistently relative to Spectre, and him dying doesn't prove anything.

E) He said Unbound Spectre has "possibly higher" because the Presence can give Spectre more power. However, where is it stated that's the reason Spectre has it? I would like to see evidence.

Alright, so that's all for the Nabu section. Now let's get to BWL!

F) Deagon is arguing Mar Novu was weakened when BWL fought him. For this, I don't feel like explaining again so I will just link to this-

His response to this has problems like usual. For example, he responded to my second paragraph with-

However, my first paragraph was all about establishing why the comic does indicate this. Each of my paragraphs were a build-up to the next, they don't work if you ignore the previous paragraph. So his counter here makes no sense. If he's trying to suggest Mar Novu was weakened beyond the Monitors, he will need to explain what other than the Monitors fragmenting from him weakened him. If he cannot explain, assuming something other than the Monitors weakened Mar would be a total assumption. On the other hand, if he's saying the Monitors fragmenting from Mar weakened him more than the totality of their power, by an uncountably infinite amount, he will have to explain and prove that. It's an extraordinary claim. Using my previous analogy, if 10000 loses a 100 and a 1000, it's not going to reduce to 8000, it's going to reduce to 8900. The 900 doesn't go missing. If this is indeed Deagon's claim, I would like to know what happened to Mar's "900"(an uncountable infinity in his case, to be more precise)?

If he's claiming neither of these, I would like him to explain what exactly he's claiming. I will then write a suitable counter or concede.

I think that's the only counter for BWL he presented, if there's any counter I missed for BWL or Nabu other than the ones above, let me know and I will address it.

Now as for my last words-

1: Corrigan cannot keep his "superior to Nabu" under any circumstance. He was never shown to be on Nabu's level and we have actually seen Kent being relative to him and Nabu being relative to Unbound Spectre.

2: Deagon wrote this counter-

As I explained before, the extra magic he had gathered was an amp to his base power. So that wouldn't count, we don't give characters a higher rating just because they can gather extra power from others. We would just give them Absorption hax or something. If it's a permanent amp, we would give them a separate key or remove their unamped form from the page entirely if it only lasted for a few small time(like in the case of The Darkest Knight, we removed his "Pre-Crisis Energy" key).

That's all!

 

[Antvasima]

I am obviously fine with if physics manipulation is placed in the equipment tabber in TBWL's powers and abilities section.

 

[Deagonx]

BWL's Tier 2 and Nabu's Tier 1 stuff falls under controversial revisions. As such they need the disagreement of at least 3 staff to reject.

That isn't the rule. It requires the agreement of three staff to approve, not to reject.

Deagon himself admitted Kent is relative to Jim-

No I didn't, at all, whatsoever. The sentence you quoted says "This scan supports Spectre > Fate."

Do not lie about my stance in order to mislead staff members. Every scan that has been posted in this thread supports Spectre's superiority over Nabu, including multiple statements that refer directly to Nabu and not Doctor Fate. I do not think your claim that Kent doesn't know Nabu's power level or that he wasn't actually referring to Nabu holds water at all and I've made that very clear.

In fact, Deagon himself admitted Spectre isn't infinitely superior, so they would have the same tier.

They already have the same tier, I have told you this repeatedly.

 

[Transcending]

That isn't the rule. It requires the agreement of three staff to approve, not to reject.

Why would it only apply for approval? And I confirmed with KLOL on it applying to rejections too anyway.

No I didn't, at all, whatsoever. The sentence you quoted says "This scan supports Spectre > Fate."

Do not lie about my stance in order to mislead staff members.

Before that, you said "nearly", by which you admit Kent is nearly as powerful as Spectre. So no, I didn't mislead.

Every scan that has been posted in this thread supports Spectre's superiority over Nabu, including multiple statements that refer directly to Nabu and not Doctor Fate. I do not think your claim that Kent doesn't know Nabu's power level or that he wasn't actually referring to Nabu holds water at all and I've made that very clear.

