Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2 (Clover Edition): Mainline Game Scaling

[Imaginym]

I don’t remember if this was addressed in the other thread, but where are the human characters scaling to now? From what I can see on the profiles basically all the justifications for them come from either Origins or the main anime. You can probably still get durability scaling from Legends Arceus, but are there any AP feats? Maybe there’s something in Twilight Wings, Hisuian Snow or Paldean Winds (I assume these are still useable for mainline scaling purposes) but I don’t remember.

AP feats to scale the humans to what?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

AP feats to scale the humans to what?

Just AP feats in general, not for any specific level. They don’t really have anything to go off in the games, even humans known to be noticeably strong like Sabrina mainly get their scaling elsewhere.

You could maybe scale martial artists to their durability based on them training with their Pokémon and them probably fighting other martial artists (also would give them FTL combat speed), however the latter argument kinda doesn’t work with the Lance scene given that would make every martial artist scale to the Tower Duo and their trios. I’m also not sure if that kind of argument is even allowed, and even if that argument had no flaws that would only apply to martial artists and no-one else.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I know Bea famously spars with a Machamp in Twilight Wings, if that helps

 

[Omegabronic]

I know Bea famously spars with a Machamp in Twilight Wings, if that helps

yeah, but at same time, can we really scale all trainers to her?

 

[CloverDragon03]

yeah, but at same time, can we really scale all trainers to her?

No, given that she's notably a martial artist and all. I mean, at best you could maybe argue other Trainers aren't too inferior to her, but either way it was something worth mentioning imo

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I know Bea famously spars with a Machamp in Twilight Wings, if that helps

Yup, I remembered it being more one-sided but watching the episode again she did decently well (also she was exhausting herself due to excess training so she wasn’t at peak performance). She was also implied to have physically taken on a wild Rhydon alongside her Pokémon.

 

[Imaginym]

Just AP feats in general, not for any specific level. They don’t really have anything to go off in the games, even humans known to be noticeably strong like Sabrina mainly get their scaling elsewhere.

Any feats...?

Well, there's statements, IIRC.
If my memory serves, Korrina has a statements about being able to break rocks.

Korrina

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Spoiler: Long excerpt

April: "Hello! It's time for Gym Freaks, your source for the hottest news about hot Gym Leaders in Kalos. So... I'm now in front of the Shalour City Gym! ... Eeek. Korrina has arrived! She's cute! So cute! The way she dresses up in costume-like clothing makes my heart go crazy! Lately, Korrina has been in the PR Video Studio! Following two years of planning and another year of shooting, her highly anticipated new PR Video is scheduled for release at the end of next year! Oh... She went inside the Gym... That's all for the on-site report. Good-bye for now, everyone."
April: "Hello! It's time for Gym Freaks, your source for the hottest news about hot Gym Leaders in Kalos. So... I'm now in front of the Shalour City Gym! ... Eeek. Korrina has arrived! She's cute! So cute! The way she dresses up in costumes make my heart beat pit-a-pat! Her legs are so magnificent that her axe-kick move can shatter cave rocks into pieces! If I were her, I wouldn't need the HM. Oh... She went inside the Gym... That's all for the on-site report. Good-bye for now, everyone."

Drayden also has an impressive Stamina statement thanks to the in-game media thingy called National Gymquirer:

Drayden

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Spoiler: Another long excerpt

Pokémon Black 2 and White 2​

Jingle: "Woo hoo! All right! It's 'The National Gymquirer'!"Page: "That's right! We collect the hottest gossip about Gym Leaders seen around town! Here is today's letter. From someone going by the name Opelucitizen. Thank yooou! 'Drayden is a man among men who puts himself on the line to protect the people living in our city. He always gives his all, even in training. According to his training schedule I just happened upon, he does:'
1. 10,000 sit-ups
2. 10,000 push-ups
3. 10,000 squats
Isn't that outrageous?' Huh... How old is that guy anyway? 'The National Gymquirer'! We eagerly await your letters!"

