Skill Thread: New Beginnings

[LordGinSama]

Your first line here is utterly meaningless, no the average person doesn't have thousands upon thousands of ways to attack. "Possibilities" doesn't actually give us a legitimate number to work with, once again none of his opponents have ever showcased having an arsenal of thousands upon thousands of moves that he instantly analyzed. Sasaki and the others have that number we're looking for.




I think the ZY thing is meant as 1 million as a collective, I.E being able to predict every action of every singular one of their attacks each, with their own wide arsenal from what I'm gathering. It's superior to Sasaki's due to having a bigger number behind his AP, but Sasaki's Thousand Image Defense is >>> Ikki's AP as far as predicting each of your opponents possible course of action is concerned. Sasaki can perfectly predict and out predict Poseidon who out predicted Sasaki's early Thousand Image Defense which is several thousand.





Once again "unfoolable" is a complete and total NLF blanket statement. Such a statement means Jack shit in this type of thread, although I remember Ikki never being able to perfectly predict all of Eddel's attacks instantly, but if you want an example of how good Sasaki's Information Analysis is by the end of the fight Sasaki analyzed everything within the Arena, which houses every human to have ever existed and all the gods from various religions.



Sasaki could tango and later on surpass a guy who easily out predicted his earlier Thousand image Defense which is several thousands. Also that's nothing, literally any character with a sixth sense would be able to do the same thing. Can Ikki out predict a god who can out predict a guy who can AP several thousand possibly ways his opponent could attack and narrow it down to the next attack perfectly.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

although I remember Ikki never being able to perfectly predict all of Eddel's attacks

Ugh....what?

 

[XDragnoir]

And there is still my question of, what was the best they could do with the prediction? Ikki could fight someone who could not be sensed by any of the 5 senses. Can any of your guys pull something like that off with only prediction?

ZY fought 28 opponents above his power level (afaik, his only advantage was Prediction, but they probably had their own prediction, since it is a common thing in the verse) without being able to use the same technique twice, since they would counter it no matter what it was, and killed many of them (this was around chapter 700, in chapter 1300 he is problem better in this regard)

I may be wrong, but i think there is a statement about him being able to predict even more against less amounts or comparable opponents.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

That's quite good. If we assume Doul or Sasaki is a 10, I'd give that a 9

 

[BakiHanma18]

Alright, so is ZY no longer a candidate for 10? Doesn’t really matter who all is a candidate or not, just to clarify, I just need a majority agreed upon name by the end of the week. I’m just trying to keep up with the discussion.

Ikki, Doul, Sasaki (RoR), and possibly ZY, that right?

 

[XDragnoir]

Ehhhh... what? I thought the 10 was between Ikki and ZY, since they are the only ones with the ability to predict thought and instincts.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yes but Sasaki can predict more actions further ahead, Doul can predict more possible actions at once, and Musashi may be better than both if that translation source is valid

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Honestly what's the point of seeing more possible actions if you cannot do sth different from what Ikki predicted about you simply because you'd have to outsmart your own identity? You may have a lot of actions, but if your identity tells him that you will not do any of them...what's the point? Why would you need them?

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Because Perfect Vision is vague and its most detailed description is an nlf, plus it doesn't always work, as with Edelweiss

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>It doesn't always work as with Edelweiss
Where are you people getting this?

And "it's most detailed description is a NLF". Saying that it is NLF even though it has a clear mechanic is like saying "a 9-A atomic cutting a 3-A is NLF", which is not a NLF.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

But when that mechanic amounts to "he knows you so well that you can never outmaneuver him again because he predicts everything you do", that veers into nlf because it doesn't have a defined limit.

Also didn't it literally not work on Edelweiss or am I just remembering that fight wrong and it totally did?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It is identity based. You have to pretty much change who you are to fool his prediction. The person named X is just understood on a fundamental level at this point.

You are remembering the fight wrong. Edel is basically Ikki+ in all regards including skill and Perfect Vision still absolutely worked its magic:

Why? ―The reason was Edelweiss, who Intetsu infused with Saigeki's force was rushing toward, had stopped Saigeki by blocking with her own swords. At the tip of his sword that was no wider than a needle, her blades had met perfectly, countering Ikki's highest offensive ability. ―It was indeed amazing.

"Ugh…!"