This is a massive oversimplification of an argument, if not a straw man entirely, but whether you think my arguments hold water or not is largely irrelevant, unless you can refute them. Saying they don't hold any water does not debunk it, and falls under Argument from Pigheadedness(again, the fallacy, I am not insulting you),

They already have the same tier, I have told you this repeatedly.

Not really, Spectre had a "possibly higher", I wanted that to be added to Nabu or removed from Spectre. Now they are in the same tier and I don't have any problems.

 

[Deagonx]

Ant, as per usual, these two are determined to drag this out as long as is humanly possible whilst being extremely rude to me in the process (such as calling me pigheaded, overtly lying about things I've said) and I am not interested in wasting my time perpetually on them since there are so many other pressing matters to which I could be spending my time and attention. It is known at this point that I find their arguments extremely poor and primarily guided by their upgrade-seeking habits for characters they like (note the Doctor Fate profile picture) and I would prefer not to spend any more time on this. If Firestorm finds it persuasive, I suppose you can go with his judgment, but I am not interested in being drawn into another perpetual argument with them given their history of being abusive towards me and relying on poor reasoning and stonewalling.

 

[Vasco]

Deagonx makes sense above.

 

[Transcending]

Ant, as per usual, these two are determined to drag this out as long as is humanly possible whilst being extremely rude to me in the process (such as calling me pigheaded, overtly lying about things I've said)

We weren't rude to you, we didn't lie about what you said(while you did) and we didn't call you pigheaded, we said you are committing a fallacy. I already proved the existence of that fallacy, the one who is being rude is you as you are deliberately misinterpreting our intensions to make us look bad.

It is known at this point that I find their arguments extremely poor and primarily guided by their upgrade-seeking habits for characters they like (note the Doctor Fate profile picture)

If we like a character and want them to be upgraded, we look for actual reasons for that. If we don't find any, we don't.

abusive towards me

Abusive? Really? What purpose exactly did this post of yours serve other than attacking us?

 

[Deagonx]

And as per usual, descriptions of their problematic behavior are being construed as attacks. Using the name of a fallacy as a thin veil to blatantly call someone "pigheaded" because you do not like their argument is, in fact, abusive, especially since you were already told that it was not appropriate and the fallacy in question has multiple other names that are not insulting.

And in general, your near-constant referrals to the names of fallacy in the middle of a discussion is inflammatory and is in bad faith.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

And as per usual, descriptions of their problematic behavior are being construed as attacks.

Hitchen's Razor.

 

[Deagonx]

And in general, your near-constant referrals to the names of fallacy in the middle of a discussion is inflammatory and is in bad faith.

Hitchen's Razor.

Exhibit A.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

And as per usual, descriptions of their problematic behavior are being construed as attacks. Using the name of a fallacy as a thin veil to blatantly call someone "pigheaded" because you do not like their argument is, in fact, abusive, especially since you were already told that it was not appropriate and the fallacy in question has multiple other names that are not insulting.

Transcending addressed the pigheaded part. You're just repeating yourself. Ad Nauseam.

 

[Transcending]

Exhibit A.

Hitchen's Razor is a philosophical razor, not a fallacy

 

[Antvasima]

It seems best if we end this discussion rather than that we very excessively continue to drag it out, yes. It doesn't concern sufficiently important issues for that kind of time spent on it.

 

[Transcending]

It seems best if we end this discussion rather than that we very excessively continue to drag it out, yes. It doesn't concern sufficiently important issues for that kind of time spent on it.

It has literally just reached three pages, there's no reason to lock it right now since Firestorm said he would give his input. The best thing to do right now is wait for that, ik we all have more pressing issues to attend to than this thread and fictional debating as a whole, how about we focus on them during this waiting period?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. Let's wait for Firestorm808.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

This is my current summary and assessment based on the OP. If there is any important information presented later in the thread let me know.

