The_Yellow_Topaz
She/Her- 1,386
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INTRODUCTION
Hello to you!This thread is trying to discuss and argue that the current rating of 2-A of the Pokémon God Tiers do not have sufficient evidence to be indexed as likely, or arguably, not even possibly
I will try to summarize the reason why 2-A is being considered, and then argue why I believe it shouldn't be interpreted the way it's currently is.
I'd like to ask you to keep an open mind, as I will be accepting a compromise of "possibly' if that comes to the debate. I am not also planning on stonewall, nor push this through your opinions, so there will not be a need to be hostile towards me, or the thread, as it's been done in good faith. I honestly believe that the evidence presented by the blog we use is misinterpreted
With that in mind, let us start!!!
WHY 2-A IS ACCEPTED
- Please refer to the following blog: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ProfessorKukui4Life/2-A_Pokemon_Cosmology_Blog
This argues that the time and space of the Pokemon Multiverse is infinite based on the fact that Masuda himself has stated that Infinite Time and Infinite Space exist within Pokemon.
Masuda: "[...] Infinite time and infinite space — that to me is the ‘ultimate.'"
This point is working as support evidence for the following arguments.
This argues that every individual game in itself is a canonical universe in the grand multiverse of Pokemon.
"There's the fact that any Pokémon that comes from a cartridge from an older generation has the description "seems to have traveled across space and time to reach you from the X region". Same thing goes with the Gen 7/8 games and Pokémon GO."
Alongside some more evidence that this is the case
This point is again, supporting evidence for the next points.
This gives evidence that every possibility, choice from anyone create a different branch in the timeline, making countless universes in the grand multiverse
"This starts with the fact that, in the anime, it's stated that any possibility creates a parallel universe, following what M.W.I does."
"In ORAS, the Delta episode alludes to different universes bringing different possibilities from Zinnia's comment about the Dimensional Shifter and we can see a universe for each possibility too."
This is arguing that there's an countless amount of universes in the Pokemon universe.
"And as another smaller supporting point, Space in Pokémon is also considered ever-expanding dimensions that infinitely expand, and since in this context they mean parallel universes, it further supports the M.W.I theory being a concept in Pokemon. The Original Story also refers to this being parallel universes when detailing the creation of the Cosmology"
This acts as a bridge between two of the evidences, M.W.I and the infinite space statements.
"Aside from Masuda's statement in section 1 of the blog, there are several reasons why the Countless statement of the previous part means actually Infinite."
"The Trading Card Game (which is accepted here) alludes to the existence of Infinite Space:
"Lucian, one of the Sinnoh Elite 4, claims the existence of Infinite Space when reading through Sinnoh Lore in Canalave Library"
This argues that the countless nature of M.W.I is actually infinite because of these statements, as well as the "countless ultra space" statement.
This summarizes the main points about why 2-A is even accepted here. I'll now explain the mistake of the core argument.
WHY 2-A SHOULDN'T BE ACCEPTED
If you read all these arguments, you realize that the point the original blog is trying to make is, every possibility makes a new universe, and since there is an infinite amount of space and time, and because Space means "parallel universe", there is an infinite amount of timelines.
This line of reasoning is deeply flawed and lacks logical coherence.
The blog in question erroneously attempts to establish a causal relationship between assertions about spatial infinity and the theory of multiple worlds, without any substantive basis for such a connection. It fails to recognize that these two concepts are separate and self-contained, devoid of any intrinsic interaction. By erroneously conflating the two, the blog commits a logical fallacy and distorts the integrity of the arguments presented.
These claims regarding infinite space are not only rendered invalid for their intended purpose but are also fraught with logical inconsistencies. Take, for instance, the quote attributed to Lucian.
"...Ah, hello. You’re here to read, too? Books are wonderful things. The thoughts of people written in books stretch beyond time and space. I was just reading a collection of letters written by an artist long ago. More precisely, they were written to the artist's younger brother. 'The stars above tantalize from across infinite space. Feeling their gaze from so far away, I am charmed again by life.' The artist must have come to a conclusion seeing the night sky... It's an affirmation of life. It's very moving. I imagine we'll see each other again at the Pokémon League. Take care."
Not only does this statement is presented by Lucian himself as a reflection on life, employing poetic language, but it is also unsuitable as valid evidence for logical reasons.
"The artist must have come to a conclusion seeing the night sky... It's an affirmation of life. It's very moving."
First and foremost, it fails to establish a compelling connection to the infinite multiverse as it unquestionably pertains to a single physical universe, devoid of any reference to the expansive multiverse. Lucian explicitly states that the artist's conclusion was derived from contemplating the night sky. Thus, its relevance to the subject matter at hand remains questionable.
