Pokémon God Tiers: Several revisions

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And yet they're not. You keep saying it as if they're some Abstract Omnipresent beings when that has never been implied within the series

Not implied to you maybe. Everyone else, it is.

To make matters worse, GF straight up calls their origin forms(Dialga and Palkia) their true Appearances

Which can easily also be interpreted as the true forms of their avatars, as much so as Groudon and Kyogres primal forms are theirs.

Either way, this isn’t a debunk.

Where is the Omnipresence. The burden of proof is on you...

Like I said, the above replies have mentioned several points that qualify as omnipresence.

 

[Sniper670]

Not implied to you maybe. Everyone else, it is.

I've read Dialga/Palkia profile, and funny enough there's no justification.

But of course there's not. Because there's no proof of it

Which can easily also be interpreted as the true forms of their avatars, as much so as Groudon and Kyogres primal forms are theirs.

You're reaching.

"It can easily also be interpreted.... "

Excuse me, first of all, you have no leg to stand on to support your omnipresence in the first place. And there no other interpretation. It's clear cut, verbatim that's their True Appearance. No room for wild interpretation. And certainly not true forms of their avatar (where's this from tho? )

Like I said, the above replies have mentioned several points that qualify as omnipresence.

With 0 scans. I've linked an entire blog and nothing says omnipresent CT, in fact much of the evidence points to the contrary. I don't know what you're talking about

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I've read Dialga/Palkia profile, and funny enough there's no justification.

And like Strym said before, this is your first mistake here by only going off the pages.

This at best means the pages need to include more evidence.

You're reaching.

No…I don’t think so

Excuse me, first of all, you have no leg to stand on to support your omnipresence in the first place.

And I do. Read the above replies

And there no other interpretation. It's clear cut, verbatim that's their True Appearance.

And true appearance doesn’t % have to mean what your trying to say it means.

It can also just mean the origin forms are the way their physical avatars are originally supposed to appear as.

Or as @NeoZex6399 pointed out earlier, the forms are to them as what Origin Forme Giratina is.

This is also, by the way, the same franchise where even weakening the balance of time and disrupting it caused Dialga to obtain a different form as Primal Dialga too.

There is more than one meaning to this besides the interpretation you specifically want or believe in

With 0 scans. I've linked an entire blog and nothing says omnipresent CT, in fact much of the evidence points to the contrary. I don't know what you're talking about

With as much discussion as we have with the anime and movies, you should know what I’m referring to. But okay, I will send scans to show what I’m speaking about soon enough.

 

[JooCipher]

No theyre not.

There's literally a huge blog with all the information that exists for the CT and nowhere was it implied they'd some omnipresent beings. They're just two Pokémon who can control time and space that's it.

Here's the blog. Give one evidence that points to the CT being omnipresent

there is literally a part in this blog where Dialga is said to be time itself

 

[Sniper670]

there is literally a part in this blog where Dialga is said to be time itself

Send the scan

 

[JooCipher]

Send the scan

The more you think about it, the more mysterious the concept of time is. Here is one hint called Dialga. Time began to move in the moment it was born, in a sense Dialga is time. Such a concept seems to exist in the Sinnoh region, which is also the reason why Dialga is revered as a god. If you are going to be late, why not ask Dialga for help?

 

[Sniper670]

1. "In a sense" already debunks the fact that he's literally time itself.

2. His existence is taken independently of Time itself. Ie. He's not time he came into existence and time followed

3. It's from Super Smash Brothers. Non canon

 

[JooCipher]

1. "In a sense" already debunks the fact that he's literally time itself.

2. His existence is taken independently of Time itself. Ie. He's not time he came into existence and time followed

3. It's from Super Smash Brothers. Non canon

" He's not time he came into existence and time followed"

uh no? Dialga's birth and the start of time are simultaneous things

 

[Sniper670]

Because time moves when Dialga's heart beats. Not that Dialga is an Omnipresent being

 

[omegabronic]

Not implied to you maybe. Everyone else, it is.