• Trigon
  • likely Multiverse level+ (The Monitor ranked his full power on par with that of Jim Corrigan)
    • "Above six hundred we are dealing with power users in the supernatural category... above eight hundred we're dealing with either the demon Trigon or the Spectre"
  • If there are no other good scans to scale Trigon to The Spectre's level, I am fine with removing this section.
• Doctor Fate (Classic)
  • The Spectre| Jim Corrigan (Pre-Flashpoint)
    • Multiverse level+ (Superior to Nabu. Was able to battle Zero Hour Parallax, although he was temporarily defeated), Multiverse level+ with the power of Earth's sorcerers (Overcame the Anti-Monitor at the dawn of time and caused the multiverse to be rewritten)
  • Day of Vengeance: Infinite Crisis Special
    • Fate matched Unbound Spectre
  • Can you clarify that the Nabu key of Doctor Fate is proposed to be Multiverse level+, possibly higher? Where does the higher come from?
  • I am not sure what scan or example is used to say Jim Corrigan is superior, so I have no issue with the removal if there is no relevant scan.
• The Batman Who Laughs
  • Dark Nights: Metal #6
    • beat the Monitor and constructed a machine to destroy the Multiverse using him, the astral brain, and himself
  • Justice League #27
    • He also tortured the Monitor
  • Dark Nights: The Batman Who Laughs #1
    • there was nothing the Monitor could do to beat him
  • Made a plan to betray, outsmart, and beat Perpetua as BWL (something he succeeded on)
  • Manipulated her into replacing Lex Luthor with him.
  • Proposed Supergenius intelligence and an upgrade in his AP with preparations.
    • Green Arrow #32
      • Physics Manipulation as his cards could rewrite and defy the laws of Physics.
  • He currently has Supergeius as of writing this. I'm uninformed about the context of the Monitor's capture, containment, and torture. Was there a machine he prepared ahead of time for this? Was the monitor still weak in his reformation? Did he make the cards or did they come from a different supernatural source?

 

[Transcending]

If there are no other good scans to scale Trigon to The Spectre's level, I am fine with removing this section.

It was already removed actually.

Can you clarify that the Nabu key of Doctor Fate is proposed to be Multiverse level+, possibly higher? Where does the higher come from?

Spectre had "possibly higher" before, but this thread downgraded that instead of upgrading Nabu. Hence this change is also done.

He currently has Supergeius as of writing this.

Yeah, he got upgraded in this thread.

I'm uninformed about the context of the Monitor's capture, containment, and torture. Was there a machine he prepared ahead of time for this?

Yep.

Was the monitor still weak in his reformation?

The Monitor was weak, but he still retained his Tier 2. Check this-

F) Deagon is arguing Mar Novu was weakened when BWL fought him. For this, I don't feel like explaining again so I will just link to this-
His response to this has problems like usual. For example, he responded to my second paragraph with-
However, my first paragraph was all about establishing why the comic does indicate this. Each of my paragraphs were a build-up to the next, they don't work if you ignore the previous paragraph. So his counter here makes no sense. If he's trying to suggest Mar Novu was weakened beyond the Monitors, he will need to explain what other than the Monitors fragmenting from him weakened him. If he cannot explain, assuming something other than the Monitors weakened Mar would be a total assumption. On the other hand, if he's saying the Monitors fragmenting from Mar weakened him more than the totality of their power, by an uncountably infinite amount, he will have to explain and prove that. It's an extraordinary claim. Using my previous analogy, if 10000 loses a 100 and a 1000, it's not going to reduce to 8000, it's going to reduce to 8900. The 900 doesn't go missing. If this is indeed Deagon's claim, I would like to know what happened to Mar's "900"(an uncountable infinity in his case, to be more precise)?

If he's claiming neither of these, I would like him to explain what exactly he's claiming. I will then write a suitable counter or concede.

I think that's the only counter for BWL he presented, if there's any counter I missed for BWL or Nabu other than the ones above, let me know and I will address it.

Now as for my last words-

1: Corrigan cannot keep his "superior to Nabu" under any circumstance. He was never shown to be on Nabu's level and we have actually seen Kent being relative to him and Nabu being relative to Unbound Spectre.

Did he make the cards or did they come from a different supernatural source?

It wasn't explicitly stated where the cards came from, at least as far as I can remember, but the cards were frequently referred to as his cards.

