Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2 (Clover Edition): Mainline Game Scaling

[Omegabronic]

OK that one’s entirely on me for not double-checking the Pokédex. I guess Ralts would be a better example (not for the Caterpie comparison though).

ralts is not a babymon tho, besides that the wild one can react, take attacks from and harm a Zigzagoon in the begining of Sapphire/Ruby/Emerald

 

[Ghengiroo115]

at level 1 all of those have the same attacks that their evolutions have to harm other of their stage

Aren’t the profiles assuming Lv. 100?

this one and wobuffet i would agree in downgrading as they have no damage moves, unless we count struggle, which....i dunno

Yeah I personally think they should have Unknown AP and Striking Strength physically (Also Bide needs to be removed since it’s anime exclusive).

it doesn't give any baby vibes, see no difference between this and a Charmander or Dratini

Eh agree to disagree, but personally Dreepy gives me baby Kangaskhan vibes from how Drakloak and Dragapult carry it around. I mainly just mentioned it to be thorough though, if no-one else considers it akin to a baby Pokémon then that’s fine.

a Charizard using scratch is still a Third evo mon level attack, the power stat of the attack isn't what we use to determine its power, it is who is using it, making analising the moves one's learn not very useful overall

I think you’re not getting what I’m saying. I’m saying that the quantity of moves and when they learn them are meant to show how weak a Pokémon is and how low its maximum potential is.

pretty sure we don't consider levels canon as well, just considering them game mechanics alongside Stats

Maybe levels themselves aren’t canon, but Pichu learning all its moves early or Tyrogue not learning any moves via level up at all are clearly meant to show that these Pokémon are weak in comparison to others.

stats are not canon, we don't use them

That wasn’t my point, I was just using its stats an one example of why using it as the stand-in for all baby Pokémon is a bit silly.

Caterpie is NOT canonically weak, at least nothing would indicate such anyway

Bug Pokémon like Caterpie are known in-universe for being weak Pokémon that evolve quickly.

define "bad" and "good" movepool, few moves doesn't matter when those are the same moves as it's evolutions, again, without using the power stats, these moves' power depends on who is using it, so.....

A “bad” movepool is one with not many moves and/or one that ends early. A “good” movepool is one that has a lot of moves that ends later. Again it’s mainly based on quantity rather than quality.

yes, yes it should

Disregarding how obviously silly that is, do you also think cocoon Pokémon should be second stage level or are they the one exception?

ralts is not a babymon tho, besides that the wild one can react, take attacks from and harm a Zigzagoon in the begining of Sapphire/Ruby/Emerald

Ralts is replacing Sunkern, a Pokémon weaker than Magikarp stats-wise but has a “good” movepool and is stronger lore-wise. I mistakenly thought Sunkern wasn’t considered weak in-verse, so I replaced it with Ralts who looking at Dex entries actually isn’t weak.

 

[LordTracer]

but has a “good” movepool

Okay, I really don’t get this movepool argument. How exactly does a bad learnset correlate to AP?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Okay, I really don’t get this movepool argument. How exactly does a bad learnset correlate to AP?

Basically the gist is that some first stage Pokémon have “bad” movepools to signify how a Pokémon is weaker than average. An example is Magikarp, which only learns Splash at Lv. 1, Tackle at Lv. 15 and Flail at Lv. 25. Another example is Caterpie, which only learns Tackle and String Shot at Lv. 1 and Bug Bite at Lv. 9. A third example is Tyrogue, which only learns Tackle, Fake Out, Helping Held and Focus Energy all at Lv. 1. Some baby Pokémon have movesets that start out normal but suddenly stop after a certain point. For example Pichu starts off learning moves normally, but doesn’t learn any move after Lv. 20 and you have to evolve it to learn more moves via level up.

In my personal opinion this is meant to diegetically show a Pokémon as weaker through gameplay, as a Pokémon that barely learns any moves or stops learning moves early is going to be a bigger detriment to your team. Most of these Pokémon with “bad” movepools also show other examples of being weak, either through their lore or through them evolving into first-stage level Pokémon.

 

[LordTracer]

In my personal opinion this is meant to diegetically show a Pokémon as weaker through gameplay, as a Pokémon that barely learns any moves or stops learning moves early is going to be a bigger detriment to your team. Most of these Pokémon with “bad” movepools also show other examples of being weak, either through their lore or through them evolving into first-stage level Pokémon.

