Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2 (Clover Edition): Mainline Game Scaling

[CloverDragon03]

This is a follow-up to this thread, which kinda just died out. Hopefully, this will get things up and running again.

So basically, the Pokémon canon split happened, regardless of what your opinion on it may be (I have some opinions about it myself that I'd probably be better off not voicing). As such, since it's happened, I'd like to help give it the shot in the arm it may need to get moving again. For reference, this blog from Ayewale highlights the new standards for the verse. Keep in mind, pretty much everything in that blog is accepted except for the point below:

There is no 'average' nor 'universal' rating for first, second or third stage Pokemon. Assigning them a tier on the grounds of 'should be comparable to other first-stage pokemon' does not make for an acceptable profile.

This part was quite heavily rejected in Ayewale's Part 2 thread, so it's safe to say that we will continue to apply universal first-stage, second-stage, and third-stage ratings. However, there is still a multitude of things to work through. This thread will cover the things that still need to be worked out for the mainline games' scaling. As such, please do not reference any material that does not relate to the mainline games.

To begin with, I'd like to link my own blog, which highlights every calculation that either is relevant or may be relevant to the mainline game scaling. Please keep this blog in mind when handling mainline game scaling.

So, with all that said, what issues still need to be resolved? Most notably, we need to work out the scaling of certain Pokémon whose Pokédex entries grant them some form of scaling to higher stage Pokémon. For example, Cranidos's Pokémon Sun Pokédex entry states:

It lived in jungles around a hundred million years ago. It used its skillful headbutts to combat Aerodactyl.

In addition, Elekid's Pokémon Moon Pokédex entry states:

This Pokémon is constantly fighting with Togedemaru that try to steal its electricity. It’s a pretty even match.

And as a final example, Tarountula's Pokémon Scarlet Pokédex entry states:

The ball of threads wrapped around its body is elastic enough to deflect the scythes of Scyther, this Pokémon’s natural enemy.

My ideas for these three are as follows:

• For Cranidos, my idea was to give it the normal first-stage Pokémon scaling, and then scale its headbutts (in AP and durability) to Aerodactyl
• For Togedemaru, I'd be fine with scaling it to first-stages off of Elekid. Not sure if there are any other options here
• For Tarountula, I would just scale its durability with Threads to Scyther, and that's it

Case in point, we need to find cases like these and figure out how we're going to handle them. I'd appreciate some help in this regard.

Secondly, we need to figure out how to handle the scaling of Legendary Pokémon, particularly those without any notable feats. I was at a loss on how to handle this, but then I stumbled across a particular scan that reads:

The power-up of Mega Evolved Pokémon is meant to elevate them to the class of legendary Pokémon, hence the restriction of only one Pokémon being allowed to hold a Mega Stone during battles.

What this means is that we can scale featless Legendary Pokémon to Mega Evolutions, which are currently accepted as being stronger than even Marowak with a Thick Club and Pokémon with Pure Power and Huge Power, making it 2x stronger than third-stage Pokémon - which is 8.68 gigatons (6-C). It's also worth keeping in mind that for Legendary Pokémon, any scaling found can be added to this sandbox made by LordTracer.

I believe that covers all the important stuff, so I'll leave things here for now. We're gonna be in it for the long haul with this thread, so any help would be appreciated.

 

[Imaginym]

This is a follow-up to this thread, which kinda just died out. Hopefully, this will get things up and running again.

So basically, the Pokémon canon split happened, regardless of what your opinion on it may be (I have some opinions about it myself that I'd probably be better off not voicing). As such, since it's happened, I'd like to help give it the shot in the arm it may need to get moving again. For reference, this blog from Ayewale highlights the new standards for the verse. Keep in mind, pretty much everything in that blog is accepted except for the point below:



This part was quite heavily rejected in Ayewale's Part 2 thread, so it's safe to say that we will continue to apply universal first-stage, second-stage, and third-stage ratings. However, there is still a multitude of things to work through. This thread will cover the things that still need to be worked out for the mainline games' scaling. As such, please do not reference any material that does not relate to the mainline games.

To begin with, I'd like to link my own blog, which highlights every calculation that either is relevant or may be relevant to the mainline game scaling. Please keep this blog in mind when handling mainline game scaling.