 

[Transcending]

3: Discuss if BWL's prep tier can be upgraded to Tier 2
4: Discuss if the destroying the Sphere of the Gods feat makes Nabu Low 1-C

Basically, these two are all that's left to evaluate. The third point's evidence is given in the OP, and as for the fourth point, here-

Also, what do you think about Nabu being able to damage the Sphere of the Gods?

Nabu and the Lords of Order were stated to have been able to destroy the Sphere of the Gods(and they destroyed Myrra), which is a Low 1-C realm.

 

[Transcending]

I am not sure what scan or example is used to say Jim Corrigan is superior, so I have no issue with the removal if there is no relevant scan.

There's none, and there's evidence against it as Kent managed to fight Spectre for a little while(though was weaker) and Spectre himself said Kent was nearly as powerful as him. So Jim should be downgraded to Kent. More info here-

@Antvasima; I will try to summarize everything for you and others.

A) So in the beginning, Deagon gave some scans against my argument for Nabu~Unbound Spectre. This is his first scan. He's claiming because Kent said the power of Nabu was nothing to the Spectre's, Spectre is superior. First issue with this is that Kent wasn't referring to Nabu alone, he was referring to Nabu hosted by him. We know this because:

1: Kent was fighting Spectre, and he said this statement based on how he fought against Spectre. So it wouldn't make sense for him to refer to a hostless Nabu, as he has no knowledge over how Nabu would do. Kent says clearly-

Kent is clearly saying Nabu's power is nothing for the Spectre, in the fight, because he can't fight properly. It wouldn't make sense for him to confirm Nabu alone cannot do anything, as Nabu was not even fighting. He could have only confirmed his fears based on how he is able to fight. So for this, Kent was referring to Nabu hosted by him.

2: Spectre says this clearly-

Spectre explicitly and clearly says that Fate's weakness here was that he was hosted by a human and is not as powerful as True Nabu. So again, the scan was a reference to Fate(Kent) and not Nabu.

3: Spectre himself said Kent is nearly as powerful as him

So Spectre cannot be vastly above Fate, if Spectre was infinitely superior, he wouldn't have called Kent relative.

So in conclusion, Deagon's statement only applies to Fate, not Nabu.

B) Onwards to my next point, Deagon showed this scan, where Fate called Spectre the most powerful being in creation. The first issue is that, we have no evidence this "creation" refers to the Map. Creation could refer to the Orrery as well, and actually, I can't remember a single instance of "creation" being used to refer to the Map before the Metal era. We have evidence for creation referring to the Orrery though, plenty of times. The first example is the Multiversity Map, which also directly places the Lords of Order above Creation. If you cannot see it, WonderWorld was stated to orbit creation in the Map(WW orbits the Orrery) and Order was explicitly placed above it-

The second example of Creation=Orrery comes from Final Crisis-

That should be enough for now.

The second issue is that, I never argued Nabu is more powerful than Spectre, I only argued Nabu is relative to Spectre. So Spectre can be more powerful than him and my point stands.

So conclusion? Fate wasn't necessarily referring to Nabu, and even if he was, that wouldn't change my point. I will also add that by wiki rules, feats>statements. So the above statement, even if it supported Deagon, wouldn't go against me, as that's a statement which is contradicted by a feat supporting me.

C) Next up, he argued that because Nabu said "Why is it taking you so long to kill me, Spectre? You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days, you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself -- where did all that magic you captured actually go?", that Spectre can crush Nabu in an instant. The issue with this, is that the magic Nabu is referring to is an amp onto Spectre's base power. Before Nabu fought him, Spectre had been killing all the Lords of Order and Chaos. In the end, before his fight with Nabu, Spectre managed to kill everyone except Nabu, the most powerful Lord of the ninth age of magic

Onto Deagon's scan, Nabu was actually saying this magic, that he got from the Lords was absorbed by Eclipso. Nabu says clearly-

Spectre then says-

Nabu was very explicitly talking about the amp in magic Spectre received. He talks about how much raw magic Spectre devoured over the past few days, which can only refer to the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre then says he destroyed that magic. So did he destroy his base form?

