One Piece Post Timeskip Up to Dressrosa

[KingTempest]

I also disagree with. The way Chinajo is attacking the sword is different to Canvedish deflecting Doflamingo's bullets. He is applying a constant weight to it with his headbutt / dive.

When did that ever discredit a feat?
That's like saying Fujitora's gravity wouldn't scale above Zoro's physicals because he's applying a constant weight to his body, which pushed him through the ground.
That's also like saying Gear Third Luffy doesn't scale to Chinjao for applying a constant weight to his head even though he violated his head. I'll take Mountain Level+ Chinjao.
Machvise applied a constant weight with his DF power on Hajrudin, yet Hajrudin sent him flying into the birdcage.
It's also like saying G4 Luffy isn't > Doflamingo's 16 threads since Luffy applied a constant weight to his strings. I mean, I'll take Large Mountain Doflamingo for momentarily matching G4 Luffy, but you understand what I mean.

It's not like a super long term feat of a large object that outweighs the weight limit on an elevator, he collided with his sword, and in a few seconds, it bent.
Either that, or we get Large Mountain Level Doflamingo and Mountain Level+ Corrida people and officers, which gets some of them into Large Mountain just by virtue of scaling, upscaling, and one shotting (and 2x Hakuba).

Me personally, I prefer the first one, but if that doesn't work, I'll take Mountain+ and Large Mountain Dressrosa characters, which would massively affect all of the Post Timeskip ratings.

Also, Chinjao has a feat of matching and scaling to G2nd with Haki Luffy, who scales above Base Luffy, who's 420 megatons.

Yeah, and cavendish blocked Chinjaos' attack with the tip of his sword while he blocked Doflas' attack using all of his blade

Wouldn't make a difference. He was blocking wide spread attacks. Would you block a rain of arrows with the side of the shield or would you do it with the most widespread portion, the front?
It's the same durability on the sword all over.
The vivre card states that if it doesn't break, it bends, which means he overcame the durability regardless.

An out of verse example?
Toneri split the moon with the side of his sword, Naruto ran through the tip of the attack. Are we gonna say that doesn't work all because he hit it through the tip instead of the side?

 

[XDragnoir]

I mean, we don't scale Sanji to Oven because Sanji attacked him in a weaker spot than another character (can't remember who), isn't that the same concept but applied to a sword instead of a human?

 

[Damage3245]

who scales above Base Luffy, who's 420 megatons.

You keep asserting this but this isn't agreed on yet.

I have to say this issue for Fujitora needs to be resolved, because what you're doing is taking his most powerful calced non-meteor feat, saying it is casual (just because he wasn't putting physical effort in, even though he was lifting the rubble purely through his DF ability), and saying base Luffy must scale to it.

(Even though when Fujitora hit Luffy with his Ferocious Tiger, he broke through Luffy's Gear 3rd Haki guard with it).

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, couldn't Inverse Square Law be applied to Ferocious Tiger? I remember Tempest said something like that.

 

[KingTempest]

You keep asserting this but this isn't agreed on yet.

I have to say this issue for Fujitora needs to be resolved, because what you're doing is taking his most powerful calced non-meteor feat, saying it is casual (just because he wasn't putting physical effort in, even though he was lifting the rubble purely through his DF ability), and saying base Luffy must scale to it.

If I say "lifting feat" just know I meant transporting the country which gave the 420 results.

Spoiler: My Quotes

Fujitora can maintain the lifting feat + attacking but he can't maintain gravity against Zoro.
Fujitora's gravity wasn't enough to hold down Law. Law flat out warned him prior to escaping that if he couldn't hold him down, he would escape. What did Law do? Escape.
If he can lift 420 megatons, he should've been able to keep Law down there. This scales to Law's dura, which everyone scales to.

Law's dura scales via not getting crushed by Fujitora holding him down.
They all scale to Law's dura.

Also, we saw Ferocious Tiger being charged up prior to it's use against Sabo, noted by the black lightning.
From what I know, charged attacks > randomly thrown out attacks.

I meant to refer to the whole feat in general, Fujitora could handle all of that but he couldn't handle the pressure from Zoro as well.
Also, he could use his gravity against Law, and his gravity wasn't enough to keep Law down, yet he could do the mountain level feat with no issues.

These^

(Even though when Fujitora hit Luffy with his Ferocious Tiger, he broke through Luffy's Gear 3rd Haki guard with it).

