Trigon downgrade, and Nabu and The Batman Who Laughs upgrade

[Transcending]

TRIGON

This is currently stated in Trigon's profile-

likely Multiverse level+ (The Monitor ranked his full power on par with that of Jim Corrigan)

However, the Monitor never ranked his power on par with that of the Spectre. This is what he said-

Above six hundred we are dealing with power users in the supernatural category... above eight hundred we're dealing with either the demon Trigon or the Spectre

I think you can see the issue here. The Monitor really only stated both of their powers are above 800, which just means they are above those with powers below 800. He never stated they have similar power levels or such. So he doesn't need the "likely Multiverse level+" and can be downgraded to Low Multiversal.
NABU

This is very simple. Nabu is for some reason stated to be below Jim Corrigan, but he has actually matched Unbound Spectre(Day of Vengeance: Infinite Crisis Special). So he should be "Multiverse level+, possibly higher" and Jim Corrigan's "Superior to Nabu" should be removed.
BWL

The Batman Who Laughs beat the Monitor and constructed a machine to destroy the Multiverse using him, the astral brain, and himself(Dark Nights: Metal #6). He also tortured him(Justice League #27) and there was nothing the Monitor could do to beat him(Dark Nights: The Batman Who Laughs #1). Additionally, he made a plan to betray, outsmart, and beat Perpetua as BWL(something he succeeded on) and manipulated her into replacing Lex Luthor with him. So he should get Supergenius intelligence and an upgrade in his AP with preparations.

He should also get Physics Manipulation as his cards could rewrite and defy the laws of Physics(Green Arrow #32).

 

[Deagonx]

This is very simple. Nabu is for some reason stated to be below Jim Corrigan, but he has actually matched Unbound Spectre(Day of Vengeance: Infinite Crisis Special). So he should be "Multiverse level+, possibly higher" and Jim Corrigan's "Superior to Nabu" should be removed.

Spectre kills him in this fight. There's also this scan from Pre-Flashpoint Fate in which he says "Even the power of Nabu is no match for the wrath of the Spectre." There's also this scan in which Doctor Fate directly tells Spectre that "[Spectre] is by far the most powerful being in creation."

In the fight referred to, Fate says to Spectre "Why is it taking you so long to kill me, Spectre? You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days, you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself -- where did all that magic you captured actually go?"

Spectre being more powerful than Fate is extremely consistent, and in the fight we are using to contradict that not only does Spectre kill Fate, but Fate tells Spectre that he would've been able to crush Nabu instantly based on the magic power he'd been absorbing."

The evidence, IMO, clearly supports a continued assessment that Spectre > Nabu, and I don't agree with those changes.

So he doesn't need the "likely Multiverse level+" and can be downgraded to Low Multiversal

I agree that Trigon needs a revision, and that this piece of evidence is not good. However, a more comprehensive revamp of Trigon's profile is in order.

So he should get Supergenius intelligence

Sure.

an upgrade in his AP with preparations.

His current profile says "unknown with preparation" which I think is fine. I don't see anything in these scans that clearly justifies a certain tier.

 

[Transcending]

Spectre kills him in this fight.

Nabu purposefully died.

There's also this scan from Pre-Flashpoint Fate in which he says "Even the power of Nabu is no match for the wrath of the Spectre."

That's old, like Pre-Crisis and he was probably referring to Nabu with a host, considering it was Kent with the power of Nabu and not Nabu himself, and this panel-

Also, Spectre called Fate(Kent) relative to him-

Nevertheless, statements don't matter when contradicted by feats, especially much newer ones.

There's also this scan in which Doctor Fate directly tells Spectre that "[Spectre] is by far the most powerful being in creation."

Sure, and Spectre is more powerful than Nabu, I never denied that, just that Nabu is comparable. Moreover, we don't know if "creation" in the context included Nabu, who actually exists outside the Multiverse.

In the fight referred to, Fate says to Spectre "Why is it taking you so long to kill me, Spectre? You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days, you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself -- where did all that magic you captured actually go?"

So an amped Spectre can crush Nabu in an instant, got it. I don't get how it's relevant to their base forms tho.

Spectre being more powerful than Fate is extremely consistent, and in the fight we are using to contradict that not only does Spectre kill Fate

Again, Nabu purposefully died. He came there to let Spectre kill him so that the ninth age of magic ends.

His current profile says "unknown with preparation" which I think is fine. I don't see anything in these scans that clearly justifies a certain tier.

He likely defeated Mar Novu with his preparations.

 

[Transcending]

Also, Spectre called Fate(Kent) relative to him

Wouldn't this actually mean Kent needs an upgrade?