Gonna be honest, that really just seems like headcanon. Especially considering that, y’know, stone evolution Pokemon are notorious for having terrible learnsets, and we’re not gonna list Nidoking, Ninetales, Arcanine, etc. as any less than the fully evolved Pokemon they are just because they don’t learn any moves.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

The “good” or “bad” movepools are mainly just to decide whether a baby Pokémon should be first-stage level or if they should be below first-stage level like Pichu or Azurill. It just so happens that weak non-baby Pokémon like Caterpie or Magikarp support this idea with their notoriously trash movepools.

Gonna be honest, that really just seems like headcanon. Especially considering that, y’know, stone evolution Pokemon are notorious for having terrible learnsets, and we’re not gonna list Nidoking, Ninetales, Arcanine, etc. as any less than the fully evolved Pokemon they are just because they don’t learn any moves.

Stone evolutions are different (also most of them don’t even work like that anymore). First stage Pokémon with shallow movepools are designed to be bad and weak. Stone evolutions were designed to be something the player can choose to get whenever they want, but if they do it too early then the Pokémon risks missing out on a crucial move and being weaker than they would’ve been had they delayed the evolution. The Lt. Surge episode in the anime was even mainly written based on this mechanic.

 

[Omegabronic]

Aren’t the profiles assuming Lv. 100?

point doesn't change, the attacks are still the same from level 1

Yeah I personally think they should have Unknown AP and Striking Strength physically (Also Bide needs to be removed since it’s anime exclusive).

yeah

I think you’re not getting what I’m saying. I’m saying that the quantity of moves and when they learn them are meant to show how weak a Pokémon is and how low its maximum potential is.

Tracer said, this sounds like headcanon, again, the quantity of moves doesn't matter for the actual AP of said moves, those being the same moves as other first stage mons

Maybe levels themselves aren’t canon, but Pichu learning all its moves early or Tyrogue not learning any moves via level up at all are clearly meant to show that these Pokémon are weak in comparison to others.

no, it shows that they don't learn a variety of moves, the moves they do learn are the same as the other first stage mons(Tackle, Fake Out, Etc...) so they would still scale via this logic regardless

unless you want to downgrade Chandelure to be lesser than other Third stage via not learning any moves whatsoever after evolving

honestly, the quantity of moves it can do are based off its physiology and inteligence, not its AP

That wasn’t my point, I was just using its stats an one example of why using it as the stand-in for all baby Pokémon is a bit silly.

regardless, they aren't cannon, so it shouldn't be used

Bug Pokémon like Caterpie are known in-universe for being weak Pokémon that evolve quickly.

no? yet they are the enemy that directly faces off against the Player's First stage mon's in the begining of the game, this reason alone would make them scale, heck Bugsy, who is a gym leader, still uses Metapod, who's power stagnates after evolving from Caterpie, as one of his Pokemon, so he should still scale to normal First Stages since he is battles against them and is seem as viable by a gymm leader of all trainers

A “bad” movepool is one with not many moves and/or one that ends early. A “good” movepool is one that has a lot of moves that ends later. Again it’s mainly based on quantity rather than quality.

That is headcanon based on what you perceive as good or bad, also the quantity of moves doesn't mean anything for the AP of said moves, so it doesn't matter

Disregarding how obviously silly that is

Disregarding how it isn't silly at all

do you also think cocoon Pokémon should be second stage level or are they the one exception?

Considering that their power are said to stagnate after Evolving in preparation for it's second evolution, they would directly scale the same as their first stages

Ralts is replacing Sunkern, a Pokémon weaker than Magikarp stats-wise but has a “good” movepool and is stronger lore-wise.

you say you were only using stats as "examples" yet you are here using it as evidence outright? regardless, not canon, can't be used
good move pool i covered earlier
and.........."stronger lore wise"? than Magikarp you mean? because all mons upscale from him, that is the norm

I mistakenly thought Sunkern wasn’t considered weak in-verse, so I replaced it with Ralts who looking at Dex entries actually isn’t weak.

ok

In my personal opinion this is meant...

this is.......straight up headcanon, you can't prove what the intention of the developers was, specially when Caterpie straight up trows that out of the window

 

[Ghengiroo115]

point doesn't change, the attacks are still the same from level 1

Yes but the profiles representing Lv. 100s means the Pokémon aren’t tied to their Lv. 1 movepools. Pichu may have a good movepool at Lv. 1, but it’s vastly outclassed at Lv. 30 or 40.