Moreover, it is worth noting that this assertion originates from an artist who contemplated his own life under the moon's glow. It goes without saying that an arbitrary hipster from the past lacks the credentials to make substantiated claims about astronomy. The absence of formal training or expertise in astrophysics renders this statement invalid. It holds no scientific weight and fails to meet the rigorous standards required for credible evidence. This is not valid, and it is no different from you or me making these assertions casually. Do you think science would use this as evidence? No.
Another crucial point I'd like to address is the sheer fallacy of claiming that the term "space" signifies or is synonymous with "parallel universes." None of the evidence presented supports such a claim. Let's analyze the excerpt from the "Original Story":
"In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos.At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.From itself, two beings the Original One did make.Time started to spin. Space began to expand.From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep..."
Nowhere in this passage is there even a hint that the term "space" signifies parallel universes. Furthermore, it is important to note that these parallel universes also required the passage of time mentioned in the preceding sentence. Thus, to assert that isolated space alone could be synonymous with parallel universes is a glaring logical leap.
To be frank, I have no clue if there is any evidence supporting the notion that the entire multiverse was created simultaneously. If not, this assertion becomes utterly futile. This is due to the fact that the same blog claims that it is choices that give rise to parallel universes. Consequently, at the inception of the universe, there would not be potentially infinite choices being made by sentient beings on a universal scale.
Moreover, space exists within all parallel universes that commenced their expansion. Merely alluding to this fact by mentioning space does not transform the term "space" in isolation into a synonym for "parallel universes." The statement merely denotes that the space within these universes began to expand. It serves no substantial purpose.
Now let's delve into the assertion that states space refers to dimensions:
" Space is ever-expanding dimensions that infinitely expand "
This pertains to cardinal dimensions, spatial axes, not parallel dimensions. This is further substantiated in Legends Arceus, as indicated in the Pokédex entry
There is nothing here that supports the notion that space corresponds to parallel dimensions
Ahem, this particular section of the Pokédex will hold significance for us later on
Finally, I'd like to discuss what is undoubtedly the strongest point used as evidence. Strongest from the perspective of the blog, in this case. All the previous arguments serve solely to support the idea that this argument is relevant to the conversation when it truly isn't. The blog cites evidence of infinite space and infinite time in terms of size, and claims that this proves a quantity of infinite spacetimes. But, well, that's not quite right.
Occam's Razor states that, all else being equal, explanations with fewer entities or fewer kinds of entities are to be preferred over those with more.
To refute this, I just need an explanation that is less extraordinary and makes fewer assumptions than the one presented by the blog, as long as it satisfies the intended meaning of the statement.
The blog interprets that "there is an infinite quantity of universes, therefore, an infinite quantity of space, and an infinite quantity of time, fulfilling the assertion."
The problem is that "space" doesn't necessarily refer to the multiverse. And before you mention it, pointing out the evidence I responded to regarding space in the multiversal context doesn't work. I also provided, and the blog also presented, instances where the term "space" referred solely to the physical space of a single universe, such as the artist's citation or the Pokedex entry. It's not in the context that you want just because you want it.
I don't think a game developer would refer to the multiverse using the term "space" instead of simply saying "multiverse" or "multiple worlds."
Here's my simpler interpretation that aligns with the evidence of infinite velocity and also satisfies Masuda's citation:
"Every universe is infinite in size, and time will endure forever."
There you have it. The High 3-A interpretation is sufficient to satisfy the citation. It is simpler, less extraordinary, and doesn't contradict anything. A 2-B multiverse with each universe being infinite in size also fulfills the citation. Remember, it was the ACCEPTED blog that claimed that "infinities" have different sizes, so you can't assert that Masuda was referring to a larger infinity than the basic one commonly used by us.
TL;DR: The line of reasoning is flawed and lacks logical coherence. The blog attempts to establish a causal relationship between assertions about spatial infinity and the theory of multiple worlds without substantive evidence. The blog conflates separate concepts, commits logical fallacies, and distorts arguments. The quote from Lucian fails to provide evidence for the infinite multiverse as it refers to a single physical universe. The blog's reliance on an artist's reflection on life lacks credibility and scientific validity. The claim that "space" is synonymous with "parallel universes" lacks support. The assertion that space refers to dimensions pertains to cardinal dimensions, not parallel dimensions. Occam's Razor suggests simpler explanations should be preferred. The interpretation that every universe is infinitely sized and time will endure satisfies the evidence and is less extraordinary. It is important to consider the context in which the term "space" is used and not assume it refers solely to the multiverse.
CONCLUSION
- All the 2-A of the Pokemon universe are downgraded to 2-B definitely. Or Likely 2-A is downgraded to Possibly 2-A
AGREE: @ImmortalDread
DISAGREE:
NEUTRAL: @ShionAH
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