 

[AndrewBennet]

Agreed

 

[LuciferX]

Agree with Trigon downgrade but disagree with nabu upgrade

 

[Transcending]

Agree with Trigon downgrade but disagree with nabu upgrade

Due to reasons Deagon mentioned or something else?

Also what do you guys think about BWL?

 

[LuciferX]

Due to reasons Deagon mentioned or something else?

Much similar. Like SBP doesn't scale to TDK just because he was able to fight against him and It seems like an inconsistent scaling tbh.

Also what do you guys think about BWL?

I agree.

 

[Transcending]

Like SBP doesn't scale to TDK just because he was able to fight against him and It seems like an inconsistent scaling tbh.

I personally don't think it's inconsistent, as SPB was basically jumping from Tier 2 to 1, and not just any tier in 1 but 1-A, all based of a single feat. That's very inconsistent, but Nabu is already 2-A, and we are just adding a "possibly higher".

I agree.

Thank you!

 

[LuciferX]

I personally don't think it's inconsistent, as SPB was basically jumping from Tier 2 to 1, and not just any tier in 1 but 1-A, all based of a single feat. That's very inconsistent, but Nabu is already 2-A, and we are just adding a "possibly higher".

I don't think Nabu is 2-A either. but I still disagree.

 

[Transcending]

Here's the thing though, a Low 1-C being is infinitely superior to a Tier 2 being. So if you can even survive a single hit, or slightly damage a Low 1-C being, you would be Low 1-C.

 

[Deagonx]

Nabu purposefully died.

Okay. This does not change the fact that Spectre killed him and that Nabu's statements directly indicate that Spectre is more powerful.

Also, Spectre called Fate(Kent) relative to him-

"Nearly." This scan supports Spectre > Fate.

Nevertheless, statements don't matter when contradicted by feats, especially much newer ones.

And Spectre killed Fate whilst Fate indicated that his power had been drained by Eclipso which is presented as the only reason he couldn't crush Nabu instantly.

The information we have strongly and consistently supports Spectre > Nabu.

The fact that Nabu intended to die in that battle does not change that. He had no choice in the matter, he couldn't defeat Spectre even if he wanted to.

He likely defeated Mar Novu with his preparations.

I never got the impression that they actually fought, rather than he just captured an extremely weakened Mar Novu who had only just reformed from being the Nil Monitors.

 

[LuciferX]

Here's the thing though, a Low 1-C being is infinitely superior to a Tier 2 being. So if you can even survive a single hit, or slightly damage a Low 1-C being, you would be Low 1-C.

I would say it should scale backwards. If you got hurt by 2-A being, it debunks infinite transcendence, so both are 2-A.
Ha Ha.

 

[Transcending]

Okay. This does not change the fact that Spectre killed him and that Nabu's statements directly indicate that Spectre is more powerful.

It does not change the fact Spectre killed him, but purposefully dieing isn't proof they can't be on the same tier.

Also, you haven't shown Nabu's statements, just Fate's.

Nearly." This scan supports Spectre > Fate.

Sure, and I never disagreed with that. My point is that they are relative, and hence the same tier. Spectre cannot be infinitely superior to Fate and have him relative.

And Spectre killed Fate whilst Fate indicated that his power had been drained by Eclipso which is presented as the only reason he couldn't crush Nabu instantly.

That's not what happened. Before this fight, Spectre was killing all the Lords of Order and Chaos and killed everyone except Nabu. He took their magic. This is an amp to Spectre's usual power, and Eclipso drained this amp.

The information we have strongly and consistently supports Spectre > Nabu.

It also consistently supports Nabu as being relative.

I never got the impression that they actually fought, rather than he just captured an extremely weakened Mar Novu who had only just reformed from being the Nil Monitors

I didn't get the impression he fought either but I did get one that he defeated Mar Novu before getting in a fight, maybe like an ambush. Otherwise, how did Mar Novu come in his possession?

Also, Mar wasn't weakened. He just reformed but that means he wasn't weakened. He was weaker but he fully reformed/healed by the time BWL captured him.

 

[Deagonx]

but purposefully dieing isn't proof they can't be on the same tier.

Spectre defeating Nabu is proof that Spectre is stronger than Nabu. You're trying to imply that Nabu "purposefully dying" negates the scaling of Spectre >> Nabu, but it doesn't. Nabu was okay with dying to end the 9th age of magic, but that doesn't mean the fight was not genuine.

Spectre cannot be infinitely superior to Fate and have him relative.