Pushed him back, definitely. Luffy tanked the blow with his body, he was just sent flying

I'm pretty sure we don't scale AP via knockback, since that's what got my High 7-A Katakuri declined in the last CRT when he knocked him back.

 

[Damage3245]

Fujitora's gravity wasn't enough to hold down Law. Law flat out warned him prior to escaping that if he couldn't hold him down, he would escape. What did Law do? Escape.

Law didn't get out by overpowering his gravity. He teleported out.

Also, we saw how much gravity Fujitora was applying just to keep him pinned. Enough to make a small crater beneath Law and shatter a boulder with it.

Pushed him back, definitely. Luffy tanked the blow with his body, he was just sent flying

My point is that the point of contact that was hit by the blow was when Luffy was using Gear 3 + Haki to block it. So it seems wrong to say "Base Luffy tanked the Ferocious Tiger", when it's more like "Luffy using Haki + Gear 3 tanked the attack but got knocked back".

 

[KingTempest]

Law didn't get out by overpowering his gravity. He teleported out.

Peep the statement

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics-chapter-723-page-14.html

https://***********.com/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-723-page-13.html

Let's hope that gravity of yours is enough to hold me down Fujitora, or else I'm about to get away.
You better apply the gravity, Fujitora. Or I'm gonna escape.

He's basically saying that a certain amount of Gravity could hold him down.
Issho's wasn't enough to hold him down, since he got away.

I fail to see why Doflamingo and Fujitora wouldn't see/sense a room half the size of Green Bit and not do anything about it.

Plus they complimented Law's strength for teleporting out while tired. How is that a respectable feat? Because of the factors against him, A.K.A the gravity.

Also, we saw how much gravity Fujitora was applying just to keep him pinned. Enough to make a small crater beneath Law and shatter a boulder with it.

That's not a good argument, or else we can calc how much it would take to put Zoro not even 10 meters under ground (which is probably under 8-C) and use it as an antifeat, even though Zoro has 7-B feats.

My point is that the point of contact that was hit by the blow was when Luffy was using Gear 3 + Haki to block it. So it seems wrong to say "Base Luffy tanked the Ferocious Tiger", when it's more like "Luffy using Haki + Gear 3 tanked the attack but got knocked back".

G3rd doesn't raise dura, it's just the sum of a bunch of small damage which brings large AP results.
Luffy using Haki would make sense. We can say Luffy using Haki tanked the attack but got knocked back.

Actually, no. Luffy's whole body wasn't haki'd up, and we know he hit his whole body, so it still works.

 

[Eminiteable]

Actually, no. Luffy's whole body wasn't haki'd up, and we know he hit his whole body, so it still works.

This was discussed previously in the thread, gravity is blunt force so if he isn't using haki he's just resists it rather than it scaling to his durability, so he'd scale to Ferocious tiger with his haki durability.

 

[KingTempest]

This was discussed previously in the thread, gravity is blunt force so if he isn't using haki he's just resists it rather than it scaling to his durability, so he'd scale to Ferocious tiger with his haki durability.

Alright.
An amped Hody bit through his Haki and Luffy punched him meters away w/out haki, showing that his Haki dura and his G2nd AP are similar.

His regular dura would still scale.

 

[Eminiteable]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but wouldn't Hody biting through Luffy's Haki be a weakeness of Luffy's Haki abilities at the time?

From the way i interpreted it made me think Luffy's Haki works as intended against blunt force but fails against cutting/piercing attacks (or is that wrong?)

 

[Damage3245]

@Eminiteable; that would make sense since Luffy casually blocked a kick from Hody Jones with his Haki just moments earlier.

 

[KingTempest]

Still a very casual feat that he doesn't even show effort doing.

Also, we saw Ferocious Tiger being charged up prior to it's use against Sabo, noted by the black lightning.
From what I know, charged attacks > randomly thrown out attacks.

Is that not enough proof? I'm 1000% sure it is.

Views on this?

We gotta get this over w/

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think the "charging up" argument is relevant. We don't see Fujitora prior to the rubble getting lifted.

And I'm not sure I'd even call it a "randomly thrown out attack". It is a sustained application of his Devil Fruit, sure it isn't being wielded offensively but I don't see that would mean it is lower than all of his attacks.

