Skill Wars: Return of the Skill List

[Hl3_or_bust]

That rule never existed considering about half of the list, if i'm being honest

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>So skilled it transcended time and space

Im amazed this was brought up when we specifically do not count these. Might as well bring the masada dude here who's above the concept of skill then.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Specifically do not count what exactly? It feels like the rules are just being shifted around the #1 spot to appease Daddy Earl to me.

Even without that, the supporting feats are still ludicrously above anything Ikki or Edel have ever done.

 

[KGiffoni]

That rule never existed considering about half of the list, if i'm being honest

I think the rule comes as something like this:

You can have superhuman skill, but in ways it's an extremely amplified and exaggerated version of something that is realistic. By instance, we don't count in "transcending space-time with skill" because it has no signs of realism.

But, by instance, if character y can perfectly predict the movements of the opponent via their breathing pattern, stance, center of gravity, point of view, muscle tension, etc etc it's allowed because it's an highly amplified version of the not-perfect analytical prediction many martial artists in real life can develop after years of fighting experience.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Im not even the one making the rules m8.

Supporting feats? Hmm lemme see:

• Technique which allows 6-C's to harm 2-A's....yes i can see the legitness.

• Same as above.

• Im not even sure why this is a skill feat at all nor why it is impressive. He's stated to be good and that he can deal with bad match-ups...so? That's average at best.

• As a very old 6-C he beat a 6-C? Why's that so much of a feat? Old men being top tier is nothing new.

• Not even a feat.

• Mastery of each depends from verse to verse. Simply saying "mastered" is not a good feat

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

>we don't count it because it isn't realistic

Ok so remove everyone on the list then.

Because none of them have even remotely realistic feats. The prediction example is so ludicrously above what is possible by a normal human that it straight up isn't possible.

 

[KGiffoni]

You can have superhuman skill, but in ways it's an extremely amplified and exaggerated version of something that is realistic.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Im not even the one making the rules m8.

Supporting feats? Hmm lemme see:

It feels like it considering how the rules don't seem to apply to Ikki and Edelweiss from what I can tell.

• your sarcasm doesn't make the feat not exist anymore. Try again
• ^
• reread the feat please. Strength and weakness not mattering is very much not what you have downplayed it to be
• boi. Li was literally still a human at the time. He wasn't a servant when he fought Red Hare
• ok and what exactly does that mean? Its still support
• what about Jax then? He was apparently high on the list solely for having mastered every weapon as far as I am aware

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Not because of realism. Because of logic. It's easy to see the logic in things like prediction, or analysis even if it's exaggerated as ****. But the logic in "i swung a sword for 100 years and now i am unbound by the flow of time" is....im pretty sure you can see the difference.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

except that it objectively isn't realistic

you can try and negate your own point as much as you want, but you're still shooting yourself in the foot

 

[YungManzi]

>So skilled it transcended time and space

As I said in the other Ikki thread, some statements which can be considered nonsense are heralded as having more validity than other similar ones for whatever reason.

I don't really see how transcending space and time translate to being more skilled than someone. And the other stuff mentioned just aren't good enough to get a number 1 spot imo.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Not because of realism. Because of logic. It's easy to see the logic in things like prediction, or analysis even if it's exaggerated as ****. But the logic in "i swung a sword for 100 years and now i am unbound by the flow of time" is....im pretty sure you can see the difference.

because having a bad childhood making you one of the strongest people in your verse is totally logical

totally

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Bad childhood making you one of the strongest people in your verse

>Transcending space and time with skill

I mean i know you're literally not trying with these comparisons but come on.

• It happened, it's just stupid. Until explained.

• Strength and weaknesses are literally "good matchup" "bad matchup". It just means he can deal with bad matchups. But if you can't do that, you're not even a martial artist, let alone one of the top 5 in fiction.

• And what feats does he have fighting him?

• It means it's not a feat, it's not supporting feat if it's not a feat at all.

• He has feats with those weapons i think. Im not sure.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

when did i say that the transcending space and time was logical? I have literally said that it isn't logical before, so maybe come back to reality

• the explanation in there and that's your opinion
• that is not what it is saying and you know it
• what?
• except it is a feat?

 

[KGiffoni]

except that it objectively isn't realistic
you can try and negate your own point as much as you want, but you're still shooting yourself in the foot

No, that's not what i'm saying. Of course, 99% of the feats done by anyone in the top 5 is obviously not realistic. But they're mostly amplified/exaggerated versions of something that is realistic, such as the example i provided. See the difference? One is realistic, the other one is an extremely exaggerated/amplified version of the first one, mantaining logic but not realism.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

an exaggerated version of something realistic is almost always not realistic in any way, look at literally anything that happens in Baki for a good example

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I never said you said it is logical did i? You compared it to something that is actually logical though. Like bad childhood making you strong.

• Where? What is the explanation for him hurting beings he literally shouldn't be able to comprehend with skill?

