DC/Crisis Cosmology Revision

[Elizio33]

It should be high 1-a since Source was meant to be supreme being of Greater Omniverse, which means no matter how the entities ranking up, Source will be top 1 in term of Hierarchy. Transcending rest of Hierarchy can be qualify as High 1a yea?

I don't think so. The Source would be just have a much higher degree of Outerversal level than it's subordinates of the Greater Omniverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

It should be high 1-a since Source was meant to be supreme being of Greater Omniverse, which means no matter how the entities ranking up, Source will be top 1 in term of Hierarchy. Transcending rest of Hierarchy can be qualify as High 1a yea?

Nah. High 1-A works in the same way 1-A transcends all notion of quantitative measure below it. High 1-A would be the same logic that transcends all framework of what makes 1-A(hierarchy of R>F). The Source can be visited and exist in the same level of existence as its creations.

 

[Weaver261]

The Source would be just have a much higher degree of Outerversal level than it's subordinates of the Greater Omniverse.

I was done with this since VeryGoofyToddler already said you can exist in the same level existene with your superior and I think that makes sense although it is obviously doesn't quite fitting for this case. But since this got bring up again, I only suggest a higher degree of 1-A since Metron clearly stated the transcendent cosmic ladder starting by comparing chronicler with him and then go to chronicler with source.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This is a very wonky tiering of the Flash stuff tbh, I wish to give a better explanation, if I can @Elizio33.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I was done with this since VeryGoofyToddler already said you can exist in the same level existene with your superior and I think that makes sense although it is obviously doesn't quite fitting for this case. But since this got bring up again, I only suggest a higher degree of 1-A since Metron clearly stated the transcendent cosmic ladder starting by comparing chronicler with him and then go to chronicler with source.

The problem is that the “Omniversal” hierarchy does transcend the “Multiversal” hierarchy that’s why it’s given 1-A to beings beyond Creation. However, like the Multiversal hierarchy there’s no point in which the story reference that each higher up is ontologically superior to the previous. So, unless there are statement to suggest this, it simply lacks context.

 

[Elizio33]

This is a very wonky tiering of the Flash stuff tbh, I wish to give a better explanation, if I can @Elizio33.

Sure

 

[Elizio33]

The problem is that the “Omniversal” hierarchy does transcend the “Multiversal” hierarchy that’s why it’s given 1-A to beings beyond Creation. However, like the Multiversal hierarchy there’s no point in which the story reference that each higher up is ontologically superior to the previous. So, unless there are statement to suggest this, it simply lacks context.

1-A comes from the Gallery of Moments that has R>F over the lesser world and is deeper than space and time, and The Source dreaming the universe. The Source Wall has potential for Low 1-A based on the spanning all dimensions and being located in the confines of space and time.

 

[Xearsay]

You can be higher in a hierarchy without being qualitatively superior.

Thats for a hierarchy of power. In the scan he’s taking about The Source is directly stated to “exist” above Chronicler implying a transcendence related to being and not just power.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

I don't think so. The Source would be just have a much higher degree of Outerversal level than it's subordinates of the Greater Omniverse.

What about this? Source exist within everything

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Thats for a hierarchy of power. In the scan he’s taking about The Source is directly stated to “exist” above Chronicler implying a transcendence related to being and not just power.

The statement is talking about the position in which the Chronicler occupy in the Omniversal hierarchy compared to the Source. So that sort of transcendence wouldn’t qualify for an additional layer.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Nah. High 1-A works in the same way 1-A transcends all notion of quantitative measure below it. High 1-A would be the same logic that transcends all framework of what makes 1-A(hierarchy of R>F). The Source can be visited and exist in the same level of existence as its creations.

I'm not very good at tiering system but does transcending baseline 1a layer as Ontologically count as layer into 1a? If it's so, This can be qualify like I said in before section, Multiverses at least have 6 dimensions and Hands are 6 dimensions which mean there might be higher hands or entities that transcend 6th dimensional hands.

 

[Elizio33]

What about this? Source exist within everything

The Source is life so it exists in all things and gave rise to, encompasses and sustains everything in the Greater Omniverse, and completely transcendent the universe.

 

[Elizio33]

Since this thread is 8 pages long, I would appreciate it if we could save this discussion for later and focus on consensus instead. Any discussion about fixing the tierings will be addressed in another thread.

