Pokémon God Tiers: Several revisions

[Sniper670]

That has and will always be headcanon.

 

[omegabronic]

That has and will always be headcanon.

Huh, i could swear that it had a statement like this somewhere, oh well forget it then

 

[StrymULTRA]

As much as I love to wank the hell out of Arceus and the CT I've got to ask you all, doesn't Origin Forms of Dialga and Palkia debunk True Forms? Since Origin Forms are confirmed to be their True Appearance

...maybe if you paid more attention to the lore instead of just looking to the VBW profiles you'd already got it by now.

"True Forms" is just a fanon name we took to describe their omnipresent self. We should pick a different name though.

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah. Show me where in lore the CT has "Omnipresent" forms.

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere for Dialga and Palkia

 

[NeoZex6399]

Origin Dialga and Palkia are what Origin Giratina is to Giratina.
(It makes sense for them to look like horses, because of the whole thing about being alter egos of Arceus and such.)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah. Show me where in lore the CT has "Omnipresent" forms.

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere for Dialga and Palkia

So you're telling me that the concept of time isn't omnipresent?

 

[Sniper670]

So you're telling me that the concept of time isn't omnipresent?

I'm saying neither Dialga nor Palkia are literally time and space respectively.

They have no omnipresent forms

 

[NeoZex6399]

If the flow of time is Dialga's heartbeat, then logically the heart itself is time.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm saying neither Dialga nor Palkia are literally time and space respectively.

They have no omnipresent forms

...you know that if they are time and space, they have to be omnipresent, right?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

So you're telling me that the concept of time isn't omnipresent?

Them being time and space is simply a cool way of saying that they are space and time manipulators not that they embody the very concept of time and space itself same goes for Giratina it being the distortion world comes from a statement made by a guy who was shown to be unreliable

 

[StrymULTRA]

Them being time and space is simply a cool way of saying that they are space and time manipulators not that they embody the very concept of time and space itself same goes for Giratina it being the distortion world comes from a statement made by a guy who was shown to be unreliable

"Saying that Character is X doesn't make you embodiment of X"

Genius interpretation.

 

[Sniper670]

Well, they'll get Type 2 AE for being the embodiments, which still wouldn't work because they'd need evidence of regeneration as long as that concept exists.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

"Saying that Character is X doesn't make you embodiment of X"

Because you'll need more proof than this, simple as that

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, they'll get Type 2 AE for being the embodiments, which still wouldn't work because they'd need evidence of regeneration as long as that concept exists.

Call @ProfessorKukui4Life and @The_real_cal_howard they're the ones who started that trend.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Well, they'll get Type 2 AE for being the embodiments, which still wouldn't work because they'd need evidence of regeneration as long as that concept exists.

Yup as stated in the Abstract existence page :

"....Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction...."

 

[Sniper670]

Cool. So there will be no immortality or regen, just control. Kill them once and that's it

 

[JooCipher]

As much as I love to wank the hell out of Arceus and the CT I've got to ask you all, doesn't Origin Forms of Dialga and Palkia debunk True Forms? Since Origin Forms are confirmed to be their True Appearance

not really

Giratina has an Origin Form and he is actually the Distortion World itself

 

[Dragonite007]

not really

Giratina has an Origin Form and he is actually the Distortion World itself

Dead link

 

[Sniper670]

not really

Giratina has an Origin Form and he is actually the Distortion World itself

That's a very unreliable statement for a guy who went there for the first time and also that doesn't apply to Dialga and Palkia as with those two, we have a different explanation for them. Ie. Their "Origin" Forms are their True Appearances

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Giratina has an Origin Form and he is actually the Distortion World itself

Already explained that :

Them being time and space is simply a cool way of saying that they are space and time manipulators not that they embody the very concept of time and space itself same goes for Giratina it being the distortion world comes from a statement made by a guy who was shown to be unreliable

Not only he's unreliable but he had no way of knowing whatever Giratina is the distortion world itself or not it's pretty clear that he's talking out of his ass and that's the problem with Pokemon in general in this wiki since we're using vague and hyperbolic statements to upgrade pokemons, using pokedex statements about Pokemons performing "X" tier feat with no context or time frame given,..... etc

 

[y3p_owo]

Excuse me, but how is Cyrus unreliable?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Excuse me, but how is Cyrus unreliable?

Was shown to be wrong on multiple occasions and as I said he had no way of knowing whatever Giratina is the distortion world or not

 

[y3p_owo]

Was shown to be wrong on multiple occasions

Such as...?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Such as...?