As for shown effort, I'm not sure when Fujitora has even been shown putting effort into just manipulating gravity when he isn't also doing some physical action that would cost him effort.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Doflamingo should scale to cage.
Vergo should not scale to Pica. I don't even think Diamante should scale to Pica unless I'm forgetting something.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, i disagree with the logic that every attack needs to be calced and if they are calced at different values they shouldn't be at the same level, for real, if the highest value is 400 and the others aren't much behind (100, 180, 300) use the 400 calc as the level and the others as evidence, the Oda does not need to pulverize a mountain everytime to show that different attacks are at the same level.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Also, i disagree with the logic that every attack needs to be calced and if they are calced at different values they shouldn't be at the same level, for real, if the highest value is 400 and the others aren't much behind (100, 180, 300) use the 400 calc as the level and the others as evidence, the Oda does not need to pulverize a mountain everytime to show that different attacks are at the same level.

Yeah I agree with this. It's very dumb and arbitrary.

 

[KingTempest]

Also, i disagree with the logic that every attack needs to be calced and if they are calced at different values they shouldn't be at the same level, for real, if the highest value is 400 and the others aren't much behind (100, 180, 300) use the 400 calc as the level and the others as evidence, the Oda does not need to pulverize a mountain everytime to show that different attacks are at the same level.

THANK YOU

 

[XDragnoir]

Anyway, i am way more interested in WCI-Wano scaling than anything else, but if this 420 scaling is accepted things will be way more consistent anyway.

Also, i want to ask something, G4 is based in multiplying the tensile force behind the attacks, why do we apply that to durability?

 

[Damage3245]

Context matters though IMO. If a character is capable of 400 megatons, sure, rate them off of that, but if another character is shown being hit by an attack that is 300 megatons I don't see why scaling them to a different feat is more valid than scaling them to the 300 megatons. (Just example figures)

And I still think it is wrong to say base Luffy tanked Fujitora's attack. Gear 3 Haki Luffy tanked it. (I also believe Gear 3 does raise his durability or at least his resistance to strikes to some extent)

 

[XDragnoir]

Unless there is stated/implied superiority of one attack to the other, there is no reason to say they are different in power at all, pretty sure Oda does not even know lifting things can be calced above breaking mountains, same way cloud feats are done everywhere even tho they are way more powerful than many other types of feats, don't we have an AOE fallacy or something like that for these cases?

Also, Didn't Issho intend to kill Luffy with the 420? That could be an argument to not scale him to 420, but simply saying "the calcs" is by no way a good reason. Anyway, use inverse whatever law in Ferocious Tiger and scale it to Luffy, it doesn't matter if you scale it to G3, Haki or base, we just need a new value to work with from now on.

 

[KingTempest]

Ferocious Tiger Calc

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[XDragnoir]

wtf? Damage is awake? In which country he is? Damn, someone needs to see this, quick.

 

[Voltairee]

I hope this is accepted I hope this is accepted

 

[Dr.Fix]

A couple things while I have some time

Scaling Cavendish to his sword.

The concept of "pushback" was explored months ago by yours truly. I also brought up that Law has many feats of blocking Duffy without getting pushed back so as a MINIMUM there's zero argument for Cavendish>Law. As for either being applied, @CinCameron20 & @Damage3245 rejected the notion of "push back" or lack there of, as evidence of scaling so that is a dead-end. All we get from that is a durability feat for their swords, not their bodies. Cin can go into more detail about it.

Scaling all attacks differently based on their calculation. In this case for Fujitora.

Lol no. I brought this up when I was new and naive. The reality is that the site on the whole gives the highest value to all a characters attacks more often than not. The alternative would mean Zoro's swings have human lv AP when ever he isn't causing AOE damage.

Law VS Fuji

Fuji holding down Law is a feat for the Marine, not the other way around. The fact he wasn't mushed only shows Law isn't entier tiers below him which we know already scaling from Vergo/Pica.

Jaw Strength

In some cases, a characters jaw is absolutely stronger than their punches. it is a physiology thing. Imagine how powerful a T-Rex's jaw is then consider it trying to punch another dinosaur.

Ferocious Tiger Calc

I'll leave that to the calc team

 

[Damage3245]

I've commented on the calc. I believe that method is used for an omnidirectional explosion, not for a focused attack like Fujitora's gravity which destroyed a specific target (the cliffs behind Luffy). I don't think that method is viable. The best method for calculating it is simply the destruction of the cliffs themselves.

