Crisis Cosmology: Scaling Characters

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I told you, no one is safe from death, they only slow it down by making their own rules, but at the end of everything, nothing cannot die, even concepts die.
Someone who cannot be claimed is someone who can escape death, because there is still hope for life

Hope doesn't have to due with the concept of Death because you ca hope not to die yet you still can. I assume you're using the battle between Chorozan and Morpheus which isn't meant to be opposite but counters.

[Lucifer know it #75]

Except Silkman claims he keeps cheating thus Death wouldn't “ever” get him. The Void endlessly creates new creations thud by attaching himself to one, he never paradoxically die.

This is why the Void is where Death has not been. This is obvious since Yahweh killed Lilith in #69 but we see her in #75 not to mention Silkman during #56 mentions in the future he would die(referring to Lucifer: Nirvana) yet he was there in the Void where Death does not reach.

[No one exist in end of everything except death]

Referring to them and the those who they are servants of: sentient life. Has nothing to due with beings that transcend Death.

[More]

Lucifer predates the Universe, also made it, and is part of a being that Death has no claim over. Not to mention the statement that Death has no claim over him.

[Even the concept]
Where is lucifer? he died, where is the gods? They all died

Destiny is a side effect of Creation making which Lucifer is not. Lucifer also isn't God and it never mentioned God, who can't die mentioned several times in Lucifer. You have a habit of saying things that the scans do not mention and imply things contextually than what was said directly.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Hope doesn't have to due with the concept of Death

NDE is a form of hope to stay alive, Lucifer knows that no one doesn't die, he clearly said it

Except Silkman

The reason Silkman didn't die was because he wasn't killed by someone, that's why he didn't die but in the end he also died, because it was according to Lucifer's words. Nothing doesn't die. Do you think that Death killed them with her own hands? or claim the death of someone who has been murdered? She just follows the rules

sentient life

That is a personal assumption, it is very clearly stated there, in the end only our sister, death

Lucifer predates the Universe, also made it, and is part of a being that Death has no claim over. Not to mention the statement that Death has no claim over him.

Since she didn't have the rules to claim the death of someone who wasn't supposed to die, it wasn't the time for him to die

Lucifer predates the Universe

Are you serious?

Destiny is a side effect of Creation

That's Lucifer's statement, even though everything is predestined. That's why lucifer wants to change his status in the book of destiny. Because he knew his destiny was in the book, burning it did not make Lucifer free from the book, if he returned after death, he would also still be in the book. That is the concept of destiny

Lucifer also isn't God and it never mentioned God

Even gods die, of course Lucifer too, nothing is safe at the end of the universe except death.

Lucifer is not omnipotent, even Yahweh is not omnipotent. The original form is almighty and it does not scale to lucifer or even to yahweh

Yahweh was originally formed emptiness, he was originally just substanceless. In that form he cannot do anything until a physical being gives him power. All the gods in the sphere of the gods are like that
Even he know that, Yahweh is also not the creator of the endless, because there are creations that are earlier than Yahweh's creation, Silkman is not even part of his creation. Is that what you want to call omnipotent?
The endless existed even before the first god existed

 

[Deleted member 30746]

NDE is a form of hope to stay alive, Lucifer knows that no one doesn't die, he clearly said it

The reason Silkman didn't die was because he wasn't killed by someone, that's why he didn't die but in the end he also died, because it was according to Lucifer's words. Nothing doesn't die. Do you think that Death killed them with her own hands? or claim the death of someone who has been murdered? She just follows the rules

That is a personal assumption, it is very clearly stated there, in the end only our sister, death

Since she didn't have the rules to claim the death of someone who wasn't supposed to die, it wasn't the time for him to die

Are you serious?

That's Lucifer's statement, even though everything is predestined. That's why lucifer wants to change his status in the book of destiny. Because he knew his destiny was in the book, burning it did not make Lucifer free from the book, if he returned after death, he would also still be in the book. That is the concept of destiny

Even gods die, of course Lucifer too, nothing is safe at the end of the universe except death.

