Damn you PoC! (Devil May Cry Revisions)

[Vietthai96]

It hardly can even go to Low 1-C if nothing state about higher order of infinity (uncountably infinite higher), reality-fiction, higher dimension trivialise lower dimension as infinitely insignificant

 

[ZAMIR890]

this maximum is low 2C I share the opinion of Vietthai96 and Tony_di_bugalu

 

[Delta333]

Tbh this is the most weird reason for 1-C that I have ever seen, I mean higher D being able to contain the lower one is 5-D at maximum depend on context, read that blog countless times and I still legitimately don't get the idea that argue for 1-C at all

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Addressed the first comment in my reply to Sevil, I meant dante getting immortality negation, not the demons lacking type 4 and 8.

But do we remotely have any showings of demons flat out regenerating despite their souls being destroyed? Because that's kind of important for them to scale to this level of regen when we've shown no evidence for this. Also this especially is an antifeat for sparda heritage characters since they have anti feats for this.

I was aware that you were talking about Negation

Like I said in my previous post, this demon's resurrection has no timeframe given, but the scan doesn't imply anything that takes too long to happen, in fact, it's the opposite as it's meant to be a way to keep the demon on its prey, meaning, it has a short timeframe to revive him, and that's the reason we should add negation to Dante, because said demon can't resurrect after Dante kills him

One could say that, since we fight this type of demon multiple times in POC, that means they are coming back, however at one point they will stop because this demon has no showings at any other point in Dante's life post POC, so even if we assume fighting this demon multiple times is thanks to its resurrection, Dante will still be able to negate it overtime

The quote just says that it reflects this world, we have nothing else to work here and considering this thing is supposed to be in between the demon world and the human world makes me question what he really means, heck even in Vol 2, the planet is refereed as "the world" despite it being used numerous times to talk about the human universe but unlike here, those times had proper context behind it. There is also the fact that the Island has a big ass connection to the demon world that the rest of the human world lacks

What do you mean "we have nothing" ?

It's stated to be a "dimension"

Or an "Alternate Dimension"

The Mirror World was also collapsing from Mundus defeat, it's part of the Demon World, which we know it's Infinite in size. Nothing really implies the Mirror World being Island sized or Planet sized. We, and you included, used Argosax's quotes of "consuming our dimension" as further proof of his feat being Universal (at that time), so I expect this is relevant for you

It's not necessarily a path to another time and space, its just a portal to another place. A portal from my home to china is "a window in time and space". Same world, same words, same use. Btw iirc the watcher of time doesn't work there which could imply time doesn't exist there either but that could be more headcanon on my part than actual arguments.

Unlike your home and China, which we know it belongs to the same Time-Space (I think ? You might be from another Time-Space, who knows), Human and Mirror World doesn't have that connection

However

If the Mirror World is really a part of the Demon World...then yes it is another Time-Space, since, well, DW is

Now, that creates a problem with the "window" argument, since if MW is inside the DW, which we know it's a separated time and space, then the statement about a rift in space and time could mean DW's space and time, that means we likely lack proof to say MW is inside the DW while also being separated from it's space and time. I'll try to show what I mean

Orange line = Time

Red line = Space



Which means, a Time-Space inside a Time-Space, however, since entering the MW means entering the DW, then the quote about time-space could be about DW's time-space

Looking like this:

I mentioned this above and in my first post but this shit at best gets you Low 1-C/5D, not 9D or some other random tier.

So, I saw you and Glass saying this has the possibility for Low 1-C, are you suggesting a "Possibly Low 1-C" works ?

 

[Vietthai96]

Dimension can mean anything, so nope, you guy abuse the word dimension too much

Space-time: every dimension can have space-time, just because a dimension have space-time doesn't mean it automatically a Low 2-C structure

Reflect the evil heart of humanity or reflect this world is very vague and flowery, figurative and doesn't prove it to be a Low 2-C structure. Which funny enough that DMC narrative never goes beyond Earth or rather planet scale

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Dimension can mean anything, so nope, you guy abuse the word dimension too much

Space-time: every dimension can have space-time, just because a dimension have space-time doesn't mean it automatically a Low 2-C structure

Reflect the evil heart of humanity or reflect this world is very vague and flowery, figurative and doesn't prove it to be a Low 2-C structure. Which funny enough that DMC narrative never goes beyond Earth or rather planet scale

Flowery, for a world that is called Mirror Dimension ? It's reflection is a completely relevant matter, the other quotes about dimensions and being part of the DW (which is infinite in size) are only for support