Ngl, i am also not seeing it very clearly, being the representation of time doesn't make you literraly omnipresently time itself

Which can easily also be interpreted as the true forms of their avatars, as much so as Groudon and Kyogres primal forms are theirs.

Has they ever being stated to have avatars or a "true form" of sorts?

Yeah no.

i mean, isn't this case similar with the jotho trio were legend says that there is only 3 yet we can clearly see several individuals?

 

[JooCipher]

Because time moves when Dialga's heart beats. Not that Dialga is an Omnipresent being

-the flow of time and dialga's heart beats are one in the same
-So how is it? is there an og dialga who started everything and multiple copies of it or just a single dialga?

 

[Sniper670]

-the flow of time and dialga's heart beats are one in the same

My heartbeat regulating time doesn't make me omnipresent, nor large size nor abstract.

It's no different from a device that can have the same functionality. It doesn't make that devise anything of the three

-So how is it? is there an og dialga who started everything and multiple copies of it or just a single dialga?

That's information we don't know yet. certainly doesn't imply omnipresence tho

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Ngl, i am also not seeing it very clearly, being the representation of time doesn't make you literraly omnipresently time itself

How does it literally not? The principal is quite simple to understand. If you are time, you are omnipresent throughout it.

There’s no other way to take that then what it is.

Has they ever being stated to have avatars or a "true form" of sorts?

From Legends IIRC through Arceus at least, and the Eternal Battle Reviere.

However, my point from this was that this statement on “true appearance” (appearance) can also be interpreted as the original forms of Dialga/Palkias physical avatars and that the forms we’ve seen prior to Legends are just weaker versions when not using the Adamant/Lustrous crystals. Just like, for instance, the Primal forms of Groudon and Kyogre are their original states and their non-primal states are weaker versions when not using the orbs to invoke primal reversion.

i mean, isn't this case similar with the jotho trio were legend says that there is only 3 yet we can clearly see several individuals?

This is a false comparison. We’ve never seen more than one of the Johto trio simultaneously in the same world.

But more importantly

The creation trios origins are much more unique since their origins predate literally all of existence and the original story clearly made the point that there weren’t “multiples” of the true CT or Lake Trio, besides the physical avatars we see interact with the multiverse

 

[omegabronic]

How does it literally not? The principal is quite simple to understand. If you are time, you are omnipresent throughout it.

There’s no other way to take that then what it is.

You showed proof that he is the representation of time yes, but what about the omnipresent part? You being said to be something doesn't nescesaraly mean that you exist through all of it

From Legends IIRC through Arceus at least, and the Eternal Battle Reviere.

yes, for arceus, what about the trio of creation?

However, my point from this was that this statement on “true appearance” (appearance) can also be interpreted as the original forms of Dialga/Palkias physical avatars and that the forms we’ve seen prior to Legends are just weaker versions when not using the Adamant/Lustrous crystals. Just like, for instance, the Primal forms of Groudon and Kyogre are their original states and their non-primal states are weaker versions when not using the orbs to invoke primal reversion.

you would need to show evidence that they use "avatars" in the first place tho

This is a false comparison. We’ve never seen more than one of the Johto trio simultaneously in the same world.

In The main timeline we can catch a raikou just for the battle frontier to also have one, plus this also applies to the regis, you can capture them, yet a battle frontier also has all 3 of them

But more importantly

The creation trios origins are much more unique since their origins predate literally all of existence and the original story clearly made the point that there weren’t “multiples” of the true CT or Lake Trio, besides the physical avatars we see interact with the multiverse

Again, what is the evidence that they use "avatars" was that ever officially stated?