Tracer said, this sounds like headcanon, again, the quantity of moves doesn't matter for the actual AP of said moves, those being the same moves as other first stage mons

I’m not saying the amount of moves directly affects AP. I’m saying that the smaller movepools is diegetic storytelling that represents the Pokémon being weak. Idk why it keeps being called a headcanon when that’s literally how the game is designed. Magikarp is the weakest Pokémon solely because of its movepool, if it actually learned moves then it wouldn’t be the weakest Pokémon anymore.

no? yet they are the enemy that directly faces off against the Player's First stage mon's in the begining of the game, this reason alone would make them scale, heck Bugsy, who is a gym leader, still uses Metapod, who's power stagnates after evolving from Caterpie, as one of his Pokemon, so he should still scale to normal First Stages since he is battles against them and is seem as viable by a gymm leader of all trainers

Them being the first enemy Pokémon doesn’t mean anything if they aren’t a threat. I don’t see how early bugs aren’t any different mechanically to your standard fodder goon in any other game.

Also Bugsy using a Metapod doesn’t really mean anything either since all his Pokémon upscale from Falkner’s Pidgeotto. He could use a singular Caterpie and he’d still be stronger than any wild first stage.

Considering that their power are said to stagnate after Evolving in preparation for it's second evolution, they would directly scale the same as their first stages

Huh, I didn’t know they canonically didn’t get any stronger. It made sense to me logically but didn’t know it was actually canon. Cool.

you say you were only using stats as "examples" yet you are here using it as evidence outright? regardless, not canon, can't be used
good move pool i covered earlier
and.........."stronger lore wise"? than Magikarp you mean? because all mons upscale from him, that is the norm

The Ralts example was to show how Magikarp is weaker diegetically based on game design, how despite having a better stat total and typing it is still weaker than Ralts due to its movepool.

this is.......straight up headcanon, you can't prove what the intention of the developers was, specially when Caterpie straight up trows that out of the window

What else could their intention be? Why would the only Pokémon with noticeably small movepools be the weak fishes, the weak bugs and the weak babies (also Unown too I guess)?

 

[Omegabronic]

by all accounts the first stage of an evo line.......is a first stage mon, no? like, makes no sense to say "evolves into first stages", if it is an evolved form, then it is a second stage

for this reason....

the one way we can solve this is, instead of basing on Game mechanics stuff or "feels", we just use the most clear cut method, case by case

Pichu and Cleffa for example, Clefairy and Pikachu are early in game ecounters on the same route as other level 1 mons and when the player only has a first stage mon, so they are first stage mon level, so their pre evolutions would be weaker than first stage mons

other mons who don't have such a problem, like Elekid and Tyrogue for example, can simply scale to first stage mons as they are indeed first stage mons

that way all our scaling problem are solved, at least imo

i still think that this is the best way to handle this, as it has more straight forward logic and support from the series imo


what do you guys think?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

by all accounts the first stage of an evo line.......is a first stage mon, no? like, makes no sense to say "evolves into first stages", if it is an evolved form, then it is a second stage

for this reason....

i still think that this is the best way to handle this, as it has more straight forward logic and support from the series imo


what do you guys think?

I mean as long as the early bugs are below first stages too then I guess it works. I still think the smaller movepools approach is best since that’s the one similarity all the below first stage Pokémon have, but yeah all I really care about is early bugs being low since it makes very little sense for them to be Togedemaru level and even less sense to be above Pichu.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Oh yeah, where are early normal and early bug final evolutions scaling? Right now they’re scaling to second stages but idk if that’s going to remain true.

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes but the profiles representing Lv. 100s means the Pokémon aren’t tied to their Lv. 1 movepools. Pichu may have a good movepool at Lv. 1, but it’s vastly outclassed at Lv. 30 or 40.

again, not relevant for the point, a Raichu using Thundershock will still be High 7-A and not 8-C, the variety of moves doesn't matter, what does matter is the one using them

I’m not saying the amount of moves directly affects AP. I’m saying that the smaller movepools is diegetic storytelling that represents the Pokémon being weak. Idk why it keeps being called a headcanon when that’s literally how the game is designed.