The conclusion is very simple. Nabu's statements have no relations to how they can fight in base. Nabu was only referring to how Spectre would crush him when Spectre had his own powers amped by the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre had his usual powers in his fight and yet Nabu was able to match him.

D) Deagon's next argument is that Spectre killed him in the fight, and so that he's superior. The issue with this is that Nabu purposefully died. He came there to let Spectre kill him so that the ninth age of magic ends and wouldn't linger on. This is so that the a fresh tenth age of magic begins, and because The Presence would give Spectre a new host, meaning he wouldn't continue rampaging across existence. And even during this incident, when Nabu wanted to die, Spectre didn't easily kill him, he had to grasp everywhere at once to get just the amount of magic needed to kill Nabu.

The alternative to Nabu dying was Nabu managing to convince Spectre to stop his rampage and make him see reason, after which they would both work together restore the ninth age. This actually only supports my point, as this shows Nabu was possibly holding back but definitely did not want to win or genuinely fight. If Nabu managed to beat Spectre, the outcome would overall be against the world, since a broken ninth age would continue to prevail. So Nabu wanted to either reason with Spectre or die. Neither options led him to victory. The reasoning part obviously failed though, so Nabu kept on angering Spectre, until he lost all reason and control-

Nabu throughout the fight was trying to trigger Spectre as much as possible so Spectre kills him, and even when Spectre pushed himself beyond to his utmost limits, Nabu didn't instantly die, rather, he continued talking, a LOT, and even managed to give away his helment. So Nabu is consistently relative to Spectre, and him dying doesn't prove anything.

E) He said Unbound Spectre has "possibly higher" because the Presence can give Spectre more power. However, where is it stated that's the reason Spectre has it? I would like to see evidence.

Alright, so that's all for the Nabu section. Now let's get to BWL!

F) Deagon is arguing Mar Novu was weakened when BWL fought him. For this, I don't feel like explaining again so I will just link to this-

His response to this has problems like usual. For example, he responded to my second paragraph with-

However, my first paragraph was all about establishing why the comic does indicate this. Each of my paragraphs were a build-up to the next, they don't work if you ignore the previous paragraph. So his counter here makes no sense. If he's trying to suggest Mar Novu was weakened beyond the Monitors, he will need to explain what other than the Monitors fragmenting from him weakened him. If he cannot explain, assuming something other than the Monitors weakened Mar would be a total assumption. On the other hand, if he's saying the Monitors fragmenting from Mar weakened him more than the totality of their power, by an uncountably infinite amount, he will have to explain and prove that. It's an extraordinary claim. Using my previous analogy, if 10000 loses a 100 and a 1000, it's not going to reduce to 8000, it's going to reduce to 8900. The 900 doesn't go missing. If this is indeed Deagon's claim, I would like to know what happened to Mar's "900"(an uncountable infinity in his case, to be more precise)?

If he's claiming neither of these, I would like him to explain what exactly he's claiming. I will then write a suitable counter or concede.

I think that's the only counter for BWL he presented, if there's any counter I missed for BWL or Nabu other than the ones above, let me know and I will address it.

Now as for my last words-

1: Corrigan cannot keep his "superior to Nabu" under any circumstance. He was never shown to be on Nabu's level and we have actually seen Kent being relative to him and Nabu being relative to Unbound Spectre.

2: Deagon wrote this counter-

As I explained before, the extra magic he had gathered was an amp to his base power. So that wouldn't count, we don't give characters a higher rating just because they can gather extra power from others. We would just give them Absorption hax or something. If it's a permanent amp, we would give them a separate key or remove their unamped form from the page entirely if it only lasted for a few small time(like in the case of The Darkest Knight, we removed his "Pre-Crisis Energy" key).

That's all!

 

[Deagonx]

Was the monitor still weak in his reformation?

Yes. OP's claim that he was "still tier 2" is based on extremely shoddy reasoning. He says that since the Monitors were only 4-B, the fact that he splintered into them could only have reduced his power by increments of 4-B, which couldn't take away from his Tier 2 rating, so he was "weakened" but "infinitesimally" which is nonsensical.