So, with all that said, what issues still need to be resolved? Most notably, we need to work out the scaling of certain Pokémon whose Pokédex entries grant them some form of scaling to higher stage Pokémon. For example, Cranidos's Pokémon Sun Pokédex entry states:



In addition, Elekid's Pokémon Moon Pokédex entry states:



And as a final example, Tarountula's Pokémon Scarlet Pokédex entry states:



My ideas for these three are as follows:

• For Cranidos, my idea was to give it the normal first-stage Pokémon scaling, and then scale its headbutts (in AP and durability) to Aerodactyl
• For Togedemaru, I'd be fine with scaling it to first-stages off of Elekid. Not sure if there are any other options here

Elekid is a Baby Pokemon, why would this result in scaling Togedemaru to 1st Stages?

Case in point, we need to find cases like these and figure out how we're going to handle them. I'd appreciate some help in this regard.

That said, I'm a bit distracted, but can try to help.

What this means is that we can scale featless Legendary Pokémon to Mega Evolutions, which are currently accepted as being stronger than even Marowak with a Thick Club and Pokémon with Pure Power and Huge Power, making it 2x stronger than third-stage Pokémon - which is 8.68 gigatons (6-C).

Why do we assume this? Just that Megas should be superior to third stages, so this includes Marowak or Pure Power/Huge Power Pokemon?

I believe that covers all the important stuff, so I'll leave things here for now. We're gonna be in it for the long haul with this thread, so any help would be appreciated.

I look forward to participating & hopefully helping.

 

[Omegabronic]

My ideas for these three are as follows:

• For Cranidos, my idea was to give it the normal first-stage Pokémon scaling, and then scale its headbutts (in AP and durability) to Aerodactyl

Does Aeorodactyl have scaling to third stage pokemon? If not we could just downgrade it

• For Togedemaru, I'd be fine with scaling it to first-stages off of Elekid. Not sure if there are any other options here

Elekid is already a first stage Pokemon tho? Like, why propose scaling to first stage for a mon that is already first staged?

Sorry, this one proposal is confusing me

• For Tarountula, I would just scale its durability with Threads to Scyther, and that's it

but Scyther is also a first stage mon, wouldn't it make sense for it to be on the level of other first stage mons?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Does Aeorodactyl have scaling to third stage pokemon? If not we could just downgrade it

Pokemon with no evolutions that have Mega Evolutions are treated as third-stages

Elekid is already a first stage Pokemon tho? Like, why propose scaling to first stage for a mon that is already first staged?

Sorry, this one proposal is confusing me

I'm saying that we scale Togedemaru to first stages

but Scyther is also a first stage mon, wouldn't it make sense for it to be on the level of other first stage mons?

Pokemon with no evolutions that get an evolution in a later gen are treated as second-stages going by precedent

 

[CloverDragon03]

Elekid is a Baby Pokemon, why would this result in scaling Togedemaru to 1st Stages?

We don't treat baby Pokemon and first stages any different anymore, judging by the direction the thread was going

Why do we assume this? Just that Megas should be superior to third stages, so this includes Marowak or Pure Power/Huge Power Pokemon?

Mega Evolution is a sort of ultimate transformation that brings out a Pokemon's power beyond its normal limits and is treated as a massive deal even despite the existence of Huge/Pure Power Pokemon and Thick Club Marowak. Seems natural to scale Megas above them

 

[Imaginym]

We don't treat baby Pokemon and first stages any different anymore, judging by the direction the thread was going

Hunh. I missed that.
Why is that?

Mega Evolution is a sort of ultimate transformation that brings out a Pokemon's power beyond its normal limits and is treated as a massive deal even despite the existence of Huge/Pure Power Pokemon and Thick Club Marowak. Seems natural to scale Megas above them

Noted.

 

[Omegabronic]

Pokemon with no evolutions that have Mega Evolutions are treated as third-stages

Pokemon with no evolutions that get an evolution in a later gen are treated as second-stages going by precedent

Huh, is there a reason in lore for either of those?

 

[Omegabronic]

Hunh. I missed that.
Why is that?

What's the difference between a elekid coming out of an egg and a charmander coming out of an egg? What makes 1 a baby/inferior and the other not? In universe both are equally "babies"

 

[Lou_change]

Hunh. I missed that.
Why is that?

basically they don't actual have worse feats the first stages beside pikachu and pichu being weird

 

[Ghengiroo115]

So wait, if Baby Pokémon are first stage level then does that make Pokémon like Jigglypuff or Marill second stage level? Or am I misinterpreting this?