the headcanon is you assuming that there is a lore reason behind this that the developers wanted to show instead of it simply being a balance thing were earlier mons get worse movepools, there is nothing more than that

like, what would the AP descriptions even be?
(learns few moves, thus being weaker than the other first stage mons)????
it doesn't make sense when it is using the same moves

Magikarp is the weakest Pokémon solely because of its movepool, if it actually learned moves then it wouldn’t be the weakest Pokémon anymore.

nope, it is the weakest because it verbatim SAID to be the weakest, the movepool is a non factor in its status in verse

Them being the first enemy Pokémon doesn’t mean anything if they aren’t a threat. I don’t see how early bugs aren’t any different mechanically to your standard fodder goon in any other game.

unless you can prove that they are so weak that the player bulldozes over them in the battles then....there wouldn't be a reason to believe they are this mega fodder, specially since they are the majority of the enemies faced by the player and they reside in the same area and territory as Pikachu and other first stage mons, for god's sake Beedrill can Mega evolve to 6-C on this site already, the multiplier alone would make it scale alongside the entire line
but that's beside the point, a first stage should scale to first stages, that should be the norm

Also Bugsy using a Metapod doesn’t really mean anything either since all his Pokémon upscale from Falkner’s Pidgeotto. He could use a singular Caterpie and he’d still be stronger than any wild first stage.

yeah, which shows that the species is considered by him strong enough to value using, aka is as viable as any other mon he could have choose to train

Huh, I didn’t know they canonically didn’t get any stronger. It made sense to me logically but didn’t know it was actually canon. Cool.

profile says that at least, don't know the source

The Ralts example was to show how Magikarp is weaker diegetically based on game design

it is based on in game statements, not in game design

how despite having a better stat total and typing it is still weaker than Ralts due to its movepool.

again, stats do not matter for this talk, stop using them as evidence, we don't consider them canon

What else could their intention be? Why would the only Pokémon with noticeably small movepools be the weak fishes, the weak bugs and the weak babies (also Unown too I guess)?

basically all Stone evolutions' movepool right now

also, their intention? leaving early game pokemon as weaker than middle and endgame pokemon, since it wouldn't make sense in a gameplay perspective to have the early game have too much powerful attacks and moves since it would make it easier

Tl;Dr: simply for balancing gameplay purposes, nothing more

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean as long as the early bugs are below first stages too then I guess it works. I still think the smaller movepools approach is best since that’s the one similarity all the below first stage Pokémon have, but yeah all I really care about is early bugs being low since it makes very little sense for them to be Togedemaru level and even less sense to be above Pichu.

i still say that it does make sense to scale first stage mons to first stage mons, gameplay perspectives on "strong" and "weak" do not matter for the lore whatsoever

Oh yeah, where are early normal and early bug final evolutions scaling? Right now they’re scaling to second stages but idk if that’s going to remain true.

third stage mons scale to third stage mons, that much is simple enough

 

[Nierre]

interesting..

might be derailing but can I get a tl;dr as to why removing the average/universal first second and third stage pokemon scaling was rejected in the previous thread?

bump

 

[Lou_change]

I think my main issue with baby Pokémon being universally treated as first stages is that it makes Pokémon mechanically designed to be first stages scale way higher than they’re designed to be. Like Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Clefairy etc are designed to be first stage Pokémon and are even found early on in most games, it doesn’t make sense for them to be massively stronger than first stages just because they have baby forms.

They were designed to be first stage evolutions but that has changed any game with pikachu as a starter has them never evolve.

Which was also separated in the canon split iirc. Could be wrong tho

my point was solely that it is at all official.

It doesn't seem terrible to assume some form of ludonarrative consistency exists in these games

 

[Ghengiroo115]

the headcanon is you assuming that there is a lore reason behind this that the developers wanted to show instead of it simply being a balance thing were earlier mons get worse movepools, there is nothing more than that

Pokémon like Squirtle, Rattata, Nidoran, Mankey or Pikachu are all caught before or at the place Caterpie and Weedle are yet don’t have this problem of a small movepool, but Caterpie and Weedle do and it was done for a reason. Also baby Pokémon originally weren’t even catchable in Gen 2 and were exclusive to eggs (aside from Tyrogue which was a post-game gift Pokémon), yet Pichu, Igglybuff, Cleffa and Tyrogue still all have very small movepools that end very early. There’s literally only one reason why they would’ve chosen to do that.

