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That doesn't give "composite everyone" though.The Prince of Counters said:
Doesn't Adam copy through actual hax? Which wouldn't make him as skilled.
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Skill Wars: Return of the Skill List
- Thread starter BakiHanma18
- Start date
Doesn't Adam copy through actual hax? Which wouldn't make him as skilled.
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Whenever the narrative gives each combatant a certain strength, yes it does. Adam has the better copying capabilities but Sasaki is ultimately more skilled than him. That's the enitre point of Sasaki's character, Evolution and skill. Adam's was copying and his undying will, Lu Bu's was his resilience and his god like strength. Sasaki is more skilled than the both of them.
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No it doesn't though. 3 is greater than 1 and 2. But it doesn't mean it is greater than several 2's combined. Giving everyone a certain strength doesn't mean you can scale him above everyone combined, it means you can scale him above each individually.
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Which is what I'm saying. He's more skilled than Adam, he's more skilled than Lu Bu. I'm not saying he's more skilled than Adam and Lu Bu combined, he scales above them in the same way Mushashi scales above the other Servants.
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"if Adam can be considered the Ultimate Copier than Sasaki can be considered the ultimate scanner." implying that Thousand Image Defense is equal or greater to Eyes of The Lord
I'm sorry but what? Brun's statement most definitely does not support that notion. If Lu Bu is considered the strongest human and Usain Bolt is called the fastest human, it just means that they are the best in their respective areas of expertise. Same with Adam and Kojiro.
Adam's whole schtick is copying stuff that can't be copied by humans and then doing it better than the gods themselves. Kojiro's is his absurd ability to take in all the information around him which he then uses to better himself. Yes he can copy someone's techniques but it is nowhere to the extent of Adam and he doesn't have the feats to back up this supposed narrative of being the most skilled when all he can do is read Poseidon's moves but not perform them (you can argue he didn't have a trident but Adam actually replicates the force of Zeus' attacks through skill amd then ramps it up even against Adamas which was a huge amp to Zeus' physicals). Even the techniques Kojiro copied from the Sword Saints were only as good as the Sword Saints themselves and only "improved" the techs when he combined them (which isn't improving the actual tech like Adam does but stacking their pros together).
Tl;dr. Both take in info but Adam = quality, Sasaki = quantity aka Kojiro does not scale in skill to Adam.
I'm sorry but what? Brun's statement most definitely does not support that notion. If Lu Bu is considered the strongest human and Usain Bolt is called the fastest human, it just means that they are the best in their respective areas of expertise. Same with Adam and Kojiro.
Adam's whole schtick is copying stuff that can't be copied by humans and then doing it better than the gods themselves. Kojiro's is his absurd ability to take in all the information around him which he then uses to better himself. Yes he can copy someone's techniques but it is nowhere to the extent of Adam and he doesn't have the feats to back up this supposed narrative of being the most skilled when all he can do is read Poseidon's moves but not perform them (you can argue he didn't have a trident but Adam actually replicates the force of Zeus' attacks through skill amd then ramps it up even against Adamas which was a huge amp to Zeus' physicals). Even the techniques Kojiro copied from the Sword Saints were only as good as the Sword Saints themselves and only "improved" the techs when he combined them (which isn't improving the actual tech like Adam does but stacking their pros together).
Tl;dr. Both take in info but Adam = quality, Sasaki = quantity aka Kojiro does not scale in skill to Adam.
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Yes it means you cannot scale him to the feats of both of those guys. It's either one or the other.The Prince of Counters said:
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Okay, mate you seem to be confused on what skill I'm actually referring to. Sasaki dosen't have as good of a copying ability as Adam does but Sasaki absolutely 100% scales above Adam in terms of sheer skill not their abilities to copy other abilities. Adam obviously has the better copying abilities, that much is known. But Sasaki absolutely destroys Adam when it comes to straight up combat, which is where you seem to be entirely lost. The two abilities are directly compared by Brun herself, Sasaki's Prediction is on the same level as Adam's copying abilities, I.E both are the very top of what the abilities are.
Let me stop you right there, because Thousand Image Defense has nothing to do with his copying, Sasaki's copying is a different ability and even then I wouldn't call it an ability. He's just remembering all of the times he's clashed against the various swordsman and combining them. Again, what I'm talking about here is sheer Combat skill, not comparing the two's abilities to copy shit. Sasaki has several statements of his skill surpassing that of humanity's meanwhile Adam has none. The notion that Sasaki doesn't scale above Adam in terms of Combat skill is simply asinine and ignores several statements and ignores the narrative context of the story.