 

[CloverDragon03]

So wait, if Baby Pokémon are first stage level then does that make Pokémon like Jigglypuff or Marill second stage level? Or am I misinterpreting this?

I believe so, at least. Though, I don't think this is a hard and fast thing either, so if anyone disagrees with baby Pokemon being treated as first-stages, you can voice as much

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean.....is there anything in verse that sets them as inferior to first stage mons......when they are themselves first stage mons?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean.....is there anything in verse that sets them as inferior to first stage mons......when they are themselves first stage mons?

Uh... Base stats, I guess? You know, that thing we're not allowed to derive scaling from?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, I think "Baby Pokemon" is a fanmade term anyway

 

[Lou_change]

Also, I think "Baby Pokemon" is a fanmade term anyway

It seems to be from the tcg actually

 

[CloverDragon03]

It seems to be from the tcg actually

I see. Speaking of, Baby Pokemon are considered Basic (First-Stage) Pokemon

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think my main issue with baby Pokémon being universally treated as first stages is that it makes Pokémon mechanically designed to be first stages scale way higher than they’re designed to be. Like Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Clefairy etc are designed to be first stage Pokémon and are even found early on in most games, it doesn’t make sense for them to be massively stronger than first stages just because they have baby forms.

However on the flip side, if you make all baby Pokémon below first stages then you’re massively undervaluing Pokémon like Munchlax or Elekid, who despite being baby Pokémon are generally treated as first stage level. I think the only way to be accurate is to decide which babies should be below first stages or not, but idk how we would do that.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Also what are we doing about early bugs and Magikarp?

 

[koopa3144]

Also what are we doing about early bugs and Magikarp?

Magikarp has a 9-A feat from Magikarp Jump that was calced a long time ago but idk if it can still be used.

 

[Omegabronic]

It seems to be from the tcg actually

Which was also separated in the canon split iirc. Could be wrong tho

 

[Omegabronic]

Also what are we doing about early bugs and Magikarp?

Caterpie is a first stage mon, so he scales to other first stage mons, same goes for all bugs ig

 

[Nierre]

interesting..

might be derailing but can I get a tl;dr as to why removing the average/universal first second and third stage pokemon scaling was rejected in the previous thread?

 

[StekFence]

Like Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Clefairy etc are designed to be first stage Pokémon and are even found early on in most games, it doesn’t make sense for them to be massively stronger than first stages just because they have baby forms.

Maybe they could be scaled to other 1st forms, and then have babies downscale, except for specific instances.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Caterpie is a first stage mon, so he scales to other first stage mons, same goes for all bugs ig

That feels really weird, but aside from base stats (which don’t mean anything here) or bringing up its lack of a moveset (which I don’t know if it’s allowed or not) I guess there’s nothing that says it shouldn’t.

Maybe they could be scaled to other 1st forms, and then have babies downscale, except for specific instances.

Yeah that’s what I was thinking. It begs the question on what to do with other baby Pokémon (specifically higher tier ones like Elekid), but if they all have to be in the same boat then I’d rather they all downscale from first stages then they all be first stages.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

or bringing up its lack of a moveset

Actually I just realised something. Aside from Wobbufett who’s shallow moveset is part of its gimmick, every single Pokémon with a shallow level up moveset is considered weak. Caterpie/Weedle/Wurmple, Magikarp/Feebas, Tyrogue and Cosmog are all obvious examples, but iirc Pichu doesn’t learn a move past Lv. 25 and other lower tier babies might be in the same boat. Could intentionally bad movesets be used to scale these Pokémon below first stages?

 

[Omegabronic]

That feels really weird, but aside from base stats (which don’t mean anything here) or bringing up its lack of a moveset (which I don’t know if it’s allowed or not) I guess there’s nothing that says it shouldn’t.


Yeah that’s what I was thinking. It begs the question on what to do with other baby Pokémon (specifically higher tier ones like Elekid), but if they all have to be in the same boat then I’d rather they all downscale from first stages then they all be first stages.

considering that all so called "babies" are for a fact first stage mons.......i don't know why we wouldn't scale them to first stage mons, is there anything thar separates these first stages from the rest of first stages in any mainline canon game?
what makea a ryhorn that is just born out of the egg as a ryhorn any different than a Tyrogue for example? Both are equally "babies" if we want to go by that definition

 

[LordTracer]

One thought I have at the moment:
An addition to Mewtwo’s High 6-A justification can be that it’s encountered by Calem/Serena after they’ve battled and captured Xerneas or Yveltal, so it could scale above them.