DMC went beyond Earth for many times and all of them are currently accepted feats, that's just a big 2014 statement about DMC's scale

 

[Vietthai96]

Flowery, for a world that is called Mirror Dimension ? It's reflection is a completely relevant matter, the other quotes about dimensions and being part of the DW (which is infinite in size) are only for support

DMC went beyond Earth for many times and all of them are currently accepted feats, that's just a big 2014 statement about DMC's scale

1. i don't talk about the mirror part, but the evil part
2. Sorry but failed to see anything that goes beyond Earth with my 10 years of playing DMC, if you mean go to demon world then it is no

 

[ZAMIR890]

1. i don't talk about the mirror part, but the evil part
2. Sorry but failed to see anything that goes beyond Earth with my 10 years of playing DMC, if you mean go to demon world then it is no

bad argument I can not see anything that happens planetary dragon ball but nevertheless it is not planet level

 

[Vietthai96]

bad argument I can not see anything that happens planetary dragon ball but nevertheless it is not planet level

i'm.........................confuse, what do you mean, also why bring dragon ball here

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

1. i don't talk about the mirror part, but the evil part
2. Sorry but failed to see anything that goes beyond Earth with my 10 years of playing DMC, if you mean go to demon world then it is no

DMC has some other things than just games it has novels and manga maybe there are feats there, not sure tho since i have only played the games and haven't read the manga and novels

 

[Lightning_XXI]

1. i don't talk about the mirror part, but the evil part
2. Sorry but failed to see anything that goes beyond Earth with my 10 years of playing DMC, if you mean go to demon world then it is no

1. Well I didn't used the evil part, and I agree it isn't that relevant when it comes to the dimension's scale

2. Sorry, but if you don’t follow the guides, manga and novels, you will never see half of DMC's lore and backstory, this argument needs 10s of CRTs in order to work, because "beyond Earth DMC" is accepted on dozens of feats

 

[Lugh_Tuathe_Dé]

bad argument I can not see anything that happens planetary dragon ball but nevertheless it is not planet level

Beerus sneezed and destroyed a planet

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Guys this isn't about what level the feats are, this is another thing.

If you have problems with the tiers make a thread or complain in someone's wall, your turn to get debunked will come later.

 

[Vietthai96]

DMC has some other things than just games it has novels and manga maybe there are feats there, not sure tho since i have only played the games and haven't read the manga and novels

I'm aware of that, but if i'm remember correctly, the narrative never goes beyond Earth, if you mean other dimension then well yeah many

2. Sorry, but if you don’t follow the guides, manga and novels, you will never see half of DMC's lore and backstory, this argument needs 10s of CRTs in order to work, because "beyond Earth DMC" is accepted on dozens of feats

I mean narrative, not AP or something

This derail into something entirely different

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I mean narrative, not AP or something

This derail into something entirely different

Quite the opposite actually. The narrative in DMC games have always been cosmic. It forms the very foundation of lore and story.

Only games which are more grounded are DMC3 and DMC4....even then thats a stretch to say.

 

[Mister6ame6]

Forgive me, I wasn't clear on my statement, I meant type 4 and 8 immortality negation. Does Dante have any cutscenes of permanently killing these monsters? Because the lore literally says they resurrect again to hunt down their prey, meaning even if Dante "kills them", they can come back and fight again.

When Dante fight then, sometimes they are killed in one round and other times they resurrect immediately after being killed by Dante, needing him to kill then once again in a second round, that is the reason why we give then type 4 and 8 immortality negation, since sometimes, Dante only kill then one time and they never come back to mess with him again.

You have one scan saying it can null regen, the other doesn't remotely mention regen nulling, just that it can kill demons, and even so what demons are they exactly killing? The vessels they take over? Because you're not really killing them without affecting their souls. Not only that but 3 of the mainline games contradict them not needing their souls to live when the moment their soul is destroyed they die. Do you have any other showings of demons coming back even if their soul is destroyed? If so that can help with the regen, if this one statement is all you have then It's not helping your case when nothing else in the series backs this up.

There is one feat of a low tier demon getting resurrected when his soul are destroyed, Sanctus being resurrected after being killed by Dante thanks to the Order of the Sword, keep in mind that this is a feat from a low tier demon class, they already have feat of bringing demons from soul destruction by themselves, that's show that soul resurrection is not something new for DMC verse in mainline games.

