Pokémon God Tiers: Several revisions

[StrymULTRA]

It's a while since I worked on Pokémon here, and I realized I did something not that good about the God Tiers, so I'll list them all.

2-B should just be 2-A

Yeah... the reason is kinda simple. 2-A comes from the premise that "space" in Pokémon terminology means also the parallel universes, and that was stated from Masuda as being infinite. But it was only as likely due to it being likely not literal, but in PLA we got this dex entry:

This Pokémon is feared as a deity in Hisuian legend. The birth of Palkia was what caused the walls of our world to disappear, creating a sky that spans for infinity.

Basically confirming that the cosmology should be just 2-A given it's straight up confirmed from the dex (which is written from Laventon) to be such.

True Forms should be in the same key as the avatars

Basically they have 0 reasons to be separated. True Forms never fight directly and use only avatars, and said True Forms never were confirmed to be stronger than the avatars, better merge keys.

6D Downgrade

Arceus should be downgraded to just 5D as 6D is based on misinterpreting this line. Perceiving does not mean seeing as fiction, it's more in the lines of subjective reality and it's more that it made existence from thinking about it, not that it exists only within its consciousness. So better to just yeet it back to 5D as it's using an exaggerated af interpretation of it.

I'd like to make a revision to add primal forms to Dialga and Palkia but I'm too lazy so kek.

Profiles affected:

• Arceus (duh)
• Dialga
• Palkia
• Giratina
• Uxie
• Mesprit
• Azelf

 

[Hiryu-Z]

I agree

 

[Shmooply]

Always found it weird that the cosmology wasn't straight-up 2-A so I agree with the first half of the OP. As for the 5D downgrade, I'd rather wait and see what Sniper has to say, but the downgrade also seems to make sense from a glance.

 

[Eseseso]

Agree.

 

[Sniper670]

The revision seems fine. More 2A evidence comes from Pokémon masters, which is canon



So his Avatar goes back to 2A and his True Form gets low 1C?

If I'm getting it correctly

 

[StekFence]

Palkia has a primal form?

 

[StrymULTRA]

The revision seems fine.

So his Avatar goes back to 2A and his True Form gets low 1C?

If I'm getting it correctly

I am unsure, CT True Forms are in the same tier as avatars, so Arceus should too?

We can make something like with Touhou Gods with Arceus, as even in this case they fight using just the avatars, despite those being split in keys (though Touhou is kinda the inverse about power relationship between avatar and true form, due to the former being expliictly way stronger than the true forms)-

A point against the avatar being Low 1-C is that the Creation Trio was able to significantly slow it down in the movie, so either Arceus gets a single Low 1-C key or a 2-A and Low 1-C key, I don't mind either.

Also I think you should prepare something for Primal Forms of Dialga and Palkia ig.

Palkia has a primal form?

Yes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The revision seems fine. More 2A evidence comes from Pokémon masters, which is canon

Mistranslation.

 

[ShionAH]

Neutral leaning to disagree on 2-A and Agree FRA on 6D downgrade

 

[ShionAH]

“creating a sky that spans for infinity.”

How do we know this is not High 3-A? Or just a cosmology that is really high into 2-B and increases to infinity

 

[StrymULTRA]

Neutral leaning to disagree on 2-A

Mind elaborating why?

 

[StrymULTRA]

“creating a sky that spans for infinity.”

How do we know this is not High 3-A? Or just a cosmology that is really high into 2-B and increases to infinity

Again, "space" in Pokémon means the whole of parallel dimensions.

 

[ShionAH]

Again, "space" in Pokémon means the whole of parallel dimensions.

By spanning couldnt the quote mean expanding into infinity?

 

[StrymULTRA]

By spanning couldnt the quote mean expanding into infinity?

It is already said from WoG that space is infinite, the game just solidifies it.

 

[omegabronic]

Again, "space" in Pokémon means the whole of parallel dimensions.

but the phrase is not talking about "space" but "sky", what does it say in japanese?

 

[ShionAH]

It is already said from WoG that space is infinite, the game just solidifies it.

Oh. Sure Ig unless someone counters it

 

[StrymULTRA]

but the phrase is not talking about "space" but "sky", what does it say in japanese?

I am searching it rn. But about the "sky" I think it's a synonim, as it's still about Palkia here.

 

[omegabronic]

I am searching it rn. But about the "sky" I think it's a synonim, as it's still about Palkia here.

i mean, "space" can vary in meaning depending on it is used, so by specifying "sky" it could be only refering to the "space" of the universe, you get what i mean?

 

[Aachintya31]

It is already said from WoG that space is infinite, the game just solidifies it.

Why is the game considered canon ?

 

[ShionAH]

i mean, "space" can vary in meaning depending on it is used, so by specifying "sky" it could be only refering to the "space" of the universe, you get what i mean?

Yeah this was my reasoning for High 3-A

 

[StrymULTRA]

Here's the JP btw.

神と畏れし伝説 ヒスイの地に あり。 誕生により うつし世の　壁 消え去り 延々と 際限なき空 出現したり。

Why is the game considered canon ?