 

[Transcending]

@Firestorm808; While that's a short summary of my argument, I still do ask to read the parts I quoted to get a complete understanding of my point.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Eseseso]

Why should we scale Lex to Batman's intelligence when BWL flat out outsmarted him?

 

[Transcending]

Why should we scale Lex to Batman's intelligence when BWL flat out outsmarted him?

It was stated in the Hell Arisen #3 incident where BWL outsmarted Lex that Lex might have been able to do something if he didn't have so much ego. The incident of BWL outsmarting Perpetua is fair but I tend to think of it as BWL being a better strategist and technology wise Lex should scale to Batman(was stated to be the smartest man alive multiple times and was stated to directly be above Batman twice) who in turn scales to BWL. Lex was also vital against The Darkest Knight as it was his plan that saved the JL.

 

[Deagonx]

The "Supergenius" and "Extraordinary Genius" ratings are largely about knowledge of science and technology, not the kind of political maneuvering that BWL engaged in to supplant Lex as Perpetua's right-hand-man, and we should not scale them that way. Light Yagami for instance is only rated as Genius, even though the manipulation he engaged in was arguably a lot more complex than what BWL did to ingratiate himself to Perpetua. Further, BWL -> Batman -> Lex is also dubious. I do not agree with scaling them just because BWL is Batman from another universe.

 

[Transcending]

The "Supergenius" and "Extraordinary Genius" ratings are largely about knowledge of science and technology, not the kind of political maneuvering that BWL engaged in to supplant Lex as Perpetua's right-hand-man, and we should not scale them that way. Light Yagami for instance is only rated as Genius, even though the manipulation he engaged in was arguably a lot more complex than what BWL did to ingratiate himself to Perpetua

The importance is that BWL managed to manipulate a Tier 1 being while Light manipulated humans. And the Tier 1 being BWL manipulated is a Supergenius in her own right, while Light hasn't manipulated any Supergeniuses.

Further, BWL -> Batman -> Lex is also dubious. I do not agree with scaling them just because BWL is Batman from another universe.

That's another Argument from Pigheadness. I did not say Batman scales to BWL just because BWL is an alternate version, I compiled lots of proof for that claim that shows that he's not only an alternate version but also no more than an equal to main Batman.

 

[Deagonx]

The importance is that BWL managed to manipulate a Tier 1 being while Light manipulated humans

This is moot. Her being tier 1 has nothing to do with her ability to be manipulated. You can absolutely write a character who can destroy multiverses but is still just as vulnerable to subterfuge and manipulation as anyone else.

And the Tier 1 being BWL manipulated is a Supergenius in her own right, while Light hasn't manipulated any Supergeniuses.

You're conflating different aspects of intelligence. Making a tier 1 piece of technology doesn't mean you can't get manipulated. Emotional intelligence is an entirely different concept.

That's another Argument from Pigheadness.

I'm reporting you for using this phrase as a thinly veiled insult for the third time. This doesn't even remotely describe the argument that I just made, and you are clearly using this phrase as an excuse to be rude to others.

 

[Transcending]

This is moot. Her being tier 1 has nothing to do with her ability to be manipulated. You can absolutely write a character who can destroy multiverses but is still just as vulnerable to subterfuge and manipulation as anyone else.

You're conflating different aspects of intelligence. Making a tier 1 piece of technology doesn't mean you can't get manipulated. Emotional intelligence is an entirely different concept.

You can write anything. You can write someone who can create massive technologies capable of destroying 1-A beings while simultaneously not knowing how a computer functions or how to make it. You can write about someone able to create a rifle capable of one-shotting boundless beings while simultaneously not being able to make a pistol. You can write about humans destroying universes and so on.

But we have some standards. When a being is so intelligent as to be Supergenius, we expect them to have some knowledge about manipulations and to avoid them. Considering Perpetua doesn't have any anti-feats, we have no reason to assume her emotional intelligence is lacking. Also, Perpetua isn't Tier 1 purely because of being able to create technology, it's also due to her knowledge about the Multiverse.