 

[Weaver261]

The problem is that the “Omniversal” hierarchy does transcend the “Multiversal” hierarchy that’s why it’s given 1-A to beings beyond Creation. However, like the Multiversal hierarchy there’s no point in which the story reference that each higher up is ontologically superior to the previous. So, unless there are statement to suggest this, it simply lacks context.

The semantic goes not much further but the comparison Metron made was interesting enough. Metron said "You're above on several rungs of cosmic ladder. A being of Omniverse, not being of the multiverse. And still The Source exists above you."
First he compare himself with chronicler in the way you stated how Omniversal hierarchy transcends Multiversal hierarchy. Then he continue to compare chronicler with source the same way. Anyway, let's just wait for the new issue of flash and see our theories actually become fruitful or not. This thread is pretty much done already.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I'm not very good at tiering system but does transcending baseline 1a layer as Ontologically count as layer into 1a? If it's so, This can be qualify like I said in before section, Multiverses at least have 6 dimensions and Hands are 6 dimensions which mean there might be higher hands or entities that transcend 6th dimensional hands.

Yes, being ontologically superior to 1-A grants an additional layer of 1-A transcendence.

Sixth Dimension seems to be attributed as something that pertains to the main Multiverse unless the “Banks of Creation” mentioned by Alpheus is the Sixth Dimension. If so, then the higher Hands function on the same level of existence as Perpetua, thus the only difference is in power.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Since this thread is 8 pages long, I would appreciate it if we could save this discussion for later and focus on consensus instead. Any discussion about fixing the tierings will be addressed in another thread.

If @NHTkenshin2 proposal doesn’t spur anything new. Then I think going with the proposal is fine, since there’s enough mods vote.

 

[Elizio33]

If @NHTkenshin2 proposal doesn’t spur anything new. Then I think going with the proposal is fine, since there’s enough mods vote.

Yeah NHTkenshin2 is allowed to give his/her thoughts here, but that's about it. 48 hours have passed and most agreed with the thread.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Wanna give a brief summary of what's happening in new Flash volume.

First and foremost, a distinction between the Speed Force and the Still Force should be made: The Speed Force, as defined in previous comics, is, for lack of a better term, causality itself, it is repeatedly defined as something that exists throughout all of space, time and dimensions, with the issue preceding vol. 6 of The Flash straight up calling it an omni-dimensional quantum constant, it is also defined numerous times as being change itself, or the reason why the Multiverse is in constant motion, and so, it clearly acts as a sort-of Multiversal time dimension. The Still Force is, as its direct opposite, the exact antithesis of all of that: it is changelessness, it is acausality, as The Crown of Thawnes defines it, to be 'still' is to be 'immutable'. Wally after attaining stillness also goes outside of time and the thread of his own story.

Or, in VSBW terms, it is what it means to have Acausality (Type 4).

In #11, we get this line from a Linear Man, who tells Barry that all forces (Speed, Still, Sphere of Gods, ect.) are ultimately made out of one substance: Time. And to be clear, this definitely isn't the time that an Earth within the Orrery of Worlds operates on, since the Speed Force–which encompasses all time in the Multiverse–is a subset of this capital-T Time. Likewise, the Speed Force (or 'change' itself) is seen as something that sucks on Time to transmute it into change, so Time in this context is definitely not some causal system. As a further addition to that, it is also most probably the same Time that Worlds Finest talks about, i.e. the Sixth Dimension.

You could look at both the Speed and Still Forces as being two properties that things within the Multiverse operate on: mutablity (change, motion, ect.) and immutablity (stillness, acausality, ect.)

It's not very difficult to see why the Garden would be something that is immutable: the comic defines it as a place where speed doesn't exist, it also exists beyond space and time, therefore, isn't subject to change, which is something we see within it where everyone is seen as a statue.

Hence, why I disagree with this:

The same story also featured an unknown conceptual place within the Speed Force called the "Garden of Shadows" or "Gallery of Moments", beyond the Source Wall

Firstly, non of the scans provided really prove that the Garden exists beyond the Source Wall, that is something that is just directly disproved by this scan here, which refers to the Garden as the slowest possible vibration within the Universe, and so, it is a vibratory realm, something that all realms within the Multiverse share:

But again in my opinion, the Garden, all things considered, isn't even something that extends beyond a single Universe, it's status as the lowest frequency of vibration within the Universe just makes it a sort-of conceptual form of a Universe without space or time. We directly see things that reference that idea as Wally sees Irey as a fixed statue within the Garden, implying that the Garden is the Universe, just at a conceptual, still level.