Just like that, at the deed which displayed the true difference between the two of them, a great agitation grew in Ikki's chest.

And Edelweiss didn't miss that agitation. She took the gap in Ikki's reaction that had become just slightly dull―

"Whoa!"

Edelweiss's attack tore Ikki's skin at last. What was torn was―his forehead. To make things worse, the blood that burst out from there flowed into Ikki's eyes.

My view!

Of course, Edelweiss didn't let that fatal vulnerability pass. What she unleashed was the instant cross-shaped attack that she had showed at the beginning. The pursuing sword, with its swift stroke, burned the air white―

"Haaaaa!"

But all of that was an interaction Ikki Kurogane had foreseen. He drove her off, and all of her cross-like attacks. For Ikki who had the vision of both eyes stolen away, not a bit of agitation was in him.

How? All of that was already things he didn't need to see!

I can't see the swings, but I can see through the muscles moving her body!

Edelweiss's breath. Swordsmanship. Tempo. Footwork―

It was the peerless ability of insight, stripping bare the essence of the opponent's habits through the information he gained from the opponent while fighting.

Perfect Vision―using the asset he had besides sword technique, the Worst One saw through Edelweiss's own technique. So he didn't need vision anymore.

So yeah even against a character that was better than him in all regards he got so accurately hold of her identity that he didn't even need to see any of the attacks anymore. Even Edel couldn't break out of this.

 

[XDragnoir]

So, ID, Ego and Super-Ego prediction? something like that?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You act like im supposed to know those guys.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I'm on phone so I cant debate that much but ZY can predict what an opponent will do next by calculating the flow of their blood essences, the shortcomings of their skills, the positions of their Yuan Shen, the weaknesses of their mortal body, their movements, habits and their next points of attack. As if he had gone through the same predicament thousands of times that he knew exactly what to do and where to move in order to evade the skills. Furthermore, he can predict through their personalities, thoughts, and even their instincts from dozens of foes at the same time and calculate the changes and results of hundreds of millions of skills at once

 

[XDragnoir]

You act like im supposed to know those guys.

LMAO

Id, ego and superego - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not saying i understand even half of what all these things means, but still.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

LMAO

Id, ego and superego - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not saying i understand even half of what all these things means, but still.

Oh those, i was expecting characters. From my limited knowledge on those topics (from studying Freud in the philosophical classes), it is similar yes. But a simpler way to understand what Ikki does is "If i were you" cranked up to the limit. He basically thinks of what "you" would do in your situation, but he has such a fundamental understanding of "you" that it is pretty much impossible to fool as long as you don't change "you".

Man, i knew i should've taken those psychology classes.

 

[LordGinSama]

That text did nothing to prove Ikki's AP being above the contenders, I'll admit his Information Analysis is most likely a 10 but in regards to what and how far he's able to predict, he comes short in comparison.



Keep in mind I said sheer prediction, not information analysis.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Tell me when your characters can predict thoughts and feelings and are also capable of being accurate on an identity level when people outright more skilled in all regards cannot escape.

 

[LordGinSama]

> Not information Analysis



> Continues to argue his Information analysis







That's a very common trope that most characters on the wiki have as a basic ability. Naruto can sense emotions and feelings, Luffy can predict intentions, emotions and can see into the future, that doesn't mean much all things considered. What the characters are doing here is above that anyway, come get me when Ikki can instantly view thousands of possible attacks and narrow it down to the true attack perfectly. Oh wait that's right.






Sasaki what quite literally fighting against an Olympic God who was vaslty superior in all categories by miles, and you even admitted that Edel isn't vastly superior to Ikki since he could keep up with her. Also predicting someone's attack who's more skilled is meaningless, you'd need to be at least comparable to the attacker in skill to successfully dodge, prediction means nothing when you lack the speed or skill required to dodge.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

>predicting feelings, thoughts, plans etc
>Info analysis
Whatever floats your boat m8.

>you even admitted that Edel isn't vastly superior to Ikki since he could keep up with her
Actually when dude? All these wrong claims outta nowhere......

Also predicting someone's attack who's more skilled is meaningless

Meaningless....can you show me any of your characters pull that off though?

you'd need to be at least comparable to the attacker in skill to successfully dodge, prediction means nothing when you lack the speed or skill required to dodge.

And this is supposed to mean what?

