Crisis Cosmology: Scaling Characters

[Eseseso]

The Doctor Fate (Classic) profile is locked but I thought Doctor Fate was already revised to a Low 1-C tier in another thread? Unless I'm mistaken with the Post-Flashpoint version, but the Classic should at least be comparable or even superior.

I think the Low 1-C fate thread was made before the downgrades.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If the Hands are High 1-C then Mxy can't be High 1-C as well.

 

[Elizio33]

If the Hands are High 1-C then Mxy can't be Hugh 1-C as well.

Lower degrees of High 1-C.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Lower degrees of High 1-C.

Kind of gets destroyed with all these changes then.

 

[Ramasugita11]

I already did. It says the Sixth Dimension is where multiverses are created, but comics says that the Sixth Dimension is where the MAIN multiverse was created and set in motion by Perpetua.

It's never mentioned as such, just dc MAIN multiverse.
Isn't it already explained, there are more multiverses in the greater omniverse? the hands job is only to create.
After all, the sixth dimension in the comics is only mentioned as a place to monitor creation/room controls
•Sixth-dimension
•Very tip-top of everything like penthouse
•Highest plane

 

[Elizio33]

Okay so i changed the Hands and those scaling to them as High 1-C.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

•Sixth-dimension

“In the Greater Omniverse.”

•Very tip-top of everything like penthouse

Of the Multiverse.

•Highest plane

Of the Multiverse.

 

[Eseseso]

Okay so i changed the Hands and those scaling to them as High 1-C.

So only presence level people are 1-B?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So only presence level people are 1-B?

Yes, which just means it and the Great Darkness.

 

[Elizio33]

It's never mentioned as such, just dc MAIN multiverse.
Isn't it already explained, there are more multiverses in the greater omniverse? the hands job is only to create.
After all, the sixth dimension in the comics is only mentioned as a place to monitor creation/room controls
•Sixth-dimension
•Very tip-top of everything like penthouse
•Highest plane

Unless the Sixth Dimension is actually at the top of all multiverses, whatever multiverses there are in the omniverse, the Sixth Dimension would always be their highest and final realm and where they were created and set in motion by super-celestials like Perpetua, but we don't have enough evidence for that.

 

[Elizio33]

So only presence level people are 1-B?

Yes

 

[Elizio33]

Is there anything else to discuss before the thread closes? This is still the time.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Is there anything else to discuss before the thread closes? This is still the time.

Yes, can we differentiate the Presence from the Light?

 

[Deagonx]

I don't believe the Presence and Light should be differentiated, in the Crisis Cosmology IMO they are very directly the same thing.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't believe the Presence and Light should be differentiated, in the Crisis Cosmology IMO they are very directly the same thing.

“Very directly?” I've read it multiple times and I have seen no concrete evidence of this.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Overvoid being the Light is fine. The Presence being the Light baffles me and doesn't even make sense. That means the Great Darkness could easily just end the Presence at any time it wants and that instead of being the Creator of said concept duality would apparently be apart of it.

 

[Elizio33]

Yes, can we differentiate the Presence from the Light?

Okay, let's talk about it for once and for all before closing this thread.

 

[Deagonx]

“Very directly?” I've read it multiple times and I have seen no concrete evidence of this.

In Williamson's introduction of the Light he makes a clear effort to combine the origin story of the Overvoid with existing depictions of the Presence. He cites the Swamp Thing story and the Great Darkness -- which has long been treated as being explicitly the opposite of the Presence -- as part of the Light's story after introducing it with Overvoid's origin story.

To me it was incredibly direct.

 

[Eseseso]

Is there anything else to discuss before the thread closes? This is still the time.

Just Nabu from what I can tell, and that's just a matter of getting the page unlocked.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Okay, let's talk about it for once and for all before closing this thread.

We've discussed this. If we went from Swamp Thing lore and take then it's quite evident that God as in “the Presence” and the Light are two different things.

If we take just Crisis events. Paint it like this during the Final Crisis we thought the Overvoid was Supreme and the only thing. In Metal, it was just treated as space, and the Source seemed to take the position of being an eternal energy that was not born and just was. Now, it's apparently the Darkness then the Light/Overvoid.

