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You work upside down or smth?
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DMC: A Rather Controversial Revision
- Thread starter Ningenron
- Start date
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Also on a note, Sonic Frontiers has two different dialogues in Japanese and English of the same cutscene (The End's Monologue) and we use them both.
What's the problem with DMC of all things?
What's the problem with DMC of all things?
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Doesn't Sonic have more context for that to be allowed?
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- Thread starter
- #44
It's the same as every language; context matters for them all. It's not something specific for Japanese.
You're just repeating stuff at this point.
1) the prophecy is as vague as possible and I already clarified it.
2) the OP already shows why it's talking about Sparda; they even have the same exact design. Stake isn't a spear. Cmon bruv.
3) you said it yourself he's not canon;
Not according to ur post above.
You know what, yah. You're right.
let's make "japanese DMC" a separate verse. That'd be totally dope.
Insulting isn't an argument.
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No? some of the stuff are just Japanese only.
You're the one who's not consistent with his argument
You done with the irrelevant whataboutism?
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I'm just pointing out a fact here.
People automatically disregard the English contextualization of the same game whenever Japanese is mentioned. I believe DMC had enough evidence on its own to support its claim either way.
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PoC is not main series, it is a Spin-off
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This is weird, but DMC1 was actually originally released in English. Kamiya did that with both DMC1 and Bayonetta 1; since the characters canonically speak English rather than Japanese he made them in English first.
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Japanese kanjis are meant to revolve around the context most of the time then others. One word can mean many other things.
Atleast stop putting snip on every reply soo I can understand what you are even talking about. But on the reply, you are the one making me repeat something as obvious as this.
- Vague as in? The thing that really is vague is how you are blending the entire context into eachother rather then as straight forward as the contents are given to us. That aside the ****ed up lore you are making up. Demon World doesn't "automatically" separate itself from one another and only Pluto is capable of such a feat at that point.
- Just for clarification, you're referring to that scan with the picture, correct?
- Yes from an alternate sense but that doesn't mean we can't use its content, it's nearly the same game hence why it was labeled as canon tbw.
Are you trolling?
What are even the implications you are trying to go through bruh? All I'm saying we should take both into consideration and make the most valid choice among them.
Stating fact is now an insult?
Suits your whole vibe at this point lowkey.
Soo?
I'm fairly consistent and anybody who actually went through the series knows that for a fact why and how.
Me pointing a fact out now make you pull whataboutism? Well that's to be expected.
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Which is hilarious how the OP is trying to sabotage this fact by inclusion of Japanese that contradicts the notion rather then supporting it.
Japanese DMC is translated from English version so that library statement has more priority then the Japanese-yada yada forced here.
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Tbh did anyone actually these posts by Tony and Kep here? It just details how the lore even explains Mundus usurping a Demon God prior to his ascension as a demon king. Tony even brings up a point where the separation and seals are different (Pluto would have one that fully separates them while Sparda's was more of keeping more powerful demons out).
Plus there was a legend here: "According to legend, a dark prince of the underworld mustered a great army of evil and slew the former god of evil. Then the overlord planned to break through the thin veil separating the underworld from the human world, uniting the land of eternal darkness with the world of light."
Plus there was a legend here: "According to legend, a dark prince of the underworld mustered a great army of evil and slew the former god of evil. Then the overlord planned to break through the thin veil separating the underworld from the human world, uniting the land of eternal darkness with the world of light."
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In regards to the issue of context for kanji, it is very true that direct translations often miss meaning. Different kanji with entirely different meanings and implications might translate to the same word or sentence. Grammar is also not a big thing in East Asian languages, but many words and even letters have different meanings, and small things, even apparent nonsense, can imply something more.
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That is not strictly true as I don’t see any evidence that will support this.
Additional to that, we got this part.
The creator of the DMC game series is Japanese therefore this ain’t entirely accurate as well
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- Thread starter
- #54
Thats how every language works.
The chain order makes it clear which part it is.
Vague as in, the fact that its entire context is based on that one single offhand mention in a library by some random prophet we don't even know anything about?
The creation myth disagrees with you; all it says is that a ray of light came and shone through, and the world eventually split in two. There's no mention of Pluto whatsoever; you're the one who's trying to insert him badly here.
You very much know what I'm talking about.
It's an alternate world that doesn't align with the main continuity, which by default disqualifies it. Furthermore, you yourself said it's canon in the same sense as the reboot, so it's moot.
Try to read what you actually argue before accusing others of trolling.
Repeatedly calling others' arguments a meme and pathetic is indeed an insult, to nobody's surprise.
You're a grown up man sonic; stop acting as a manchild.
That's cherry picking; you either stick with one or ignore the others; there's no in between.
You don't get to pick what you think is valid between them.
That dishonesty.
Chill down a bit right then Ben Shapiro.