nope, it is the weakest because it verbatim SAID to be the weakest, the movepool is a non factor in its status in verse

Its bad movepool makes it the weakest in-game, which represents its statement of being the weakest in-verse.

unless you can prove that they are so weak that the player bulldozes over them in the battles then....there wouldn't be a reason to believe they are this mega fodder, specially since they are the majority of the enemies faced by the player and they reside in the same area and territory as Pikachu and other first stage mons, for god's sake Beedrill can Mega evolve to 6-C on this site already, the multiplier alone would make it scale alongside the entire line
but that's beside the point, a first stage should scale to first stages, that should be the norm

If a Pokémon is flat-out called weak by the trainers obsessed with them and they’re also practically useless in-game, then it’s pretty safe to say that they’re not on the sane level as other Pokémon. Also them being in the same area as first-stage mons means nothing since there are numerous areas in the games that have first-stage, second-stage and third-stage Pokémon residing in them.

yeah, which shows that the species is considered by him strong enough to value using, aka is as viable as any other mon he could have choose to train

I don’t see how where Metapod specifically scales changes anything.

it is based on in game statements, not in game design

again, stats do not matter for this talk, stop using them as evidence, we don't consider them canon

And my argument is saying that Magikarp having bad moves is diegetic. Me mentioning stats doesn’t make my argument invalid as the whole point is that Magikarp’s intentionally bad movepool makes it weak regardless of stats.

basically all Stone evolutions' movepool right now

Not only are their bad movepools for a completely different reason, but the Stone evos can still learn every one of their pre-evolution’s moves if they just wait long enough before evolving.

also, their intention? leaving early game pokemon as weaker than middle and endgame pokemon, since it wouldn't make sense in a gameplay perspective to have the early game have too much powerful attacks and moves since it would make it easier

Tl;Dr: simply for balancing gameplay purposes, nothing more

I’m not talking about move power or variety, only quantity of moves and when they’re learned. Also again, most Pokémon learn good moves as they level up even if they don’t evolve.

 

[Omegabronic]

Pokémon like Squirtle, Rattata, Nidoran, Mankey or Pikachu are all caught before or at the place Caterpie and Weedle are yet don’t have this problem of a small movepool, but Caterpie and Weedle do and it was done for a reason.

Caterpie and Weedle evolve earlier on than anyone else, so the movepool being small gets fixed real quick, around the levels they learn moves? their's are around the same power/same moves as the rest of those, making this a complete non issue whatsoever

Also baby Pokémon originally weren’t even catchable in Gen 2 and were exclusive to eggs (aside from Tyrogue which was a post-game gift Pokémon), yet Pichu, Igglybuff, Cleffa and Tyrogue still all have very small movepools that end very early. There’s literally only one reason why they would’ve chosen to do that.

yeah, because they evolve quickly with their evolved forms already having big movepools from the previous game, again, no reason for small movepool to equal weak mon outside of "i think this was the intention" with several other options being available, heck, Pichu is an early catch in Sun and Moon, being threated as the same as the likes of Ratata and the Starter, that alongside Caterpie's trainer battle stuff i said earlier is clear cut evidence that what you are saying about "bad"(in your opinion of course, not an in game statement of it being a "bad movepool") is a non factor for them

Its bad movepool makes it the weakest in-game, which represents its statement of being the weakest in-verse.

........still the notion of him being the weakest comes exclussively from the statement, the movepool itself has attacks with the same power as a fresh starter (Tackle 40) so again, even if you want to go by game mechanics route, we still have them having similar powers, nothing changes

If a Pokémon is flat-out called weak by the trainers obsessed with them

are they called weak tho? are they really?

and they’re also practically useless in-game, then it’s pretty safe to say that they’re not on the sane level as other Pokémon.

in game = stats/game mechanics, which we don't use

really i feel like you are a broken record about this, and i don't want to be one myself

Also them being in the same area as first-stage mons means nothing since there are numerous areas in the games that have first-stage, second-stage and third-stage Pokémon residing in them.

yeah, shows the Pokemon they have to deal with and fight to compete for territory and to avoid becoming pray, in the areas where third stages are meet with other stages, these other stages also have their Final evo's to protect them, like in the irl wild

I don’t see how where Metapod specifically scales changes anything.