In Williamson's introduction of the Light he makes a clear effort to combine the origin story of the Overvoid with existing depictions of the Presence. He cites the Swamp Thing story and the Great Darkness -- which has long been treated as being explicitly the opposite of the Presence -- as part of the Light's story after introducing it with Overvoid's origin story.

You've read Swamp Thing where they differentiate between God and the Light? The Light was just mentioned to come from Heaven and the Presence in those existing depictions is that the voice and the presence of God exist as aspects to commute with souls and angels in Heaven.

As for the Overvoid, it was never called the Presence, and Morrison interpreted the Presence as just the creator of the Material plane and Heaven which doesn't align with the Overvoid anyway in Final Crisis. The origin story pertains only to the Overvoid. In Metal, we've only seen the Presence = Source while they treat the Overvoid as just space, possibly as the Greater Omniverse and not a sentient Void.

To me it was incredibly direct.

That concerns me.

 

[Deagonx]

If we went from Swamp Thing lore and take then it's quite evident that God as in “the Presence” and the Light are two different things.

I don't see why that would be the case. The Light in the Swamp Thing storyline is very definitively God/the Presence.

You've read Swamp Thing where they differentiate between God and the Light? The Light was just mentioned to come from Heaven and the Presence in those existing depictions is that the voice and the presence of God exist as aspects to commute with souls and angels in Heaven.

What are you referring to?

That concerns me.

This is rude for no reason.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't see why that would be the case. The Light in the Swamp Thing storyline is very definitively God/the Presence.

The Light in comparison to the Darkness as dualities:

In the afterlife? Where recently, the war between Light and Darkness has evolved into a tense embrace; invocation at arms’ length of the eternal conflict and essential unity of Good and Evil.

God in comparison to the two as dualities.

With that consummate realization, I break through the barriers of my own blind ignorance. Into the warm sunshine of understanding. To roam free. As free as the purest thoughts. As pure as the symmetry of nature. Beyond all obstacles. To the point where time is no time. And Space is no space. Where only silence may observe. AS God breathes in. And breathes out. Exhaling his quintessence of perfection.

Where Light and Darkness are duality. God is Oneness as depicted as both the Black and the White and beyond all obstacles.

What are you referring to?

Aspects of the Presence? The full Godhead never appeared in Creation. Unless you're trying to equate The Voice, the Presence, The Word = The Full Presence.

This is rude for no reason.

You have in the past as well. That's not really rude, I was just being snarky and I had nothing else to reply with that comment. What do you define as rude? It came off to rub you the wrong way because that's not very “rude?”

 

[Deagonx]

Where Light and Darkness are duality. God is Oneness as depicted as both the Black and the White and beyond all obstacles.

So your argument is that we cannot treat the Presence as the Light, because the Light is portrayed as a part of a duality and you interpret the art in that scan as defining God as non-dual?

I think that's a pretty weak argument, nothing in the scan actually calls it that, and other sources have concretely defined the Presence as being part of a duality, such as Lucifer (vol 3) which defines Lucifer as the Perfect Dark to the Presence's Perfect Light that he needed to define himself, which fits very naturally with the connection between the Great Darkness and Lucifer.

You have in the past as well. That's not really rude, I was just being snarky and I had nothing else to reply with that comment. What do you define as rude? It came off to rub you the wrong way because that's not very “rude?”

Snarky is rude. If you had nothing else to reply with, you did not need to say anything at all. Stop choosing to make arguments out of every little thing and going after people with rude remarks, like you did towards NHT in the other thread. You do it fairly regularly. Do not continue making an argument out of this, just improve your behavior.

 

[Ramasugita11]

In the Greater Omniverse

Unless the Sixth Dimension is actually at the top of all multiverses, whatever multiverses there are in the omniverse, the Sixth Dimension would always be their highest and final realm and where they were created and set in motion by super-celestials like Perpetua, but we don't have enough evidence for that.

That's right, the 6th dimension is the highest realm when compared to the creation of Perpetua/the Hand
The other sixth dimensions also exist in the greater omniverse, infinite multiverse within the greater omniverse.

greater multiverse = multiverse = sixth dimension.
It seems like that if we read death metal comics, Chronicler enters the multiverse from the Overvoid

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So your argument is that we cannot treat the Presence as the Light, because the Light is portrayed as a part of a duality and you interpret the art in that scan as defining God as non-dual?