Spectre isn't infinitely superior to fate. Unbound Spectre is 2-A, and all Fate keys are "2-C, possibly 2-A" with Nabu himself being 2-A. So if your argument is that Nabu should be on the same tier as Unbound Spectre, then that's already the case.

Also, Mar wasn't weakened. He just reformed but that means he wasn't weakened.

BWL directly indicates that Mar is weakened in your scan.

"I know it's a lot for you. After all, you've only just started to re-form after the last multiversal crisis." Indicating that Monitor hasn't even fully reformed yet.

 

[Transcending]

Spectre defeating Nabu is proof that Spectre is stronger than Nabu.

Spectre defeating Nabu when he was trying to die isn't proof. Batman beat Deathstroke when the latter was trying to lose, Batman is not stronger.

You're trying to imply that Nabu "purposefully dying" negates the scaling of Spectre >> Nabu,

That's not what I am saying, I am merely saying your reasoning doesn't prove that.

Nabu was okay with dying to end the 9th age of magic, but that doesn't mean the fight was not genuine.

Nabu wasn't just "okay" with dying. Nabu at the time was there to either get Spectre back into his senses by talking, or die. In neither possibilities did he want to win, in one he tries to get Spectre into his senses(which also implies he was holding back), and in the other he would die. Either way, the fight wasn't genuine.

Nabu winning would have actually been worse for the world, which is why he did not want to.

Spectre isn't infinitely superior to fate. Unbound Spectre is 2-A, and all Fate keys are "2-C, possibly 2-A" with Nabu himself being 2-A. So if your argument is that Nabu should be on the same tier as Unbound Spectre, then that's already the case.

1: Unbound Spectre has a "possibly higher", if the Spectre is indeed higher, he would be infinitely superior, so Nabu should also get that.

2: Jim Corrigan is 2-A and Kent is 2-C. That indicates the Spectre is infinitely superior while Kent survived many of his hits and was stated to be comparable to Spectre.

BWL directly indicates that Mar is weakened in your scan.

"I know it's a lot for you. After all, you've only just started to re-form after the last multiversal crisis." Indicating that Monitor hasn't even fully reformed yet.

Mar Novu himself said he fully reformed-

 

[Transcending]

Also, what do you think about Nabu being able to damage the Sphere of the Gods?

 

[Deagonx]

I'm not going to perpetuate this argument any further, it's just going to lead to another several-page waste of time. Nabu and Spectre are already tiered the same, the various hosts of Fate already have a "possibly 2-A" and literally every piece of evidence being discussed directly confirms Spectre's superiority to Nabu. Suffice it to say, I fully and completely disagree with changing any of the tiers in Fate's profile based on such reasoning.

And for the Mar Novu scan, he never says "fully." I don't know why you think I can't read or that you could get away with lying about a scan.

 

[Transcending]

And for the Mar Novu scan, he never says "fully." I don't know why you think I can't read or that you could get away with lying about a scan.

He didn't say the word "fully", but he pretty clearly indicated that. The sentence-

Yes. I was re-formed

Is very explicit. If he wasn't fully re-formed he would have stated, "Yes. I was nearly re-formed".

 

[Deagonx]

You don't get to editorialize scans and claim it's "explicit" when it isn't. He never said fully. His words do not conflict with what BWL said or the indications that Mar was weakened.

 

[Transcending]

Then BWL never claimed Mar was weakened either, BWL only said Mar started to reform when the Dark Multiverse stuff started. By saying " After all, you've only just started to re-form after the last multiversal crisis" he could be referring to how Mar just finished reforming and didn't get to spend much time after having reformed.

Also, even when Mar wasn't fully reformed, he was still Tier 2, so my ultimate point stands.

 

[Deagonx]

just finished reforming

He literally said "just started to reform." How on earth would we interpreted that as just finishing reforming? Stop editing the scans. You just proposed an interpretation using a word that is literally the exact opposite of what BWL said.

 

[Transcending]

He literally said "just started to reform." How on earth would we interpreted that as just finishing reforming? Stop editing the scans. You just proposed an interpretation using a word that is literally the exact opposite of what BWL said.

You know what, I am not even gonna argue on this point and derail the thread. My point stands, Mar is Tier 2 either way, so BWL would get an upgrade

 

[Deagonx]

You know what, I am not even gonna argue on this point and derail the thread.

You can paint is as "avoiding derailing" to save face, but the fact is you just tried to suggest that BWLs meaning was literally the opposite word of what he actually said.

My point stands, Mar is Tier 2 either way, so BWL would get an upgrade

How do we know he is Tier 2 when weakened?

 

[Transcending]

How do we know he is Tier 2 when weakened?