Metapod AP = Caterpie's currently in the profile, so he matters A LOT for this point

And my argument is saying that Magikarp having bad moves is diegetic.

and my argument is that there no canon indication that this specifically translates to all other mons, else Stone evolutions would also be worthless in comparison to other third stages, which is absolutely not the case, and as i pointed out, several of the so called "bad movepool" mons you showed are treated as pretty much the same as other third stage mons, making this notion even more ridiculous to consider

Me mentioning stats doesn’t make my argument invalid as the whole point is that Magikarp’s intentionally bad movepool makes it weak regardless of stats.

which again, is youa asserting that the moves are what is important to define the power of a mon when nothing on the games even comes close to stating or indicating this

Not only are their bad movepools for a completely different reason

that being? also, show evidence for the so called "reason" you so constantly affirm for the other mons you have talking about?

but the Stone evos can still learn every one of their pre-evolution’s moves if they just wait long enough before evolving.

aka, like several of the mons you have been talking about? they also learn several moves if they wait for evolution, which was a point against them that you made as well, kind of weird how that reverted now that another mon you don't agree with is also included

I’m not talking about move power or variety, only quantity of moves and when they’re learned. Also again, most Pokémon learn good moves as they level up even if they don’t evolve.

Tackle is a first move that most First Stage mon can learn, all the mons you talked can learn moves as good or better than it, what defines a move by "good" in terms of AP, again, if you really want to use them as evidence, is the "power" of said move, which is all on par with other First Stage mons as i have said countless times

i really feel like you and me are broken records here, you say one thing, i say another, you repeat the thing, i repeat again because it is the same point, etc...

this is becoming boring and not productive, i would much much rather for you and me to just stop and let staff give opinions, because this is becoming ridiculous

 

[CloverDragon03]

We're not using movepools as a means of scaling. That just breaches into pure headcanon territory

 

[Imaginym]

Have been AFK & stuff, hence why I haven't posted much recently.
I can kinda see the case for the movepools thing.

If a Pokemon species stops learning moves at a much lower level than other Pokemon, that implies the yields for its training, or its potential, are lower.

Most evolutionary lines, Pokemon can continue learning moves at level equal to or higher that which they evolve at, but if a Pokemon can't learn more at that point & beyond when most other species, including in their own line can, that suggests lower potential, no?

This doesn't necessarily mean Stone Evolutions should be weaker than others of their evolutionary stages, especially if we assume profiles to be Level 100, but I can see why some would interpret it that way.


The arguments opposing this seem to be that making intepretations from in-game movepools is "headcanon", despite these being an everpresent aspect of the mainline games.
Developer intent can be inferred from the low quantity of moves as well as the low power of these moves in these limited movepools. Though admittedly, some may find inferring from absence shaky, especially given all the rhetoric about proving a negative.

yeah, because they evolve quickly with their evolved forms already having big movepools from the previous game, again, no reason for small movepool to equal weak mon outside of "i think this was the intention" with several other options being available, heck, Pichu is an early catch in Sun and Moon, being threated as the same as the likes of Ratata and the Starter, that alongside Caterpie's trainer battle stuff i said earlier is clear cut evidence that what you are saying about "bad"(in your opinion of course, not an in game statement of it being a "bad movepool") is a non factor for them

On the topic of location/progression-based scaling, the same game has fellow Baby Pokemon Cleffa found on Mount Hokulani, alongside late Level 20s Pokemon & Trial Captain Molayne.

In D/P/Pt & the remakes, it can be found in Mount Coronet at Level 14 &, after the National Dex, as a Special Pokemon at slightly higher levels in The Trophy Garden.

In PL:A, it is exclusive to Mass Outbreaks. Per Bulbapedia:
"All Pokémon found in massive mass outbreaks will be at least level 60, unless the Pokémon's species is one that evolves starting at a specific level, in which case non-alphas of that species will be found 1-3 levels under the level required for evolution."

It can be found in Mass Outbreaks at the Cobalt Coastlands (Unsure what the levels & progression are for that area.), & at Levels 43-46 in the Fabled Spring.

It is available in Max Raid Battle Dens in Sw/Sh.

& it's in Kitakami at Levels 13-18 or 57-62 on Reveler's Road, among other areas, & at the highest in Kitakami, Levels 25-33 or 63-74, with the level ranges depending on if the player has completed The Way Home.

By these metrics, Cleffa seems not quite early game.


Interestingly, 1 possibly contentious avenue to look into may be Max Raid Battles & Tera Raid Battles, which has a Star Ranking system; In both of those, Cleffa is exclusively 1 Star.