Lucifer is not omnipotent, even Yahweh is not omnipotent. The original form is almighty and it does not scale to lucifer or even to yahweh

Yahweh was originally formed emptiness, he was originally just substanceless. In that form he cannot do anything until a physical being gives him power. All the gods in the sphere of the gods are like that
Even he know that, Yahweh is also not the creator of the endless, because there are creations that are earlier than Yahweh's creation, Silkman is not even part of his creation. Is that what you want to call omnipotent?
The endless existed even before the first god existed

It's extremely funny that you dismiss it as Lucifer's expression, my friend, what do you expect to happen???

Destiny was not restricting Lucifer, the book carried by Destiny, based on Yahweh's script, was preventing Lucifer from "true freedom". He just can't determine his own destiny. Which is part of Yahweh's plan.

Death cannot function in a vacuum. Those like Cestis suffered the consequences as they floated through the void, and they became somewhat immortal. How many times has it been said that Yahweh is eternal and that death cannot reach those who have attained Godhood. Gyges and Garamas traveled many times to adapt themselves to an order other than Yahweh's, and even went into the Dreaming. They decided to become Yahweh to be the determiner of all reality, and they eventually succeeded.

The Monkey King-Buddha story shows that everything is a part of Yahweh (or rather, the synagogue he represents is beyond religious definitions). He is the creator of everything. People just put her in a delusional mold and now you are exaggerating this more than necessary, I'm tired of this situation..

JEM claim to punish Yahweh but they could never do anything to him, they took advantage of his absence to plan the destruction of creation and the process pushed the situation towards that. Lucifer even erased Silk-Man from existence. Yahweh holds all the cards. Even this version of him is far above JEM, Endless, Lucifer and Michael.

 

[Eseseso]

I don't think Nabu was upgraded yet.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

NDE is a form of hope to stay alive, Lucifer knows that no one doesn't die, he clearly said it

“Hope to stay alive” is very touching. It doesn't mean much.

The reason Silkman didn't die was because he wasn't killed by someone, that's why he didn't die but in the end he also died, because it was according to Lucifer's words. Nothing doesn't die. Do you think that Death killed them with her own hands? or claim the death of someone who has been murdered? She just follows the rules

He did die. He literally mentions that in the future he would be killed. The Void has no “time” thus he never died because there wasn't a period when he did die.

That is a personal assumption, it is very clearly stated there, in the end only our sister, death

Yeah, the Endless talks about them and how “they” don't last longer than the Universe except their sister. It has nothing to do with God or the Archangels.

Since she didn't have the rules to claim the death of someone who wasn't supposed to die, it wasn't the time for him to die

There isn't a time when he does die. Death is telling us in the prior issue that any choice can unmake us because Lucifer's own powers held him there. She explained in the next story that she has no claim over him and that unless something happens, he’ll be stuck there forever.

The only way Death can have a hold on Lucifer is via destruction by Yahweh. She literally tells us that he can kill her. Not to mention, in his Creation, withheld Death from his creations. Not to mention, she might never get the chance to see Lucifer again because she never has met him until now as she has stuff she has been “dying to say” to Lucifer.

Are you serious?

Yes, because the entire premise of Lucifer’s and Michael's creation is to make Creation.

That's Lucifer's statement, even though everything is predestined. That's why lucifer wants to change his status in the book of destiny. Because he knew his destiny was in the book, burning it did not make Lucifer free from the book, if he returned after death, he would also still be in the book. That is the concept of destiny

That's not how it works. The Endless came as the first life came thus by making Creation, the Endless popped up as by-products. Lucifer burning the book isn't part of what “side-effect” means and the scan has nothing to do with death.

Even gods die, of course Lucifer too, nothing is safe at the end of the universe except death.

Elaine states she can't die. Garames states they can't die. Yahweh calls himself eternal. Lucifer is much more powerful than the gods except for Yahweh.

Lucifer is not omnipotent, even Yahweh is not omnipotent. The original form is almighty and it does not scale to lucifer or even to yahweh

Except Yahweh true nature is still him. Do you not know how aspect work?