Mar Novu is Tier 2 on the universe, while Monitors are 4-B. That's a difference of infinity, and subtracting the finite power of 4-Bs from infinity still gives you infinity.

 

[Deagonx]

Mar Novu is Tier 2 on the universe

When weakened? Or normally?

while Monitors are 4-B. That's a difference of infinity, and subtracting the finite power of 4-Bs from infinity still gives you infinity.

There weren't an infinite amount of Monitor's in the first place, so this objection is moot. By that logic Monitor can't be 2-A because 4-B * a finite number is not infinity.

 

[Transcending]

When weakened? Or normally?

Normally

There weren't an infinite amount of Monitor's in the first place

Exactly, and this supports my point. Since Mar is Tier 2, and the Monitors are 4-B, that means each of them have powers finite in comparison to Mar. And since only a finite number of Monitors exist, the totality of their powers is also finite. Mar has more than infinite power in respective to their totality. Infinity-Finite=Infinity so he would still be Tier 2.

 

[Deagonx]

Exactly, and this supports my point. Since Mar is Tier 2, and the Monitors are 4-B, that means each of them have powers finite in comparison to Mar. And since only a finite number of Monitors exist, the totality of their powers is also finite. Mar has more than infinite power in respective to their totality. Infinity-Finite=Infinity so he would still be Tier 2.

Or his power has nothing to do with subtracting the individual power of specific Monitors and we have literally no reason to interpret it that way.

 

[Transcending]

Or his power has nothing to do with subtracting the individual power of specific Monitors and we have literally no reason to interpret it that way.

How? The Monitor only got weakened by the subtraction of the Nil Monitors. If the Nil Monitors are finite in power, they wouldn't affect his infinite power. He would retain the same tier, and only be infinitesimally weakened.

 

[Deagonx]

The Monitor only got weakened by the subtraction of the Nil Monitors. If the Nil Monitors are finite in power, they wouldn't affect his infinite power.

You just proved my point. How did he get "weakened by the substraction of the Nil Monitors" if they also can't affect his infinite power? Your logic doesn't make sense. We have no reason to interpret his weakened state as being due to the "subtraction of Monitors" or think of his power as being an even division amongst the various Nil Monitors, nor to think that if he has all of the Monitors that he must have full power. You're making things up post-hoc to justify your pre-determined conclusion.

 

[Transcending]

You just proved my point. How did he get "weakened by the substraction of the Nil Monitors" if they also can't affect his infinite power? Your logic doesn't make sense.

He got weakened on an infinitesimal scale, he didn't really get weakened. This is similar to how Light got weakened by COIE, despite being many levels of infinities above the Multiverse.

Your logic doesn't make sense. We have no reason to interpret his weakened state as being due to the "subtraction of Monitors" or think of his power as being an even division amongst the various Nil Monitors, nor to think that if he has all of the Monitors that he must have full power. You're making things up post-hoc to justify your pre-determined conclusion

Then how exactly are you proposing his powers decreased?

 

[Deagonx]

He got weakened on an infinitesimal scale, he didn't really get weakened

Except there's literally no indication for any of this, and it contradicts the fact that he was portrayed and described as weakened. You're trying to claim that it both was weakened and wasn't at the same time.

This is similar to how Light got weakened by COIE, despite being many levels of infinities above the Multiverse.

Except the Light's weakening wasn't infinitesimal.

Then how exactly are you proposing his powers decreased?

A description is not given. I'm not going to guess based on no evidence.

 

[Transcending]

Except there's literally no indication for any of this, and it contradicts the fact that he was portrayed and described as weakened. You're trying to claim that it both

I am not claiming he wasn't weakened, I am claiming he was infinitesimally weakened. If he got seriously weakened, either he's not Tier 2, or the Monitors are Tier 2.

Except the Light's weakening wasn't infinitesimal

Are you saying Light isn't many levels of infinities above the Multiverse?

A description is not given. I'm not going to guess based on no evidence.

I will say this one last time, if you are gonna repeat your points again, I am not gonna bother responding to you.

The only indication of the Monitor being weakened is him getting fragmented into Nil Monitors. That's all you have presented, and that's all there is to my knowledge. There's no indication something else weakened him, and to assume so would be just that, assuming.

So with that established, the Monitor could only have been weakened as much as the totality of the powers of the Monitors he was splitted into. If we split the number 10000 into 1000 and a 100, the value of the "new 10000" would be (10000-(1000+100)), that is, 8900. Similarly, we subtract the totality of the powers of the Monitors from normal Mar Novu to get the value of his power while weakened.