@Earl
Your logic makes zero sense, Lu Bu isn't nearly as skilled as Sasaki and neither is Adam. It's not one or the other, he's more skilled than each of them individually. That's the equivalent of me saying that Musashi doesn't scale to the feats of the other Servants whenever she does.
Let me stop you right there, because Thousand Image Defense has nothing to do with his copying, Sasaki's copying is a different ability and even then I wouldn't call it an ability. He's just remembering all of the times he's clashed against the various swordsman and combining them. Again, what I'm talking about here is sheer Combat skill, not comparing the two's abilities to copy shit. Sasaki has several statements of his skill surpassing that of humanity's meanwhile Adam has none. The notion that Sasaki doesn't scale above Adam in terms of Combat skill is simply asinine and ignores several statements and ignores the narrative context of the story.
@Earl
Your logic makes zero sense, Lu Bu isn't nearly as skilled as Sasaki and neither is Adam. It's not one or the other, he's more skilled than each of them individually. That's the equivalent of me saying that Musashi doesn't scale to the feats of the other Servants whenever she does.
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Yes i am still iffy on why Musashi scales to the whole verse. But being the most skilled doesn't mean you're more skilled than everyone combined.
A sword master is more skilled than a jiujitsu and a kenpo practicioner separate. If 1 dude were to learn both Jiujitsu and kenpo it doesn't mean the sword master would still be more skilled. That's why Sasaki just scales above the most skilled dude, not taking every skill feat you can find and giving them as Sasaki feats because he scales above. I have good reasons for why i say Hayato's feat scale as a composite above the verse.
A sword master is more skilled than a jiujitsu and a kenpo practicioner separate. If 1 dude were to learn both Jiujitsu and kenpo it doesn't mean the sword master would still be more skilled. That's why Sasaki just scales above the most skilled dude, not taking every skill feat you can find and giving them as Sasaki feats because he scales above. I have good reasons for why i say Hayato's feat scale as a composite above the verse.
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Adam would bully Kojiro no diff in a fight. The guy who out does the top gods at everything they can do >>>>>> the guy who is limited to humanity in terms of skill.
Thousamd Image Defense does have to do with his scanning, it scompletely based off of his scanning. He reads what the opponent does and then simulates it in his mind. It isn't the scanning itself (something I never said but you seem to think) but it is a direct product of the scanning and is the pinnacle of what Kojiro can do with it.
Surpassing humanity means jack when the gods have the same statements and Adam takes a dump on them in terms of skill. Literally the one guy who is definitively and undeniably above Poseidon got beat by Adam whereas Kojiro was getting clapped by a casual Poseidon and would have died instantly had Poseidon been more serious at the start. Narrative, another thing that means jack when Kojiro doesn't have the feats nor statements to put him above Adam. As a matter of fact, its the exact opposite with Adam having the feats, statements and narrative that put him above Kojiro.
Thousamd Image Defense does have to do with his scanning, it scompletely based off of his scanning. He reads what the opponent does and then simulates it in his mind. It isn't the scanning itself (something I never said but you seem to think) but it is a direct product of the scanning and is the pinnacle of what Kojiro can do with it.
Surpassing humanity means jack when the gods have the same statements and Adam takes a dump on them in terms of skill. Literally the one guy who is definitively and undeniably above Poseidon got beat by Adam whereas Kojiro was getting clapped by a casual Poseidon and would have died instantly had Poseidon been more serious at the start. Narrative, another thing that means jack when Kojiro doesn't have the feats nor statements to put him above Adam. As a matter of fact, its the exact opposite with Adam having the feats, statements and narrative that put him above Kojiro.
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First issue with your first argument is that your implying that Sasaki can only do what's limited to humanity, that's blatantly false whenever we have direct statements that Sasaki far surpasses humanity and steps into the Realms of Gods himself. And if we're playing that game Poseidon was objectively the more skilled god between him and Zeus, Zeus was a Berserker who's style of fighting was more similar to that of a brawler.
Thousand Image Defense has nothing to do with Sasaki's ability to copy, that's something of it's own entirely. His copying has nothing to do with Prediction nor does it have to do with scanning. It isn't a side effect either, this is neither stated nor is it implied. It's from his sheer experience in having to deal with said styles over the years while he was alive. Again, nothing to do with any aspect of Thousand Image Defense.
