Pokémon Trainer revisions (RPG Edition)

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not gonna make this long.

Pokémon protags and upper tier trainers should scale above island level due to facing their Legendaries. It shouldn’t be “inconsistent outliers.” These are JRPGs, where the whole thing is you go from rat slaying to godslaying. There’s no reason for us to treat Pokemon different from say, Final Fantasy or Persona in that regard. If like…Brendan and May beat up Groudon, they should scale to Groudon, as well as the characters that secede that fight. I’ll continue about who should scale to what.


Also, on a related note, the G4 gods shouldn’t be untouchable. Once again, people can reach god levels in JRPGs. Lucas and co. should scale to the god tiers because they faced em.

Finally, Cyrus. Pokeballs don’t weaken Palkia and Dialga that much. Whichever one Rei chooses to catch with the ultra ball takes a hit from a berserk Origin Forme of the other. Which means Cyrus’s Low 2-C key should be 2-A.

The only character who should be completely untouchable is the true form of Arceus. Even the avatar can be scaled to thanks to Rei/Akari

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This will also probably be my last thread. I will also be responding in the comment section. This isn’t one-and-done.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Legends should remain untouched btw. Reshiram ain’t getting a buff because he fought Nate who fought Cynthia who fought Lucas who fought Giratina

 

[theultimate5105]

Aren’t some of the legendaries testing the trainers
also for Legends Arceus you do not need to actually fight them in a traditional Pokemon battle to win
You also get the master ball before almost every single legendary boss battle (Although for A few you do not have it like some in Gen 7 and Gen 8

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Some are. Most aren’t.

 

[theultimate5105]

Anyways the Gen 7 and Gen 8 characters should probably scale as they have no Master Balls to capture the legendaries they fight at the time that they fight them

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

All protags should scale to their respective Legendaries. Some even beyond that. Red and Wally for example scale to the G4 protags, who hit multi

 

[theultimate5105]

All protags should scale to their respective Legendaries. Some even beyond that. Red and Wally for example scale to the G4 protags, who hit multi

Not all of them for sure after all they do have the master ball for most of them

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We know they face them rather than just capture them (Cynthia says that Lucas faced Giratina which implies a fight). Even if they do just toss the master ball, they’d still scale because their other mons fight characters who fight those Legends.

 

[theultimate5105]

We know they face them rather than just capture them (Cynthia says that Lucas faced Giratina which implies a fight). Even if they do just toss the master ball, they’d still scale because their other mons fight characters who fight those Legends.

So Lucas/Dawn probably would scale for that then. (But not all of them as unless the same kinda thing is stated in other games)
I mean but who fights those legends canonically (we cannot use games as we do not know what the fight actually looked like in canon).
anyways I will wait for more input from others.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If they’re wasting their master ball then they’d very much add em to their teams. So anyone after that should scale.
Red would be weird since all of his Legends are out of the way but he gets scaling beyond that anyway.

 

[theultimate5105]

If they’re wasting their master ball then they’d very much add em to their teams. So anyone after that should scale.
Red would be weird since all of his Legends are out of the way but he gets scaling beyond that anyway.

But We never see them fight anyone else in cutscenes or in anything canonical (we don’t know if the Protag pulling out a legendary caused him to instantly win or if it was a close match regardless of him using it we just know he ended up winning in the end)

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It makes zero sense narratively for he or she to instantly win the moment they pull out their Legendary. Like nothing supports Lucas stomping Cynthia, especially when we know that she had fun in her fight. And she wouldn’t be having fun if she literally got godstomped. Same goes with the other champs and E4 members

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Hmm, I'll keep an eye on things here. In a general sense, I do agree with the things being said here, especially since we are talking about the Pokemon Trainers' Pokemon, and not the Trainers themselves.