I didn’t really like this line of thinking in the last thread, but I realized it’s fairly consistent if we don't use the random encounters in the Ultra Space Wilds and Ramanas Park for scaling.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

considering that all so called "babies" are for a fact first stage mons.......i don't know why we wouldn't scale them to first stage mons, is there anything thar separates these first stages from the rest of first stages in any mainline canon game?
what makea a ryhorn that is just born out of the egg as a ryhorn any different than a Tyrogue for example? Both are equally "babies" if we want to go by that definition

Babies like Tyrogue and Budew only learn moves at Lv. 1, and some babies learn their last move very early (e.g Azurill doesn’t learn a move past Lv. 15). Their movesets are made intentionally bad to show how they can’t really fend for themselves, the same way Pokémon like Caterpie or Magikarp are.

 

[Imaginym]

I don't remember if there's any official terminology for them, but they are distinguished from

That feels really weird, but aside from base stats (which don’t mean anything here) or bringing up its lack of a moveset (which I don’t know if it’s allowed or not) I guess there’s nothing that says it shouldn’t.

I think I recall there being mention in a previous thread of some NPC statements about how Bug Pokemon evolving early but not being as strong or such.

considering that all so called "babies" are for a fact first stage mons.......i don't know why we wouldn't scale them to first stage mons, is there anything thar separates these first stages from the rest of first stages in any mainline canon game?
what makea a ryhorn that is just born out of the egg as a ryhorn any different than a Tyrogue for example? Both are equally "babies" if we want to go by that definition

If you mean ANYTHING at all....
Sometimes Baby Pokemon require a parent to hold a specific Incense Item for the Baby Pokemon to be the offspring.
In at least X & Y's Friend Safari, wild Baby Pokemon would have 2 guaranteed perfect (31) IVs, but I don't recall if this was referenced anywhere.
All Baby Pokemon are in the Undiscovered Egg Group.

Babies like Tyrogue and Budew only learn moves at Lv. 1, and some babies learn their last move very early (e.g Azurill doesn’t learn a move past Lv. 15). Their movesets are made intentionally bad to show how they can’t really fend for themselves, the same way Pokémon like Caterpie or Magikarp are.

True in the most recent generations, but only as of Gen 8 & 9. & Gen 8 was the generation that deliberately removed a lot of moves & Pokemon.

Compare with say, Budew's Gen 7 Moveset.

Budew (Pokémon)/Generation VII learnset

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Its P:LA moveset also has moves for Levels well beyond that.

Perhaps they did it to reduce data used by movesets in games with so many species, unlike P:LA, which just had Sinnoh's regional dex & a few others?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

True in the most recent generations, but only as of Gen 8 & 9. & Gen 8 was the generation that deliberately removed a lot of moves & Pokemon.

Compare with say, Budew's Gen 7 Moveset.

Budew (Pokémon)/Generation VII learnset

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Its P:LA moveset also has moves for Levels well beyond that.

Perhaps they did it to reduce data used by movesets in games with so many species, unlike P:LA, which just had Sinnoh's regional dex & a few others?

Ah, didn’t realise Budew’s moveset change was a recent thing. It still has a Pichu-level moveset prior to Gen 8 though, so it’s still considered weak in-universe. Idk if we should consider it Tyrogue or Caterpie levels of weak anymore though. Actually it might be better to just group in Tyrogue with the other coughing babies instead of grouping it with the early bugs.

And yeah PLA seems to just be an exception, maybe because of less limitations like you suggested or maybe for game balance purposes.

 

[Imaginym]

Ah, didn’t realise Budew’s moveset change was a recent thing. It still has a Pichu-level moveset prior to Gen 8 though, so it’s still considered weak in-universe. Idk if we should consider it Tyrogue or Caterpie levels of weak anymore though.

For what it's worth, I haven't checked other Baby Pokemon. Distracted & tired. (Call me a nerd, but I've been up for many hours to watch the VGC EUIC.)

 

[Ghengiroo115]

OK to keep everyone on the same page I’m gonna quickly list out which babies have bad or cut-short moveset and which ones have normal ones, since it’ll save everyone else from having to look it up for themselves.