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Guys, let's be honest. The fact that Peak of Combat introduced a certain "Pluto", who by "great coincidence" was mentioned in DMC 1 CLEARLY indicates that this is a separate character. Even if we treat PoC as a dubious canon (Although I noticed that in the threads we used PoC as an argument for why Lady has magical guns, and many refer to the indication that the Nightmare dimension surpasses space and time from the same game), the very fact of such a "coincidence" on the part of Capcom, even on an intuitive level, indicates that this is indeed a separate character, the FIRST King of Hell. And his design is THE SAME as in the manga.
Besides, I think DMC is the game in which the English version can also be considered canon. English is the official language for DMC, goddamn, literally canonical character conversations in cut scenes are in English. The Japanese were focusing on the Western audience. "Pluto" can't be a mistake or a misunderstanding. In fact, in the interview above, Kamiya replies that it's not Mundus. He doesn't even reply "It's a translation error" or anything like that, he replies quite specifically as if it was an existing name in the game's history.
It seems to me that those who believe the opposite are simply making a deal with their soul.
Besides, I think DMC is the game in which the English version can also be considered canon. English is the official language for DMC, goddamn, literally canonical character conversations in cut scenes are in English. The Japanese were focusing on the Western audience. "Pluto" can't be a mistake or a misunderstanding. In fact, in the interview above, Kamiya replies that it's not Mundus. He doesn't even reply "It's a translation error" or anything like that, he replies quite specifically as if it was an existing name in the game's history.
It seems to me that those who believe the opposite are simply making a deal with their soul.
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I think the back and forth between Ningenron and SuperSonicTL has run it's course.
@Agnaa do you have any thoughts on the OP? And specifically this point?
@Agnaa do you have any thoughts on the OP? And specifically this point?
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It is called localization because that is precisely what this is. Every series that ain’t made in North America get localized and translated into English. I don’t see this point to being convincing like at all.
Heck, the writers for the DMC game series are all Japanese when looking into this
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That's outright wrong:
On additional notes, Capcom is soo careful about itself that around 28:20-31:57, Rueben points out that one of the reasons he was doing mocap and voicing for Capcom was because JP actors (during the 2000’s) were not able to successfully present the characters as they did not sync the mannerisms and body language correctly before they did the translations, so it came out weird. So there is a mistreatment (on the JP). It’s not the English translations that are dropping the ball here, it’s the Japanese.
And finally, Dan Southworth wanted to change a few lines for DMC5, and the devs let him do it because they consider him to be “Vergil”, they wouldn't let him voice Dante in the future because to them, he is just Vergil.
Soo when you combine these factors with Pluto mentioning in localization, Novel mentioning the void being Mundus itself, DMC1 having on point English Menu and voice actors during its very first release, you all can see clearly why Japanese has no prioritization over English, they both should be used simultaneously as form of contents, this isn't any obscure Japanese manga verse we are discussing, this is a game company known for its western influence.
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He talked about the setting of the games which doesn’t help your point. It only strengthens the point that was originally developed and made in Japan.That's outright wrong:
On additional notes, Capcom is soo careful about itself that around 28:20-31:57, Rueben points out that one of the reasons he was doing mocap and voicing for Capcom was because JP actors (during the 2000’s) were not able to successfully present the characters as they did not sync the mannerisms and body language correctly before they did the translations, so it came out weird. So there is a mistreatment (on the JP). It’s not the English translations that are dropping the ball here, it’s the Japanese.
And finally, Dan Southworth wanted to change a few lines for DMC5, and the devs let him do it because they consider him to be “Vergil”, they wouldn't let him voice Dante in the future because to them, he is just Vergil.
Soo when you combine these facts with Pluto mentioning in localization, Novel mentioning the void being Mundus itself, DMC1 having on point English Menu and voice actors during its very first release, you all can see clearly why Japanese has no prioritization over English, they both should be used simultaneously as form of contents, this isn't any obscure Japanese manga verse we are discussing, this is a game company known for its western influence.
Also, that is from a translated interview regarding DMC in general so thanks for showing that at least
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Furthermore, he directly speaks in Japanese and needed a English Translator when it came to the development of DMC 5 as well.
Something that I noted here as well
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This is ultimately meaningless. It doesn't address that DMC is still made with the western attachments as the primary medium. Especially when you consider other stuff supporting it. Additionally, it doesn't stop that both mediums would be held as equally valid because Itsuno is closely tied in both spaces.
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- Thread starter
- #62
My argument is different so these post don't mean much for the topic.
I quite literally went thoroughly regarding this point; have nobody actually bothered to read the OP. The statement wasn't talking about literal separation in the manga.
I'm not arguing there's no former demon king. Besides, the "thin veil" is talking about when the light showed up and caused the worlds to be 2 so he wanted to reunite them.
Have you actually read your own links? The first one is using 引き裂く as a synonym for 離す which means, , isolate, disconnect, let go, keep apart, separate, etc. The nuance here is completely different.