Yahweh was originally formed emptiness, he was originally just substanceless. In that form he cannot do anything until a physical being gives him power. All the gods in the sphere of the gods are like that

Wow! That's not how it works!

Even he know that, Yahweh is also not the creator of the endless, because there are creations that are earlier than Yahweh's creation, Silkman is not even part of his creation. Is that what you want to call omnipotent?
The endless existed even before the first god existed

Every Creation is a byproduct of Yahweh Creation’s in that they are all the same. He came from an earlier, cruder version of Creation. All Creations are made the same and die in the end. He was shaped to make the “beginning” and all versions of Creation are of what came after him. Nothing predates him because all his actions and things happen since the beginning when he set all rules in motion including one for the Void “where all things return.”

 

[Elizio33]

On a second thought, should the Anti-Monitor have another key on his profile for absorbing his two brothers (Monitor and World Forger) ? He took control of the Ultra-Monitor, whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he'd felt before", using the Anti-Life that Perpetua returned to him and was only forced to free his brothers after being hit by Flash's Speed Force Car.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

On a second thought, should the Anti-Monitor have another key on his profile for absorbing his two brothers (Monitor and World Forger) ? He took control of the Ultra-Monitor, whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he'd felt before", using the Anti-Life that Perpetua returned to him and was only forced to free his brothers after being hit by Flash's Speed Force Car.

It's not important enough to warrant a key.

 

[Elizio33]

It's not important enough to warrant a key.

I guess it was only very briefly.

 

[Elizio33]

Mxy's profile is tricky because it has several keys, one of which already includes most of what I proposed as well as elements from the Emperor Joker stories on his Current Incarnation key.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Mxy's profile is tricky because it has several keys, one of which already includes most of what I proposed as well as elements from the Emperor Joker stories on his Current Incarnation key.

That one is fine by me.

 

[Elizio33]

That one is fine by me.

Is it really wise to combine Morrison/Snyder interpretation of Mister Mxyzptlk (Crisis Times Five & Sixth Dimension storylines) to DeMatteis/Joe Kelly/Jeph Loeb's Emperor Joker storyline?

@Deagonx @Emirp sumitpo I need your help for this one, please

 

[Deagonx]

Is it really wise to combine Morrison/Snyder interpretation of Mister Mxyzptlk (Crisis Times Five & Sixth Dimension storylines) to DeMatteis/Joe Kelly/Jeph Loeb's Emperor Joker storyline?

@Deagonx @Emirp sumitpo I need your help for this one, please

Hmm. I'm not entirely sure. What would be the primary difference in how we characterize Mxy based on if we include or exclude it?

 

[Elizio33]

Hmm. I'm not entirely sure. What would be the primary difference in how we characterize Mxy based on if we include or exclude it?

I'm not sure. I was wondering if i should upgrade the Current Incarnation key on Mxy's profile or just remove the elements from Snyder's Sixth Dimension and Morrison's Crisis Times Five stories and add them to a new Crisis Cosmology key for Mxy ??

 

[Elizio33]

Because the profile of Mxy has three keys: Original | Pre-Crisis | Current Incarnation

This is the Attack Potency from Mxyzptlk's profile on his Current Incarnation key: Varies up to at least Solar System level physically (Emperor Joker physically overpowered Superman.[80] Easily matched and overpowered enraged Rebirth Superman in a physical brawl[75]), and up to Low Complex Multiverse level with powers in the lower worlds (Stated to have infinite power.[88] Emperor Joker with his powers was able to warp the universe, hell and heaven, as well as the Sphere of Gods in his image and overpowered residents of the Sphere of Gods, such as Darkseid, High Father, Phantom Stranger, etc. And was able to overpower Hal-Spectre as well as Doctor Fate and Takion. He did all of this with extreme ease, and it was implied that he could do far more if he tried, but it seems like he wasn't interested.[80] Considered one of the most powerful beings in all of DC Comics.[72] Was going to unimagine the DC Multiverse out of existence[110][111][112][113]), Low Complex Multiverse level in the Fifth Dimension (Is a Fifth Dimensional entity[105] who sees the entire[70] 3-D universe as fiction.[87] Mxyzptlk is one of the most powerful beings from his dimension.[72] Fifth Dimensional beings transcends space and time, shape and form, length and width. Mxyzptlk casually created the 3-D universe.[4] The 3-D universe is spatially flat from their perspective.[114] Mister Mxyzptlk is the same as his other[70] variations which appeared in the main continuity.[75] Viewed Superman across the infinite realities on a gameboard.[76] Sees Superman and Batman's universe as nothing but fiction and can rewrite it with ease.[102] The Fifth Dimension is everywhere in the multiverse, which includes the Sphere of Gods[72])