Marlon has a statement/feat, although IDK if it succeeds our KE standards, since it involves him jumping out of the water at high speeds.

Spoiler: Verbose

National Gymquirer​

Jingle: "Woo hoo! All right! It's 'The National Gymquirer'!"
Page: "That's right! We collect the hottest gossip about Gym Leaders seen around town! Here is today's letter. From someone going by the name MisterFisher! Thank yooou! 'Marlon was swimming the other day, and he just kept going faster until he shot out of the water and into the sky! That swimming style could completely dominate the world of swimming.' Hm... That is amazing, but nobody else can do that. Actually, can you even call jumping into the sky swimming? 'The National Gymquirer'! We eagerly await your letters!"

Bea & probably 1 other Black Belt or other such martial artist has a feat of training with their Pokemon.
Professor Kukui studies Pokemon moves, often by being hit by them himself.

Anime Brycen has a feat of splitting a boulder in two.

There's a Black Belt NPC in Hoenn who says he breaks boulders with his fist.
Another Black Belt, IIRC, in the Sevii Islands regularly swims around an island every morning.

I actually posted some of that stuff in a blog... [finds blog & checks date] on June 13th, 2018.

In R/S/E (& probably OR/AS), Brendan & May can survive falling down the holes in Sky Pillar. & even earlier, on May 27th, 2018, I calced that (along with an anime feat.) into a blog.

There's a few other Black Belt feats I didn't mention in there.
Finding scans of talking to Preston in R/B/Y post-battling him (He's a Psychic in Sabrina's Gym, the blog has scans of his pre-battle dialogue & location.) would also help support Telepathy for Pokemon World Human Psychis.

Also, G/S/C Chuck has a feat of picking up & tossing a boulder, which shatters/disappears upon landing atop a statue.
In HG/SS he's just meditating under a small, manmade waterfall fueled by a wooden device.

You could maybe scale martial artists to their durability based on them training with their Pokémon and them probably fighting other martial artists (also would give them FTL combat speed), however the latter argument kinda doesn’t work with the Lance scene given that would make every martial artist scale to the Tower Duo and their trios. I’m also not sure if that kind of argument is even allowed, and even if that argument had no flaws that would only apply to martial artists and no-one else.

I'd hesitate to call a grunt surviving a champion level Pokemon legit. Does that grunt have any dialogue or role following being attacked?


Anyway, hopefully this is interesting &/or appreciable.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

So I have potentially three more things related to human AP scaling (and also something to do with human durability scaling):

1. Ghetsis in USUM held Lillie hostage and threatened to kill her if the protag didn’t stand down. His Pokémon were already knocked out at this point and there was no hint towards any potential weapon, so I would assume he was gonna kill her with his bare hands. Of course this brings up the very big issue of this seemingly average old dude scaling to Lugia (assuming we went that route with their durability), however that brings me to my second point.
2. It’s repeatedly stated by the Galaxy Team in PLA that Pokémon are dangerous, and it’s even suggested that the protag could die in their first mission. All Pokémon are portrayed as threats in-game and iirc no mid or final-stage Pokémon are involved with said first mission, so that would suggest that not all humans have the same level of durability as Bea or the Rocket Grunt that took a hit from Lance’s Dragonite. Furthermore the PLA protag is implied to be getting stronger during the game, as they go from first stages to Nobles to the Creation Trio to Arceus. Since AP can also be noticeably increased by martial artists I think it would be fair to say that not all characters have equal durability. Now this brings a different issue to the Ghetsis stuff, but I’ll bring that up after my next point.
3. This is also partly a question, but is Colosseum and XD stuff allowed for mainline scaling? The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember instances of humans harming other humans in the game. We could potentially get more human scaling from those games if it’s allowed and my memory isn’t failing me.