But, I'm gonna sit and see what kind of opposition is brought up here.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

This is fine

 

[theultimate5105]

It makes zero sense narratively for he or she to instantly win the moment they pull out their Legendary. Like nothing supports Lucas stomping Cynthia, especially when we know that she had fun in her fight. And she wouldn’t be having fun if she literally got godstomped. Same goes with the other champs and E4 members

He could have pulled it out last. She would have still had fun.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean considering I don't really know Pokemon, not sure I should comment

But this seems fine, I mean if the Trainers can fight God, they should scale to God

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Finally, that proposition so long ago between J-Man and I is being brought once more

Have always agreed with this, so yeah.

 

[Bobsican]

I recall the reason we used to do this at all was out of us scaling wild mons to trained mons for no good reason at the time, so yeah, it's outdated and sets a bad precedent now, so I agree, just don't forget to remove the Discussion Rule while we're at it.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I'm scared.

This is going too smoothly. Something's gonna happen.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm scared.

This is going too smoothly. Something's gonna happen.

Oh don’t worry. If something happens, I’m sure someone will do something about it.
Not me though. Retired Cal is a different beast.

 

[Bobsican]

Retired Cal isn't even a beast, he's someone that rants over stuff but rarely actually does something.

 

[Sniper670]

Not gonna make this long.

Pokémon protags and upper tier trainers should scale above island level due to facing their Legendaries. It shouldn’t be “inconsistent outliers.” These are JRPGs, where the whole thing is you go from rat slaying to godslaying. There’s no reason for us to treat Pokemon different from say, Final Fantasy or Persona in that regard. If like…Brendan and May beat up Groudon, they should scale to Groudon, as well as the characters that secede that fight. I’ll continue about who should scale to what.


Also, on a related note, the G4 gods shouldn’t be untouchable. Once again, people can reach god levels in JRPGs. Lucas and co. should scale to the god tiers because they faced em.

Finally, Cyrus. Pokeballs don’t weaken Palkia and Dialga that much. Whichever one Rei chooses to catch with the ultra ball takes a hit from a berserk Origin Forme of the other. Which means Cyrus’s Low 2-C key should be 2-A.

The only character who should be completely untouchable is the true form of Arceus. Even the avatar can be scaled to thanks to Rei/Akari

From PLA:
“When first this land was formed, man and ’mon lived happily, sharing all that they could see, by kind acts born and warmed. “One Pokémon then proposed that they should always ready be to help the humans should they need, and let their presence be disclosed. “And that is why, to this day, not all Pokémon do flee when a human they do see— they leap out where tall grasses sway.”

in a world where a psychic Pokémon like meowistic can crush a tank into dust, I find it hard to believe humans won't go extinct by now if all Pokémon are really out to kill. And many pokedex entries can attest to that.

The CT can erase people from existence, control time and control space. But when was the last time they used that against trainers and their Pokémon in a fight. Arceus supposedly has all their powers but he didn't, mf almost got caught in a pokeball ball. Giratina is just as powerful as them but somehow a trainer can fight it and live?

But ehh, I'll stick around and see what others have to say. I doubt Pokémon go all out in their fights

 

[Antvasima]

@Kirbyelmejor @The_2nd_Existential_Seed @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) @Starter_Pack @Bobsican @GyroNutz @Robot972 @Sans2345 @Udlmaster @SamanPatou @Gilad_Hyperstar @Imaginym @CloverDragon03 @Spinoirr @ArbitraryNumbers @Elizhaa @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @SomebodyData @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Dragonmasterxyz @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Psychomaster35 @SamanPatou @ElixirBlue @Firestorm808 @KieranH10 @Executor_N0 @QuasiYuri @Theglassman12

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Arceus0x]

only game characters should get this as Cal suggests. I feel sus about scaling the legends trainers to 2-A but i haven't played it and i can't argue with it.

 

[theultimate5105]

only game characters should get this as Cal suggests. I feel sus about scaling the legends trainers to 2-A but i haven't played it and i can't argue with it.