That's a case by case basis, the Gods aren't always as skilled as Humans and even if we do go that route Poseidon was a lot more skilled than Zeus, as he was even able to predict Sasaki's reactions despite Sasaki's Thousand Image Defense. Zeus isn't undoubtedly above Poseidon, Poseidon had several advantages over his younger brother, skill, speed, agility etc. The only thing Zeus would take the cake in would be AP and durability, otherwise Poseidon is actually the one above Zeus. Context matters there, Sasaki was getting clapped because of Poseidon's overwhelming speed advantage, Adam didn't have to deal with such an opponent, Zeus was a lot slower and more of a linear fighter as opposed to Poseidon. Adam isn't stated to be unparalleled in skill, Sasaki is. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that Sasaki is more skilled than Adam.
Thousand Image Defense has nothing to do with Sasaki's ability to copy, that's something of it's own entirely. His copying has nothing to do with Prediction nor does it have to do with scanning. It isn't a side effect either, this is neither stated nor is it implied. It's from his sheer experience in having to deal with said styles over the years while he was alive. Again, nothing to do with any aspect of Thousand Image Defense.
That's a case by case basis, the Gods aren't always as skilled as Humans and even if we do go that route Poseidon was a lot more skilled than Zeus, as he was even able to predict Sasaki's reactions despite Sasaki's Thousand Image Defense. Zeus isn't undoubtedly above Poseidon, Poseidon had several advantages over his younger brother, skill, speed, agility etc. The only thing Zeus would take the cake in would be AP and durability, otherwise Poseidon is actually the one above Zeus. Context matters there, Sasaki was getting clapped because of Poseidon's overwhelming speed advantage, Adam didn't have to deal with such an opponent, Zeus was a lot slower and more of a linear fighter as opposed to Poseidon. Adam isn't stated to be unparalleled in skill, Sasaki is. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that Sasaki is more skilled than Adam.
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Also I just read the comments above, everyone's said it already but Yagyu ain't number 1.
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Mind elaborating?
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Rules, a lot of his stuff is nonsensical ( Which was decided a few threads ago, we all came to the mutual agreement that we wouldn't be counting transcending & conceptual statements.) I myself don't necessarily agree with Ikki and Edel, matter of fact I think everyone in 2nd place is better than them.
Really it all comes down to how you present your argument, I'd say go back and find quantifiable feats for Yagyu and then post em, I can't say for sure that the others are gonna agree with it but I always like to keep an open mind about things like that. It's just that everyone in the top 5 already have feats on that caliber, several of which are actually shown. Just try again but make sure to go into more depth and such and you might have a shot.
Really it all comes down to how you present your argument, I'd say go back and find quantifiable feats for Yagyu and then post em, I can't say for sure that the others are gonna agree with it but I always like to keep an open mind about things like that. It's just that everyone in the top 5 already have feats on that caliber, several of which are actually shown. Just try again but make sure to go into more depth and such and you might have a shot.
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Btw for the record i do believe Yagyu should be the one here instead of Musashi, I brought it up awhile ago but that was shot down for whatever reason.
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The rules are for conceptual stuff, which he doesn't have, and he transcends nothing.
Except that I and Paul have done so repeatedly for a decent while now. There isn't much more depth to go into when Nasu says "this guy can fight gods on even ground" with little to no further explaination, and from what I can tell the stuff that's comparable to the top 5 peeps is both entirely supporting feats and stuff that Yagyu is literally infinitely above.
Except that I and Paul have done so repeatedly for a decent while now. There isn't much more depth to go into when Nasu says "this guy can fight gods on even ground" with little to no further explaination, and from what I can tell the stuff that's comparable to the top 5 peeps is both entirely supporting feats and stuff that Yagyu is literally infinitely above.
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His chain scaling would consist of such however, and the infinite skill is another thing that isn't looked upon greatly here.
I saw and I read them, however I noticed no actual scans were given. The Budda stuff is also iffy at best due to the enitre 2-A thing, of course unless that's in reference to his 6-C key in which case Lancer would also be 6-C so that doesn't speak a lot for that feat either. So it's either unusable or a pretty tame feat.
And the army thing is something even the lower tiers can do, especially people like Karna who have an incredible amount of AoE with their attacks so taking care of armies would be a relatively easy task. As for Okada, wasn't Yagyu the one that pointed out a flaw in his copying? From what I recall someone posted a scan (Creaturemaster I believe. ) along the lines of Yagyu stating that Okada simply borrows the opponents moves rather than outright mastering them. Feel free to correct me if I've been misinformed.
I saw and I read them, however I noticed no actual scans were given. The Budda stuff is also iffy at best due to the enitre 2-A thing, of course unless that's in reference to his 6-C key in which case Lancer would also be 6-C so that doesn't speak a lot for that feat either. So it's either unusable or a pretty tame feat.