 

[LordGinSama]

Sasaki also has similar feats to that anyway, Poseidon was FTE to Sasaki, had a much, much, much wider AoE than anything Ikki or Edel has ever showcased before and prediction that's comparable to Sasaki's Thousand Image Defense.





Sasaki was able to instantly track down and predict all of the moves Poseidon and his after images would be attacking from, blocking and weaving through the majority of them. There were enough after images to fill a good portion of the RoR Arena which houses all of humanity as a collective and every god as a collective.

 

[LordGinSama]

Earl are you blind or not bright?

"also capable of being accurate on an identity level when people outright more skilled in all regards cannot escape."


Ignoring the context of your own comment huh? Nice. And you've literally argued against us ranking Edel over Ikki several times throughout this thread.




Can you show me Ikki pulling off anything they have?





Ikki is comparable enough in Edel in the skill department to dodge her attacks. And I still have yet to see Ikki analyzing all of her moves instantly and narrowing it down to one singular outcome out of several thousands of attacks they could have taken.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Poseidon was FTE

Wait do y'all really need me to bring up Ikki beating 4 of his 20x amped clones now? Is that really what y'all want? But even without that, you'd be amazed by:
1. How little that means in terms of prediction
2. How much ikki dwarfs that feat.

had a much, much, much wider AoE than anything Ikki

Predicting and beating a guy with AoE is harder to precog? Ikki laughs at whatever feat you may bring for predicting and toying around with Stella's city level thought based nukes.

prediction that's comparable to Sasaki's Thousand Image Defense

Having prediction doesn't make prediction any harder. But if we wanna consider that too then sure. Ikki beat actual mind reading.

Sasaki was able to instantly track down and predict all of the moves Poseidon and his after images would be attacking

That's a lie, they even explain that Sasaki was using every info he could gain before the fight started from Poseidon's habits. It's called Analytical Prediction for a reason. It's not AP if there are no info to go off of in the first place.

moves Poseidon and his after images would be attacking from, blocking and weaving through the majority of them

That's what Ikki does to 100 attacks that cannot be sensed by any of the 5 senses.

Ignoring the context of your own comment huh?

When?

And you've literally argued against us ranking Edel over Ikki several times throughout this thread.

What?! Dude i was the one who said to put Edel there in the first place. I've said that recent arcs ikki may have reached her. What we're discussing is vol 4 Ikki. The hell are you getting all of this from?

Can you show me Ikki pulling off anything they have?

Elaborate.

Ikki is comparable enough in Edel in the skill department to dodge her attacks

Being able to dodge someone has quite literally nothing to do with being more skilled or comparably skilled.

And I still have yet to see Ikki analyzing all of her moves instantly and narrowing it down to one singular outcome

I quite literally showed you the quote of ikki doing that.

 

[LordGinSama]

1: I'm aware of the feat and I'm iffy on the translations used, but that's for another thread.



2: So now a city is suddenly bigger than an arena that can house every human to have ever lived and every god to have exist in several dozens of religions? Okay Earl lmao. Stella's AoE isn't shit in comparison to a guy who can fill the majority of a stadium that can house much, much more people than a city could handle but nice try.



3: It absolutely does especially when your opponent is outdoing your own prediction. Prediction vs Prediction is a game of numbers, I.E who sees the further ahead has the advantage.


4: That's absolutely not a lie, you have zero clue on the context. Sasaki could never fully get a valid read on Poseidon, and that statement was made before Poseidon really began to fight, use his AoE moves or even use his own AP.

5: Still pales in comparison to Sasaki's dodging and deflecting AoE attacks that put Stella's to shame, against someone who has his own broken Prediction and being several orders of magnitudes FTE.



6: Read your own comment, I even quoted you.


7: I'm like 90% sure a bunch of other people nominated her, not you.


8: I.E scanning all of humanity and all of god, all the vibrations in the stadium, everyone's breathing, etc.



9: Dodging absolutely has to do with one's skill. Luffy is damn good at dodging but I wouldn't say he's able to dodge attacks from Edel under speed Equalization.