That's... not what sealing is though. It just sucks your soul away and that's it, the mission description even says to reclaim the bridge before the soul is lost forever. So idk where you're getting the idea it's sealing. Also it's not a game mechanic thing when you have an entire cutscene on top of mission description flat out showing that Dante is being affected and will die if he fails the mission. The fact he actually dies in devil trigger should you fail is the cherry on top. Go to Sin Scythe paragraph 7. Also this isn't saying Dante's weaker than a demon fodder, this is just proof that especially Sparda heritage demons do not scale to high godly because any time there's showings of their souls being consumed or ripped, they all die instantly.

They only mention that his soul is going to be sucked and eventually disappears from existence, that don't means is going to kill Dante unless you have proof of that he is going to die in canon instead of being only game mech, just a reminder that game over screens are not canon, or otherwise, Dante dying by fodders or a building falling on him is legit. You have a point with the Sin Scythe, but considering this is DMC1, i willing to say that it was retconned along with others things in more modern games and extended canon materials. They actually have some proof of ''living'' without any trace of their existence left. They state in Deadly Fortune that Vergil ''is no longer in this world'', which make quite clear that they are talking about his souls also going poke in his fight with Dante in the process.

But do we remotely have any showings of demons flat out regenerating despite their souls being destroyed? Because that's kind of important for them to scale to this level of regen when we've shown no evidence for this. Also this especially is an antifeat for sparda heritage characters since they have anti feats for this.

There is Vergil that i said above and Mundus being stated to have supposed to been destroyed in his fight with Dante, which kind implies high godly regen there.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Lightning_XXI or Dante could have also sealed those demons away so he never gets chased by them. We don’t know the specifics on what happens to them so anything is viable until we have any legit statements of Dante permanently ending them.

@Mister6ame6 Do you have any clips of this? If so that can help validate the immortality negation.

Sanctus was killed by a bullet to the head, on top of that we know Dante can channel his demonic energy into his guns but he didn’t do that whatsoever in the cutscene, so that’s not exactly much? Especially when Sanctus is still technically a human and not a full blown demon.

it’s literally an entire cutscene of Dante looking like he’s dying and Jester explaining how the Neo generator is killing him by sucking his soul away, on top of it granting him infinite devil trigger as stated by Jester. So it’s not a game mechanic when that’s literally set up by the cutscene prior to the mission. We’d need proof that it’s been retconned though. Vergil not being there doesn’t exactly do a good job of elaborating as that can mean he’s in the demon world trying to pull himself together from his soul.

we only see his body get destroyed, and even then destroyed is a general and somewhat vague term. I can destroy a building but the remains of said building in the form of rubble still exists.

 

[RedReaper616]

@Lightning_XXI or Dante could have also sealed those demons away so he never gets chased by them. We don’t know the specifics on what happens to them so anything is viable until we have any legit statements of Dante permanently ending them.

@Mister6ame6 Do you have any clips of this? If so that can help validate the immortality negation.

Sanctus was killed by a bullet to the head, on top of that we know Dante can channel his demonic energy into his guns but he didn’t do that whatsoever in the cutscene, so that’s not exactly much? Especially when Sanctus is still technically a human and not a full blown demon.

it’s literally an entire cutscene of Dante looking like he’s dying and Jester explaining how the Neo generator is killing him by sucking his soul away, on top of it granting him infinite devil trigger as stated by Jester. So it’s not a game mechanic when that’s literally set up by the cutscene prior to the mission. We’d need proof that it’s been retconned though. Vergil not being there doesn’t exactly do a good job of elaborating as that can mean he’s in the demon world trying to pull himself together from his soul.

we only see his body get destroyed, and even then destroyed is a general and somewhat vague term. I can destroy a building but the remains of said building in the form of rubble still exists.

For Vergil's Regen, I believe it was stated he was completely destroyed.



And I remember there was another scan for it on the wiki when High Level Demons had their own stated abilities for people of "Demon King/God/Lord" title/tier. (Which essentially used the consistent feats of Pluto, Mundus, Abigail, Argosax, Urizen, etc.) to compile the most shared abilities and the abilities they'd logically have from upscaling, like Argosax having the power to end the Demon World since he himself was greater than DMC1 Mundus. It included Vergil's regen (different scan) to support Low Godly Regen for Mundus.

I'm looking for said second scan at the moment, but I can't find it.

 

[MrBallins]

Argosax can literally fuse the two universes just by existing (Which was repeatedly confirmed by DMC2 and its guidebooks and the 3142 Graphic Art Books to be genuinely happening, as the merger caused time paradoxes to happen left and right and was warping the human world itself into an unrecognizable mess).

Nice, how did he use this in combat? Did he do it through sheer energy and can he apply said energy in combat?