And the army thing is something even the lower tiers can do, especially people like Karna who have an incredible amount of AoE with their attacks so taking care of armies would be a relatively easy task. As for Okada, wasn't Yagyu the one that pointed out a flaw in his copying? From what I recall someone posted a scan (Creaturemaster I believe. ) along the lines of Yagyu stating that Okada simply borrows the opponents moves rather than outright mastering them. Feel free to correct me if I've been misinformed.
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The rules say nothing about infinite skill. His scaling chain also has no transcendences in the conventional sense, since basically everyone who's been discussed that he upscales from is already above anything that any human could possibly achieve.
The scans are given on the pages themselves and I myself have none. That is in relation to the actual Buddha, aka 2-A Saver, yes. Nothing about it says that it's unusable according to the rules in the OP.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of the army statements. That was saying that Karna stomps people who stomp people who stomp people who can singlehandedly battle small armies through martial ability alone. This was living Karna as well, so he didn't have AoE he does as a servant. I don't remember anything like that, but Okada's page across multiple wikis says otherwise from what I remember.
The scans are given on the pages themselves and I myself have none. That is in relation to the actual Buddha, aka 2-A Saver, yes. Nothing about it says that it's unusable according to the rules in the OP.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of the army statements. That was saying that Karna stomps people who stomp people who stomp people who can singlehandedly battle small armies through martial ability alone. This was living Karna as well, so he didn't have AoE he does as a servant. I don't remember anything like that, but Okada's page across multiple wikis says otherwise from what I remember.
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So two things for now (good lord I missed a lot)
I genuinely don't believe that Hozoin can harm 2-As. It says his spearmanship has reached the gods and buddhas. I interpreted that as meaning he has become as skilled as the gods. The gods in Nasuverse would scale to his skill feats, not the other way around (since the gods don't really have skill feats so far.)
Also yes, Musashi and Kojirou outskill the verse concurrently, but only by the very end of Shimosa.
I genuinely don't believe that Hozoin can harm 2-As. It says his spearmanship has reached the gods and buddhas. I interpreted that as meaning he has become as skilled as the gods. The gods in Nasuverse would scale to his skill feats, not the other way around (since the gods don't really have skill feats so far.)
Also yes, Musashi and Kojirou outskill the verse concurrently, but only by the very end of Shimosa.
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I don't really have much to say on this, although everyone i talk to on the matter says that by reaching the realm of gods he can harm them. Either interpretation is impressive considering what gods are.
Pretty sure every Sword Saint outskills literally everyone else by virtue of being a Sword Saint. Musashi likely only had issues against Lancer Purgatario, aka amped Hozion, was due to his regen and added abilities, which would've been too much for her if he had his normal skill. Okada is currently far below any Sword Saint, only having the potential to become one should he start caring.
Pretty sure every Sword Saint outskills literally everyone else by virtue of being a Sword Saint. Musashi likely only had issues against Lancer Purgatario, aka amped Hozion, was due to his regen and added abilities, which would've been too much for her if he had his normal skill. Okada is currently far below any Sword Saint, only having the potential to become one should he start caring.
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Harming them is silly because it's uber-contradicted by his actual showings and state of being. He has reached the skill of the Buddha (super impressive, btw, I can go into more detail on that), but not transcendence of the 3rd dimension or anything like that.
That actually shows an impressive level of improvement speed for Musashi, because she goes from being so far beneath Hozoin that she's nearly moved to tears by the perfection of his technique, and says he would eviscerate her in an instant with just one of his stances, to fighting a strength-amped version of him.
That actually shows an impressive level of improvement speed for Musashi, because she goes from being so far beneath Hozoin that she's nearly moved to tears by the perfection of his technique, and says he would eviscerate her in an instant with just one of his stances, to fighting a strength-amped version of him.
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- Thread starter
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I can confirm that Sasaki his head over heels above everything in RoR in terms of pure skill. He isn't considered traditionally strong or fast, but the man in life could already surpass sword saint in his verse within months. He then trains 400 years after his death and is able to combat and defeat a god vastly superior to him in every stat. His skill, while bordering on PIS, is raw, pure, unadulterated skill
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Also Baki you can go ahead and hakai Tasky like we decided.
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I mean everyone likes to say that, but all who are currently in second are there cus they've been outskilled by Ikki. Everyone in 2nd has tried their hand against him.The Prince of Counters said:
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Anyway onto Sasaki RoR @Prince
That's not really a skill feat, many people base their style around animals, including people in Kenichi. Except they have taken it to a greater extent. And that guy is not really harder to predict. Besides even fodder disciples can predict moves of animals.