And the second link shows im right with the most of the examples provided there;
Furthermore, a more legitimate and native dictionary site straight up says 引き裂く refers to 紙や布などに力を加えて、それを部分的または全体的に切れた状態にする (By applying force to paper, cloth, or other materials, it is made to be in a torn state, either partially or completely).
Not to mention the fact that the manga panel uses 裂ける, a synonym for 引き裂く, and it wasn't even talking about literal separation.
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Just to be clear: Aside from PoC, which has clear controversy around whether its canon, are there any official English translations of canon materials that reference a "Pluto?" Are there any Japanese scans from canon materials that actually reference a "Pluto?"
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Not japanese, Pluto is mentioned in a DMC 1 book
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Brady's guidebook mentions that Mundus has to slay a "former Demon God" and take his place as the ruler of Underworld.
Demon and Human World was separated in an era before Mundus was a thing let alone Sparda, further supported by DMC1 that mentions Pluto outright (the kanjis that were used refers to him in mythology but English localization gave context for it).
And finally that spike scan into the ground soo Earth and Heaven would never be torn apart again (something Ningen and Red arguing above)
And finally aside from PoC, there is no such mention of a character but one thing to note is that manga focuses on the era of Pluto itself while not outright mentioning him.
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- Thread starter
- #66
No, the only mention of "Pluto" on the main series is that prophecy translation in DMC1. That's it. No more No less. The rest is just assumptions people made.
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It's not just "assumption" you cannot explain who separated Demon and Human World in the first place.
And DMC1 has a background of English localization having similar priority as literally the voice was done in English to begin with.
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I am inclined to agree with the OP then. If the actual Japanese just clearly doesn't say Pluto, then that seems fairly cut and dry to me. I'm not persuaded by a guidebook or by PoC.
There's no reason it couldn't have simply been nature itself. You'd think that if there really were such a character, we would have more to go off of than a mistranslation from the first game. We've had more than a few cases where the early origins of the world are explained and there's no reference to this "Pluto."
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That light is referring to Human World what?
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Soo you are trying to outright deny both proves of his literal existence supported by an actual in-game statement?
Demon World literally will eat up Human World if not for the barrier between them. There is no point in assuming it is referring to the "nature itself" that's a logical fallacy and Pluto separating the worlds is more supported by lore then anything else within the series in contrast to Ningen trying to force a fanfic without any basis.
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"The world is born of darkness, unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals."
The scan does seem to indicate that the emergence of the "light" could be responsible, but it's worded in passive-voice (was split) without assigning responsibility. Still, if this "Pluto" character were responsible this is exactly where we'd expect him to be mentioned, but he is conspicuously absent.
No, I am saying that Ningenron has made a compelling case that the original Japanese doesn't say Pluto, and only other direct mention of such a character is of dubious canonicity.
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- Thread starter
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"But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split into two"
It's quite literally saying the light spawning caused the world to split; the fact "Pluto" isn't mentioned anywhere for such major event says it all.
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There is no mention of light in the entire manga let alone that panel aside from that which refers to Human World.
Him being not mentioned directly (even tho he is literally stated in the localized version right there as a contextual information given Capcom is very careful about its English content), the entire lore is pointing that Pluto is the only one that is capable of such a feat. Ningen had a point if there was logic behind it. I just want you to think about it.
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I know I've said this, but people keep assuming I'm making it up. DMC1 was explicitly done in English as the first language. Just because Kamiya is Japanese and it was released in Japan doesn't change that; the first voices were the English ones. When asked why he did it that way he said he did it because the characters canonically speak English. This is one of those rare occasions where a Japanese product has English as its primary language.
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"But even to that primordial existence, there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split into two"
It's quite literally saying the light spawning caused the world to split; the fact "Pluto" isn't mentioned anywhere for such major event says it all.
Why are you being dishonest? That mention of "came a ray of light" literally is referring to Human World right after that line.
My god the fact I'm having such a discussion is just...
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While PoC is non-canon in the sense that it's not the same timeline as the original games, the lore information provided in it should still be valid. And in the older version, this item, the "Chaos Boundary Stone", explicitly does state that the "first light" is what split the HW and DW.
And while I fully understand that this comes from the older version, which reasonably had its share of controversy around it due to scans of extremely questionable veracity, it's very easy to find videos of random players having this item in their inventory, like right here for example, so I think it should be fine to bring up.
And while I fully understand that this comes from the older version, which reasonably had its share of controversy around it due to scans of extremely questionable veracity, it's very easy to find videos of random players having this item in their inventory, like right here for example, so I think it should be fine to bring up.
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The manga does directly state that the light is the human world.
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Which isn’t a strong point to consider since voice acting doesn’t take first priority over the writing, direction, and development of the DMC gaming series.
Also VAs getting hired to do their job isn’t exactly what I consider that strong as well.
What’s next? Tekken? Even Tekken has people speaking in different languages so again I don’t find this as particularly strong.
