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- #241
I’m not sure, refresh me (btw, bout to head to sleep, so it’ll be a couple of hours before I can get back to ya lol)
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Skill Wars: The Last Skill Thread
- Thread starter BakiHanma18
- Start date
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Someone was pushing for a reform and a rule page for how we evaluate skill, but I'm pretty sure it was concluded that it should remain as a case-by-case basis (thank god)
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- #243
Yeah, I’d rather any standardizing of skill be a casual and case-by-case procedure
BTW, when editing the OP, should I post the new list with the scores (like 1 being 100-90, 2 being 89-80, etc), or the old list we had before we started trying to score? If we do the new list, I can just post all the unscored people beneath the list under a section called “Unlisted” or something, IE people who need a score/rating for the new list.
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Unfortunately I feel like the scoring system still has a lot of kinks to work out before it can be properly used.
Though it does give me an idea.
Though it does give me an idea.
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Also just to repost my last thing in the previous skill thread, since I didn't hear anyone's response to it
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- #247
Yeah, the system definitely needs work, so what I’d planned to do is get the list set so we can work on it as we go, like “well, scoring like this doesn’t really make sense” or something like that.
Creature, with you, it’ll be enough to pass and get rid of skill chains, 6 votes + me would equal the 7, so if you’re sure, then we can remove it and I won’t have to change the scores
Creature, with you, it’ll be enough to pass and get rid of skill chains, 6 votes + me would equal the 7, so if you’re sure, then we can remove it and I won’t have to change the scores
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Yes. My initial idea is that we should list out each of the categories, and we start by identifying which examples among the nominees are the 10s. That way, right off the bat, we have a point of comparison so that the overall structure will fall into place more easily in the following discussions.
Removing skill chains completely doesn't sit right with me. I'm alright with putting that discussion on hold for now, but they should not be removed and it's an issue that will need to be addressed. Me, Weekly, and HI3 (who admittedly is no longer actively involved in this discussion) still think they should be accounted for in some way, and are a perfectly valid form of skill evaluation. Removing them places an incredibly heavy bias on characters with composite skill or a greater number of onscreen fights, and while the first is valid, the latter is not indicative of superior skill at all.
Not to mention that in extremely skilled verses where not as many of the characters have directly fought each other, it virtually removes their nominees from the running entirely.
For example, virtually all of the skill feats in Rakudai and Ragnarok come from Ikki and Kojiro, respectively, and tthey happen to show a wide variety of skills. Yujiro, Fugil, and Hayato are composites of their verse's skill, so that allows literally every other type of skill shown in their verse to apply to them (which again, is valid, but should not be overblown).
On the flipside, Fate characters only very occasionally get into bouts of pure skill, as it usually tends to be skill coinciding or colliding with hax and superior physicals. For this reason, we get very little indication of who is more skilled than who, and each Servant tends to be very specialized, about as far from composite skill as you can get. In spite of this, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Musashi is the most skilled Servant by far despite not being a composite, and if things came down to a purely skill-based contest between the Servants she would win by a landslide. And in such a skilled verse, that is quite impressive. But under a system in which skill chains are removed, she's all but stricken from the list due to being neither a composite, nor fighting enough skilled opponents.
As mentioned, Jax and Kuroki suffer from this problem to a lesser extent.
Removing skill chains completely doesn't sit right with me. I'm alright with putting that discussion on hold for now, but they should not be removed and it's an issue that will need to be addressed. Me, Weekly, and HI3 (who admittedly is no longer actively involved in this discussion) still think they should be accounted for in some way, and are a perfectly valid form of skill evaluation. Removing them places an incredibly heavy bias on characters with composite skill or a greater number of onscreen fights, and while the first is valid, the latter is not indicative of superior skill at all.
Not to mention that in extremely skilled verses where not as many of the characters have directly fought each other, it virtually removes their nominees from the running entirely.
For example, virtually all of the skill feats in Rakudai and Ragnarok come from Ikki and Kojiro, respectively, and tthey happen to show a wide variety of skills. Yujiro, Fugil, and Hayato are composites of their verse's skill, so that allows literally every other type of skill shown in their verse to apply to them (which again, is valid, but should not be overblown).
On the flipside, Fate characters only very occasionally get into bouts of pure skill, as it usually tends to be skill coinciding or colliding with hax and superior physicals. For this reason, we get very little indication of who is more skilled than who, and each Servant tends to be very specialized, about as far from composite skill as you can get. In spite of this, we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Musashi is the most skilled Servant by far despite not being a composite, and if things came down to a purely skill-based contest between the Servants she would win by a landslide. And in such a skilled verse, that is quite impressive. But under a system in which skill chains are removed, she's all but stricken from the list due to being neither a composite, nor fighting enough skilled opponents.