Claiming that defeating or capturing Giratina would make the distortion world disappear which was shown to be wrong..... Claimed that Giratina is the distortion world (I wonder how did he know that ) and yet he claims that Giratina made the distortion world (I guess Giratina created itself),......etc

 

[Sniper670]

In addition, his statement has never been supported by any media whatsoever and in fact every threat targeted at his "physical form" has been an actual threat that is detrimental to the existence of the Distortion World. Ie. His Avatar's death is a threat to his True Form?

I think it was meant to say that Giratina is intrinsically tied to the D world rather, not literally the Distortion World in a "True Form" sense

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I think it was meant to say that Giratina is intrinsically tied to the D world rather, not literally the Distortion World in a "True Form" sense

He'd still have no way of knowing that anyway it's pretty clear that he's just talking out of his ass

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah no. Dialga and Palkia are absolutely time and space literally respectively.

I completely disagree with taking that away

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Yeah no. Dialga and Palkia are absolutely time and space literally respectively.

I completely disagree with taking that away

You disagree doesn't make it right

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

and in fact every threat targeted at his "physical form" has been an actual threat that is detrimental to the existence of the Distortion World. Ie. His Avatar's death is a threat to his True Form?

When has any of the bolded out happened?

By the way, for the point on Dialga and Palkia not being their literal concepts/realms, the anime also goes against this. Because when Cyrus summoned them to Spear Pillar with the red chain, we literally see them be summoned as non-corporeal figures with parts of their dimension being summoned forth before the red chain made them physical and fully summoned into the regular universe.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also arguing that their physical forms is their true self is completely dumb as every catridge is canonically a different timeline, meaning that there are many Dialga/Palkia there.

You're essentially implying that each universe has its own Creation Trio that has made it.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Because when Cyrus summoned them to Spear Pillar with the red chain, we literally see them be summoned as non-corporeal figures with parts of their dimension being summoned forth before the red chain made them physical and fully summoned into the regular universe.

Then they'll get incorporeality just like Arceus simple as that

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Then they'll get incorporeality simple as that

And that’s wrong.

Dumbing it down to incorporeality (which doesn’t even make sense as that implies the creation trio are originally spiritual entities, which is wrong in every way you can think of) doesn’t disprove the fact they were being summoned as parts of their dimension with the red chain.

Even Jewel of Life also helps to prove this, at least for Dialga. Dialgas physical avatar was knocked out for half the movie after getting drastically beaten down by Arceus, and despite being passed out, Dialga was still able to move Ash & his friends backward and forward through time. He even became immediately aware of the past being changed and brought them back to their original time, all while his Avatar was out of commission

The only way that’s possible is if Dialga isn’t just limited to a physical avatar, as already suggested.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plus nothing says that they are embodiments of time.

The Original Myth describes them are straight up being those things themselves.

 

[Sniper670]

No theyre not.

There's literally a huge blog with all the information that exists for the CT and nowhere was it implied they'd some omnipresent beings. They're just two Pokémon who can control time and space that's it.

Here's the blog. Give one evidence that points to the CT being omnipresent

 

[StrymULTRA]

Here's the blog. Give one evidence that points to the CT being omnipresent

Also arguing that their physical forms is their true self is completely dumb as every catridge is canonically a different timeline, meaning that there are many Dialga/Palkia there.

You're essentially implying that each universe has its own Creation Trio that has made it.

So I guess there are infinite versions of the CT.

 

[Sniper670]

Yes. Based on the material we've been given from the franchise itself, there are infinite CTs

Nothing supports your omnipresence beyond "that must mean that........ Inserts Headcannon"

 

[StrymULTRA]

Infinite CTs
A single Palkia created the multiverse

Yeah no.

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah no.

That's fine. It doesn't make sense but it seems you didn't understand me.

1. Every material supports there being infinite CTs. Player can literally have several. In fact Team Rainbow Rocket Cyrus has one(or two of the CT) while there's one in the universe he was pulled into.

2. Nothing supports Omnipresence for Dialga and Palkia.



Even if you think there's one Dialga, that doesn't make him omnipresent.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No theyre not.

There's literally a huge blog with all the information that exists for the CT and nowhere was it implied they'd some omnipresent beings. They're just two Pokémon who can control time and space that's it.

Here's the blog. Give one evidence that points to the CT being omnipresent

Literally everything mentioned prior in this thread equates to omnipresence. A lack of a direct omnipresence statement =/= they aren’t such

Being time and space literally is enough for that and the former has evidence for that.

 

[Sniper670]

Literally everything mentioned prior in this thread equates to omnipresence. A lack of a direct omnipresence statement =/= they aren’t such

Being time and space literally is enough for that and the former has evidence for that.

And yet they're not. You keep saying it as if they're some Abstract Omnipresent beings when that has never been implied within the series

To make matters worse, GF straight up calls their origin forms(Dialga and Palkia) their true Appearances

Where is the Omnipresence. The burden of proof is on you...