So the new issue with the Ghetsis argument is that Lillie is both 4 years younger than the PLA protag and is portrayed as relatively fragile compared to other characters, so I’m not sure if she would even be able to scale to any Pokémon in this case. She was also scared to save Nebby from some bird Pokémon at the beginning the game, which further supports the “not all durability is equal thing” but also gives more question of if she should scale or not. Idk, what does everyone else think?

 

[Imaginym]

So I have potentially three more things related to human AP scaling (and also something to do with human durability scaling):

1. Ghetsis in USUM held Lillie hostage and threatened to kill her if the protag didn’t stand down. His Pokémon were already knocked out at this point and there was no hint towards any potential weapon, so I would assume he was gonna kill her with his bare hands. Of course this brings up the very big issue of this seemingly average old dude scaling to Lugia (assuming we went that route with their durability), however that brings me to my second point.

Why would threatening Lillie scale him to Lugia?

1. It’s repeatedly stated by the Galaxy Team in PLA that Pokémon are dangerous, and it’s even suggested that the protag could die in their first mission. All Pokémon are portrayed as threats in-game and iirc no mid or final-stage Pokémon are involved with said first mission, so that would suggest that not all humans have the same level of durability as Bea or the Rocket Grunt that took a hit from Lance’s Dragonite. Furthermore the PLA protag is implied to be getting stronger during the game, as they go from first stages to Nobles to the Creation Trio to Arceus. Since AP can also be noticeably increased by martial artists I think it would be fair to say that not all characters have equal durability. Now this brings a different issue to the Ghetsis stuff, but I’ll bring that up after my next point.

FWIW, part of the fear does come from how misunderstood Pokemon seem, with Pokemon trainers & Pokemon catching & humans generally forming friendships with Pokemon being uncommon at that era.
Also, does anyone have the footage of the Grunt who took a hit from Lance's Dragonite? I'd like to check it?

Could also be that the PLA Protagonist is just exceptionally durable, especially after their training (As Black Belts & others can evidently get stronger, though apparently Protag just gets stronger at ridiculously high rates??) compared to other humans?

1. This is also partly a question, but is Colosseum and XD stuff allowed for mainline scaling? The reason I ask is because I vaguely remember instances of humans harming other humans in the game. We could potentially get more human scaling from those games if it’s allowed and my memory isn’t failing me.

I'm also curious about this.
One concern is that Colosseum & XD are developed primarily by Genius Sorority, & I'm not sure how much, if any involvement GF have in them.

So the new issue with the Ghetsis argument is that Lillie is both 4 years younger than the PLA protag and is portrayed as relatively fragile compared to other characters, so I’m not sure if she would even be able to scale to any Pokémon in this case. She was also scared to save Nebby from some bird Pokémon at the beginning the game, which further supports the “not all durability is equal thing” but also gives more question of if she should scale or not. Idk, what does everyone else think?

FWIW, were the Spearow not attacking her?
Also, would there be some blast radius or AoE thing going on with how Nebby's Teleport explosion which destroyed parts of the bridge may not have hurt her? (Maybe double check her cutscene behaviour, appearance &/or dialogue about that?)

 

[Omegabronic]

Tbh, i never really understood why we scaled all trainers to each other, it isn't like there is any "minimum power" that a char needs to fill to become a trainer

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Why would threatening Lillie scale him to Lugia?

Ah, sorry for not specifying. It would be using the assumption that every human scales to that Rocket member, since Lance’s Pokémon scale to the Tower Duo in Gen 2.

FWIW, part of the fear does come from how misunderstood Pokemon seem, with Pokemon trainers & Pokemon catching & humans generally forming friendships with Pokemon being uncommon at that era.

I think it was implied that Pokémon had hurt people before, but I don’t remember for sure so maybe it is just paranoia or something.

Also, does anyone have the footage of the Grunt who took a hit from Lance's Dragonite? I'd like to check it?