Mxy's profile also includes the non-canon World Funniest story in addition to the Emperor Joker and the Sixth Dimension stories.

 

[Deagonx]

It should be okay to keep those elements. The Cosmology split allows characters to scale to multiple things if they have a good basis for doing so. However the "sees the entire 3-D universe as fiction" should be removed, as he definitely does not see it as fiction.

 

[Elizio33]

It should be okay to keep those elements. The Cosmology split allows characters to scale to multiple things if they have a good basis for doing so. However the "sees the entire 3-D universe as fiction" should be removed, as he definitely does not see it as fiction.

Well, in Morrison's Crisis Times Five story, the Imps saw the 3D world as fiction, or as 2D drawings if you prefer, and in Snyder's Sixth Dimension story, Mxy was reducing the material multiverse to sketches, even the pencil drawing the world has been affected by Mxy. This clearly shows that Mr. Mxyzptlk sees 3D as fiction.

 

[Elizio33]

The only thing I would add on Mxy's profile is that the Imps are above Hypertime from Morrison's Crisis Times Five, hence the High 1-C tier coupled with their level of existence in the Fifth Dimension.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Emperor Joker's storyline doesn't really take away from his powers. You can also link World Funniest as well but only to a certain degree on how much was destroyed. Separating it is fine but World Funniest should be included as something if he didn't hold back on his power in his Pre-Crisis key.

 

[Deagonx]

Well, in Morrison's Crisis Times Five story, the Imps saw the 3D world as fiction, or as 2D drawings if you prefer, and in Snyder's Sixth Dimension story, Mxy was reducing the material multiverse to sketches, even the pencil drawing the world has been affected by Mxy. This clearly shows that Mr. Mxyzptlk sees 3D as fiction.

I wouldn't say that it shows he sees it as fiction. People from the regular world can affect him, and he doesn't have author-like control over any of it.

 

[Robo432343]

I wouldn't say that it shows he sees it as fiction. People from the regular world can affect him, and he doesn't have author-like control over any of it.

what about the stuff on his profile
though it is true people from the real world can affect him
(Is a Fifth Dimensional entity[105] who sees the entire[70] 3-D universe as fiction.[87] Mxyzptlk is one of the most powerful beings from his dimension.[72] Fifth Dimensional beings transcends space and time, shape and form, length and width. Mxyzptlk casually created the 3-D universe.[4] The 3-D universe is spatially flat from their perspective.[114] Mister Mxyzptlk is the same as his other[70] variations which appeared in the main continuity.[75] Viewed Superman across the infinite realities on a gameboard.[76] Sees Superman and Batman's universe as nothing but fiction and can rewrite it with ease

 

[Elizio33]

How about?

High Complex Multiverse level in the Fifth Dimension (Mister Mxyzptlk is one of the most powerful beings in existence. Exists as an imaginary-thought construct in the Fifth Dimension, an imaginary plane existing all around and between the realms of the DC Multiverse at the exception of the Sixth Dimension and the Source Wall. Fifth-Dimensional Imps can travel freely through Time and Hypertime, the time half of Existence. The 3-D universe is spatially flat from their perspective. Mister Mxyzptlk is the same as his other variations which appeared in the main continuity. Perceives Superman through infinite realities on a game board. Sees Superman and Batman’s universe as nothing more than a game that he can change)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

How about?