Coughing Babies: Pichu, Igglybuff, Cleffa, Tyrogue, Azurill, Budew, Chingling, Happiny, Toxel, Dreepy*

Hydrogen Babies: Togepi (lmao), Smoochum, Elekid, Magby, Bonsly, Mime Jr., Munchlax, Riolu**, Mantyke

Would You Win?: Wynaut

*While technically not a baby Pokémon, it does have the vibes of one and has a bad movepool so I decided to mention it.

**While it’s missing a lot of moves from Lucario’s movepool, all of those moves are specifically tied to Lucario’s Steel typing or it’s unique identity. Riolu also has a complete movepool on its own.

 

[Omegabronic]

Babies like Tyrogue and Budew only learn moves at Lv. 1, and some babies learn their last move very early (e.g Azurill doesn’t learn a move past Lv. 15).

pretty sure using move sets as limiters of any kind was rejected last thread since they are for the most part gameplay mechanics

Bulbasaur and Squirtle only learns low level moves like Tackle until level 15, which is the same kind of moves these 2 learn, unless you use the power stat for the moves, this doesn't work at all, which is a gameplay mechanic undoubtly

Their movesets are made intentionally bad to show how they can’t really fend for themselves, the same way Pokémon like Caterpie or Magikarp are.

this is an assumption you are making, we don't know the devs intentions, again, tell me the difference between a Ryhorn just born from an Egg and Elekid just born from an Egg, what makes one more of a "baby" than the other?

Magikarp? in game statements of it being worthless in combat, Caterpie? also no valid reason for it to not scale to first stage mons....when it IS a first stage mon

I don't remember if there's any official terminology for them, but they are distinguished from

I think I recall there being mention in a previous thread of some NPC statements about how Bug Pokemon evolving early but not being as strong or such.

that would be a good statement if true, need context tho

If you mean ANYTHING at all....
Sometimes Baby Pokemon require a parent to hold a specific Incense Item for the Baby Pokemon to be the offspring.
In at least X & Y's Friend Safari, wild Baby Pokemon would have 2 guaranteed perfect (31) IVs, but I don't recall if this was referenced anywhere.
All Baby Pokemon are in the Undiscovered Egg Group.

in terms of power of course, not in general of all things

Ah, didn’t realise Budew’s moveset change was a recent thing. It still has a Pichu-level moveset prior to Gen 8 though, so it’s still considered weak in-universe

Pichu literally has the same attack that a Pikachu just captured has, his moves are not weaker than Pikachu's, most of them are the same

. Idk if we should consider it Tyrogue or Caterpie levels of weak anymore though. Actually it might be better to just group in Tyrogue with the other coughing babies instead of grouping it with the early bugs.

is there anything in universe stating that those 2 are weak enough to be used in a allegory for weakness like you are doing?

And yeah PLA seems to just be an exception, maybe because of less limitations like you suggested or maybe for game balance purposes.

we can't ignore an entire game without valid reason tho

 

[Ghengiroo115]

pretty sure using move sets as limiters of any kind was rejected last thread

Bulbasaur and Squirtle only learns low level moves like Tackle until level 15, which is the same kind of moves these 2 learn, unless you use the power stat for the moves, this doesn't work at all

I’m not talking about the quality of moves, but rather the quantity of moves and when they learn their last one. Azurill literally just stops learning moves after Lv. 15, and you have to evolve it to get more moves via level up.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

this is an assumption you are making, we don't know the devs intentions, again, tell me the difference between a Ryhorn just born from an Egg and Elekid just born from an Egg, what makes one more of a "baby" than the other?

Idk why you’re mentioning Elekid since that baby Pokémon has a normal movepool and better stats than most first stage Pokémon. A more apt comparison would be Pichu and Rhyhorn, with Pichu having no new moves after Lv. 20 (in Gen 9, earlier gens have its movepool end even earlier).

Also it’s not a baseless assumption with no evidence behind it. Magikarp is canonically weak and has a bad movepool. Caterpie is canonically weak and has a bad movepool. Sunkern is canonically not weak and has a good movepool, despite notoriously having lower stats than both the other two.

Caterpie? also no valid reason for it to not scale to first stage mons....when it IS a first stage mon

It literally can’t even learn four moves via level up, and one of them can’t be learnt unless both of its evolutions are delayed.

Also lets be honest here: Should Caterpie really be scaling to something like Tyrunt or Togedemaru? Using bad quantity movepools is the best way to keep obviously weak Pokémon from scaling higher than they’re supposed to.