Here it is in both the original games and the remakes (At 43:30). It should also be noted that the Rocket Grunt is disguised as a Black Belt here, though I’m not sure if that accurately reflects their strength or if it’s entirely just a disguise.

FWIW, were the Spearow not attacking her?
Also, would there be some blast radius or AoE thing going on with how Nebby's Teleport explosion which destroyed parts of the bridge may not have hurt her? (Maybe double check her cutscene behaviour, appearance &/or dialogue about that?)

Lillie wasn’t on the bridge, although the protag was and was taking hits from the Spearow for Nebby so that’s a durability feat for them. That also means they were the closest to the epicentre of Nebby’s explosion, however since they weren’t shown to be affected by it at all I don’t think Nebby was trying to harm them with it.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh, i never really understood why we scaled all trainers to each other, it isn't like there is any "minimum power" that a char needs to fill to become a trainer

I think it was because in the anime and stuff “regular” people were consistently shown taking hits from varying levels of Pokémon, so the assumption was just that “oh, all regular people probably scale at a baseline”. In the games only though there seems to be varying levels of durability based on the general strength of the characters.

 

[Imaginym]

Ah, sorry for not specifying. It would be using the assumption that every human scales to that Rocket member, since Lance’s Pokémon scale to the Tower Duo in Gen 2.

Presumably because you need to beat Lance to become Champion Level & we assume the Legendaries are such...?
(Although, IIRC, I think Ho-Oh & Lugia can be encountered BEFORE becoming Champion.)

I think it was implied that Pokémon had hurt people before, but I don’t remember for sure so maybe it is just paranoia or something.

Could be worth checking. They do definitely treat expeditions with gravitas, & the player can be blacked out at the least by attacks.

Here it is in both the original games and the remakes (At 43:30). It should also be noted that the Rocket Grunt is disguised as a Black Belt here, though I’m not sure if that accurately reflects their strength or if it’s entirely just a disguise.

Thanks!

Lillie wasn’t on the bridge, although the protag was and was taking hits from the Spearow for Nebby so that’s a durability feat for them. That also means they were the closest to the epicentre of Nebby’s explosion, however since they weren’t shown to be affected by it at all I don’t think Nebby was trying to harm them with it.

I'm not sure Nebby's intent would be as relevant (Especially if it's early game & I'm not sure it was supposed to be that adept with its powers.) when there was still destruction nonetheless & Pokemon world humans do often get 9-C or 9-B Durability via feats, right?

In the games only though there seems to be varying levels of durability based on the general strength of the characters.

Other than training with their Pokemon, yeah.

Although, I think there may be some... feats by proxy/statements for Pokemon Trainers, IIRC, at least for abilities, going off entries for Pokemon like... I think Muk & Alakazam? (Ex: About the stench & headaches.)

IIRC, Phanpy warns about how it "can send you flying", but IDK if the Japanese version uses such phrasing, & IDK if survival is meant to be implied with that.

Could be worth consulting other sorts of entries of that sort & looking into other trainers who train with Pokemon.

(& also Kukui who survives Pokemon moves for his research.)

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Presumably because you need to beat Lance to become Champion Level & we assume the Legendaries are such...?
(Although, IIRC, I think Ho-Oh & Lugia can be encountered BEFORE becoming Champion.)

In the remakes you’re required to fight Ho-Oh/Lugia before taking on the league, and iirc you can choose to encounter them before the league in the originals too.

Could be worth checking. They do definitely treat expeditions with gravitas, & the player can be blacked out at the least by attacks.

Yeah I do think someone should check to make sure. I can maybe look tomorrow, but I can’t until then because I’ve gotta go sleep soon and it’ll take a little while to look.

I'm not sure Nebby's intent would be as relevant (Especially if it's early game & I'm not sure it was supposed to be that adept with its powers.) when there was still destruction nonetheless & Pokemon world humans do often get 9-C or 9-B Durability via feats, right?