Also, I may have misremembered the quote I read about. I looked it up recently, & although I haven't checked all the game, I found this, seemingly from Bug Catcher Benny in Johto:

Trainer 04:{S} Bug POKEMON evolve young. So they get stronger that much faster.
{C} BUG CATCHER BENNY
{E} Just evolving isn't enough!
{A} POKEMON become stronger if they evolve. Really!

Source (Hopefully that's okay to link to.)

 

[Ghengiroo115]

i really feel like you and me are broken records here, you say one thing, i say another, you repeat the thing, i repeat again because it is the same point, etc...

this is becoming boring and not productive, i would much much rather for you and me to just stop and let staff give opinions, because this is becoming ridiculous

I feel like we’re not even arguing about the same thing, but yeah it’s getting irritating for me too so after the little extra bit trying to explain my reasoning I’m gonn stop.

Have been AFK & stuff, hence why I haven't posted much recently.
I can kinda see the case for the movepools thing.

If a Pokemon species stops learning moves at a much lower level than other Pokemon, that implies the yields for its training, or its potential, are lower.

Most evolutionary lines, Pokemon can continue learning moves at level equal to or higher that which they evolve at, but if a Pokemon can't learn more at that point & beyond when most other species, including in their own line can, that suggests lower potential, no?

This doesn't necessarily mean Stone Evolutions should be weaker than others of their evolutionary stages, especially if we assume profiles to be Level 100, but I can see why some would interpret it that way.


The arguments opposing this seem to be that making intepretations from in-game movepools is "headcanon", despite these being an everpresent aspect of the mainline games.
Developer intent can be inferred from the low quantity of moves as well as the low power of these moves in these limited movepools. Though admittedly, some may find inferring from absence shaky, especially given all the rhetoric about proving a negative.

This is kinda what I’m trying to say. My logic is that Pichu, Igglybuff and Cleffa scale below first stage Pokémon, and their movesets that end early are meant to represent an inherent weakness or lack of potential with the Pokémon in question. We know this is supposed to represent some kind of weakness and isn’t just for game balance sake since their movepools have always been like this, even in Gen 2 where you needed their evolution in order to even get the baby form. We also know this isn’t a baby Pokémon specific trait since Smoochum, Elekid and Magby don’t have this quirk, despite being available from a gift egg that can also randomly give you one of the former three. Despite being accessible from the exact same thing, the latter three have normal movepools while the former three have very small and quick-ending ones. There’s no game balance argument to be had here, it has to be for aesthetic reasons.

Now because Pichu and co’s movepool represents a weakness, I thought about some other Pokémon that have noticeably small movepools and noticed a pattern. Caterpie, Magikarp, Tyrogue, Dreepy, Azurill, etc. All of them are very weak and/or childlike Pokémon already, and them having small movepools connects then to Pichu and co who we know are weaker than first stages lore-wise. We also know that Magikarp is the weakest Pokémon in-lore and its movepool reflects that, so using intentionally small movepools to suggest a Pokémon is Pichu level or lower doesn’t seem that farfatched to me. Tyrogue in particular is another example of it not just being game balance reasons. Aside from it not learning any moves levelling up at all, it was originally a late-game exclusive Pokémon in its debut game. Early-game Pokémon like Rattata have normal movepools, so a late-game gift baby Pokémon that doesn’t learn moves via level up is clearly meant to represent an inherent weakness for Tyrogue. It also evolves at Lv. 20, later than starters or some early normals despite them all having normal movepools in their first stages.

Now I can get just using a small movepool to scale their skill instead, as that would be quicker. However with how Pichu is weaker than first stages and how it connects to other weak Pokémon through smaller movepools, I feel it’s at least something that deserves discussing. At the very least the small movepools mean something in-lore.

Also, I may have misremembered the quote I read about. I looked it up recently, & although I haven't checked all the game, I found this, seemingly from Bug Catcher Benny in Johto:

Trainer 04:{S} Bug POKEMON evolve young. So they get stronger that much faster.
{C} BUG CATCHER BENNY
{E} Just evolving isn't enough!
{A} POKEMON become stronger if they evolve. Really!

I loosely remember some statement from either Gen 1 or 3, but if I’m wrong then I guess there’s nothing saying Caterpie is explicitly weak (even though it’s supposed to be).