High Complex Multiverse level in the Fifth Dimension (Mister Mxyzptlk is one of the most powerful beings in existence. Exists as an imaginary-thought construct in the Fifth Dimension, an imaginary plane existing all around and between the realms of the DC Multiverse at the exception of the Sixth Dimension and the Source Wall. Fifth-Dimensional Imps can travel through Time and Hypertime, the time half of Existence. The 3-D universe is spatially flat from his perspective. Mister Mxyzptlk is the same as his other variations which appeared in the main continuity. Viewed Superman across the infinite realities on a gameboard. Sees Superman and Batman's universe as nothing but fiction and can rewrite it with ease)

I would say: “Sees Superman and Batman’s universe as nothing more than a game that he can change.”

 

[Elizio33]

I would say: “Sees Superman and Batman’s universe as nothing more than a game that he can change.”

I made the changes

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I made the changes

Yeah, using words like “ease and fiction” is very controversial. Even when mentioned, the idea of if it's not consistent nor coherent, it does not count regardless of statements.

 

[Eseseso]

I don't think Nabu was upgraded yet.

To Low 1-C

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

^He replied to his own comment to remind us. What a menace.

 

[Elizio33]

To Low 1-C

Yes.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Yahweh's

Yahweh Creation’s

You are right, yahweh and lucifer are almighty, creator of everything. Proof:
•Yahweh is the only creator
•The creator of everything
•Omnipresent
•He is the beginning of everything and the creator of the endless
•More feats
•And again

Lucifer, he is free from death because he is not claimed by death, at the end of everything he remains. You are right according to what the author said:
•Wow he knew it
•Very omnipotent, acts as he pleases, so he can do whatever he wants
•All died but lucifer did not die
•As the author said

Tier 0++

 

[Deleted member 30746]

You are right, yahweh and lucifer are almighty, creator of everything. Proof:
•Yahweh is the only creator
•The creator of everything
•Omnipresent
•He is the beginning of everything and the creator of the endless
•More feats
•And again

Lucifer, he is free from death because he is not claimed by death, at the end of everything he remains. You are right according to what the author said:
•Wow he knew it
•Very omnipotent, acts as he pleases, so he can do whatever he wants
•All died but lucifer did not die
•As the author said

Tier 0++

Since you don't fully understand what I'm telling you, I won't continue with this. We also deviate from the main purpose of the thread.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Because the profile of Mxy has three keys: Original | Pre-Crisis | Current Incarnation

This is the Attack Potency from Mxyzptlk's profile on his Current Incarnation key: Varies up to at least Solar System level physically (Emperor Joker physically overpowered Superman.[80] Easily matched and overpowered enraged Rebirth Superman in a physical brawl[75]), and up to Low Complex Multiverse level with powers in the lower worlds (Stated to have infinite power.[88] Emperor Joker with his powers was able to warp the universe, hell and heaven, as well as the Sphere of Gods in his image and overpowered residents of the Sphere of Gods, such as Darkseid, High Father, Phantom Stranger, etc. And was able to overpower Hal-Spectre as well as Doctor Fate and Takion. He did all of this with extreme ease, and it was implied that he could do far more if he tried, but it seems like he wasn't interested.[80] Considered one of the most powerful beings in all of DC Comics.[72] Was going to unimagine the DC Multiverse out of existence[110][111][112][113]), Low Complex Multiverse level in the Fifth Dimension (Is a Fifth Dimensional entity[105] who sees the entire[70] 3-D universe as fiction.[87] Mxyzptlk is one of the most powerful beings from his dimension.[72] Fifth Dimensional beings transcends space and time, shape and form, length and width. Mxyzptlk casually created the 3-D universe.[4] The 3-D universe is spatially flat from their perspective.[114] Mister Mxyzptlk is the same as his other[70] variations which appeared in the main continuity.[75] Viewed Superman across the infinite realities on a gameboard.[76] Sees Superman and Batman's universe as nothing but fiction and can rewrite it with ease.[102] The Fifth Dimension is everywhere in the multiverse, which includes the Sphere of Gods[72])

Mxy's profile also includes the non-canon World Funniest story in addition to the Emperor Joker and the Sixth Dimension stories.