Being able to split universes through esoteric means does not mean that you can use this in combat unless displayed otherwise, and this is what pretty much all universal feats in DMC amount to

 

[Deadguy]

Nice, how did he use this in combat? Did he do it through sheer energy and can he apply said energy in combat?

Being able to split universes through esoteric means does not mean that you can use this in combat unless displayed otherwise, and this is what pretty much all universal feats in DMC amount to

This isn't the thread to discuss it and will only derail this thread more what it got derailed and it's already got accepted here so if you have a problem go and make your own thread for that

 

[Dienomite22]

Nice, how did he use this in combat? Did he do it through sheer energy and can he apply said energy in combat?

Being able to split universes through esoteric means does not mean that you can use this in combat unless displayed otherwise, and this is what pretty much all universal feats in DMC amount to

Ahem Nightmare ahem

 

[KLOL506]

Nice, how did he use this in combat? Did he do it through sheer energy and can he apply said energy in combat?

Being able to split universes through esoteric means does not mean that you can use this in combat unless displayed otherwise, and this is what pretty much all universal feats in DMC amount to

The derailing continues I see.

DID YOU NOT READ THE DAMN BLOGS (Here, here and here) OR THE REFUTATIONS FOR THIS EXACT ARGUMENT WE FACED IN THE G1 BLOG DEBUNK?

Also, look up something called "Demonic Energy".

And no, it was not esoteric splitting or fusing. It was literal ******* physical splitting and fusing. Argosax does the fusing with his own raw power.

Also ******* beautiful how you just ignored Pluto and Sparda both physically splitting the universe into two. (Pluto physically separated the OG universe into two with his spear and Sparda did it with his Devil Sword Sparda which contains a massive portion of his own power).

Or just literally refer to Dienomite's reply of Nightmare being able to destroy the Demon World.

For the last ******* time: STOP DERAILING, or we will report you.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

The derailing continues I see.

DID YOU NOT READ THE DAMN BLOGS (Here, here and here) OR THE REFUTATIONS FOR THIS EXACT ARGUMENT WE FACED IN THE G1 BLOG DEBUNK?

Also, look up something called "Demonic Energy".

And no, it was not esoteric splitting. It was literal ******* splitting. Argosax does this with his own raw power.

Also ******* beautiful how you just ignored Pluto and Sparda both physically splitting the universe into two.

Or just literally refer to Dienomite's reply.

For the last ******* time: STOP DERAILING, or we will report you.

C H I L L

 

[Theglassman12]

Calm the hell down now all of you guys and stop derailing the thread, if I see one more derailment this thread is getting moved to staff discussions.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

At this point it's just better to close and make a staff only thread then, cuz these people who skipped even the freaking Demonic Energy thread apparently are still going to revive from the Tier 6 DMC grave to question feats accepted years ago

Anyway

or Dante could have also sealed those demons away so he never gets chased by them. We don’t know the specifics on what happens to them so anything is viable until we have any legit statements of Dante permanently ending them.

As far as I know, Dante's sealing isn't something he can casually do, and against these enemies, he showed no effort whatsoever to nuke their resurrection, even if overtime, since as going by what Mister said, they can revive once against him but not after a second fall

it’s literally an entire cutscene of Dante looking like he’s dying and Jester explaining how the Neo generator is killing him by sucking his soul away, on top of it granting him infinite devil trigger as stated by Jester. So it’s not a game mechanic when that’s literally set up by the cutscene prior to the mission. We’d need proof that it’s been retconned though. Vergil not being there doesn’t exactly do a good job of elaborating as that can mean he’s in the demon world trying to pull himself together from his soul.

I don't know if you saw this before, but take a look at this:

恶魔猎手 人类自古以来就从事这种职业，危及他们的生命，因为在这个世界上没有任何武器可以伤害恶魔。 人类的聪明才智使猎人创造了伤害和杀死恶魔的最佳和唯一存在的方法，创造了用来自冥界的材料制造的奇怪武器。 以火攻火。

Demon hunters Humans have been engaged in this profession since ancient times, endangering their lives because there are no weapons in this world that can harm demons. Human ingenuity has led hunters to create the best and only method that exists to harm and kill demons, creating strange weapons made of materials from the underworld. Fight fire with fire.