I was thinking moreso that it selectively chose not to harm the protag, but yeah it doesn’t have much control over its powers so thinking about it it probably wouldn’t be able to do that. I don’t think it matters much either way though.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh tomorrow I might start a blog on where humans and their Pokémon should scale, since there seems to be some new developments here for the humans themselves and a lot of their profiles are pretty outdated in general.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I loosely remember some mentions of Deoxys maybe not being 5-B. Was that sorted out in the other thread or nah? If Deoxys and Mega Ray are still 5-B then should Mega Mewtwo also be 5-B, given base Mewtwo is scaling to the Weather Trio?

 

[Imaginym]

I loosely remember some mentions of Deoxys maybe not being 5-B. Was that sorted out in the other thread or nah? If Deoxys and Mega Ray are still 5-B then should Mega Mewtwo also be 5-B, given base Mewtwo is scaling to the Weather Trio?

I'm not sure how much the in-game meteor & its destruction got rated at -Dialogue & such should be checked- but could this have to do with how the meteor was said that'd it destroy the planet... in the manga continuity?

5-B could be a product of manga cross-scaling, but not 100% sure, as I don't keep up with Rayquaza's scaling chain very much.

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not sure how much the in-game meteor & its destruction got rated at -Dialogue & such should be checked- but could this have to do with how the meteor was said that'd it destroy the planet... in the manga continuity?

5-B could be a product of manga cross-scaling, but not 100% sure, as I don't keep up with Rayquaza's scaling chain very much.

I'm pretty sure a similar statement exists in the games. If not, Rayquaza and Deoxys would just scale to High 6-A off of Groudon

 

[koopa3144]

I'm working on a Cubone line profile revision cause they're important for featless legendary scaling, I'll probably also do more mons important for scaling like Abomasnow and Tyranitar soon.

 

[koopa3144]

I'm working on a Cubone line profile revision cause they're important for featless legendary scaling, I'll probably also do more mons important for scaling like Abomasnow and Tyranitar soon.

Lil update; I'm finishing up on the Abomasnow profile revision now, should I make a separate crt to apply the revisions or should I wait for this crt to conclude cause theses profiles are related to the new scaling?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbh tomorrow I might start a blog on where humans and their Pokémon should scale, since there seems to be some new developments here for the humans themselves and a lot of their profiles are pretty outdated in general.

Yeah so I kinda started this but then it eventually fizzled out due to a bunch of personal life reasons. The Pokémon scaling isn’t too bad rn, so I decided to just make a sandbox for anyone who wants to put any human feats they know of in there to make things easier for everyone. I put a few that I recalled from memory, but I haven’t linked the appropriate scans yet.

 

[CloverDragon03]

How did I end up no longer receiving notifications for this thread...?

Anyways, how come Ghetsis threatening to harm Lillie is a Low 7-B feat. Does Lillie have Low 7-B durability from something? Is she scaling from Elio/Selene?

 

[Imaginym]

How did I end up no longer receiving notifications for this thread...?

Anyways, how come Ghetsis threatening to harm Lillie is a Low 7-B feat. Does Lillie have Low 7-B durability from something? Is she scaling from Elio/Selene?

IDK if it's present in the games, but there's some humans with auras.

Psychics display telekinesis in their sprites. Several Psychics have Telepathy indicated by their dialogue. Sabrina, IIRC, foresaw the Gen 2 protagonist's arrival to battle her.

There are some good Stamina feats, IIRC, mostly for Black Belts & other athletics. 1 Black Belt, for example, swims around a small island every morning.

Most of the info I have is in a blog of mine.

Pokemon World Human stuff

vsbattles.fandom.com

But I haven't updated it in a while. There's stuff like Gym Leader info from Gen 5, stuff from Trainer's Eyes I went over recently, & probably other stuff.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

How did I end up no longer receiving notifications for this thread...?

Anyways, how come Ghetsis threatening to harm Lillie is a Low 7-B feat. Does Lillie have Low 7-B durability from something? Is she scaling from Elio/Selene?