Nah legends trainers out of Anyone canonically fought Giratina 3 times without any way to catch it instantly. They also canonically have every single Pokemon in Hisui (which includes every tier 2 in Pokemon), they also have fought Dialga/Palkia (Although by the sounds of it in verse Dialga and Palkia were not Trying all that hard against them.)

 

[Udlmaster]

Finally, Cyrus. Pokeballs don’t weaken Palkia and Dialga that much. Whichever one Rei chooses to catch with the ultra ball takes a hit from a berserk Origin Forme of the other. Which means Cyrus’s Low 2-C key should be 2-A.

Also, it's important to note too, Cynthia, with all her advanced knowledge on Pokemon of all variety, was very sure she could beat Giratina, Palkia or Dialga.

I have no reason to doubt Cynthia's unique team could beat a member too.

 

[Imaginym]

I recall the reason we used to do this at all was out of us scaling wild mons to trained mons for no good reason at the time, so yeah, it's outdated and sets a bad precedent now, so I agree, just don't forget to remove the Discussion Rule while we're at it.

The Discussion Rule?

 

[Purmeenant]

The Discussion Rule?

This one:

Do not try to upgrade any Pokémon trainers, even the strongest and most skilled, to 2-B/2-A based on them keeping up with the Creation Trio. This has been deemed inaccurate on the basis of Game Mechanics and Plot-Induced Stupidity, and it greatly contradicts what the lore has established

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Some trainers could become 2-B/2-A, but in the mainline games there aren't any trainers with the creation trio or lake trio (or Arceus), or even Darkrai/Cresselia

In Pokemon Masters there are several trainers with 2-B/2-A Pokemon, but I'm not sure how canon it is to the main games. That said, there can be a specific version for them in this continuity

 

[Spinoirr]

only game characters, as its the plot of the game duh

 

[CloverDragon03]

Agree with this

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Some trainers could become 2-B/2-A, but in the mainline games there aren't any trainers with the creation trio or lake trio (or Arceus), or even Darkrai/Cresselia

In Pokemon Masters there are several trainers with 2-B/2-A Pokemon, but I'm not sure how canon it is to the main games. That said, there can be a specific version for them in this continuity

Cyrus can have either Dialga or Palkia on his team, in the Team Rainbow Rocket episode (USUM post-game) plus Giovanni, Lysandre and Ghetsis all have mons that (currently) scale to the light trio.

 

[Bobsican]

Would you be willing to help out here please?

Uh... I think I already shared my thoughts on the matter and even explained why, but I can understand that you lack the time to check who has already posted.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Cyrus can have either Dialga or Palkia on his team, in the Team Rainbow Rocket episode (USUM post-game) plus Giovanni, Lysandre and Ghetsis all have mons that (currently) scale to the light trio.

Yeah, forgot about USUM's Team Rainbow Rocket stuff, but that Cyrus is from another universe so idk

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Cal here. USUM is a perfect example of Trainers fighting Legendaries. Pokemon Masters also have a lot of examples of Trainers (such as Champions) explicitly scaling to Legendaries. Ghetsis' implied to be the biggest challenge in Black and White despite just challenging N and his Reshiram. There are a lot of examples throughout the Games actually of either indirect or direct scaling to Legendaries.

 

[theultimate5105]

Some trainers could become 2-B/2-A, but in the mainline games there aren't any trainers with the creation trio or lake trio (or Arceus), or even Darkrai/Cresselia

In Pokemon Masters there are several trainers with 2-B/2-A Pokemon, but I'm not sure how canon it is to the main games. That said, there can be a specific version for them in this continuity

In Pokemon legends Volo Has Giratina
and the protag canonically needs literally every hisui Pokemon (including all of the tier 2s) to fully finish the Plot of the game

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Ghetsis' implied to be the biggest challenge in Black and White despite just challenging N and his Reshiram.

Ghetsis also intended to take Reshiram/Zekrom from N by force in BW and even had a team built around battling N, he 100% planned on battling at least one of the dragons

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Would this make Leon and Red Creation Trio level for being the strongest trainers?