Kuzzo literally made this point, as well as God is one with the Void as that scan is depicting. As for the scan directly, it's literally implying Oneness, the coloring, and the descriptions fit it.

I think that's a pretty weak argument, nothing in the scan actually calls it that, and other sources have concretely defined the Presence as being part of a duality, such as Lucifer (vol 3) which defines Lucifer as the Perfect Dark to the Presence's Perfect Light that he needed to define himself, which fits very naturally with the connection between the Great Darkness and Lucifer.

What does Lucifer have to do with this? Lucifer was made by him to define him. He wasn't the Darkness all the time and he specifically is the Darkness to contrast with the Light that gives God shape and an identity not that he needed it because forms are specifically to interact within Creation. These things aren't necessary for the Presence, he simply did that because Lucifer was always Yahweh’s negative. Lucifer/Yahweh, God/Devil, and Light/Darkness were all planned by him. Even Mazikeen is darkness, of warmth and rot. It still adheres to the Presence created the Light and Lucifer to be his Darkness to his Light. Without Light, God is defined by the residents as Light thus removing Darkness and he loses only his identity.

This also applies strictly to Dans Watter. If we're using that then Spectre Vol.2 should count where it could have stopped the Darkness if he used his power properly.

Snarky is rude. If you had nothing else to reply with, you did not need to say anything at all. Stop choosing to make arguments out of every little thing and going after people with rude remarks, like you did towards NHT in the other thread. You do it fairly regularly. Do not continue making an argument out of this, just improve your behavior.

This one comment and you're saying I'm being rude to people? I understand you're frustrated with how I responded to that but what are you implying I'm like that?

 

[Deagonx]

There's no indication that the other multiverses created by the Supercelestials follows an identical stucture to DC's main multiverse or that they each have a "sixth dimension." It certainly is not the case that each sixth dimension of each multiverse is the same realm.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

That's right, the 6th dimension is the highest realm when compared to the creation of Perpetua/the Hand

Yeah, but she only made the structure of the Multiverse and nothing else.

The other sixth dimensions also exist in the greater omniverse, infinite multiverse within the greater omniverse.

That really doesn't make sense.

greater multiverse = multiverse = sixth dimension.
It seems like that if we read death metal comics, Chronicler enters the multiverse from the Overvoid

There isn't a mention of a “greater Multiverse.”

 

[Elizio33]

That's right, the 6th dimension is the highest realm when compared to the creation of Perpetua/the Hand
The other sixth dimensions also exist in the greater omniverse, infinite multiverse within the greater omniverse.

greater multiverse = multiverse = sixth dimension.
It seems like that if we read death metal comics, Chronicler enters the multiverse from the Overvoid

Rather I was saying that the Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of all multiverses in the Omniverse where super-celestials create multiverses and set them in motion, not that all multiverses share the same structure with multiple sixth dimensions, but there is no evidence to support this.

And the "greater Multiverse" is a term i used to avoid confusion with the greater Omniverse since the term "Omniverse" has been used frequently for recent years and to describe the different iterations of the main DC Multiverse existing separately from each other but still connected in some ways, being part of space aspect of the Divine Continuum/Totality of Existence, which exist within the greater Omniverse outside.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Elizio just closed the thread. This discussion can be made in another thread.

 

[Elizio33]

Although I don't mind the idea that the Presence is superior to the Light for the Crisis Cosmology, I must say that I share the same opinion here as Deagonx. Joshua Williamson's attempts to create a unifying entity for the three god tiers are quite clear and also correlate with Grant's attempts with Monitor-Mind, even Snyder seems to adhere to this idea.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Although I don't mind the idea that the Presence is superior to the Light for the Crisis Cosmology, I must say that I share the same opinion here as Deagonx. Joshua Williamson's attempts to create a unifying entity for the three god tiers are quite clear and also correlate with Grant's attempts with Monitor-Mind, even Snyder seems to adhere to this idea.

I don't think that's the premise because that was only Morrison's idea but just close the thread for less derailment.

 

[Elizio33]

I have closed this thread. Thank you all for your help !