Please tell me you're joking.

 

[Aachintya31]

Please tell me you're joking.

No I am asking because of this thread.

 

[Sniper670]

Mistranslation.

I addressed that in the thread. The English version of the game had information from them confirmed to be canon to the games

 

[StrymULTRA]

No I am asking because of this thread.

It only splits the scaling, all of the mediums are canon under the same multiverse.

Legends Arceus is part of the mainline series of games, so is 100% canon regardless.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I addressed that in the thread. The English version of the game had information from them confirmed to be canon to the games

And I don't give a damn. Not in JP = invalid.

 

[Sniper670]

I am unsure, CT True Forms are in the same tier as avatars, so Arceus should too?

Fine

We can make something like with Touhou Gods with Arceus, as even in this case they fight using just the avatars, despite those being split in keys (though Touhou is kinda the inverse about power relationship between avatar and true form, due to the former being expliictly way stronger than the true forms)-

A point against the avatar being Low 1-C is that the Creation Trio was able to significantly slow it down in the movie, so either Arceus gets a single Low 1-C key or a 2-A and Low 1-C key, I don't mind either.

The latter makes sense

 

[Sniper670]

And I don't give a damn. Not in JP = invalid.

Again. You're nitpicking details. Infinite Universes are things that are heavily implied in the series. This is far from invalid for the series at this point

Also, you still haven't addressed the fact that Dena America did an interview about the English Version of the game and said it is canon

 

[StrymULTRA]

The latter makes sense

K, I should wait more opinions though.

Again. You're nitpicking details. Infinite Universes are things that are heavily implied in the series. This is far from invalid for the series at this point

Also, you still haven't addressed the fact that Dena America did an interview about the English Version of the game and said it is canon

K (2).

Though can you do a dwarf for Origin Formes of Dialga/Palkia?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Neutral on the 6D downgrade.

Since Sniper was the one who made it in the first place, I wanna wait and see what he thinks.

Also, could someone link the thread where 6D got accepted?

 

[Sniper670]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pokemon-6d-cosmology-and-other-upgrades.146753/

 

[StrymULTRA]

Since Sniper was the one who made it in the first place, I wanna wait and see what he thinks.

He literally agreed here lmao.

 

[Reiner04]

I agree.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/pokemon-6d-cosmology-and-other-upgrades.146753/

Thanks Sniper. Anyway, I read the original thread first where 6D got accepted. I don't…really agree with downgrading 6-D based on what I read. Coming from the OPs short summary of the evidence he's referring to anyway, why would this be an exaggeration?

The entirety of the Pokemon cosmology is in existence because the Heart/Arceus's true form thought it into existence and is apart of it's consciousness (based on the given explanation about it from @Executor_N0). Something that most people from the OG thread also got on board with being enough to be considered a R>F difference.

And if you look at the listed qualifiers on the Reality-Fiction Transcendence page, mental constructs such as thoughts & dreams are among the accepted qualifies to qualify for R>F.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Issue it's that it's an exaggeration as nothing says it's fictional, but more like just wishing in existence like a Genies does.

It's more "I think that it exists so it does" rather than "everything is just in my head" tbf.

 

[Sniper670]

Okay, now that's misinformation.

1. The OS is mind/Heart/Spirit

2. The cosmology exists within the Heart/Mind/Spirit , the Mind that perceived Arceus into existence

3. The Heart is beyond Space and Time.

In conclusion, there's no exaggeration. All existence is part of the OS, which is fundamentally a mental construct, basically Pokémon version of Brahman

 

[StrymULTRA]

Perceiving doesn't mean seeing as thoughts. You perceive your surroundings, does it make you Tier 1?

 

[Thelastmlg]

agree for 2-A, regardles of this sky and master thing, i think the other evidence is enough

neutral for the true forms, even if they don't scale above their avatars, they have some extra powers as well, so either keep the key or i guess separate those abilities in the avatar ones.

neutral on 6D downgrade, i think it should just be "5D, likely/possible 6D" because the line is pretty vague and based on interpretation, i don't see how it can't be within his counciouness if the world's expansion is dependent on the heart/mind perceiving it and "enriching", yeah is subjective reality but that doesn't stop the possibility of reality-fiction transcendence

 

[Thelastmlg]

Perceiving doesn't mean seeing as thoughts. You perceive your surroundings, does it make you Tier 1?

i mean, the surrondings aren't dependent on our perception, so kinda of a bad example

actually idk what a good example would be in this case

 

[StrymULTRA]

i mean, the surrondings aren't dependent on our perception, so kinda of a bad example

actually idk what a good example would be in this case

You know that perceiving is still not ground for R>F, right? Subjective Reality is making things existing because of your willing, why isn't this just the same?

 

[Sniper670]

Perceiving doesn't mean seeing as thoughts. You perceive your surroundings, does it make you Tier 1?

Infinite Universes within your consciousness is 2A?

With an added confirmation that the thinker is "beyond Space and Time"