• Explain what it is then.

• How did he beat him? What techniques did he use?

• You mean the "is better than x"? No it's called "scaling". If i have X>Y>Z>A>B>C doesn't mean any of them have a feat, it just means X scales above them.

 

[KGiffoni]

One is realistic, the other one is an extremely exaggerated/amplified version of the first one, mantaining logic but not realism.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Some supporting feats for each of the people mentioned

• Hozoin has been said to be one with the spear, having reached a level beyond maximum human potential with it.

• Karna is not only a master with the spear like Hozoin, he is also a master of the bow, and many other weapons to an even greater extent. He is the most skilled of his brothers by far, and managed to not only beat their armies, but also them during the war when he was alive, without much difficulty, the only one he didn't beat was Arjuna, and that's because his wheel got stuck, and he was tricked by the gods, and didn't want to kill him

• Hassan's a master swordsman even as an assassin, easily dispatching any other Hassan who he feels steps out of line

• Red Hare, as you may know, has mastered every single form of combat, he has mastered every unarmed martial art, every spear technique, archery technique, sword technique, the list goes on. He also has the instinctive knowledge to use the best possible techniques for any situation and can even make new ones on the fly to help adapt and use those if need be. Li Shuwen, as a living human, just goes "lolno" and fights evenly with Red Hare

• Okada not only surpasses Li in terms of potential, he surpasses most people in the verse in terms of potential, without even giving any effort he is still one of the most skilled people, easily replicating the sword techniques of masters that spend lifetimes honing their skills, and adding their techniques to his own list.

• Musashi, before getting Zero, never lost a single fight in her world. She would face world renowned swordsmen older than her, who had practiced for much longer amounts of time and would come out on top. Male Musashi has a similar record except he also beat his world's Sasaki, and you can't attribute it to hax (female Musashi's isn't either but still) because he literally doesn't have any.

The rest of the sword saints at full power scale massively above this in terms of skill, to the point that they would skill stomp anyone I mentioned above, and Yagyu, without going all out, is still superior to full power sword saints by such a massive amount, that there isn't a single future out of infinite possibilies, in which he loses to them.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

you did literally everything short of just plain type it, yes. Also, that alone is not even remotely logical

• Nasu tends to just say that skilled people can do shit like without much detailed explanation. That's a bitch to deal with tbh
• it literally says on Hassan's page that, when he intends to kill, how strong or weak someone is ceases to matter, as they are just one life to him
• I remember hearing that he had a spammable Sphere Boundary taht was usable in combat. There's also the fact that his martial arts were likely powerful enough to possess Mystery
• having more talent than x is, in fact, a feat, or at least a statement that has validity considering everything else the Sword Saints have done

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

an exaggerated version of something realistic is almost always not realistic in any way, look at literally anything that happens in Baki for a good example

i'm just going to repost this until you get it into your head @KGiffoni

 

[Firephoenixearl]

• it literally says on Hassan's page that, when he intends to kill, how strong or weak someone is ceases to matter, as they are just one life to him
• I remember hearing that he had a spammable Sphere Boundary taht was usable in combat. There's also the fact that his martial arts were likely powerful enough to possess Mystery
• having more talent than x is, in fact, a feat, or at least a statement that has validity considering everything else the Sword Saints have done

Putting words in my mouth now? I never said any of it, what you got from it is your own issue. And how the f is that not logical? He had a bad childhood, he had a lot of willpower due to it and trained hard. Another example, Kenichi, was bullied, picked up martial arts cus of it then eventually became a master. How is having a reason for getting strong "illogical".

• >The explanation's in there

>Natsu just says they can do it without detailed explanation

• Oh, how strong someone is, is usually not reffered to as "strengths", it's misleading as it is usually used as "advantages" or "perks". Well he can just kill stronger people, not all that impressive.

• Those don't seem like skill feats of the dudes.

• It is not a feat, we call it scaling as it doesn't really bring anything new in terms of what he can bring to the table, it just allows you to say "X>Y".

 

[KGiffoni]

One is realistic, the other one is an extremely exaggerated/amplified version of the first one, mantaining logic but not realism.

The "skill feats" aren't meant to be realistic, but they got to have somewhat plausible logic into them.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Paul

• Nothing impressive unless he can do some form of technique with it. Besides, Shigure can become one with "all" weapons including her opponent's.

• Ok that's just scaling above the brothers, Arjuna and the army members i guess. Besides everyone and their grandmother can fight armies in the top 5.

• Master swordsman, unquantifiable with feats.

• If he has a greater mastery than her it just means she hasn't mastered swords. And mastery is very subjective based on the verse. Verses can have swinging a sword like an average 13y/o good, doesn't mean we'll go like "it's true mastery" without feats

• More scaling, no feats.