As mentioned, Jax and Kuroki suffer from this problem to a lesser extent.
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Creature. That "should be taken into account if they're countering skill with skill" doesn't really work. Because if X has AP and Y has precision. X counters Y's precision with his AP. Does it make his AP any better? No.
However if he shows any extra feats of AP, then those are taken into account, not the fact that he can counter precision.
However if he shows any extra feats of AP, then those are taken into account, not the fact that he can counter precision.
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- #250
Ok, to try to make a temporary compromise between “keep SC” and “remove SC” how about we try to get the new list situated with the category 10 idea Creature had, and we don’t include SC. We aren’t removing it yet, but we aren’t giving points for it. That way, if we keep it, we score it. If we don’t, we can just remove the category
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I'm alright with that.
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- #252
Good shit, alright, I guess Analytical Prediction is as good a place as any to start. Who would be a 10 in Analytical Prediction and why?
Ex.: Goku should be a 10 because he predicted Hit’s movements through a timeskip. < something like that
Ex.: Goku should be a 10 because he predicted Hit’s movements through a timeskip. < something like that
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So for starters I guess I'll list off the best examples of analytical prediction I can think of.
Batman can slow his perception of time to analyze his opponent’s mind, predict their next action, and make their skills his own, as though he’s living a year in an instant.
Uther Doul is capable of reading ahead and seeing every individual movement it's possible for his sword to make from its current position, accounting for millions of possibilities, then shaving off all the disadvantageous ones in an instant, followed by going through the same process again and again with every single individual instant that passes.
As long as Archer has fought an opponent before, even one that outclasses him in all other regards including most forms of skill, his predictions are so good that he can reliably seize even a 1% chance of victory. Arjuna's projectiles are capable of following an evading enemy so accurately that it's as though they're homing missiles, despite this simply being a product of him perfectly leading his shots. Munenori Yagyu is able to read ahead to the point that he perceives thousands of possible fight outcomes the moment a battle begins, and stays one step ahead with a counter prepared for all of them. Musashi and Kojiro later surpass him in this regard, going from seeing thousands of outcomes to hundreds of millions, with Musashi being perfectly capable of acting perfectly enough to choose exactly which possibility plays out (not to be confused with her fatehax, which has a similar but more conceptual effect).
I would call either Doul or Musashi a 10, depending on whether it's more impressive to have to manage a million possibilities continuously and concurrently, or to read ahead and enact one of hundreds of millions.
Also can't remember how many possibilities Ragnarok Kojiro can account for but he'd be up there as well.
Batman can slow his perception of time to analyze his opponent’s mind, predict their next action, and make their skills his own, as though he’s living a year in an instant.
Uther Doul is capable of reading ahead and seeing every individual movement it's possible for his sword to make from its current position, accounting for millions of possibilities, then shaving off all the disadvantageous ones in an instant, followed by going through the same process again and again with every single individual instant that passes.
As long as Archer has fought an opponent before, even one that outclasses him in all other regards including most forms of skill, his predictions are so good that he can reliably seize even a 1% chance of victory. Arjuna's projectiles are capable of following an evading enemy so accurately that it's as though they're homing missiles, despite this simply being a product of him perfectly leading his shots. Munenori Yagyu is able to read ahead to the point that he perceives thousands of possible fight outcomes the moment a battle begins, and stays one step ahead with a counter prepared for all of them. Musashi and Kojiro later surpass him in this regard, going from seeing thousands of outcomes to hundreds of millions, with Musashi being perfectly capable of acting perfectly enough to choose exactly which possibility plays out (not to be confused with her fatehax, which has a similar but more conceptual effect).
I would call either Doul or Musashi a 10, depending on whether it's more impressive to have to manage a million possibilities continuously and concurrently, or to read ahead and enact one of hundreds of millions.
Also can't remember how many possibilities Ragnarok Kojiro can account for but he'd be up there as well.
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- #254
Alright, so the 2 contenders currently for full points on Analytical Prediction are Uther Doul and Musashi (Saber). I guess we can do this for a week, but after a week, we should pick a winner to expedite the procedure. Anyone can suggest anyone, though I’d like to have a consensus or at least a majority vote for best Analytical Prediction by next Friday or Saturday, then we can move on to the next category.
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- #258
I can do it now
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- #259