Yeah scaling to them. I don’t think there’s any real reason for Lillie to be significantly weaker than Elio/Selene considering they’re around the same age and the latter is completely average.

 

[Lou_change]

What about Inver

 

[Ghengiroo115]

What about Inver

ORAS is set before XY, right? His dialogue in XY suggests he changes the type chart using his own psychic powers, so would this mean Inver created the Inverse-O-Matic first and then learned how to do it using his own power?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Are Psychics ever shown the ability to teleport in the games? Avery’s family considers him to be a disappointment due to only having the power of telekinesis and not more advanced psychic abilities like telepathy (which I already know some Psychic NPCs have) or teleportation. I’m reluctant to say every other Psychic should have those powers by default due to Avery coming from a family of Psychics (which may mean they have higher standards), but if teleportation is a relatively standard ability for Psychics then I guess it would be fine.

 

[Omegabronic]

How did I end up no longer receiving notifications for this thread...?

Anyways, how come Ghetsis threatening to harm Lillie is a Low 7-B feat. Does Lillie have Low 7-B durability from something? Is she scaling from Elio/Selene?

ig it is that whole "all trainers have the same durability" that we currently have although i never understood why we ever went with it

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah scaling to them. I don’t think there’s any real reason for Lillie to be significantly weaker than Elio/Selene considering they’re around the same age and the latter is completely average.

by that Logic Elio/Selene is of similar age to the Legends Arceus Protags.......you wanna give them Low 1-C Durability scaling?


i don't get it, yeah, they are of the same age..............so what? if one have superhuman feats then both being humans doesn't really matter as much anymore





edit: also btw.......what are we waiting for to continue again?

 

[Omegabronic]

Are Psychics ever shown the ability to teleport in the games? Avery’s family considers him to be a disappointment due to only having the power of telekinesis and not more advanced psychic abilities like telepathy (which I already know some Psychic NPCs have) or teleportation. I’m reluctant to say every other Psychic should have those powers by default due to Avery coming from a family of Psychics (which may mean they have higher standards), but if teleportation is a relatively standard ability for Psychics then I guess it would be fine.

i'm confused, isn't this thread to cover the scaling of the verse now that we can't cross scale between the medias? why discuss abilities here?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, best to save that for the general discussion thread or even another created thread. This is about the scaling of the Pokemon

 

[Ghengiroo115]

by that Logic Elio/Selene is of similar age to the Legends Arceus Protags.......you wanna give them Low 1-C Durability scaling?


i don't get it, yeah, they are of the same age..............so what? if one have superhuman feats then both being humans doesn't really matter as much anymore

1. Gonna be a bit pedantic here, but they’re not a similar age. Elio/Selene are 11 while Rei/Akari are “around” 15. To be clear I don’t think the age gap actually matters much, but yeah they’re not a similar age.
2. Rei/Akari get stronger over time, they’re not Low 1-C at the start (unless we wanna make every Hisui trainer, the frenzied Nobles, the Origin Formes and Giratina’s Altered Forme all Low 1-C).
3. Elio/Selene have no evidence for being superhuman relative to the rest of the verse. They’re portrayed as average in-verse so every other average/“normal” human should scale to them.

i'm confused, isn't this thread to cover the scaling of the verse now that we can't cross scale between the medias? why discuss abilities here?

Yeah, best to save that for the general discussion thread or even another created thread. This is about the scaling of the Pokemon

Ah wait, that’s true lol. I’ll save ability talk for some other time then. However the canon split doesn’t just affect the stats of Pokémon, so I don’t see the issue with talking about how humans should scale.

 

[Omegabronic]

1. Gonna be a bit pedantic here, but they’re not a similar age. Elio/Selene are 11 while Rei/Akari are “around” 15. To be clear I don’t think the age gap actually matters much, but yeah they’re not a similar age.

if your argument is "they are humans who similar ages, so they should scale relative" then that is also the case for Akari/Rei as adolecents shouldn't be much stronger then kids with just a 4 year age gap, besides, what feats to selene and elio even have for this to matter? are you talking about the murkrow they were helpless against?