 

[y3p_owo]

You showed proof that he is the representation of time yes, but what about the omnipresent part? You being said to be something doesn't nescesaraly mean that you exist through all of it

I think your thinking of Sniper. I don't recall Kuikui saying that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You showed proof that he is the representation of time yes, but what about the omnipresent part? You being said to be something doesn't nescesaraly mean that you exist through all of it

Except it kinda does? In this scenerio, this is a “either you are or you arent” situation. Dialga being time means everything that time makes up would also be him since…he is time.

There’s no inbetweens for that, he is either time or isn’t time

yes, for arceus, what about the trio of creation?

That I’m not sure. But we don’t need a specific statement on them being considered Avatars in order to consider them such.

For the CT, they’re more “show rather than tell” as multiple points of evidence has shown before that they’re not just limited to physical forms.

-Parts of their dimensions being summoned as non-corporeal masses when summoning them at Spear Pillar

-Dialgas avatar having passed out and going unconscious when fighting Arceus in Jewel of Life, yet Dialga was still capable of moving Ash & his friends forward and backwards through time and even being immediately aware of what happened in the past so he could know when to time dump them back to their time period

Things like that, which would be impossible unless the CTs true forms are not limited to their physical selves.

In The main timeline we can catch a raikou just for the battle frontier to also have one, plus this also applies to the regis, you can capture them, yet a battle frontier also has all 3 of them

Uh, isn’t the Battle Frontier originally Gen 3? That would be a different game universe from the Gen 2 games.

 

[omegabronic]

Except it kinda does? In this scenerio, this is a “either you are or you arent” situation. Dialga being time means everything that time makes up would also be him since…he is time.

There’s no inbetweens for that, he is either time or isn’t time


That I’m not sure. But we don’t need a specific statement on them being considered Avatars in order to consider them such.

For the CT, they’re more “show rather than tell” as multiple points of evidence has shown before that they’re not just limited to physical forms.

-Parts of their dimensions being summoned as non-corporeal masses when summoning them at Spear Pillar

-Dialgas avatar having passed out and going unconscious when fighting Arceus in Jewel of Life, yet Dialga was still capable of moving Ash & his friends forward and backwards through time and even being immediately aware of what happened in the past so he could know when to time dump them back to their time period

Things like that, which would be impossible unless the CTs true forms are not limited to their physical selves.

I honestly can see it now, but meh, i still feel like that is a little low? But i won't fight over it for that

Uh, isn’t the Battle Frontier originally Gen 3? That would be a different game universe from the Gen 2 games.

This is why i used the regi trio as an example also

 

[Sniper670]

Except it kinda does? In this scenerio, this is a “either you are or you arent” situation. Dialga being time means everything that time makes up would also be him since…he is time.

There’s no inbetweens for that, he is either time or isn’t time

He is not time.

He is a Pokémon who's heartbeat regulates time somehow

That I’m not sure. But we don’t need a specific statement on them being considered Avatars in order to consider them such.

I thought you said you had scans to support your claim

For the CT, they’re more “show rather than tell” as multiple points of evidence has shown before that they’re not just limited to physical forms.

But this has nothing to do with the Omnipresence, Large Size and Abstract Existence tho

-Parts of their dimensions being summoned as non-corporeal masses when summoning them at Spear Pillar

Cool. It was a visual. Just as recalling a Pokémon in a Pokéball is visualized as non-corporeal masses of energy

-Dialgas avatar having passed out and going unconscious when fighting Arceus in Jewel of Life, yet Dialga was still capable of moving Ash & his friends forward and backwards through time and even being immediately aware of what happened in the past so he could know when to time dump them back to their time period

Nope. That was Dialga from the future(or future. One of them)

Things like that, which would be impossible unless the CTs true forms are not limited to their physical selves.

Cool. Making bold claims with no evidence or lore to support it I see

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Cool. It was a visual. Just as recalling a Pokémon in a Pokéball is visualized as non-corporeal masses of energy

Lmao. Nice counter argument, truly well detailed

But, no. This point is a copout, and very much is not “just a visual”. They were non corporal dimensional constructs, literally summoned forth from the actual portals the red chain made to their respective dimensions.