• More scaling

This is the issue. I can say "Im stronger than my friend who is stronger than another friend" and add 20 more scaling friends there, but without feats im still just human.

 

[John985]

• Assassi/Lancer Li Shuwen. The former, while still a very old human, nearly defeated Rider (Red Hare) without any weapons or magic, and the latter is comparable to Hōzōin

In this part. In LB3 Li Shuwen was only human and his age is already 154 when he fought Chaldeas Servant.

Hozoin is comparable to young Li, but Old Li above it.

 

[Moritzva]

That rule never existed considering about half of the list, if i'm being honest

HL3, on any other thread, I'd tell you that you're obviously out of your mind for thinking that fellow is 'the most skilled'.

But you have a damn good point.

So either we remove half of the list, or he gets first place.

 

[KGiffoni]

That rule never existed considering about half of the list, if i'm being honest

HL3, on any other thread, I'd tell you that you're obviously out of your mind for thinking that fellow is 'the most skilled'.
But you have a damn good point.

So either we remove half of the list, or he gets first place.

There's a difference between a skill feat that is unrealistic (allowed) and a skill feat that not only is very unrealistic but also has no plausible logic behind it (not allowed).

 

[First_Witch]

Inb4 Skill as a topic gets banned like our beloved Waifu and Husbando threads

 

[Paul_Frank]

@earl

• He does have plenty of techniques with it. Including the 11 unofficial techniques published by Ishun, which allows him, ontop of the buddha stuff, to cope with any and all enemies, even enemies physically superior to him, those with weapons that are too strange and too much for him, and even gain the upper hand against physically superior, similarly skilled opponents that he has never heard of or seen before

• The thing is that neither the brothers, nor the armies are slouches by any means. They are all elite soldiers, literally the top of their time period with absurd amounts of training and experience, its not like they were beating armies of nobodies, they were beating armies of top of the line soldiers

• Hassan isn't unquantifiable, he scales above every other Hassan, the likes of which include Cursed Arm, who was able to fight relatively well against Cu. Cu himself has statement around the level of Karna and Hozoin. Even having similar feats of beating armies of the most skilled and powerful soldiers alone, for weeks straight. Additionally, Cu scales to Artoria, who has also reached a level of swordsmanship beyond human potential, and scales to other roundtable members like Lancelot, or Galahad partially.

• Not sure who you are referring to in this one. Either way, mastery of weapons or martial arts is such a high cap in the verse, that people who practice literally constantly for their whole life, stomp people comparable in strength to them, fight off armies of skilled and strong people single handedly, aren't even considered close to mastering their techniques. Something like Bajiquan takes practically a lifetime to master, and at literally any level below Li someone is said to have "just learned it", for reference, Li trained every day for hours on end, any time he woke up in the middle of the night, he would train, when he woke up in the morning, he would train. He did this every single day for decades without fail, and by the time of the lostbelt he is 154 years old, and likely hasn't let up.

• The Okada thing isn't just scaling, its him replicating the techniques of swordsmen that needed decades to hone their craft, techniques learned over generations of training in one school, lifetimes of training, all of it, without ever actually doing anything close to trying.

• I'm pretty sure Musashi stomping masters of swordsmanship who spent much more time than her training and practicing, is a feat, not just scaling

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But you have a damn good point.

So either we remove half of the list, or he gets first place.

There is a difference between an exagerated feats and it being unexplained and completely illogical.

 

[Moritzva]

But you have a damn good point.

So either we remove half of the list, or he gets first place.

There is a difference between an exagerated feats and it being unexplained and completely illogical.

You're right, on one hand you have a lot of superhuman badasses, and on the other hand you have Ikki.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ikki doesn't really fall under the latter. Unless you're saying transcending time and space via skill and what ikki does are similar.

If that's your point i'll drop this coversation.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Well, bypassing fate through skill seems like that.

 

[Ionliosite]

Technically, he did it via willpower and hard work

 

[00potato]

And that's better?

 

[Ionliosite]

And that's better?

Not really, I'm just saying that he really didn't do it "via skill" as people put it.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

HL3, on any other thread, I'd tell you that you're obviously out of your mind for thinking that fellow is 'the most skilled'.
But you have a damn good point.

So either we remove half of the list, or he gets first place.

There's a difference between a skill feat that is unrealistic (allowed) and a skill feat that not only is very unrealistic but also has no plausible logic behind it (not allowed).

Ok so

Again come back to me when that gets added to the OP and every character who breaks that rule, aka all but like 2-3, are removed

Until then this does not matter

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Anyways

Every single argument against Yagyu being first has been either blatant downplaying, straight up lies and deceit, or the warping of the rules for absolutely no reason and with no backing whatsoever.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>Straight up lies and deceit.

How can one even lie about a character they do not know?

 

[BakiHanma18]

Guys, just remember to try to keep it civil. We're out here making a skill list to debate and have fun. I don't want this to get closed or for people to get at each other's throats