The speed advantage is not that great considering he clashed with each of them at the same time. And besides,there are these.
Sakaki has a feat like that with his glass of beer, nothing that impressive, and not even combat applicable.
Same as above. Nothing that hard.
That's not even a feat, he wasn't really "blocking them for a short amount of time" he blocked some, not all. That is hard specifically cus you cannot block all.
Just skill scaling above people individually.
Supermasters can do that too. Many of them can.
That many thousand times ahead seems like a basic hyperbole from spectators. I mean first it is many thousand times, then he sees himself die only 18 times so yeah. As for prediction, kenichi can do that too (what he's seeing are predictions btw, miu wasn't attacking him yet).
Where does that say "several steps ahead"?
Read above, even disciples can do that. But then again, using the inner eye, they can see how someone would have died dozens of times from an attack.
Kenichi does a similar thing,though he reads the opponents heart, emotions (true self), thoughts, flow, rythym, fingerprints that would activate a sensor. You get the point, rather than analyzing the surroundings, he analyzes the opponent.
Surpassing humanity, isn't a feat in and of itself, but hayato is also Superhuman class.
That's not really a skill feat, many people base their style around animals, including people in Kenichi. Except they have taken it to a greater extent. And that guy is not really harder to predict. Besides even fodder disciples can predict moves of animals.
The speed advantage is not that great considering he clashed with each of them at the same time. And besides,there are these.
Sakaki has a feat like that with his glass of beer, nothing that impressive, and not even combat applicable.
Same as above. Nothing that hard.
That's not even a feat, he wasn't really "blocking them for a short amount of time" he blocked some, not all. That is hard specifically cus you cannot block all.
Just skill scaling above people individually.
Supermasters can do that too. Many of them can.
- Thousand image defense
That many thousand times ahead seems like a basic hyperbole from spectators. I mean first it is many thousand times, then he sees himself die only 18 times so yeah. As for prediction, kenichi can do that too (what he's seeing are predictions btw, miu wasn't attacking him yet).
Where does that say "several steps ahead"?
Read above, even disciples can do that. But then again, using the inner eye, they can see how someone would have died dozens of times from an attack.
Kenichi does a similar thing,though he reads the opponents heart, emotions (true self), thoughts, flow, rythym, fingerprints that would activate a sensor. You get the point, rather than analyzing the surroundings, he analyzes the opponent.
Surpassing humanity, isn't a feat in and of itself, but hayato is also Superhuman class.
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I mean everyone likes to say that, but all who are currently in second are there cus they've been outskilled by Ikki. Everyone in 2nd has tried their hand against him.
What does he have, again?
What does he have, again?
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Don't really feel like mentioning them now, but if anyone wants to try their hand against Ikki....again, go ahead and give your feats.
Or just give me your feats and i will drop your fav character like flies with Hayato.
Or just give me your feats and i will drop your fav character like flies with Hayato.
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You should just say Ikki's feats already instead of keeping asking for the feats of the other 2nd place characters, which you already know most of since they've been repeteadly mentioned in this or in the past threads.
You should focus on giving Ikki's feats, not asking for feats from other characters. After all, we're talking mainly about Ikki.
You should focus on giving Ikki's feats, not asking for feats from other characters. After all, we're talking mainly about Ikki.
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You could also very easily just go back and copy paste the stuff you have, you know? Is only 4 threads, I could easily find First Witch's stuff about Sion.
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Yep, those are Ikki's feats. Not all, but most of them.KGiffoni said:
As for the other people's feats. Could you like....find where they are and link it?
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Because's he's not getting second spot, again.Firephoenixearl said:
The stuff he has, as far as I can care to see, is not even getting past Pray.
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Let me decide on whether he's getting a spot or not. Just give me the feats of the 2nd spot dudes
R of Yujiro's feats/upscaling i did so let me find it
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Uuuuh... how would get on the level of the 2nd spot people if he's not even comparable to someone that is below them?Firephoenixearl said:
Unless that means Pray should be further above and is just there because Witch hasn't cared to try.
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Earl it doesn't work like that, you do not have the ability to give someone a spot, that's something we all have to mutually agree to, nobody has made nor is anyone going to make you the sole authority of this thread.
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Cus i don't wanna waste time debating those above, but if you really want to then sure. Link me where Pray's feats are.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
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I will argue for that guy. That was the point of "let me decide".The Prince of Counters said:
Also i edited my post above, i answered thousand image defense too.