Peak of Combat explained why Devil Hunters such as Lady can be effective against demons, and the information is actually very interesting: materials from the underworld can bypass their regeneration. The NeoGenerator is, of course, a demonic item with a very powerful ability, it being able to kill Dante isn't that much of a surprise

Now, thing is, this is DMC3 Dante, who later in the series fought Soul-Ending abilities far greater than this, and was fine. Even if we take this as a limit for his regeneration, it shouldn't fly past his DMC3 self. The quote also opens to us a interpretation to what tier of demons it scales, since, well:

All but the weakest demons do not care what they lose, their bodies, their names, their souls or everything, as long as they persist they can regenerate and continue fighting without rest.

So if we find out that Low Tiers are too featless for this, we can just apply to just who has a few feats to back it up, simple

 

[Deadguy]

I remember there is a statement in dmc5 novel that's demons can send their consciousness leaving everything behind them so that mean they can life without their souls

 

[Deadguy]

Found it

 

[SheevShezarrine]

The derailing continues I see.

DID YOU NOT READ THE DAMN BLOGS (Here, here and here) OR THE REFUTATIONS FOR THIS EXACT ARGUMENT WE FACED IN THE G1 BLOG DEBUNK?

Also, look up something called "Demonic Energy".

And no, it was not esoteric splitting or fusing. It was literal ******* physical splitting and fusing. Argosax does the fusing with his own raw power.

Also ******* beautiful how you just ignored Pluto and Sparda both physically splitting the universe into two. (Pluto physically separated the OG universe into two with his spear and Sparda did it with his Devil Sword Sparda which contains a massive portion of his own power).

Or just literally refer to Dienomite's reply of Nightmare being able to destroy the Demon World.

For the last ******* time: STOP DERAILING, or we will report you.

He's (KLOL) out of line, but he's right

 

[KLOL506]

Forgive me for the outburst, but I did what had to be done. The downplay was simply going out of control.

 

[KLOL506]

C H I L L

S o w w y ;-;

 

[Vietthai96]

Forgive me for the outburst, but I did what had to be done. The downplay was simply going out of control.

To be honest, everyone have their own way of view on matter so i think we should chill

 

[KLOL506]

To be honest, everyone have their own way of view on matter so i think we should chill

Tier 1? Maybe. That's why this thread was made (Even though I personally think it should have been left for later, the haxes and regen should have been dealt with first and foremost, since that's the easiest part).

But Tier 2? That's as solid as it gets.

So here's one final kind message for that type of stuff: Please, there should be no further derailment in this thread regarding Tier 2 DMC topics or opinions regarding why people think they're not Tier 2 material. Because that has been concluded years ago (Years before PoC ever came to be), the arguments against Tier 2 DMC have been debunked time and time again and they are not the subject of this specific thread. Thank you, and I hope all of us can cooperate with this in mind.

With that out of the way, I'm just gonna wait for Tony's response when he pulls it up.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Well I think they aren’t tier 2, just tier 1.

 

[KLOL506]

Well I think they aren’t tier 2, just tier 1.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

My response?

 

[Lightning_XXI]

As far as I know, Sevil has new arguments regarding souls

We should look forward to his post aswell, and hold our opinion on Tier 1 until that arrives

For now, what is on the OP that I believe it is accepted is:

- The Fallen Priest's Existence Erasure and immortality type 5

- Morning Banshee's Immortality types 4 & 8

- The Angel of Damnation's Curse Manipulation, Negation, and Healing

- Kanigam's Clairvoyance

- 2-C Sparda Inheritance Resistance to EE & Curse Manipulation and Immortality Negation Type 5 (Types 4 and 8 Negation are under discussion)

- And finally the book of demons

If anyone has problems with any of that, let's make it clear now

To be honest, everyone have their own way of view on matter so i think we should chill

A way of view that is debunked for years and ignores literally every material already linked here is simply not welcome on a CRT that is far beyond that matter, I agree that people should stay chill, of course, but I also understand that such an absurd insistence on denying the obvious eventually exhausts the patience of anyone, everyone here basing their "Disagree FRA" on denying "beyond Planet" DMC or "they don't use that for attack" should be well aware of that

In the end, doesn't really matter, a vote based on something not accepted isn't counted

 

[Dienomite22]

I agree on souls, regeneration and other abilities

 

[Sevil Natas]

for now i'm gonna redo the tier 1 stuff in another time for now focus on the other stuff.
souls would still get HDE tho

 

[KLOL506]

for now i'm gonna redo the tier 1 stuff in another time for now focus on the other stuff.
souls would still get HDE tho

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm still disagree with HDE soul, but people here decide to pull out the thing called Tiering FAQ rather than actually explaining the nature of those thing, other than that i will look at other hax in general in the meantime