I'm reporting you for using this phrase as a thinly veiled insult for the third time. This doesn't even remotely describe the argument that I just made, and you are clearly using this phrase as an excuse to be rude to others.

It absolutely does describe your argument, you only said my claim is dubious and that you don't agree with it, along with misinterpreting my argument into scaling Batman to BWL just because BWL is an alternate version of him. You ignored pretty much all my evidence.

 

[Transcending]

Also, even if the manipulation is not a valid feat, that does not change anything. Lex and Batman would still scale to BWL, the manipulation feat was something, if anything, that was against Lex scaling to BWL.

Also are you gonna seriously report over this?

I'm reporting you for using this phrase as a thinly veiled insult for the third time.

 

[Deagonx]

we expect them to have some knowledge about manipulations and to avoid them.

No. Emotional intelligence is an entirely different concept than the expertise needed to create technology and there's no reason to assume that. You need evidence, not assumptions.

You routinely claim that your theories should be accepted by default and that others must prove them wrong with evidence despite you having no evidence.

along with misinterpreting my argument into scaling Batman to BWL just because BWL is an alternate version of him. You ignored pretty much all my evidence.

It wasn't a misinterpretation, and I didn't ignore your evidence. You made a giant post about BWL being an alt version of Batman and I correctly summarized it.

 

[Transcending]

I won't respond to the emotional intelligence part because I already said everything I want to but-

It wasn't a misinterpretation, and I didn't ignore your evidence. You made a giant post about BWL being an alt version of Batman and I correctly summarized it.

You did not summarize it. My argument is not that Batman scales to BWL because BWL is an alternate version, it's because they have been consistently stated to be equals specifically and Batman outsmarted him.

 

[Deagonx]

it's because they have been consistently stated to be equals

By referencing the fact that BWL is a jokerized Bruce. So I summarized it accurately.

Batman outsmarted him

Strategically, which has nothing to do with BWL's super genius rating

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Strategically, which has nothing to do with BWL's super genius rating

Why is strategy different

 

[Transcending]

By referencing the fact that BWL is a jokerized Bruce. So I summarized it accurately.

Never referenced that, I showed scans explicitly saying they are equally intelligent. BWL is a jokerized Batman, who is intelligence wise, a perfect replica. An alternate universe version of a character being jokerized doesn't necessarily equate to the main universe version being as intelligent, in this case however, it does.

Strategically, which has nothing to do with BWL's super genius rating

Stated in BWL's page-

Using his intellect, he was able to capture and torture a weakened Monitor and link him with the Anti-Monitor's astral brain in order to destroy all of reality. He also successfully outsmarted Perpetua.

 

[Deagonx]

who is intelligence wise, a perfect replica

Thats your claim, certainly, but none of your scans make a compelling case for it beyond detailing the fact that BWL is also Bruce Wayne, which -- as I've said -- is not something I find compelling.

Stated in BWL's page-

That should be fixed then, that's not a valid basis for being a Supergenius.

 

[Transcending]

Thats your claim, certainly, but none of your scans make a compelling case for it beyond detailing the fact that BWL is also Bruce Wayne, which -- as I've said -- is not something I find compelling.

Really? There's plenty of scans saying BWL is just Batman without morals, without his conscience, that they have the same mind, that they can both do the same things, that Batman can think like BWL, and so on. My scans have proved my case very well, I would say, but if you don't think they said that, I honestly don't know what to say. I will just leave it up to the mods to read the scans themselves and come to their conclusion. Remember that a previous evaluation already confirmed what I am saying is true.

That should be fixed then, that's not a valid basis for being a Supergenius.

I do not agree.

 

[Deagonx]

There's plenty of scans saying BWL is just Batman without morals, without his conscience, that they have the same mind, that they can both do the same things, that Batman can think like BWL, and so on.

Yes, he's a version of Bruce from an alternative universe, I'm aware of that.

but if you don't think they said that, I honestly don't know what to say.

That's not at all what my objection was stated to be.