Obviously, I am not saying that a single world within the Orrery of Worlds is 1-A, since this isn't the world itself per se, its the world stripped to no-space and no-time.

As for the Arc-Angles, I find it pretty hard that they're 1-A, I have seen people claim them to have created the Garden, but I'm not really sure where that comes from. In addition to that, they are described as geometrical, dimensional, are located in curved space, and their name is quite literally a mixture of an arc and an angle, all of which are clearly pretty spatio-geometrical features, so I am not sure how that works with them being 1-A.

On the bright side, I do think the Garden (as well as anything bound by either the Speed Force and the Still Force) would scale below the Sixth Dimension/Time at a bare minimum because of the aforesaid reasons.

---

we should also not rush this thread and wait until the last issue drops next week, since the Flash will likely go outside the Source Wall and it will probably show some interesting stuff about the cosmology.

 

[Weaver261]

I want to suggest making a new thread by linking this one solely for the discussion of Garden, Arc Angles, Speed Force and Deep Change. And we could discuss about new flash issue there too. We can conclude this thread as this is now since it's already done. I also want to point out of a few things on @NHTkenshin2 's proposal. If making a new crt isn't feasible, I've made a discussion thread solely for this flash run.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

As @Elizio33 the thread is going on for too long. I decided to skip the first portion for Elizio to discern what he wants to do. So this will be one response on the disagreement portion and then the rest is up for Elizio to handle. I won’t be responding beyond what I already put here to not derail this thread any further. Now for the metas and potatoes of the argument:

Hence, why I disagree with this:


Firstly, non of the scans provided really prove that the Garden exists beyond the Source Wall, that is something that is just directly disproved by this scan here, which refers to the Garden as the slowest possible vibration within the Universe, and so, it is a vibratory realm, something that all realms within the Multiverse share:

The Garden doesn’t “exist” anywhere. It’s purely an abstract realm in the Speedforce connected to the Speedsters mind. Hence why the Speedforce predates the Multiverse and is one of its fundamental force that drives and push motion of essentially everything as you mentioned. There’s nothing say it has a direct location and the Flash story doesn’t seem to indicate any difference in that notion.

But again in my opinion, the Garden, all things considered, isn't even something that extends beyond a single Universe, it's status as the lowest frequency of vibration within the Universe just makes it a sort-of conceptual form of a Universe without space or time. We directly see things that reference that idea as Wally sees Irey as a fixed statue within the Garden, implying that the Garden is the Universe, just at a conceptual, still level.

What kind of gibberish is this? The Garden being the “Universe at a conceptual level” is explained to be all forms of memories and other form of mental construction. It’s not an actual Universe or some sort of conceptual equivalence of the Universe to say “oh it’s bound to the Multiverse because it is a Universe.”

Obviously, I am not saying that a single world within the Orrery of Worlds is 1-A, since this isn't the world itself per se, its the world stripped to no-space and no-time.

It’s not a “world” in what you describe it to be, but yes your headcanon at least advise you not to give the Orrery 1-A.

As for the Arc-Angles, I find it pretty hard that they're 1-A, I have seen people claim them to have created the Garden, but I'm not really sure where that comes from. In addition to that, they are described as geometrical, dimensional, are located in curved space, and their name is quite literally a mixture of an arc and an angle, all of which are clearly pretty spatio-geometrical features, so I am not sure how that works with them being 1-A.

Their name is more prominently linked to an mathematic approach of “Archangels.” Not anything to do with spatial-geometrical dimensions as they are not qualified to being dimensions of physics, and most likely not anything with geometry as well. Since they’re also consider to be nth-dimensional omnivalent beings and they preceded the stature of the Universe, and that’s described as n-dimensional.

As for your question. They told Wally about all his memories and the Gallery as “their” gift to him.

On the bright side, I do think the Garden (as well as anything bound by either the Speed Force and the Still Force) would scale below the Sixth Dimension/Time at a bare minimum because of the aforesaid reasons.

No. It wouldn’t since the Sixth Dimension has some sort of temporal effect.