 

[Omegabronic]

OK to keep everyone on the same page I’m gonna quickly list out which babies have bad or cut-short moveset and which ones have normal ones, since it’ll save everyone else from having to look it up for themselves.

Coughing Babies:

Pichu
Igglybuff,
Cleffa, Tyrogue, Azurill, Budew, Chingling, Happiny, Toxel, Dreepy*

at level 1 all of those have the same attacks that their evolutions have to harm other of their stage

Would You Win?: Wynaut

this one and wobuffet i would agree in downgrading as they have no damage moves, unless we count struggle, which....i dunno

*While technically not a baby Pokémon, it does have the vibes of one and has a bad movepool so I decided to mention it.

it doesn't give any baby vibes, see no difference between this and a Charmander or Dratini

**While it’s missing a lot of moves from Lucario’s movepool, all of those moves are specifically tied to Lucario’s Steel typing or it’s unique identity. Riolu also has a complete movepool on its own.

a Charizard using scratch is still a Third evo mon level attack, the power stat of the attack isn't what we use to determine its power, it is who is using it, making analising the moves one's learn not very useful overall

 

[LordTracer]

Sunkern is canonically not weak and has a good movepool, despite notoriously having lower stats than both the other two.

Uh, I don’t know where you got that idea from.

It is very weak. Its only means of defense is to shake its leaves desperately at its attacker.

From its Crystal and Violet dex entries.

It suddenly falls out of the sky in the morning. Knowing it’s weak, it simply feeds until it evolves.

From its B2W2 and Scarlet dex entries.

 

[Omegabronic]

I’m not talking about the quality of moves, but rather the quantity of moves and when they learn their last one. Azurill literally just stops learning moves after Lv. 15, and you have to evolve it to get more moves via level up.

pretty sure we don't consider levels canon as well, just considering them game mechanics alongside Stats

also, a Charizard who has all his moves forgotten but scracth is still a third level mon

Idk why you’re mentioning Elekid since that baby Pokémon has a normal movepool and better stats than most first stage Pokémon.

stats are not canon, we don't use them

A more apt comparison would be Pichu and Rhyhorn, with Pichu having no new moves after Lv. 20 (in Gen 9, earlier gens have its movepool end even earlier).

again, levels iirc are not considered canon here, besides the moves it learns being the same of a Pikachu on the same level anyway, so even then

Also it’s not a baseless assumption with no evidence behind it. Magikarp is canonically weak and has a bad movepool.

yeah

Caterpie is canonically weak and has a bad movepool.

Caterpie is NOT canonically weak, at least nothing would indicate such anyway

Sunkern is canonically not weak and has a good movepool, despite notoriously having lower stats than both the other two.

define "bad" and "good" movepool, few moves doesn't matter when those are the same moves as it's evolutions, again, without using the power stats, these moves' power depends on who is using it, so.....

It literally can’t even learn four moves via level up, and one of them can’t be learnt unless both of its evolutions are delayed.

outside of the level talk again, so what? it is the same kind of moves Bulbasaur has for example, why would its move be weaker than the same move used by a pokemon on the same evo stage to it?

Also lets be honest here: Should Caterpie really be scaling to something like Tyrunt or Togedemaru?

yes, yes it should

Using bad quantity movepools is the best way to keep obviously weak Pokémon from scaling higher than they’re supposed to.

considering that the examples you gave are not "obviously weak", contrary to Magikarp who has in universe statements of being weak, none of the one's you mentioned have any statements in verse that would suggest them being weaker than the other mon that are on the same evolutionary stage as them

 

[Omegabronic]

the one way we can solve this is, instead of basing on Game mechanics stuff or "feels", we just use the most clear cut method, case by case

Pichu and Cleffa for example, Clefairy and Pikachu are early in game ecounters on the same route as other level 1 mons and when the player only has a first stage mon, so they are first stage mon level, so their pre evolutions would be weaker than first stage mons

other mons who don't have such a problem, like Elekid and Tyrogue for example, can simply scale to first stage mons as they are indeed first stage mons

that way all our scaling problem are solved, at least imo

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Uh, I don’t know where you got that idea from.

From its Crystal and Violet dex entries.

From its B2W2 and Scarlet dex entries.

OK that one’s entirely on me for not double-checking the Pokédex. I guess Ralts would be a better example (not for the Caterpie comparison though).