10: Yeah no, you haven't shown Ikki going through several thousands of possibilities.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. What feat?
2. In every pannel used it clearly isn't as big as a city. VERY far from it. Do show me a scan where it's shown to be as big as a city though.
3. Your opponent having prediction doesn't make ur prediction harder. They have nothing to do with each-other.
5. How does it pale? Conceptual stealth carpet bombing is way beyond what Poseidon has ever shown.
6. I fail to see how me saying what Ikki's prefect vision does is ignoring context....
7. Ah nice, can you quote me when people vouched for her and me denying that? I'd legit want to see some of these claims being backed up.
8. Scanning all of humanity and a god? LMAO. Weren't you the one who said not to bring analysis feats into this? Good one. It shows that you're completely coherent in your argument and what you want to convey.
9. Dodging has nothing to do with being comparable in skill. But hey outside of headcanon i'd like to see the arguments for ikki being close to Edel. Im always the one having to prove you guys wrong and i can do that anytime i want here as there is a statement in the novels. Let's see you bring up a statement from the rakudai novels that proves that Edel and Ikki in vol 4 are comparable in anything. I'd love to see that.
10. I showed ikki predicting Edel.

Also let's do a game about this whole game of possibilities. Let's compare the arsenal of Poseidon to the people Ikki fights and predicts and see if all that a thousand possibilities vs All Possibilities is just you trying to hide behind the numbers or you actually have some basis about these guys having more up their sleeves than the people ikki fights.

Oh and Sasaki is very much not narrowing it down to 1 single possibility, his whole thing is fighting the opponent many times in his head and seeing what routes don't result in his death.

 

[LordGinSama]

1: The clone feat




2: That's absolutely not true, that ******* stadium is holding every singular human to have ever lived, every god, etc. **** sake London itself could fit in the arena with room to spare.



3: What are you smoking? Yes it does, it becomes a contest of Prediction. It's harder to predict shit if your opponent is always ahead of you.



5: Conceptual stuff is moot.



6: Because I said AP, not information analysis as that's what I'd like to focus on.



7: i can do just that in a few hours.


8: Because you brought it up ya dunce.



9: It absolutely does, you wouldn't be able to dodge a blow from someone who's massively more skilled than you unless you have a hax or a speed advantage.




10: Not needed, Sasaki cleary has numbers backing him and no, I'm not hiding behind numbers because that's what this game is about. Literal numbers, Sasaki and co have specifications.





Sasaki predicts the outcome of many fights in his head instantly, he's going through all of the possible courses of action and picking out which attacks his opponent will use next. You cleary have no clue as to what your talking about if you legitimately think that Arena is smaller than a city. This is the Seireitei argument all over again lol, London can fit comfortably inside and it houses much more people than a city could fit.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. We actually had a thread about that at one point, but translations weren't it.
2. LMAO. This? The size of a city? Oh please do pixel scale the arena from the size of the characters in the ring. I'd love to see the result.
3. Prediction vs prediction can help, but it doesn't make it harder. It makes it less accurate.
5. Not really. Conceptual skill is moot, not beating conceptual stealth. Not the same thing.
6. Identity level is for prediction dude, how many times do i have to say it? It's about how strong and unfoolable the prediction is.
8. When?
9. As long as you're not making useless movements. There is nothing more in terms of what "skill" can help you. It peaks there. So unless you're saying there is no more to skill than that, or that you cannot reach that level, dodging doesn't mean 2 ppl are comparable in skill.
10. "Not needed" yeah, totally doesn't sound like you're just hiding behind numbers. It's not like Poseidon is such a dry character in terms of what he can do that quite literally every opponent Ikki faces has 10x more up his sleeve. I am convinced that you're not just abusing the term "oh it's vague" when it would be so much more than anything Sasaki has ever done.

My argument: Sasaki doesn't narrow it down to 1 possibility
You: He simulates many possible outcomes (which is just saying what i did). And you're dumb for saying the arena is smaller than a city.

I feel absolutely defeated on this last argument tbh. All my points were addressed and debunked so thoroughly.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Yeah I'm gonna stand by Ikki having 10 in Analysis and 8 in precog

 

[LordGinSama]

1: Mind giving me the link?



2: Nice job posting a scan that's broken, absolute genius of a man. Pixel scaling is irrelevant in this, we have several direct statements of the Arena being big enough to hold every human, god, etc. The art doesn't matter, it looking "less than city sized." Is an absolute bull shit argument. The arena could fit the city of London inside it easily, it's definitely bigger than city sized.