 

[Lynieryz]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but it is not confirmed that the current Aerodactyl is a defective clone and that its mega evolution is the correction with it returning to its original state? The Aerodactyl that the pokedex is referring to is the mega, Cranidos scales to the mega.

 

[Lynieryz]

Sword:

Apparently even modern technology is incapable of producing a perfectly restored specimen.

Sun:

Part of its body has become stone. Some scholars claim that this is Aerodactyl’s true appearance.

Ultra Moon:

Mega Evolution awakened some dormant genes, bringing back the sharp rocks that once covered Aerodactyl’s entire body.

Let's Go P/E:

The power of Mega Evolution has completely restored its genes. The rocks on its body are harder than diamond.

 

[Imaginym]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but it is not confirmed that the current Aerodactyl is a defective clone and that its mega evolution is the correction with it returning to its original state? The Aerodactyl that the pokedex is referring to is the mega, Cranidos scales to the mega.

The entries do seem to support that Mega Aerodactyl is considered to be the true Aerodactyl. If that co-existed with Cranidos....

 

[Imaginym]

We still have matters to go over, right?

 

[StekFence]

The entries do seem to support that Mega Aerodactyl is considered to be the true Aerodactyl. If that co-existed with Cranidos....

I mean, tyrantrum is supposedly walling every coexistent mon including aero, so there’s that

 

[Imaginym]

We still have matters to go over, right?

Re-asking this.
I'm guessing something is holding up the pace of this revision's discussion.

 

[MysticBrawler]

You know I was wondering if it would still be possible to keep the cross-scaling between the anime and games by using the series Pokemon Generations and Pokemon Evolutions?

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

bump

The main reason is that it's absolutely infeasible to do something like this, as then we'd have to go by individual Pokedex entries, most of which don't give anything useful at all. In addition, first-stages, second-stages, and third-stages are all generally comparable when looking at the likes of in-game progression and the like

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Did I miss something? Why are the Eevee-lutions 6-C scaling to Abomasnow who's High 7-A?

 

[koopa3144]

Did I miss something? Why are the Eevee-lutions 6-C scaling to Abomasnow who's High 7-A?

Abomasnow's profile is outdated, they have a 6-C calc that scales to fully evolved Pokemon in X/Y which hasn't been added to their profile yet.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Abomasnow's profile is outdated, they have a 6-C calc that scales to fully evolved Pokemon in X/Y which hasn't been added to their profile yet.

You would think they would have been edited first considering it's their damn calc.

 

[MysticBrawler]

You know I was wondering if it would still be possible to keep the cross-scaling between the anime and games by using the series Pokemon Generations and Pokemon Evolutions?

Bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't believe it would, no. Generations/Evolutions would fall into one continuity or the other, rather than enabling cross-scaling between two

 

[MysticBrawler]

I don't believe it would, no. Generations/Evolutions would fall into one continuity or the other, rather than enabling cross-scaling between two

Oh, really? Cause I was thinking that since these two are anime adaptions of in-game events, and that parallel worlds/timelines exist in the anime canon, that these two could be used to connect the games and the anime together.

 

[Lou_change]

Oh, really? Cause I was thinking that since these two are anime adaptions of in-game events, and that parallel worlds/timelines exist in the anime canon, that these two could be used to connect the games and the anime together.

I am pretty sure they are explicitly different universes

 

[MysticBrawler]

I am pretty sure they are explicitly different universes

Oh, ok then.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I don’t remember if this was addressed in the other thread, but where are the human characters scaling to now? From what I can see on the profiles basically all the justifications for them come from either Origins or the main anime. You can probably still get durability scaling from Legends Arceus, but are there any AP feats? Maybe there’s something in Twilight Wings, Hisuian Snow or Paldean Winds (I assume these are still useable for mainline scaling purposes) but I don’t remember.

 

[Lou_change]

I don’t remember if this was addressed in the other thread, but where are the human characters scaling to now? From what I can see on the profiles basically all the justifications for them come from either Origins or the main anime. You can probably still get durability scaling from Legends Arceus, but are there any AP feats? Maybe there’s something in Twilight Wings, Hisuian Snow or Paldean Winds (I assume these are still useable for mainline scaling purposes) but I don’t remember.

Ap feats are lacking, the rocket grunt survived Lance having dragonite hyper beam them tho right. Have we looked a electric type's energy production feats at all