1. Rei/Akari get stronger over time, they’re not Low 1-C at the start (unless we wanna make every Hisui trainer, the frenzied Nobles, the Origin Formes and Giratina’s Altered Forme all Low 1-C).

i will leave this discussion for later, but the fact that normal humans like them supposedly have the ability to "grow" to different levels of durability should tell you why "similar age" is not an argument when each individual would grow differently

1. Elio/Selene have no evidence for being superhuman relative to the rest of the verse. They’re portrayed as average in-verse so every other average/“normal” human should scale to them.

you talk as if they have feats of scaling to Pokemon in durability, if so, yeah, they would have, and pratically every character, including akari/rei are treated as normal humans, that is not a point, if you want to do a generalised scaling to all humans, you need consistency with numerous indivduals, which thanks to the split, we don't have

 

[Ghengiroo115]

besides, what feats to selene and elio even have for this to matter? are you talking about the murkrow they were helpless against?

They were Spearow but yes.

i will leave this discussion for later, but the fact that normal humans like them supposedly have the ability to "grow" to different levels of durability should tell you why "similar age" is not an argument when each individual would grow differently

The thing though is that they’re not normal. Even heavily trained fighters like Bea and that (probably outlier) Black Belt don’t show any forms of scaling above Tier 6, yet Rei/Akari show scaling to the strongest beings in the verse after a few months of exploration. Even with that later scaling though, they still cap at Low 7-B in their first venture outside of Jubilife Village and only reach higher levels at later points. If a seemingly normal kid is Low 7-B with no training and the eventually strongest human in the verse is Low 7-B with no training, then why shouldn’t everyone else be Low 7-B? Let’s not forget that humans also used to be classified as Pokémon in-verse. Why should all regular untrained Pikachu be the same strength but all regular untrained humans shouldn’t, especially when the general assumption in both real life and most forms of fiction is that regular members of a species are comparable?

 

[Lou_change]

we don't have

I think we would know if their worlds equivalent to sparrows were known to be capable of serious maiming people

 

[Omegabronic]

The thing though is that they’re not normal. Even heavily trained fighters like Bea and that (probably outlier) Black Belt don’t show any forms of scaling above Tier 6, yet Rei/Akari show scaling to the strongest beings in the verse after a few months of exploration. Even with that later scaling though, they still cap at Low 7-B in their first venture outside of Jubilife Village and only reach higher levels at later points.

you talked about how "in verse" Elio/Selene are treated as normal humans......well. so is Hikari/Rei, they are equally treated as normal humans by everyone, what you are talking about is the same as me, they have greater feats........so you are agreeing with me that "feats" matter more in this case

If a seemingly normal kid is Low 7-B with no training and the eventually strongest human in the verse is Low 7-B with no training, then why shouldn’t everyone else be Low 7-B?

we have no idea about Akari/Rei's past, to say they have no training is a baseless assumption, the entire point of you needing training to scale, as you are saying they need in the upper part, shows that not every human scales to one another, heck in Sun/Moon Elio/Selene goes to protect cosmog from the wild pokemon while Lillie is terrified without being able to do anything, and even then Elio/Selene are helpless to do anything against the murkrow at all, yet normal humans scale to one another in power due to numerous times a human hurt/threaten another in the games, there is NOTHING that suggests that all human are equals all the time and i have no idea why you are assuming that this is a solid lore stated thing

Let’s not forget that humans also used to be classified as Pokémon in-verse. Why should all regular untrained Pikachu be the same strength but all regular untrained humans shouldn’t

.......they aren't......why....why do you think they are? no, we rate them here based on the best example of said species, there is nothing saying all pokemon of the same species are comparable to one another always either, case and point, numerous second stage mons fighting in third level opponents teams with numerous gym leaders, example: Clair's Dragonairs, now of course, that is with a trainer's training, but that is the point, training, not every human has the same training, not every human is equal or comparable, i don't know why you are thinking they are when that is not the case even in real life

especially when the general assumption in both real life and most forms of fiction is that regular members of a species are comparable?

that is.........only partially true, is Mike Tyson comparable to a 10 year old child because both are "humans"? no, you understand what i mean?