3: Prediction vs Prediction doesn't make the outcome less accurate, where are you getting this from? It's a battle of numbers, i.E who can predict first and furthest.



5: It's conceptual, such a feat is vague as **** to use and it's still conceptual skill no matter how you wanna slice it.



6: Being able to identify a person's personality and past is Information Analysis, not prediction.



8:With Ikki's Information Analysis.




9: Way to ignore the analogy, you'd need to hold comparable skill in order to evade attacks from your opponent, I.E they're much more gracefully and much more precise and accurate with their attacks, naturally you'd need comparable skill to dodge said accurate attacks.




10: Once again you can come to me when Ikki is able to predict an arsenal of thousands of attacks, which he hasn't. This is a game of numbers, how the **** would I be abusing numbers? In terms of how far these characters can read ahead Sasaki and co beat Ikki in that department.





You made the statement, don't get all pissy since you were blatantly wrong. And he's still narrowing it down to one possibility, he's predicting everything Poseidon could possibly do and going from there, predicting all attacks accurately.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

1. The issue was "it shouldn't be possible but it happened so worst case scenario it's PIS". Yes we have to hit Ikki with the "PIS" for things he does on a normal basis.
2. I mean if it is drawn way smaller than it should be what even is your argument here? He filled the area that was drawn way smaller than it should be, not your headcanon-y theoretical size. Show me the size of what he created with afterimages and let's see how big it actually is with pixel scaling huh? Also the link is working for me, it's probably ur issue.
3. "a battle of numbers". Depends honestly. Accuracy is the deciding factor, and yeah....poseidon clearly didn't have that one up his sleeve considering he got bodied like that.
5. >Beat Conceptual stealth
>Means ikki has Conceptual skill
As i said above. Whatever floats your boat i guess.
6. The accuracy of the prediction he gets out of it is prediction. I have to say it how many more times?
8. You misunderstanding me doesn't exactly give you a strong argument but let's just leave this point, even you know this one is bad.
9. As long as you don't make useless movement you're peaked in that regard dude. What are you gonna do past it? Negative useless movements? It doesn't matter how much more skilled the opponent is, dodging does not show they are comparable. But i asked above, can you give me a scan stating Ikki is comparable to Edelweiss?
10. All i said is let's compare the arsenal of the people they fought. A person with a larger arsenal logically has more possible moves, so what's the issue? Also as i said "possible moves" doesn't matter when you have Ikki's level of accuracy, which Sasaki doesn't. But back to the topic at hand shall we compare?

And he's still narrowing it down to one possibility

Can you give me a scan of this? Im curious. It's about time you start to back up any of your claims here.

 

[First_Witch]

No, the Link isnt working Earl

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's still working for me. Idk. Lemme see if i can find another way of linking it. Here.

 

[First_Witch]

New link is working yeah

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But yeah, if someone can actually size that up with pixel scaling to be as big as a city then I am Mary Poppins.

 

[LordGinSama]

Pixel scaling is irrelevant, once again this is the same recycled Seireitei argument. The artwork doesn't matter when they're made moot by actual statements given, the size of the Arena is blatantly bigger than a city due to the population and the fact that it can fit something as massive as London within it. To say it's city sized if absolutely ludicrous when we're given actual statements, so there's zero headcanon aside your own bullshit Earl.



Argument from disbelief isn't an argument. You saying "it looks like it's smaller than a city" is meaningless whenever such a small landmass could never hold that many humans and every god to have ever existed. You can try to pixel scale but that doesn't mean shit as to how big it is due to several statements regarding it's size, the population and the fact that it can hold London from within it tells us just how massive the Arena is.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Were those statements referring to the size of the arena inside? Also show me the london statement.

 

[LordGinSama]

Were those statements referring to the size of the arena inside? Also show me the london statement.

It's referring to the sheer size of the Arena, everyone including the humans ( as in literally every human to have ever exist, even the dead ones, every god from prominent religions and their people. ) it would go against the entire plot of the series if the Arena was city sized. The entire point of Ragnarok is a duel between Humanity and the Gods, with each side having a first seat view of the fights.




London is in the third fourth fight, Jack vs Hercules.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Scans pls.

 

[First_Witch]

The Arena size varies massivly depending on the fight. Lu Bu vs Thor was big enough for Lu Bus entire army to enter for example