The Monitors are 4-B, and a finite number of them exists. So the totality of all their powers would also be finite, as 4-B itself is finite. Mar Novu on the other hand, is Tier 2. That's uncountably(uncountable infinity) above finity. So, we subtract finity from uncountable infinity, and this returns us uncountable infinity as any finite number subtracted from infinity returns infinity.

So the Monitor retains Tier 2. To be less than Tier 2, he had to have been weakened by an uncountably infinite amount, which is not possible when a finite number of Nil Monitors exist and each has a finite power.

That is all and any reasonable person can see how simple this is.

 

[Deagonx]

I am claiming he was infinitesimally weakened

1) If the weakening was not actually meaningful, we wouldn't have seen indications of it.

2) There's literally no evidence for that.

Are you saying Light isn't many levels of infinities above the Multiverse?

Why is it that every time you start a sentence with "are you saying" you go on to describe a position that I have not remotely claimed or implied? I am saying the Light's weakening was not insignificant.

I will say this one last time, if you are gonna repeat your points again, I am not gonna bother responding to you.

I do not particularly care whether or not you respond to me. I will repeat my points so long as they continue being relevant.

So with that established, the Monitor could only have been weakened as much as the totality of the powers of the Monitors he was splitted into.

Nope, total assumption. There is no indication of this whatsoever in the comic.

To be less than Tier 2, he had to have been weakened by an uncountably infinite amount, which is not possible when a finite number of Nil Monitors exist and each has a finite power.

Except there's no indication that his power reduction was represented by subtracting the powers of individual monitors.

You need evidence, not head canon.

 

[Transcending]

1) If the weakening was not actually meaningful, we wouldn't have seen indications of it.

There was no indication of it, the Monitor wasn't even stated to be weakened, just reformed.

Why is it that every time you start a sentence with "are you saying" you go on to describe a position that I have not remotely claimed or implied? I am saying the Light's weakening was not insignificant.

You did imply it. If Light is many levels of infinity above the Multiverse, it can only be weakened above an infinitesimal degree if it itself was harmed at full. Attacking something it's qualitatively above would only weaken it insignificantly.

 

[Deagonx]

There was no indication of it, the Monitor wasn't even stated to be weakened, just reformed.

And his recent and unfinished reformation was used as an indication of his weakening.

You did imply it. If Light is many levels of infinity above the Multiverse, it can only be weakened above an infinitesimal degree if it itself was harmed at full. Attacking something it's qualitatively above would only weaken it insignificantly.

And yet, that's not what happened, so your headcanon theory about how these weakenings work is clearly and demonstrably wrong.

 

[Transcending]

And his recent and unfinished reformation was used as an indication of his weakening.

When? The word "weakened" was never once used, especially not to as significant of a degree as you claim.

And yet, that's not what happened, so your headcanon theory about how these weakenings work is clearly and demonstrably wrong.

How exactly do we know that is not what happened? As for my "headcanon weakenings", I will wait for those actually good with the Tiering System to comment.

 

[Deagonx]

When? The word "weakened" was never once used, especially not to as significant of a degree as you claim.

BWL said "this must be a lot for you, after all you've only just started reforming after the last multiversal crisis" If it's "a lot" for him on account of his incomplete reformation, this implies that he is weakened.

How exactly do we know that is not what happened?

Because that event shifted the balance of power between the Light and the Dark.

There's also no evidence of your theory.

 

[Transcending]

BWL said "this must be a lot for you, after all you've only just started reforming after the last multiversal crisis" If it's "a lot" for him on account of his incomplete reformation, this implies that he is weakened.

Not necessarily. Consider this analogy-

Getting this project must be a lot for you, after all, you just finished a large homework

I am not physically weaker here, I am mentally being affected. Similarly, this could be a reference to the Monitor's mentality being affected.

Because that event shifted the balance of power between the Light and the Dark.

If that's the case, the Anti-Monitor must have done a lot more damage. COIE did affect the Source Wall and a bit more, maybe this has something to do with that.

The damage a structure many levels of infinity above another structure, gets when the second structure gets damaged, is infinitesimal. That much even Ultima has confirmed.

 

[Deagonx]

I am not physically weaker here, I am mentally being affected. Similarly, this could be a reference to the Monitor's mentality being affected.

The possibility of it being something does not negate the fact that he is implied to be affected and is directly stated to not be finished reforming yet. The circumstances are far too vague to assign tier 2. The "Unknown with prep" is sufficient for such a case.

If that's the case, the Anti-Monitor must have done a lot more damage.

Or your concept of how it works is fundamentally flawed. Stop writing headcanon.