The reality is that the site on the whole gives the highest value to all a characters attacks more often than not.

I think you're referring to how tier the profiles. Yes, we typically rate a character by their highest value / highest feat. But that doesn't mean all of powerscaling is done to a character's strongest feat.

 

[XDragnoir]

The concept of "pushback" was explored months ago by yours truly. I also brought up that Law has many feats of blocking Duffy without getting pushed back so as a MINIMUM there's zero argument for Cavendish>Law. As for either being applied, @CinCameron20 & @Damage3245 rejected the notion of "push back" or lack there of, as evidence of scaling so that is a dead-end. All we get from that is a durability feat for their swords, not their bodies. Cin can go into more detail about it

Recently, Apoo was upgraded to 7A+ for not being pushed back by his clash with Drake.

 

[KingTempest]

Scaling Cavendish to his sword.

The concept of "pushback" was explored months ago by yours truly. I also brought up that Law has many feats of blocking Duffy without getting pushed back so as a MINIMUM there's zero argument for Cavendish>Law. As for either being applied, @CinCameron20 & @Damage3245 rejected the notion of "push back" or lack there of, as evidence of scaling so that is a dead-end. All we get from that is a durability feat for their swords, not their bodies. Cin can go into more detail about it.

Cavendish's sword didn't bend when it got hit by bullet string.
Same bullet string that ripped through Law's skin.
Chinjao bent that sword.
Cavendish held him up.

Simple scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

Cavendish's sword didn't bend when it got hit by bullet string.

Why would it? He's just deflecting them, isn't he?

It just seems to me that them being two very different types of attacks can explain the different effects on his sword.

 

[KingTempest]

Why would it? He's just deflecting them, isn't he?

His sword bends whenever too much force is applied to it.
If the bullet string was stronger than the force that the sword could take, it would bend, just like against Chinjao.

 

[Damage3245]

His sword bends whenever too much force is applied to it.
If the bullet string was stronger than the force that the sword could take, it would bend, just like against Chinjao.

That's not the only thing that could happen though, right? They could deflect off of the sword and carry on at different trajectories instead of coming to a dead-stop against the surface of the blade, meaning that not all of their energy is going straight into the blade. Though granted it is hard to tell what happened to them from just this page.

Though the problem with this goes a bit deeper, since at the core you're scaling Law to tanking Fujitora's gravity and Fujitora's gravity for pinning Law down should not automatically scale to 420 Megatons. Not even going into the issue of them being two very different types of "attacks", a gravity field pressing down over his whole body, and a piercing Bullet String.

 

[XDragnoir]

I've commented on the calc. I believe that method is used for an omnidirectional explosion, not for a focused attack like Fujitora's gravity which destroyed a specific target (the cliffs behind Luffy). I don't think that method is viable. The best method for calculating it is simply the destruction of the cliffs themselves.

which method?

 

[KingTempest]

That's not the only thing that could happen though, right? They could deflect off of the sword and carry on at different trajectories instead of coming to a dead-stop against the surface of the blade, meaning that not all of their energy is going straight into the blade. Though granted it is hard to tell what happened to them from just this page.

Though the problem with this goes a bit deeper, since at the core you're scaling Law to tanking Fujitora's gravity and Fujitora's gravity for pinning Law down should not automatically scale to 420 Megatons.

From this point on we can just say "scales to Fujitora" since it's not set in stone that they'll scale to the 420. It's set in stone that they scale to the original calc, but the 420 scaling is a different point.

There would be no valid explanation for why a sword wouldn't scale to a bullet for deflecting the bullet. The energy is still moving with the bullet. There is no way you can actually justify the sword not taking the full force of each bullet, plus the fact that only one went through Law's entire shoulder while Durandal knocked a bunch.

The other scaling chain is this.
Chinjao's AP > Durandal's Dura > Tamaito > Law's Durability > Doflamingo's Physical AP > Base Luffy's Durability > Fujitora's Low End Gravity

 

[KingTempest]

Also, we need a recalc for the initial measurements of the Ferocious Tiger feat.

The pixel scaling is on Narutoforums but the picture has been removed, and the OP of the calc doesn't have the picture anymore (since the feat was from 2015)

 

[unworthy]

you haven't really come to anything right now at 6 pages, you ignore Hody's multipliers under the fallacy of "he doesn't have the feats" or "I think it's abuse or exaggeration," when that was the point of so many pills, Hody was no match for Luffy, not even closely.