 

[Omegabronic]

I think we would know if their worlds equivalent to sparrows were known to be capable of serious maiming people

......i don't see how this correlates to that phrase you quoted at all

 

[Ghengiroo115]

you talked about how "in verse" Elio/Selene are treated as normal humans......well. so is Hikari/Rei, they are equally treated as normal humans by everyone, what you are talking about is the same as me, they have greater feats........so you are agreeing with me that "feats" matter more in this case

It doesn’t really matter how other humans treat them at the beginning of the game, of course they’re gonna assume a seemingly normal kid is normal. I’m talking about how high they scale and how quickly they increase in power compared to the rest of the verse. Rei/Akari go from Tier 7 to Tier 6 to Tier 2 to Tier 1 in a pretty short amount of time with no real training, whereas hard working fighters like Bea or the Black Black that tanks a Hyper Beam are shown to cap at Tier 6. This alone proves that Rei/Akari are unique in the sense that they increase in strength very quickly, regardless of any character’s biased first impression of them is. Elio/Selene have nothing that suggests they are superior to any regular human, as their one feat isn’t treated as anything impressive from an in-verse scaling standpoint. Lillie doesn’t even acknowledge the Spearow stuff outside of “thanking for helping out”.

In fact both Lillie and the Galaxy Team behaving as if their respective protagonists are “normal” is a point in favour to me, since that means it’s considered normal for a child with (at least to both their and our knowledge) no reason to be strong to survive a physical confrontation with early route Pokémon.

we have no idea about Akari/Rei's past, to say they have no training is a baseless assumption, the entire point of you needing training to scale, as you are saying they need in the upper part, shows that not every human scales to one another, heck in Sun/Moon Elio/Selene goes to protect cosmog from the wild pokemon while Lillie is terrified without being able to do anything, and even then Elio/Selene are helpless to do anything against the murkrow at all, yet normal humans scale to one another in power due to numerous times a human hurt/threaten another in the games, there is NOTHING that suggests that all human are equals all the time and i have no idea why you are assuming that this is a solid lore stated thing

.......they aren't......why....why do you think they are? no, we rate them here based on the best example of said species, there is nothing saying all pokemon of the same species are comparable to one another always either, case and point, numerous second stage mons fighting in third level opponents teams with numerous gym leaders, example: Clair's Dragonairs, now of course, that is with a trainer's training, but that is the point, training, not every human has the same training, not every human is equal or comparable, i don't know why you are thinking they are when that is not the case even in real life

that is.........only partially true, is Mike Tyson comparable to a 10 year old child because both are "humans"? no, you understand what i mean?

Ummm… I’m only talking about the base average level of humans. I’m not trying to compare Mike Tyson to a 10 year old, I’m trying to compare a 10 year old to a 10 year old. I’m not sure if one or both of us have gotten confused here.

we have no idea about Akari/Rei's past, to say they have no training is a baseless assumption

I mean it’s not entirely baseless, we know they’re regular wild Pokémon level at the start but then become Creation level at the end from just exploring. If Rei/Akari had any noticeable amount of training prior to the game, then shouldn’t they be way stronger considering how quickly they grow during the game?

 

[Lou_change]

......i don't see how this correlates to that phrase you quoted at all

You suggest we don't have evidence humans should be durable enough to survive Pokémon but the fact a flock of birds that could individually vaporize an irl human are treated as a problem about as seriously as normal animals in our world.