Add, fifth dimension beyond concept of time and space [ unstoppable doom patrol #4]

Imps in the 5th layer of the 6 layers of existence
Here

 

[Ramasugita11]

Since you don't fully understand what I'm telling you, I won't continue with this. We also deviate from the main purpose of the thread.

That's right, too deviated from the purpose of the thread, that's also the reason I'm lazy to debate here. Come to my thread
Lucifer is truly omnipotent, you are right, you didn't even read what I gave you

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Sneaky removal of R>F. Why though?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You are right, yahweh and lucifer are almighty, creator of everything. Proof:
•Yahweh is the only creator
•The creator of everything
•Omnipresent
•He is the beginning of everything and the creator of the endless
•More feats
•And again

Lucifer, he is free from death because he is not claimed by death, at the end of everything he remains. You are right according to what the author said:
•Wow he knew it
•Very omnipotent, acts as he pleases, so he can do whatever he wants
•All died but lucifer did not die
•As the author said

Tier 0++

I'm not arguing for this point. You miss half the context for those scans and your need to act smug isn't funny.

 

[Confluctor]

I wouldn't say that it shows he sees it as fiction.

Is this a joke?

He literally has the most clear cut evidence of R>F in fiction.

People from the regular world can affect him,

Yes, because he literally reduces his dimensionality when operating in the lower worlds. In his own domain, the only times he was affected was by someone like SBP who was literally amped into higher dimensions by Z.

and he doesn't have author-like control over any of it.

Irrelevant and not necessary, but Batman and Superman Annual completely refutes this point instantly, among others.


Good lord, the state of DC is absolutely amazing these days, isn't it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Good lord, the state of DC is absolutely amazing these days, isn't it.

Ultima revision wishes to change that. No worries!

 

[Ramasugita11]

I'm not arguing for this point. You miss half the context for those scans and your need to act smug isn't funny.

You equate Yahweh with the presence, these two are different things. Yahweh is not a presence, yahweh is an aspect of the presence.
Yahweh's power and presence cannot be equated Yahweh was formed by humans into a god, a god was born in a dreaming realm, Yahweh will die if his worshipers no longer worship him, while the presence did not die.


For higher dimensional problems, there is no need for r>f if the comic applies the concept of geometric axes.
Beyond height, width, depth and time are higher spatial dimensions.
My advice to Elazio is that you should apply the concept of 5-dimensional space and 5-D extradimensional

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

You equate Yahweh with the presence, these two are different things. Yahweh is not a presence, yahweh is an aspect of the presence.

He was literally called the Presence many times in his story.

Yahweh's power and presence cannot be equated Yahweh was formed by humans into a god, a god was born in a dreaming realm, Yahweh will die if his worshipers no longer worship him, while the presence did not die.

His shape was formed. He, himself wasn't, missing the context behind the powers of dreams to make gods based on how humans see them. If you can't understand that concept I see no reason why I have to respond to your point about Yahweh and Lucifer being deathless.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Ultima revision wishes to change that. No worries!

 

[Ramasugita11]

He was literally called the Presence many times in his story.

His shape was formed. He, himself wasn't, missing the context behind the powers of dreams to make gods based on how humans see them. If you can't understand that concept I see no reason why I have to respond to your point about Yahweh and Lucifer being deathless.

I know that, but in context, the presence that the angle mentioned is Yahweh, the presence is the god Abraham, whose real name is Yahweh.
He is mentioned as the presence, because he is an aspect of the original presence, who is outside the void, outside the dark, outside the monitor sphere, outside the source wall, namely the overvoid

You don't understand the story bro, yahweh is shown several times as a being who is not omnipotent, a flawed creation, does not reach the domain of others, was formed by humans and acts according to what humans want.
You have to know what the concept of archetype is, god is an archetypal concept that exists in the sphere of the gods.

How about we discuss in my thread?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

How about we discuss in my thread?

We already discussed this many times and I rather not.