Also, I think this should be closed right now, because a lot of things since the Pre-TS should be re-evaluated, because Oda has made a lot of retcons, and this thread doesn't make sense without first reviewing the pre-TS IMO.

 

[Damage3245]

@unworthy; I wouldn't mind going through Pre-Timeskip material.

 

[KingTempest]

We have an issue.

Our basis for the measurements of the initial Ferocious Tiger calc is unjustified now since the picture w/ the scaling is gone on Narutoforums.
I asked the person who did the original calc in 2015 if they had the picture or if they remember any details and they said no.

We're gonna need a calc from the ground up. All we need is volume (and the dimensions of it, Length, Width, Height). Idk if we're doing the regular old method or if we're doing energy that traveled, it doesn't matter, but we need a new calc ASAP.

 

[Damage3245]

@KingTempest; I'll put together a new calc for it and post it as soon as I can.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest; I'll put together a new calc for it and post it as soon as I can.

Thanks Damage

 

[XDragnoir]

Okay, numbers aside, what else is wrong in this scaling chain?

Alright. Here's what I have.

420 Megatons​

​

Spoiler: 420 Megatons Scaling Chains

Reasoning​

No Haki Sai's AP > Lao G's AP > No Haki Chinjao's Dura ≥ No Haki Chinjao's AP > Durandal (until it bends) > Doflamingo's Bullet Strings > Law's Durability > Doflamingo's Physical AP > No Haki Luffy's Durability ≥ 420 Megatons

Hakuba's AP > Dellinger's Dura > Dellinger's AP > Ideo's Dura ~ Sai's AP ≥ 420 Megatons

Cavendish ~ No Haki Chinjao's AP > Durandal (until it bends) >>≥ 420 Megatons

Baby 5's Dura > Baby 5's AP ~ No Haki Sai's AP
Nami and Usopp's Individual AP > Buffalo's Dura ~ Buffalo's AP

840 Megatons​

​

Spoiler: 840 Megatons Scaling Chains

Reasoning​

840 Megatons < Hakuba ~ 2x Cavendish > Cavendish ~ No Haki Chinjao's AP > Durandal (until it bends) >>≥ 420 Megatons

Kyros's AP ~ Diamante's AP >>> Rebecca's Helmet ≥ Hakuba ≥ 840 Megatons
Nico Robin's Dura ≥ Nico Robin's AP > Hakuba ≥ 840 Megatons
Nico Robin's Dura ≥ Nico Robin's AP > Diamante's AP ≥ 840 Megatons

Gear Third Luffy, Diable Jambe Sanji, Serious Zoro all scale to (if not above) Robin, because Caribou would rather fight Robin than the Monster Trio.

Doflamingo's Spider Web and Awakening Dura and AP > Gear Third Luffy > Nico Robin's AP
Diable Jambe Sanji's AP > Nico Robin's AP
Serious Zoro's AP > Monet's AP > Nico Robin's Dura > Nico Robin's AP

1260 Megatons​

​

Spoiler: 840 Megatons Scaling Chains

Reasoning​

Gear Fourth Luffy

Those who fall under what tier.​

420​

Spoiler: Those with 420 Megatons

Base Luffy's AP
Gear 2nd Luffy's AP
Luffy's Dura
Law's Dura
Doflamingo's Physical AP
The Corrida Officers
The Straw Hat Grand Fleet

840​

Spoiler: Those with 840 Megatons

Gear Third's AP
Diable Jambe Sanji's's AP & Dura
Vergo's AP & Dura
Smoker's AP & Dura
Serious Zoro's AP & Dura
Diamante's AP & Dura
Kyros' AP & Dura
Hakuba's AP
Nico Robin's AP & Dura
Monet's AP & Dura
Doflamingo's Strings' AP & Dura

1260​

Spoiler: Those with 1260 Megatons

Gear Fourth's AP
Gear Fourth's Dura

Because i think it is consistent to some extent.

 

[Damage3245]

There's still a few things wrong with that like thinking that Caribou is a valid measuring stick for comparing characters when he doesn't have some way of sensing power levels.

Also, I've made a new calc for Fujitora's Ferocious Tiger.