What also proves this to not just be a “visual” is them coming forth as that was an actual part of the summoning process that wasn’t yet completed. This is proven by the fact that both of them started vanishing when the Lake Trio were freed from Cyrus’s control, forcing him to take active measures with the red chain in order to have Dialga and Palkia be fully manifested out of that state.

Nope. That was Dialga from the future(or future. One of them)

You do realize that’s the Dialga I’m talking about here, right? Dialga in the future is unconscious because of Arceus wailing on it. He’s knocked out while Palkia and Giratina were left to fend Arceus off.

Dialga being able to access different time periods to send Ash and the group backward/forward through time, being aware of different events throughout time, and knowing when to send Ash and the group forward/backward through time

All while physically passed out from battle

Makes no sense if Dialga was limited just to a physical body. The only way this is possible is if Dialgas true form, as suggested prior already, is time itself to perform those feats.

 

[omegabronic]

Lmao. Nice counter argument, truly well detailed

But, no. This point is a copout, and very much is not “just a visual”. They were non corporal dimensional constructs, literally summoned forth from the actual portals the red chain made to their respective dimensions.



What also proves this to not just be a “visual” is them coming forth as that was an actual part of the summoning process that wasn’t yet completed. This is proven by the fact that both of them started vanishing when the Lake Trio were freed from Cyrus’s control, forcing him to take active measures with the red chain in order to have Dialga and Palkia be fully manifested out of that state.





You do realize that’s the Dialga I’m talking about here, right? Dialga in the future is unconscious because of Arceus wailing on it. He’s knocked out while Palkia and Giratina were left to fend Arceus off.

Dialga being able to access different time periods to send Ash and the group backward/forward through time, being aware of different events throughout time, and knowing when to send Ash and the group forward/backward through time

All while physically passed out from battle

Makes no sense if Dialga was limited just to a physical body. The only way this is possible is if Dialgas true form, as suggested prior already, is time itself to perform those feats.

I mean, by that logic what is stoping dialga palkia and giratina from just spam summon avatars to deal with arceus?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I mean, by that logic what is stoping dialga palkia and giratina from just spam summon avatars to deal with arceus?

I’m not sure if I follow what your asking

 

[omegabronic]

I’m not sure if I follow what your asking

If the creation trio can make an infinite ammount of avatars, to cover all universes, then what is stoping them from just making an army of avatars to trow at arceus in the movie?

 

[y3p_owo]

Cause Arceus could do the same.

 

[omegabronic]

Cause Arceus could do the same.

And why didn't he?

 

[y3p_owo]

Cause he has no need to. He was already beating all three of them and the CT didn't make more avatars.

 

[omegabronic]

Cause he has no need to. He was already beating all three of them and the CT didn't make more avatars.

Ok but why didn't they?

 

[y3p_owo]

If the they is Arceus, because he was already winning against them, so there wouldn't be any reason for why he should, and probably because PIS, which Jewel of Life is infamous for.

If the they is the Creation Trio, it's because Arceus would make more of his own avatars to equal it out, making it pointless for the CT to make more since one Arceus was already beating all three of them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If the creation trio can make an infinite ammount of avatars, to cover all universes, then what is stoping them from just making an army of avatars to trow at arceus in the movie?

Which omnipresent character ever did that in a verse?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Ok but why didn't they?

prolly PIS, that or they can only have one avatar in each universe at a time

 

[StrymULTRA]

prolly PIS, that or they can only have one avatar in each universe at a time

I still have to wait a god who has avatars and spams those in character. Really.

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

I still have to wait a god who has avatars and spams those in character. Really.

wait a god?

 

[StrymULTRA]

wait a god?

Yes. No character who uses avatars ever spammed those in a fight from what I saw.

 

[Eseseso]

Can we have tallies on both the 2-A stuff and the Arceus downgrade?

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[MountainWine]

Necro thread?